Hip drop tackle: what is it? Should it be a penalty? Will the refs even be able to identify and call it correctly? (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyU]

I don't know. Intent is difficult to ascertain

That’s my entire point and why this should not be a rule.

But you could put that into just about penalty. Did mean for helmet to helmet or did he just miss his target? Did he mean to trip him or did he just happen stick his leg in the wrong spot at the wrong time? In the end, intent doesn't really matter. Did you trip the guy or not? Just like in life. I didn't mean to hit a pedestrian with my car or I didn't mean to knock over that vase at the store. It doesn't mean that relieves me of the consequences of that.

Mr. Jones, why did you shoot him 6 times? “I was cleaning my gun when it suddenly went off”.

Oh well then, since you didn't mean to shoot him, we are just going let you walk free. Have a great day and just be a little more careful next time.

I guess you missed the funny part of that.

 

[Gruden's Keyboard]

Some of you boomers guys make convincing arguments, I'm a football purist now.

Let's bring back horse-collar tackles!!!

Let's not have rules protecting defenseless receivers...feed him the screws and let him leave in an ambulance!!!

Don't protect the punter's plant leg...I want to see torn knees and compound fractures!

The facemask is a part of the uniform, it should be fair game!!!

A suplex is just a really good tackle!!!

If you can stiff arm someone, why can't you Sparta kick someone's helmet like Antonio Brown did!!!

Let's eliminate all QB protection!!!
I want to see star QBs hit low strategically...Brady getting his knee shredded in the first game of the season is great for players, owners, and advertisers! Watching low scoring games with whoever can hobble onto the field is how real football is played!!!

 

[Ilov80s]

I don't know. Intent is difficult to ascertain

That’s my entire point and why this should not be a rule.

But you could put that into just about penalty. Did mean for helmet to helmet or did he just miss his target? Did he mean to trip him or did he just happen stick his leg in the wrong spot at the wrong time? In the end, intent doesn't really matter. Did you trip the guy or not? Just like in life. I didn't mean to hit a pedestrian with my car or I didn't mean to knock over that vase at the store. It doesn't mean that relieves me of the consequences of that.

Mr. Jones, why did you shoot him 6 times? “I was cleaning my gun when it suddenly went off”.

Oh well then, since you didn't mean to shoot him, we are just going let you walk free. Have a great day and just be a little more careful next time.

I guess you missed the funny part of that.

In my defense, it's very difficult to find.

Just teasing. Was it a line from a movie or something?

 

[JohnnyU]

Some of you boomers guys make convincing arguments, I'm a football purist now.

Let's bring back horse-collar tackles!!!

Let's not have rules protecting defenseless receivers...feed him the screws and let him leave in an ambulance!!!

Don't protect the punter's plant leg...I want to see torn knees and compound fractures!

The facemask is a part of the uniform, it should be fair game!!!

A suplex is just a really good tackle!!!

If you can stiff arm someone, why can't you Sparta kick someone's helmet like Antonio Brown did!!!

Let's eliminate all QB protection!!!
I want to see star QBs hit low strategically...Brady getting his knee shredded in the first game of the season is great for players, owners, and advertisers! Watching low scoring games with whoever can hobble onto the field is how real football is played!!!

Jesus

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't know. Intent is difficult to ascertain

That’s my entire point and why this should not be a rule.

But you could put that into just about penalty. Did mean for helmet to helmet or did he just miss his target? Did he mean to trip him or did he just happen stick his leg in the wrong spot at the wrong time? In the end, intent doesn't really matter. Did you trip the guy or not? Just like in life. I didn't mean to hit a pedestrian with my car or I didn't mean to knock over that vase at the store. It doesn't mean that relieves me of the consequences of that.

Mr. Jones, why did you shoot him 6 times? “I was cleaning my gun when it suddenly went off”.

Oh well then, since you didn't mean to shoot him, we are just going let you walk free. Have a great day and just be a little more careful next time.

I guess you missed the funny part of that.

In my defense, it's very difficult to find.

Just teasing. Was it a line from a movie or something?

No just some joke I heard many moons ago.

 

[Ilov80s]

I don't know. Intent is difficult to ascertain

That’s my entire point and why this should not be a rule.

But you could put that into just about penalty. Did mean for helmet to helmet or did he just miss his target? Did he mean to trip him or did he just happen stick his leg in the wrong spot at the wrong time? In the end, intent doesn't really matter. Did you trip the guy or not? Just like in life. I didn't mean to hit a pedestrian with my car or I didn't mean to knock over that vase at the store. It doesn't mean that relieves me of the consequences of that.

Mr. Jones, why did you shoot him 6 times? “I was cleaning my gun when it suddenly went off”.

Oh well then, since you didn't mean to shoot him, we are just going let you walk free. Have a great day and just be a little more careful next time.

I guess you missed the funny part of that.

In my defense, it's very difficult to find.

Just teasing. Was it a line from a movie or something?

No just some joke I heard many moons ago.

Gotcha, I thought maybe I missed a tv show or something. But yeah it's a good defense for why intent is irrelevant. Of course players are going to say they didn't mean to do it.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I don't know. Intent is difficult to ascertain

That’s my entire point and why this should not be a rule.

But you could put that into just about penalty. Did mean for helmet to helmet or did he just miss his target? Did he mean to trip him or did he just happen stick his leg in the wrong spot at the wrong time? In the end, intent doesn't really matter. Did you trip the guy or not? Just like in life. I didn't mean to hit a pedestrian with my car or I didn't mean to knock over that vase at the store. It doesn't mean that relieves me of the consequences of that.

Yeah, but unlike helmet to helmet, this can happen on pretty much any tackle. The mere act of trying to tackle a player who's trying to not be tackled puts the opposing players in position for this to happen.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Some of you boomers guys make convincing arguments, I'm a football purist now.

Let's bring back horse-collar tackles!!!

Let's not have rules protecting defenseless receivers...feed him the screws and let him leave in an ambulance!!!

Don't protect the punter's plant leg...I want to see torn knees and compound fractures!

The facemask is a part of the uniform, it should be fair game!!!

A suplex is just a really good tackle!!!

If you can stiff arm someone, why can't you Sparta kick someone's helmet like Antonio Brown did!!!

Let's eliminate all QB protection!!!
I want to see star QBs hit low strategically...Brady getting his knee shredded in the first game of the season is great for players, owners, and advertisers! Watching low scoring games with whoever can hobble onto the field is how real football is played!!!

Literally no one is saying any of those things. Not a single one. Reading through the posts, not one person has implied any one of these things either.

This is a pure fiction. It's also a logical fallacy, but I won't get into that.

Maybe focus on the things people are actually saying about this alleged hip drop tackle, and not the things you want to allege they're implying about the other rules that have been created for unrelated types of illegal plays. It would make for a better discussion. Just a suggestion.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Gotcha, I thought maybe I missed a tv show or something. But yeah it's a good defense for why intent is irrelevant. Of course players are going to say they didn't mean to do it.

while undoubtedly true, I believe a strong case can be made that the vast majority of this type of tackle is unintentional. There are 3 things at play with every tackle. 1. Defense trying to tackle. 2. Offense trying to not be tackled/get YAC, and 3. Gravity.

It's really difficult to avoid any of those three things when talking about football & tackling.

That said, I fully understand that this can be intentional. And I've seen what appears to be an intentional hip drop tackle. And I've seen hip drop tackles that don't result in injury many, many times.

So it kinda feels like after the fact legislation of a play based on results. If the offensive dude got hurt, it was a bad tackle. If the offensive dude didn't get hurt, clean tackle.

Makes me wonder why there are not rules proposed every year to protect defensive players. They get hurt too. I've seen plenty of "dirty" play by OL trapping & holding a LB who then gets rolled up on. Somehow that's never called a penalty, and no one is lobbying to stop it. Just another thought.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Makes me wonder why there are never rules to protect defensive players. They get hurt too. I've seen plenty of "dirty" play by OL trapping & holding a LB who then gets rolled up on. Somehow that's never called a penalty, and no one is lobbying to stop it. Just another thought.

There are several.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Makes me wonder why there are never rules to protect defensive players. They get hurt too. I've seen plenty of "dirty" play by OL trapping & holding a LB who then gets rolled up on. Somehow that's never called a penalty, and no one is lobbying to stop it. Just another thought.

There are several.

Sorry, yes you’re correct. I meant why we don’t see proposals every year like we do with offensive players. My brain words didn’t all come out through my fingers. Edited my post for clarity.

 

[ghostguy123]

Allow horse collar tackles, and eliminate hip drop tackles.
Are the horse collar tackles less dangerous?

 

[Summer Wheat]

I almost feel like it needs to be a thing the refs on the field can't call but refs in the booth or refs in NY can review and if ruled illegal the player who did it is removed from the game or suspended the next week. I agree with @need2know that the refs are already looking at too much and struggling to handle it.

I don`t want any more delays in play though. I saw Hutch do 3-4 hip drops last year but by chance he did not land on the legs of the runner. If by chance he caught a foot should he be suspended? I don`t want that.

Yeah that’s what I am saying. You don’t stop the game. Someone other than the refs in the game review it and when they come to a decision, they either call in and the refs eject the player or it’s decided by the league on Tuesday and the player gets suspended for the next game.

What if it’s an unintentional hip drop?

LB A tackles receiver B.
Player A has his arms around B’s hips.

Receiver B tries for YAC, dragging LB A behind him.

LB A’s only option is gravity, going dead weight while still holding B’s hips.

Player B turns awkwardly upfield going for those yards, A lands on his foot, dislocating it.

Does player A get suspended & fined?

If so, congratulations. Tackle football is dead. Put flags on them and rename the sport.

I don't know. Intent is difficult to ascertain. I am not even in favor of a rule outlawing it. I am just saying, if they decide to outlaw it then this is how I would want it done. Don't add more to the refs plate, don't add more stoppages to the game, etc.

This will be much more difficult to call than a horse collar.

If runner is going for a first down and defender is behind the defense wants to stop forward progress. So they have to pull back, then in turn their own body is thrust down.

These are not intentional..they are just football tackles. Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

 

[32 Counter Pass]

What I find ironic is the player's union negotiated reduced contact in OTAs and practice because of concern for player safety. The answer was the hip drop, which is easier to coach. If players could be coached proper tackling techniques this likely wouldn't be an issue.

I am not against making the game safer, but I think we have passed the tipping point in teaching proper tackling technique.

That said, my bigger concern, as mentioned previously, is it is another rule in the rule book. No! It is already impossible to referee the NFL game. There are too many rules. We see the refs botch calls every weekend. It isn't because they are all incompetent, although some definitely are.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

I’d love to see a full list of hip drop tackles and the result/injury rate.

It would be even more interesting to see a list of all other tackles and the result/injury rate so we could compare the two.

What would you estimate the ratio to be for hip drop vs all other types of tackles?

What’s an unacceptable variance? Greater than 3%?

I’d love to see a data driven proposal to know if this is actually even a problem that needs to be addressed before putting in another rule to confuse the refs & players.

 

[Gold Fox]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

I’d love to see a full list of hip drop tackles and the result/injury rate.

It would be even more interesting to see a list of all other tackles and the result/injury rate so we could compare the two.

What would you estimate the ratio to be for hip drop vs all other types of tackles?

What are the other types of tackles called? I only know the names of the notorious tackles: clothesline, horse collar, hip drop,

I guess there’s also shoestring…

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

I’d love to see a full list of hip drop tackles and the result/injury rate.

It would be even more interesting to see a list of all other tackles and the result/injury rate so we could compare the two.

What would you estimate the ratio to be for hip drop vs all other types of tackles?

What’s an unacceptable variance? Greater than 3%?

I’d love to see a data driven proposal to know if this is actually even a problem that needs to be addressed before putting in another rule to confuse the refs & players.

There’s the often-quoted study that said this form of tackle is 20-25 times more likely to cause injury. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profo...-tackles-is-20-25-times-that-of-other-tackles

I don’t know the value of that study and have not looked in detail. I’ve also read a review of the past two seasons that found there are very few tackles that would be flagged. It’s not a common occurrence. I personally don’t think it’s very confusing. It’s not a normal looking tackle and you pretty much have to be intentional about it to execute a hip drop. Agree that refs might have some initial difficulty with it.

 

[KellysHeroes]

I'm aligned with Troy Vincent on this:

“I’ve been in that position before as a leader of the Player’s Association involved in many of the meetings,” NFL executive V.P. of football operations Troy Vincent said during a Thursday conference call with reporters regarding the proposal rule changes. “There’s always going to be resistance from the player when you talk about removing things. There’s going to be resistance, and I respect that. There was resistance in removing the blindside block. There was resistance removing the crackback block. There was resistance removing the attack block. There was resistance removing the horse collar. Again, I mentioned it earlier in the opening, durability and availability is the number one and two aspect for any professional athlete and particularly with football players. I have a technique that causes 20 to 25-percent injury rate when it occurs. I respect their position, but as gatekeepers of the game . . . this is something that we have to remove.

... And the chop block, and lowering the helmet, and landing on quarterbacks and...

I'd imagine many of you had grandfathers bemoaning the fact that Deacon Jones couldn't give people concussions with his head slap move anymore.

Anyway, it's probably misnamed; it's not the general dropping off hips that's the problem. The problem is the dropping of full body weight into the backside of a guy's legs when engaged in the act of tackling.

I get it but playing at game speed trying to tackle guys from behind who don`t want to go down it will be difficult. There are awkward tackles from all angles every game.

Might make it a two part rule. No bodyweight dropped, and runners must give themselves up and go down if engaged from behind to prevent possible injury.

I don't mean to parse your words too much but there's lots of things that are difficult that aren't counterbalanced by allowing something dangerous. It's difficult for running backs to block the knees of rushing, bigger d-linemen/linebackers, for instance.

There are mismatches of many types on the football field. I don't think you rectify that by allowing things that cause more injuries.

The NFL and safety has always been a misnomer.

Artificial turf causes way more season/career ending injuries than the so called hip drop, but that will never be addressed because it makes the fields looks cleaner and the indoor venues. There have been numerous studies done on this. We have all seen many players blow their knees our without being touched on turf.



Studies found that non-contact (ACL) and (PCL) tears occurred almost 3 times as often on turf than on grass.

Even Athletes playing at lower levels experienced anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) tears almost two times more often on turf than they did on grass.

changing the turf would cost money, easier to fine the defensive players for doing their job and continue to raise the amount of points scored

 

[Summer Wheat]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

I’d love to see a full list of hip drop tackles and the result/injury rate.

It would be even more interesting to see a list of all other tackles and the result/injury rate so we could compare the two.

What would you estimate the ratio to be for hip drop vs all other types of tackles?

What’s an unacceptable variance? Greater than 3%?

I’d love to see a data driven proposal to know if this is actually even a problem that needs to be addressed before putting in another rule to confuse the refs & players.

There’s the often-quoted study that said this form of tackle is 20-25 times more likely to cause injury. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profo...-tackles-is-20-25-times-that-of-other-tackles

I don’t know the value of that study and have not looked in detail. I’ve also read a review of the past two seasons that found there are very few tackles that would be flagged. It’s not a common occurrence. I personally don’t think it’s very confusing. It’s not a normal looking tackle and you pretty much have to be intentional about it to execute a hip drop. Agree that refs might have some initial difficulty with it.

The hip drop is a reaction play, not some premeditated act. I doubt the HC says "Defense Lets get after them today with some good hip drop tackles" Really doubt the defenders even know they are doing it, they are just trying to stop the runners forward progress.

 

[Da Guru]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

I’d love to see a full list of hip drop tackles and the result/injury rate.

It would be even more interesting to see a list of all other tackles and the result/injury rate so we could compare the two.

What would you estimate the ratio to be for hip drop vs all other types of tackles?

What’s an unacceptable variance? Greater than 3%?

I’d love to see a data driven proposal to know if this is actually even a problem that needs to be addressed before putting in another rule to confuse the refs & players.

There’s the often-quoted study that said this form of tackle is 20-25 times more likely to cause injury. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profo...-tackles-is-20-25-times-that-of-other-tackles

I don’t know the value of that study and have not looked in detail. I’ve also read a review of the past two seasons that found there are very few tackles that would be flagged. It’s not a common occurrence. I personally don’t think it’s very confusing. It’s not a normal looking tackle and you pretty much have to be intentional about it to execute a hip drop. Agree that refs might have some initial difficulty with it.

Also proven that artificial turf has 35-40% more knee and ankle injuries than grass fields. Thats a well know fact, not a rumor. Also the game is faster on turf that leads to more violent collisions. Should this be a topic for the rules committee?

Non contact injuries on turf.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

I’d love to see a full list of hip drop tackles and the result/injury rate.

It would be even more interesting to see a list of all other tackles and the result/injury rate so we could compare the two.

What would you estimate the ratio to be for hip drop vs all other types of tackles?

What’s an unacceptable variance? Greater than 3%?

I’d love to see a data driven proposal to know if this is actually even a problem that needs to be addressed before putting in another rule to confuse the refs & players.

There’s the often-quoted study that said this form of tackle is 20-25 times more likely to cause injury. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profo...-tackles-is-20-25-times-that-of-other-tackles

I don’t know the value of that study and have not looked in detail. I’ve also read a review of the past two seasons that found there are very few tackles that would be flagged. It’s not a common occurrence. I personally don’t think it’s very confusing. It’s not a normal looking tackle and you pretty much have to be intentional about it to execute a hip drop. Agree that refs might have some initial difficulty with it.

Also proven that artificial turf has 35-40% more knee and ankle injuries than grass fields. Thats a well know fact, not a rumor. Also the game is faster on turf that leads to more violent collisions. Should this be a topic for the rules committee?

Non contact injuries on turf.

Good topic for a separate thread I guess?

 

[Max Power]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

 

[Summer Wheat]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

Andrews just looked like a regular tackle from defender trying to stop a TD, also his foot got caught in the turf and that does not help matters. What we have to remember is we watch replays slowed down and analyze. The defenders are playing at fast game speed and reacting in a split second and trying to stop the runner any way possible.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

Andrews just looked like a regular tackle from defender trying to stop a TD, also his foot got caught in the turf and that does not help matters. What we have to remember is we watch replays slowed down and analyze. The defenders are playing at fast game speed and reacting in a split second and trying to stop the runner any way possible.

Completely agree with this. It was as much on Andrews as it was on the defender. That example is why this rule would be awful.

 

[Ilov80s]

Sounds like it is official, the hip drop tackle has been banned. I am sure this will go so smoothly.

 

[3C's]

This is what the NRL(Rugby) considers elements of a hip drop tackle, which they have also banned because of injury concerns. It's not just letting your weight fall as you grab a runner in order to get them to the ground, it's also adding the body twist with the intent of falling on the runners legs that makes the technique inherently more prone to injury.

Normal tackle technique trains you to become dead weight but does not incorporate a body twist onto the legs. That's the new part.

Please don't bring reason in here...

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

I disagree with your view of the Andrews tackle, in which the defender swings his hips and drops down on the ball-carrier's legs from behind. Its not a normal tackle technique and not hard to see. The hip drop is obviously an extremely effective technique, but defenders also have the option of hitting and wrapping up.

Being "dirty" has nothing to do with it. No one is claiming an intent to injure. The horsecollar wasn't considered a dirty play and was in many cases the only way for a smaller defender to bring down a ball-carrier from behind, but it was deemed dangerous and players have adjusted.

I personally don't care whether the hip drop is banned or not, but I don't agree with many of the takes here which seem overly dramatic. I think this will be a minor issue if implemented and much of the discussion now is mountain/molehill stuff that is common this time of year.

 

[Terpman22]

Sounds like it is official, the hip drop tackle has been banned. I am sure this will go so smoothly.

"But why do the officials blow so many calls"

Maybe, just maybe they should stop, perhaps just for 1 offseason, installing new rules or how to call them every single offseason.

Just last year: "Hey we are changing how kickoffs go"
Now this year "Hey we are changing how kickoffs go...again"

I hate it

 

[Max Power]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

I disagree with your view of the Andrews tackle, in which the defender swings his hips and drops down on the ball-carrier's legs from behind. Its not a normal tackle technique and not hard to see. The hip drop is obviously an extremely effective technique, but defenders also have the option of hitting and wrapping up.

Being "dirty" has nothing to do with it. No one is claiming an intent to injure. The horsecollar wasn't considered a dirty play and was in many cases the only way for a smaller defender to bring down a ball-carrier from behind, but it was deemed dangerous and players have adjusted.

I personally don't care whether the hip drop is banned or not, but I don't agree with many of the takes here which seem overly dramatic. I think this will be a minor issue if implemented and much of the discussion now is mountain/molehill stuff that is common this time of year.

I think the Andrews tackle was a normal tackle. Wilson's upper body made contact with Andrews midsection which stopped his upper body moving forward. Wilson was mid dive when the contact was made and his lower body was going to the ground behind the contact. Andrews just happened to have a foot back there which was trapped. I don't see that as a case of Wilson swinging his lower body onto Andrews legs.

I'd have to read the definition again, but I'm very concerned if that play starts resulting in unnecessary roughness penalties. From what I recall the infraction is wrapping up and "unweighting" yourself and landing on the lower body.

 

[3C's]

x.com

twitter.com

Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

 

[Terpman22]

x.com

twitter.com

Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

So they did a study on this? Can we see the study?

Oh wait, the NFL just made this up? Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

 

[Max Power]

x.com

twitter.com

Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

So they did a study on this? Can we see the study?

Oh wait, the NFL just made this up? Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

The NFL has claimed there were 105 hip drop tackles over the last two seasons out of 20,000 tackles

 

[CletiusMaximus]

x.com

twitter.com

Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

So they did a study on this? Can we see the study?

Oh wait, the NFL just made this up? Shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

The NFL has claimed there were 105 hip drop tackles over the last two seasons out of 20,000 tackles

This is what I've seen as well - currently it happens about 50 times each season based on someone's video review. Above all, this goes to show how incredibly popular the NFL product is that we can't stop talking about it year round and minor non-issues like this generate massive amounts of interaction and debate.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

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Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

I’m deeply skeptical of this claim.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

I disagree with your view of the Andrews tackle, in which the defender swings his hips and drops down on the ball-carrier's legs from behind. Its not a normal tackle technique and not hard to see. The hip drop is obviously an extremely effective technique, but defenders also have the option of hitting and wrapping up.

Being "dirty" has nothing to do with it. No one is claiming an intent to injure. The horsecollar wasn't considered a dirty play and was in many cases the only way for a smaller defender to bring down a ball-carrier from behind, but it was deemed dangerous and players have adjusted.

I personally don't care whether the hip drop is banned or not, but I don't agree with many of the takes here which seem overly dramatic. I think this will be a minor issue if implemented and much of the discussion now is mountain/molehill stuff that is common this time of year.

I watched that play way too many times. It’s the entire basis for my argument against the HDT rule.

Even the NFLPA is against the rule.

Had Andrews not 1. Attempted to turn upfield and get more YAC, and 2. Not had his foot caught in the turf behind him when he did so, 3. The tackler would not have landed on his foot. When the contact was initiated it was a textbook clean tackle - wrapped around Andrews waist, attempting to bring him down at speed from the only angle he had. Had the tackle not been attempted, it’s a walk in TD.

That Andrews was injured as a result of the play is an unfortunate, but benign outcome. There was no intent to hurt Andrews, it most certainly was not a dirty tackle, and one could argue that Andrews should have given himself up rather than put himself in a position to get hurt. Obviously that’s silly because Andrews is going to try to score there, but the point is that his injury was no one’s “fault”, so making that the poster child for this bad rule seems misguided at best.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

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Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

I’m deeply skeptical of this claim.

Well sure. Confirmation bias is a thing.

I will agree with you on one thing - the Andrews tackle really isn't the best example of this rule.

No use clutching pearls over this. It's going to be a rule, seldom enforced, and not nearly the game changer the detractors are painting it to be.

 

[belljr]

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Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

I’m deeply skeptical of this claim.

Well sure. Confirmation bias is a thing.

I will agree with you on one thing - the Andrews tackle really isn't the best example of this rule.

No use clutching pearls over this. It's going to be a rule, seldom enforced, and not nearly the game changer the detractors are painting it to be.

I just worry it becomes the body weight thing all over again.

We know the intent of that rule, scooping up a QB and basically lifting him up and "body slam" him with all your weight on top. 1000% penalty.

But now it gets called when a guy literally runs through a QB and happens to land on him. Even if they don't wrap and fall on him it gets called.

Similar to the QB slide.... QBs are taking advantage of this rule now because Defense is screwed when making a decision. If a QB slides late I think refs should be a little more lenient.

Its just the game by game different interpretation per each ref that drives me bonkers!!!!!

I get the intent of the rules but they are never enforced uniformly/correctly

 

[Andy Dufresne]

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twitter.com

Once a game and increasing. The "this is how we/they always did it" is not the case. This is a technique that never existed until recently.

I’m deeply skeptical of this claim.

Well sure. Confirmation bias is a thing.

I will agree with you on one thing - the Andrews tackle really isn't the best example of this rule.

No use clutching pearls over this. It's going to be a rule, seldom enforced, and not nearly the game changer the detractors are painting it to be.

I just worry it becomes the body weight thing all over again.

We know the intent of that rule, scooping up a QB and basically lifting him up and "body slam" him with all your weight on top. 1000% penalty.

But now it gets called when a guy literally runs through a QB and happens to land on him. Even if they don't wrap and fall on him it gets called.

Similar to the QB slide.... QBs are taking advantage of this rule now because Defense is screwed when making a decision. If a QB slides late I think refs should be a little more lenient.

Its just the game by game different interpretation per each ref that drives me bonkers!!!!!

I get the intent of the rules but they are never enforced uniformly/correctly

The bolded: Not really, IMO. The intent was to not have a 350lb lineman crash down on a 200-ish lb quarterback in the course of a rush/tackle. Not me much different, in spirit at least, from the "defenseless receiver" rule. That mission has largely been accomplished, I think.

I'd agree the QB slide rule should be tweaked. QBs should be getting down sooner. But still, even when it's enforced "wrong" it's not done so very often.

We're wishing there wasn't a human element in a very human activity. There's going to be ambiguity and incorrectness. Until we get AI refs, that is.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

I disagree with your view of the Andrews tackle, in which the defender swings his hips and drops down on the ball-carrier's legs from behind. Its not a normal tackle technique and not hard to see. The hip drop is obviously an extremely effective technique, but defenders also have the option of hitting and wrapping up.

Being "dirty" has nothing to do with it. No one is claiming an intent to injure. The horsecollar wasn't considered a dirty play and was in many cases the only way for a smaller defender to bring down a ball-carrier from behind, but it was deemed dangerous and players have adjusted.

I personally don't care whether the hip drop is banned or not, but I don't agree with many of the takes here which seem overly dramatic. I think this will be a minor issue if implemented and much of the discussion now is mountain/molehill stuff that is common this time of year.

I watched that play way too many times. It’s the entire basis for my argument against the HDT rule.

Even the NFLPA is against the rule.

Had Andrews not 1. Attempted to turn upfield and get more YAC, and 2. Not had his foot caught in the turf behind him when he did so, 3. The tackler would not have landed on his foot. When the contact was initiated it was a textbook clean tackle - wrapped around Andrews waist, attempting to bring him down at speed from the only angle he had. Had the tackle not been attempted, it’s a walk in TD.

That Andrews was injured as a result of the play is an unfortunate, but benign outcome. There was no intent to hurt Andrews, it most certainly was not a dirty tackle, and one could argue that Andrews should have given himself up rather than put himself in a position to get hurt. Obviously that’s silly because Andrews is going to try to score there, but the point is that his injury was no one’s “fault”, so making that the poster child for this bad rule seems misguided at best.

I have a different view of this particular tackle but am not sure about the "poster child" argument. I only referenced this tackle in the context of the ACL discussion above which I think was misplaced. But for me the obvious distinction is the tackler swiveling his hips around and dropping them on the runners legs. That's not textbook technique and is a requirement for the rule to apply. https://imgur.com/wtMJtp2

There are plenty of rules in the NFL that don't depend on intent to injure or the action being "dirty." Its not an "unnecessary roughness" type of call. I think that's somewhat of a straw man in this discussion. But I do think a post-game sanction might work better than a real-time penalty because it seems to be more confusing than I realized.

 

[Gruden's Keyboard]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Players ACLS get blown up from head on and side tackles

And non-contact as well.

I don’t think ACL is the main injury risk from a hip drop. Andrews and Pollard both had fibula fractures and torn up ankles.

What bugs me about this the most is that these two incidents are both labeled as hip drop tackles. I think the Pollard tackle was bad tackling and avoidable. It might cross into the realm of dirty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAVLKtHyk8

The Andrews tackle was the best the defender could have hoped to do. I did not see that as a dirty hit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fa3smREgzo

I disagree with your view of the Andrews tackle, in which the defender swings his hips and drops down on the ball-carrier's legs from behind. Its not a normal tackle technique and not hard to see. The hip drop is obviously an extremely effective technique, but defenders also have the option of hitting and wrapping up.

Being "dirty" has nothing to do with it. No one is claiming an intent to injure. The horsecollar wasn't considered a dirty play and was in many cases the only way for a smaller defender to bring down a ball-carrier from behind, but it was deemed dangerous and players have adjusted.

I personally don't care whether the hip drop is banned or not, but I don't agree with many of the takes here which seem overly dramatic. I think this will be a minor issue if implemented and much of the discussion now is mountain/molehill stuff that is common this time of year.

I watched that play way too many times. It’s the entire basis for my argument against the HDT rule.

Even the NFLPA is against the rule.

Had Andrews not 1. Attempted to turn upfield and get more YAC, and 2. Not had his foot caught in the turf behind him when he did so, 3. The tackler would not have landed on his foot. When the contact was initiated it was a textbook clean tackle - wrapped around Andrews waist, attempting to bring him down at speed from the only angle he had. Had the tackle not been attempted, it’s a walk in TD.

That Andrews was injured as a result of the play is an unfortunate, but benign outcome. There was no intent to hurt Andrews, it most certainly was not a dirty tackle, and one could argue that Andrews should have given himself up rather than put himself in a position to get hurt. Obviously that’s silly because Andrews is going to try to score there, but the point is that his injury was no one’s “fault”, so making that the poster child for this bad rule seems misguided at best.

I have a different view of this particular tackle but am not sure about the "poster child" argument. I only referenced this tackle in the context of the ACL discussion above which I think was misplaced. But for me the obvious distinction is the tackler swiveling his hips around and dropping them on the runners legs. That's not textbook technique and is a requirement for the rule to apply. https://imgur.com/wtMJtp2

There are plenty of rules in the NFL that don't depend on intent to injure or the action being "dirty." Its not an "unnecessary roughness" type of call. I think that's somewhat of a straw man in this discussion. But I do think a post-game sanction might work better than a real-time penalty because it seems to be more confusing than I realized.

I didn’t mean to imply you were making it the poster child. That just happens to be the image used by everyone writing articles about it. It’s been made the poster child for the rule. It’s also the injury / tackle that really got the conversation started.

 

[Da Guru]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

Sounds like lip service, like the lowering the helmet rule that is rarely called. If they want to look at it the week after the game that is OK. Fans don't want another long stoppage of play and more penalties. If they deem it to be a fine on Wednesday after the game so be it.


Troy Vincent: The violation will result in a 15-yard penalty if flagged in games, Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president of football operations, strongly implied that it is likely to be enforced similarly to the "use of helmet" rule, which typically leads to warning letters and fines in the week after a game rather than flags during play.

 

[Ilov80s]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

Sounds like lip service, like the lowering the helmet rule that is rarely called. If they want to look at it the week after the game that is OK. Fans don't want another long stoppage of play and more penalties. If they deem it to be a fine on Wednesday after the game so be it.


Troy Vincent: The violation will result in a 15-yard penalty if flagged in games, Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president of football operations, strongly implied that it is likely to be enforced similarly to the "use of helmet" rule, which typically leads to warning letters and fines in the week after a game rather than flags during play.

Ok that’s better imo

 

[Da Guru]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

Sounds like lip service, like the lowering the helmet rule that is rarely called. If they want to look at it the week after the game that is OK. Fans don't want another long stoppage of play and more penalties. If they deem it to be a fine on Wednesday after the game so be it.


Troy Vincent: The violation will result in a 15-yard penalty if flagged in games, Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president of football operations, strongly implied that it is likely to be enforced similarly to the "use of helmet" rule, which typically leads to warning letters and fines in the week after a game rather than flags during play.

Ok that’s better imo

agree..but I can see anything close like PI calls the offense will be screaming "Hip drop..drop..refs missed a hip drop that cost us."

 

[Gruden's Keyboard]

Vontaze Burfict hit Le'Veon Bell with the nastiest hip drop tackle. With clear malicious intent, Burfict celebrated right afterwards as Bell lay on the ground with his knee folded in half.

I have to give it to Vontaze, he was effective as they come playing for keeps, especially in an era where the game is supposed to be cleaned up.

Vontaze Burfict took out Ben Roethlisberger, Antonio Brown and Le'Veon Bell all in the same season...The Killer B Killa!

 

[Ilov80s]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

Sounds like lip service, like the lowering the helmet rule that is rarely called. If they want to look at it the week after the game that is OK. Fans don't want another long stoppage of play and more penalties. If they deem it to be a fine on Wednesday after the game so be it.


Troy Vincent: The violation will result in a 15-yard penalty if flagged in games, Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president iof football operations, strongly implied that it is likely to be enforced similarly to the "use of helmet" rule, which typically leads to warning letters and fines in the week after a game rather than flags during play.

Ok that’s better imo

agree..but I can see anything close like PI calls the offense will be screaming "Hip drop..drop..refs missed a hip drop that cost us."

I do feel for the players though. The NFLPA has to push for a sliding fine scale based on pay. These UDFAs and late draft picks get screwed by these fines.

 

[Da Guru]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

Sounds like lip service, like the lowering the helmet rule that is rarely called. If they want to look at it the week after the game that is OK. Fans don't want another long stoppage of play and more penalties. If they deem it to be a fine on Wednesday after the game so be it.


Troy Vincent: The violation will result in a 15-yard penalty if flagged in games, Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president iof football operations, strongly implied that it is likely to be enforced similarly to the "use of helmet" rule, which typically leads to warning letters and fines in the week after a game rather than flags during play.

Ok that’s better imo

agree..but I can see anything close like PI calls the offense will be screaming "Hip drop..drop..refs missed a hip drop that cost us."

I do feel for the players though. The NFLPA has to push for a sliding fine scale based on pay. These UDFAs and late draft picks get screwed by these fines.

Lot of backlash from players on social media. One player said "They aint never tried to tackle these dudes"

Adrian Amos

@_SmashAmos3
Being a ref getting tougher. How do you even judge that . When they are still trying to figure out what a catch is
Quote

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Well the hip drop tackle is now officially banned.

If you don't understand what a hip drop tackle is, and why it needed to go...don't worry, the football guys will handle it

Sounds like lip service, like the lowering the helmet rule that is rarely called. If they want to look at it the week after the game that is OK. Fans don't want another long stoppage of play and more penalties. If they deem it to be a fine on Wednesday after the game so be it.


Troy Vincent: The violation will result in a 15-yard penalty if flagged in games, Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president of football operations, strongly implied that it is likely to be enforced similarly to the "use of helmet" rule, which typically leads to warning letters and fines in the week after a game rather than flags during play.

Ok that’s better imo

Agreed.

My remaining concern will be acting.

All a player will have to do to draw the penalty flag +15 is to limp off the field after such a tackle. Refs will have no choice but to enforce it.

QBs take dives all the time to draw roughing calls. This will go down exactly the same way. That's my prediction