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Is this a form of tanking? Should it be allowed? (1 Viewer)

jeaton6

jeaton6

Footballguy
Many of my leagues use potential points to determine draft order for non-playoff teams.

I've observed some bottom feeders carry players not even in the league/choose to not IR players they could. This could be lazy management/reason why they are bottom feeders but could be more strategic to keep potential points down.

I rarely see contenders do the former and pretty much never see contenders do the latter. Should  this be allowed (let people manage teams how they choose) or addressed by the league?

 
jeaton6 said:
Many of my leagues use potential points to determine draft order for non-playoff teams.

I've observed some bottom feeders carry players not even in the league/choose to not IR players they could. This could be lazy management/reason why they are bottom feeders but could be more strategic to keep potential points down.

I rarely see contenders do the former and pretty much never see contenders do the latter. Should  this be allowed (let people manage teams how they choose) or addressed by the league?
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Yes it’s tanking. Unfortunately it’s a problem with these type of leagues.

 
Sounds like apathy.

I don’t play in “many leagues” anymore, but curious roster decisions by cellar dwellers is often nothing more than lack of effort. I’ve seen it almost every league, they may not be as crafty as you think. They get off to a bad start & pretty much give up.

In my longtime redraft we have an ethos that everyone takes pride in managing their teams all season. We’re all parents with busy careers but we often have had threads during the season talking about how competitive the league is right through Thanksgiving and beyond. Guys with 3-4 wins in December still working the wire & trying to knock off contenders fighting for a playoff spot. We celebrate & congratulate losing teams coming up with a big week late in the season - makes it fun that you’re not gonna have any walkover wins. It’s a rare thing in FF & one of the reasons I’ve been in the league since 1993.

 
To me Potential Points is nothing more than a stat you look at on Tuesday. It shouldn’t be used for anything meaningful imo.

 
This is why toilet bowl should determine draft order.  I don't buy the garbage that the worst teams deserve the earliest picks.  Help can be found all up and down the draft.  Kareem Hunt, OBJ, Michael Thomas - those just a few names.  If you want to improve your team, how about you quit tanking and make some pickups or trades?  Go find those $1 steals on the waiver wire - I got Tyreek Hill in all three of my dynasty leagues last year for $1.  Trade Larry Fitzgerald for a couple of pre-breakout Aaron Jones type lottery tickets.  I just grabbed one of my 16 man leagues at random - Tarik Cohen, Chris Carson, Alex Okafor, Hayes Pullard, Jon Bostic, Laquon Treadwell, Alex Collins, Kenny Stills.  Some of those guys are going to pan out. 

 
Unless you have a monetary consequence for finishing at the bottom, there zero reason not to do it. :shrug:  

I've see it used but potential points does nothing. 

 
Thanks to those who have provided answers to the question at hand and provided insights. To the others, the SP never fails to disappoint. 

:lmao:

 
I expanded our playoffs to 6 of 12 teams. At least this way more teams are in contention til the very end. Other than that I'm not really sure but I'm all ears.

 
I think PP can be useful in dynasty or deep-keeper leagues, where a significant portion of the roster can be retained from year to year, assuming that the league wants to give "weaker" teams higher draft picks (as the NFL does) for a better chance at improving.  The more players you can carry over, the less "benefit" there is to jettison productive players, and using PP can take away the incentive to just roll out bad starting lineups.

Even so, I agree with going after some lottery tickets as @Hankmoody mentioned.

I'm also assuming OP isn't referring to a redraft league.  There's no reason for one year's results to EVER drive the next years draft order if the rosters aren't carrying over.

 
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heckmanm said:
I think PP can be useful in dynasty or deep-keeper leagues, where a significant portion of the roster can be retained from year to year, assuming that the league wants to give "weaker" teams higher draft picks (as the NFL does) for a better chance at improving.  The more players you can carry over, the less "benefit" there is to jettison productive players, and using PP can take away the incentive to just roll out bad starting lineups.

Even so, I agree with going after some lottery tickets as @Hankmoody mentioned.

I'm also assuming OP isn't referring to a redraft league.  There's no reason for one year's results to EVER drive the next years draft order if the rosters aren't carrying over.
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Dynasty.  The key issue I'm trying to get at is team's not utilizing their IR and even full roster potential and whether the teams should be called out for doing this. There are teams carrying 3 IR players on active roster and short on their roster by another 3-4. So basically that's 6-7 slots that could contribute to increasing Potential Points that are not. 

These teams can do this and while they won't likely get a lotto ticket they significantly increase their odds of improving draft position which is worth much  more than some potential lotto tickets.

 
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Another issue I've seen with PP is tanking through roster construction. For example, a team fills their roster with basically one position (WR) and punts on fielding a competitive roster at every other position. 

PP is awful

 
I had one league address the "tanking" issue by using a point system for non playoff teams to determine the following years draft order..

Example: 12 team league,6 teams make playoffs. The 6 non playoff teams were given "points" based on their finish.

Team in 7th got 6 points,team in 8th got 5 points,team in 9th got 4 points,etc.

At the following years draft the points were turned into slips of paper in a hat to determine draft order.

Teams got the number of slips based on their points,so team in 7th place had better odds at getting a higher draft

pick than team in 12th. Worked pretty well as non playoff teams had incentive to stay active late in the season.

 
Rubi said:
I had one league address the "tanking" issue by using a point system for non playoff teams to determine the following years draft order..

Example: 12 team league,6 teams make playoffs. The 6 non playoff teams were given "points" based on their finish.

Team in 7th got 6 points,team in 8th got 5 points,team in 9th got 4 points,etc.

At the following years draft the points were turned into slips of paper in a hat to determine draft order.

Teams got the number of slips based on their points,so team in 7th place had better odds at getting a higher draft

pick than team in 12th. Worked pretty well as non playoff teams had incentive to stay active late in the season.
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This is somewhat how my dynasty league worked.

You got "points" for your regular season finish spot (last place got 12, 7th place got 7, etc).  And the non-playoff teams got "points" for their consolation bracket finish... 0, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 from last to first.  Based on playoff finish, the consolation teams could move as much as 4 spots in the draft order potentially.  The 6 Championship bracket teams were based solely on playoff finish. Teams that lost their playoff game would then face off in the game to sort out 5th vs 6th and 3rd vs 4th.  Winning that game meant you got the better draft spot, so they had something to care about winning even in those games.

 
The real problem is people want a perfect solution to "tanking" and there isn't. You deal with it on a case by case basis. 

 
Hankmoody said:
This is why toilet bowl should determine draft order.  I don't buy the garbage that the worst teams deserve the earliest picks.  Help can be found all up and down the draft.  Kareem Hunt, OBJ, Michael Thomas - those just a few names.  If you want to improve your team, how about you quit tanking and make some pickups or trades?  Go find those $1 steals on the waiver wire - I got Tyreek Hill in all three of my dynasty leagues last year for $1.  Trade Larry Fitzgerald for a couple of pre-breakout Aaron Jones type lottery tickets.  I just grabbed one of my 16 man leagues at random - Tarik Cohen, Chris Carson, Alex Okafor, Hayes Pullard, Jon Bostic, Laquon Treadwell, Alex Collins, Kenny Stills.  Some of those guys are going to pan out. 
Click to expand...
Dumbest rule ever.

:lmao:  @ OBJ. It went Watkins, Evans that year and then there was a group of 4 players that went depending on need or league type. 

Sankey,  Cooks, OBJ, Hyde. 

 
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To avoid tanking last year we changed up the rules for draft order.

Now, the top team in the standings NOT in the playoffs gets the #1 pick. The team behind them gets the 2nd pick, and so on. Playoff teams still draft last. So there's no more incentive to tank.

Worked like a charm.

 
Skoo said:
To avoid tanking last year we changed up the rules for draft order.

Now, the top team in the standings NOT in the playoffs gets the #1 pick. The team behind them gets the 2nd pick, and so on. Playoff teams still draft last. So there's no more incentive to tank.

Worked like a charm.
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Yeah, until borderline playoff teams start losing on purpose to end the year to get the top pick because they think they will get knocked out 1st week of the playoffs and would rather add the next Fournette to their borderline playoff team. 

Then the worst teams get pick 5 and 6 each round and don't get the talent the borderline playoff teams get. 

 
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msudaisy26 said:
Yeah, until borderline playoff teams start losing on purpose to end the year to get the top pick because they think they will get knocked out 1st week of the playoffs and would rather add the next Fournette to their borderline playoff team. 

Then the worst teams get pick 5 and 6 each round and don't get the talent the borderline playoff teams get. 
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Hasn't been a problem, probably because anyone with a chance at the playoffs has a good chance to win it all. 10-teamer with 4 teams making the playoffs, and it's keeper, not dynasty.

Plus you would have to do a pretty precise form of tanking to make sure you were gonna get the 1st pick.

Either way, it's worked out great for us, in years past we ended up with a few superteams and a few garbage teams at the end, which is just bad for the league.

 
It certainly could be a form of tanking. How to handle it gets tricky. I'm not sure I like the idea of the closest team not making the playoffs getting the #1 pick either. I think if I were to try something it might be to take all teams that miss the playoffs and put them into a list randomizer to determine draft order. I would think that would help with tanking.

 
jeaton6 said:
Many of my leagues use potential points to determine draft order for non-playoff teams.

I've observed some bottom feeders carry players not even in the league/choose to not IR players they could. This could be lazy management/reason why they are bottom feeders but could be more strategic to keep potential points down.

I rarely see contenders do the former and pretty much never see contenders do the latter. Should  this be allowed (let people manage teams how they choose) or addressed by the league?
Click to expand...
That is bad roster management that will hurt them in the long run so it's very shortsighted if they are doing it to tank. Honestly I don't think it's worth getting upset about, I doubt there's players on the wire that would make that much of a difference in potential outcomes of these games. I doubt these teams are losing by close enough margins that it makes a huge difference.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Dumbest rule ever.

:lmao:  @ OBJ. It went Watkins, Evans that year and then there was a group of 4 players that went depending on need or league type. 

Sankey,  Cooks, OBJ, Hyde. 
Click to expand...
OBJ went anywhere from 1.05-1.11 in the five rookie drafts I was in (Ebron went ahead of him in some) which I think was @Hankmoody 's point, I don't see what was funny with what he said. His point was that the 1.01-1.03 picks aren't the only way that a bad team can get better.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
OBJ went anywhere from 1.05-1.11 in the five rookie drafts I was in (Ebron went ahead of him in some) which I think was @Hankmoody 's point, I don't see what was funny with what he said. His point was that the 1.01-1.03 picks aren't the only way that a bad team can get better.
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They are the best way though. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
They are the best way though. 
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Sure. I don't agree with his overall premise about giving the toilet bowl winner the 1.01, but to each his own on that. But he was right that OBJ fell to at least 1.05 in most drafts. I also agree with you that people tend to get all worked up about tanking when, except for when it's obvious, there's really not all that much you can do.

I also think some people here may be using the word incorrectly - because there's a difference between gutting a roster to rebuild and "losing on purpose" which is what should be considered tanking. If people are seeing that in their leagues then they should be calling those owners out.

 
maf005 said:
Another issue I've seen with PP is tanking through roster construction. For example, a team fills their roster with basically one position (WR) and punts on fielding a competitive roster at every other position. 

PP is awful
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Wow that is even worse. Haven't seen that one at all. Has league made any effort to address?

 
Dr. Octopus said:
That is bad roster management that will hurt them in the long run so it's very shortsighted if they are doing it to tank. Honestly I don't think it's worth getting upset about, I doubt there's players on the wire that would make that much of a difference in potential outcomes of these games. I doubt these teams are losing by close enough margins that it makes a huge difference.
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Agreed it's poor roster management and while it doesn't really impact games won, it can definitely impact PP. My earlier example is that many teams carry IR players on active roster plus 3-4 open roster slots. So rather than having 24 players counting towards PP it's only 17. Ask anyone who plays Best Ball the difference they would see in points scored if they only had 17 vs 24 players for other teams. I'll bet it's significant. 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Sure. I don't agree with his overall premise about giving the toilet bowl winner the 1.01, but to each his own on that. But he was right that OBJ fell to at least 1.05 in most drafts. I also agree with you that people tend to get all worked up about tanking when, except for when it's obvious, there's really not all that much you can do.

I also think some people here may be using the word incorrectly - because there's a difference between gutting a roster to rebuild and "losing on purpose" which is what should be considered tanking. If people are seeing that in their leagues then they should be calling those owners out.
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This x 1000 and this is what I see 99 percent of the time and why I have such a problem with a toilet bowl for the top pick.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Dumbest rule ever.

:lmao:  @ OBJ. It went Watkins, Evans that year and then there was a group of 4 players that went depending on need or league type. 

Sankey,  Cooks, OBJ, Hyde. 
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I'm understanding your point since it seems your response is backing up what Hank is saying. According to you OBJ went anywhere between 1.03 and 1.06 (my leagues it was between 1.03 and 1.10), so his point is valid. You don't need the top pick to improve your roster and the team that loses in the quarter or semifinals can still end up with OBJ. In fact, I think the stats will show that picks 1.04 - 1.08 have almost as great a hit rate as the top 3 over the last decade.

 
Atomic Punk said:
I'm not sure I'm understanding your point since it seems your response is backing up what Hank is saying. According to you OBJ went anywhere between 1.03 and 1.06 (my leagues it was between 1.03 and 1.10), so his point is valid. You don't need the top pick to improve your roster and the team that loses in the quarter or semifinals can still end up with OBJ. In fact, I think the stats will show that picks 1.04 - 1.08 have almost as great a hit rate as the top 3 over the last decade.
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It goes against his other examples. I didn't do the work, but another FBG member did a while back and it showed that the top picks where way more valuable then middle of the road picks, he also said in his post that it is a 16 team league so it could be pick 7 - 10 depending if 6 or 8 teams make the playoffs, which makes it more insane.

 
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I hear you. I just don't think it is all that  :lmao:  worthy.

I would much rather have my integrity and play the best team possible and get the 1.05 then manage my roster in a way that gets me the 1.01. Maybe I'm over sensitive on the subject since I'm in a league that is discussing this very subject right now with one team that hasn't played a kicker all season, started only eight players (10 starter requirement) hasn't IR'd any injured players, started multiple players on byes or not even on an NFL roster, and will be a virtual lock for the 1.01.

i just don't think the slight improvement in probability between the 1.01 and the field is worth it. This past draft is a perfect example. Fournette went first in many drafts but Davis went there too in at least a third of mine. I'd much rather have Kamara/Dixon/Cook and my self respect than Davis .... and maybe even Fournette  :)

 
Atomic Punk said:
I hear you. I just don't think it is all that  :lmao:  worthy.

I would much rather have my integrity and play the best team possible and get the 1.05 then manage my roster in a way that gets me the 1.01. Maybe I'm over sensitive on the subject since I'm in a league that is discussing this very subject right now with one team that hasn't played a kicker all season, started only eight players (10 starter requirement) hasn't IR'd any injured players, started multiple players on byes or not even on an NFL roster, and will be a virtual lock for the 1.01.

i just don't think the slight improvement in probability between the 1.01 and the field is worth it. This past draft is a perfect example. Fournette went first in many drafts but Davis went there too in at least a third of mine. I'd much rather have Kamara/Dixon/Cook and my self respect than Davis .... and maybe even Fournette  :)
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Is that person involved in the discussions or ignoring?

 
No idea. He is a very delinquent owner. Not around much. Doesn't respond to trade offers. We called him out on it. He said it wasn't on purpose and then still failed to IR andpy players and started Sanders even though he was clearly listed as OUT last week.

I have no idea how you can forget to start a kicker 7 straight weeks but that's just me. I try to cut people slack since not everyone is as dedicated to this hobby as others but my tolerance only goes so far.

 
Atomic Punk said:
I hear you. I just don't think it is all that  :lmao:  worthy.

I would much rather have my integrity and play the best team possible and get the 1.05 then manage my roster in a way that gets me the 1.01. Maybe I'm over sensitive on the subject since I'm in a league that is discussing this very subject right now with one team that hasn't played a kicker all season, started only eight players (10 starter requirement) hasn't IR'd any injured players, started multiple players on byes or not even on an NFL roster, and will be a virtual lock for the 1.01.

i just don't think the slight improvement in probability between the 1.01 and the field is worth it. This past draft is a perfect example. Fournette went first in many drafts but Davis went there too in at least a third of mine. I'd much rather have Kamara/Dixon/Cook and my self respect than Davis .... and maybe even Fournette  :)
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If someone in my leagues didnt play a kicker for 2 weeks in a row they wouldn’t be in my league any more.

 
I'm in several leagues with a guy who is normally a super stand up and high character guy. But this year in every league he is completely tanking and dumping players for picks etc. We have rules in place to penalize tankers who sit studs for scrubs or leave in bye week players. What we do is move picks back 1 spot for a taking lineup. Unfortunately this owner has traded enough players away to have no combination of players good enough to win. He's determined to get Barkley everywhere. 

I happen to have several picks from owners that will be very high... As in#1 overall if not for this owner tanking. I'm 7-0 and can afford a loss and don't mind getting hit with this penalty on my pick. I play him this week! Am I crazy to counteract his tanking by setting a dud lineup last minute to lose, take a penalty, and force him to move up? 

Feels greasy but might teach him a lesson.

 
slackjawedyokel said:
I'm in several leagues with a guy who is normally a super stand up and high character guy. But this year in every league he is completely tanking and dumping players for picks etc. We have rules in place to penalize tankers who sit studs for scrubs or leave in bye week players. What we do is move picks back 1 spot for a taking lineup. Unfortunately this owner has traded enough players away to have no combination of players good enough to win. He's determined to get Barkley everywhere. 

I happen to have several picks from owners that will be very high... As in#1 overall if not for this owner tanking. I'm 7-0 and can afford a loss and don't mind getting hit with this penalty on my pick. I play him this week! Am I crazy to counteract his tanking by setting a dud lineup last minute to lose, take a penalty, and force him to move up? 

Feels greasy but might teach him a lesson.
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No, because he isn't tanking he is gutting his team and rebuilding. It might not be the way you would do it, but there is nothing wrong with it, what you are proposing to do is much worse.

 
msudaisy26 said:
No, because he isn't tanking he is gutting his team and rebuilding. It might not be the way you would do it, but there is nothing wrong with it, what you are proposing to do is much worse.
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this, if you did this in my league we'd have to consider giving you the boot.  Or at least penalize your other picks instead of your 7-0 team's pick. 

Put it this way, we'd penalize whatever picks benefited by your tanking. 

 
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