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Yogibear

How Drew Brees is being underestimated

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We all know that Drew Brees is going to pass Peyton Manning on the alltime career passing yardage list sometime this season, probably Week 5 against the Redskins.  But, I just saw something on www.espn.com that said that he wants to play at a high level until he's 45.  He's only 51 touchdown passes away from Peyton Manning's alltime record of 539.  But, the fact that he only has one ring and Tom Brady has five is a clear sign that no one outside the city of New Orleans is paying attention.  Drew Brees is probably going to be the first Saint to have his jersey retired.  And, still, the only thing people want to talk about is Tom Brady playing until he's 45.  That makes the fact that Drew Brees is chasing history less appreciative.  And, that's sad.  When it's all said and done, Tom Brady may end up with at least 5 rings, but Drew Brees is going to be the guy with all the records.  Are we not appreciating that fact enough?

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50 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

But, the fact that he only has one ring and Tom Brady has five is a clear sign that no one outside the city of New Orleans is paying attention.  

Good on the rest, but what?

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I don't see Brees being underrated at all. He has been talked about as being a top QB in the game with Brady, Peyton, and Rodgers for a decade plus. He is regarded by everyone as a first ballot HOFer and one of the best passing QBs of all time.

IMO he is clearly behind Brady, Peyton, Montana, and Unitas, in no particular order, and then he is in a group of others like Marino, Favre, Elway, Young, and Rodgers (for now) within which his rank is debatable.

What exactly would you expect is necessary to show that people outside the city of New Orleans are "paying attention?"

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3 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

I don't see Brees being underrated at all. He has been talked about as being a top QB in the game with Brady, Peyton, and Rodgers for a decade plus. He is regarded by everyone as a first ballot HOFer and one of the best passing QBs of all time.

IMO he is clearly behind Brady, Peyton, Montana, and Unitas, in no particular order, and then he is in a group of others like Marino, Favre, Elway, Young, and Rodgers (for now) within which his rank is debatable.

What exactly would you expect is necessary to show that people outside the city of New Orleans are "paying attention?"

He has something like half the 5,000 yards passing seasons. People are paying attention. 

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9 hours ago, Dezbelief said:

He has something like half the 5,000 yards passing seasons. 

I get that it's easy to root for a guy like Brees, I certainly have myself.

While the above stat is true, it's also true that Brees has about half the seasons an NFL QB has thrown 650+ pass attempts. People will say that he would have had another SB if he had talent around him, but I'd argue there would be other players pretty high in career yardage if you give them 650 or more pass attempts. IMO he benefits greatly by falling into a pass heavy offense before the rest of the NFL went in that direction.

 I wouldn't be surprised if Stafford makes a run at that record. It would almost be a lock if he got more of the 650 attempt seasons Brees gets. Since 2010 Stafford has had that many attempts twice, while Brees has that many attempts SIX times.

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1 hour ago, BoltBacker said:

I get that it's easy to root for a guy like Brees, I certainly have myself.

While the above stat is true, it's also true that Brees has about half the seasons an NFL QB has thrown 650+ pass attempts. People will say that he would have had another SB if he had talent around him, but I'd argue there would be other players pretty high in career yardage if you give them 650 or more pass attempts. IMO he benefits greatly by falling into a pass heavy offense before the rest of the NFL went in that direction.

 I wouldn't be surprised if Stafford makes a run at that record. It would almost be a lock if he got more of the 650 attempt seasons Brees gets. Since 2010 Stafford has had that many attempts twice, while Brees has that many attempts SIX times.

FWIW, Stafford leads the league in pass attempts per game for his career. 38.8. while Brees is 3rd with 37.3. (39.4 while in New Orleans). 

So your point is sound, but he's also done a LOT with the opportunity. He led the league in completion % four times, and yards per attempt last year. 

Their defense has been subpar which is a double edged sword. 

Stats are always subject to interpretation but Brees has performed at a level which puts him among the top 10 to ever play the game. 

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Just now, -OZ- said:

FWIW, Stafford leads the league in pass attempts per game for his career. 38.8. while Brees is 3rd with 37.3. (39.4 while in New Orleans). 

So your point is sound, but he's also done a LOT with the opportunity. He led the league in completion % four times, and yards per attempt last year. 

Their defense has been subpar which is a double edged sword. 

Stats are always subject to interpretation but Brees has performed at a level which puts him among the top 10 to ever play the game. 

Exactly.

Brees has career completion % of 67%. Stafford hit that number once in 9 years. Half of his seasons were in the 50's while having the benefit of Calvin Johnson for a nice chunk of his career.

And despite the higher completion percentage, his y/a is also better plus significantly more TDs. 

There's no question that Brees overall numbers benefit from his volume. But that volume has been more than justified by his efficiency despite that volume. The Saints lack of winning more titles is tied to their defense, not his passing volume.

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He's a volume passer, compared to Brady. Wonder what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row.  Brady has better career numbers in TD percentage, int percentage, and yards per. 

Brees is definitely an all time great, but not as good as Brady.

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27 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

He's a volume passer, compared to Brady. Wonder what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row.  Brady has better career numbers in TD percentage, int percentage, and yards per. 

Brees is definitely an all time great, but not as good as Brady.

They have the same Y/A (same TD% over the past 12 seasons, when Brees went to NO) and Brees has a better completion %. 

Maybe Brady would have done as much in NO but I am pretty sure we could just as easily say Brees would have done as much in New England.

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When you combine regular season and playoff numbers, there isn't a ton separating Brees / Brady / Manning in terms of passing totals . . .

Brees:
6576 completions, 9831 attempts, 66.9%, 74654 passing yards, 7.59 YPA, 517 TD, 237 INT. 96.1 QB rating (149-112 career record)

Brady:
6549 completions, 10269 attempts, 63.8%, 76385 passing yards, 7.44 YPA, 559 TD, 191 INT, 96.6 QB rating (223-65 career record)

Manning:
6774 completions, 10407 attempts, 65.1%, 79279 passing yards, 7.62 YPA, 579 TD, 276 INT, 95.6 QB rating (200-92 career record)
 

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13 minutes ago, Chaka said:

They have the same Y/A (same TD% over the past 12 seasons, when Brees went to NO) and Brees has a better completion %. 

Maybe Brady would have done as much in NO but I am pretty sure we could just as easily say Brees would have done as much in New England.

I will ignore the coaching and player personnel aspect of switching teams, but Brees played 51% of the games he's played in in a dome. Brady has played 8% of his career games indoors.

While it is easy to pass that off as "so what," Brees career QB rating indoors is 101.5 . . . but 91.5 playing outdoors. Brady's outdoor passer rating is 96.8 . . . but shoots up to 107.3 playing indoors.

Similarly, Brady's QB rating on turf is 9.7 points higher. Brees is 9.8 lower on grass. Brees has averaged 8.0 YPA indoors vs. 7.1 playing outdoors. Brady has averaged 8.7 YPA indoors vs. 7.4 outdoors. Start lopping off almost a yard per attempt playing outdoors and bumping up Brady's by almost a yard and a half playing indoors and that adds up quickly. Extrapolate those numbers over many years and their career totals just on playing surfaces and environments alone could have led to dramatically different numbers.

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26 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I will ignore the coaching and player personnel aspect of switching teams, but Brees played 51% of the games he's played in in a dome. Brady has played 8% of his career games indoors.

While it is easy to pass that off as "so what," Brees career QB rating indoors is 101.5 . . . but 91.5 playing outdoors. Brady's outdoor passer rating is 96.8 . . . but shoots up to 107.3 playing indoors.

Similarly, Brady's QB rating on turf is 9.7 points higher. Brees is 9.8 lower on grass. Brees has averaged 8.0 YPA indoors vs. 7.1 playing outdoors. Brady has averaged 8.7 YPA indoors vs. 7.4 outdoors. Start lopping off almost a yard per attempt playing outdoors and bumping up Brady's by almost a yard and a half playing indoors and that adds up quickly. Extrapolate those numbers over many years and their career totals just on playing surfaces and environments alone could have led to dramatically different numbers.

And if, and if, and if...

That's what these things always turn into. 

ETA: @Anarchy99 sorry, btw, if it seemed as if I was calling you out for your post. I was merely pointing out how these things go and didn't explicitly state that it is something we are all guilty of.

Edited by Chaka

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14 hours ago, Yogibear said:

When it's all said and done, Tom Brady may end up with at least 5 rings, but Drew Brees is going to be the guy with all the records.  Are we not appreciating that fact enough?

 

Thanks Yogibear. These kinds of discussions are always fun. Especially as Football is such a team dependent game compared to sports like baseball. Although baseball has the fun stuff with parks being so different and affecting hitters / pitchers differently.

I think your sentence above is what it boils down to. Winning or Records? 

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I agree with others he's not underestimated and everyone knows he's a first ballot HOFer.  

Would Nick Saban still be at Miami if they would have given him Brees instead of Culpepper?

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2 hours ago, gianmarco said:

The Saints lack of winning more titles is tied to their defense, not his passing volume.

My point wasn't that his passing volume was costing Saints titles.

I was making the point that if the Saints had been better on defense they probably would win more. But if the Saints played better defense Brees would liklely also have less passing volume... and lower passing records. And he would hold those records for a smaller amount of time as the rest of the league creeps up to a passing volume closer to what Brees has seen for more than a decade now with the Saints.

Oz put it very well when he said that the Saints having a poor defense has been a double edged sword. 

My point was never that Brees was bad or undeserving. He even seems like genuinely good guy so I have been a fan since SD drafted him. It's just that he has had a giant, consistent passing volume(in a dome, with plenty of quality TE/WR/receiving RB's/and fairly good blocking) that have certainly helped him get those numbers.

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46 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think your sentence above is what it boils down to. Winning or Records? 

I don't know what color the message boards were when this same conversations were had a couple of decades ago but I'm pretty sure you could just substitute Brady in for Montana and Brees in for Marino. The difference being Brees won his SB while Marino lost his SB.

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I do think the "what ifs" are fun. We had this conversation the other day with friends and it was mainly, "How many rings would Peyton Manning have if he'd been in Tom Brady's situation?"  Those are fun too. 

The way I kind of get out of the "teammate effect" is I ask it like this, "If you were starting a team, what QB would you pick?" Or you can do it with one game like "If you had one game to win, who would you pick for your QB?" That kind of stuff. 

Not sure it has answers, but fun to talk about. 

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2 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

He's a volume passer, compared to Brady. Wonder what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row.  Brady has better career numbers in TD percentage, int percentage, and yards per. 

Brees is definitely an all time great, but not as good as Brady.

I think the vast majority of us are okay with Brees being ranked just below the ?

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58 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think your sentence above is what it boils down to. Winning or Records? 

IMO it is about more than that. All of these things matter:

  1. Statistics/production, including accumulated and rate statistics, including all time ranks/records
  2. Honors/awards
  3. Winning, particularly in postseason
  4. Impact on the game
  5. Signature plays/games/seasons

Different people will value these criteria differently, and context also matters (e.g., the indoor vs. outdoor stuff @Anarchy99 posted above).

Brees has excelled at #1 on that list for sure. I think his 2006 season in the aftermath of Katrina fits #5. But he is otherwise lacking compared to the elite tier(s) of all-time QBs, like Brady, Montana, Unitas, and Peyton.

In particular, he has never won MVP and has been selected as 1st team All Pro just 1 time. Without doing the research, I assume there are no other QBs people would talk about as top 10 all time that didn't fare better in those honors/awards.

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I've heard millions of people call Brady a "system qb". To me, the label applies more to Brees than anybody. Payton has been one of the best play callers in the NFL. I guess we'll find out when the Saints have to use a different QB.

Edited by cloppbeast

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13 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I do think the "what ifs" are fun. We had this conversation the other day with friends and it was mainly, "How many rings would Peyton Manning have if he'd been in Tom Brady's situation?"  Those are fun too. 

That particular "what if" is fun to think about because it would be interesting to see how BB and the NE front office would handle Peyton's salary demands. Based on those salary demands what would be the team NE could have put around him? I doubt very much NE would have used both $ and draft picks to surround Manning with offensive talent in the same way the Colts did. For a lot of time Brady has had success the N.E. defense certainly made it easier for Brady to win..... but that's also because Brady could run that offense with less resources poured into the offensive cast around him.

People think deflate-gate was some sort of smoking gun..... when all they have to look at is the $'s Brady has counted against the cap for several of the seasons he has been among the best QB's in the league. THAT has influenced NE getting deep into the playoffs every year much more than one football ever so slightly inflated differently. THAT is the unfair advantage IF he slides into some high paying cushy job with the franchise after retiring. It seems hard for me to believe Peyton would have ever been willing to play for middle of the pack $ when he was leading his team to SB's(*).

(*) I am not really counting that last SB where Manning "led" that bronco team to the SB. In the "truck or trailer" argument he was definitely the trailer on the team having been beat out by Osweiler.

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4 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

I've heard millions of people call Brady a "system qb". To me, the label applies more to Brees than anybody. Payton has been one of the best play callers in the NFL. I guess we'll find out when the Saints have to use a different QB.

I would have loved to see what Lamar Jackson might have done in that system. Probably my single most disappointing moment in the draft when all that capital was used to trade up for..... Davenport!? I already can't wait for the 2019 draft. It's a sickness that gets worse every year.

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Just to add - I think rings is one of the worst possible ways to evaluate football players. I can't stand it. 

Probably because some people put so much value on it. I've just watched too many games turn on a couple of plays the player in question had nothing to do with. A perfectly placed pass dropped. Or a FG missed. But I know some people weigh rings heavily which makes the discussion more fun. 

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16 hours ago, Dezbelief said:

He has something like half the 5,000 yards passing seasons. People are paying attention. 

He has thrown for 5,000 yards 5 times in a season.  What I'm saying is the fact that people are always talking about Tom Brady having more rings than anybody.  Give me the guy who has all the records over the guy with all the rings.

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Another thing to consider is the fact that Drew Brees has never been named regular season MVP.  That's another reason why I think no one outside the city of New Orleans is "paying attention."

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

Just to add - I think rings is one of the worst possible ways to evaluate football players. I can't stand it. 

Probably because some people put so much value on it. I've just watched too many games turn on a couple of plays the player in question had nothing to do with. A perfectly placed pass dropped. Or a FG missed. But I know some people weigh rings heavily which makes the discussion more fun. 

I can’t stand that either. If that’s the criteria than Dilfer, Flacco, etc are all better than Marino. No other sport has as many things influencing the outcome. More players, weather, coaches, GMs and play callers that matter the most in sports, more refs and penalties/play reviews. Yet, so many base their opinion on Super Bowls. 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

Just to add - I think rings is one of the worst possible ways to evaluate football players. I can't stand it. 

Probably because some people put so much value on it. I've just watched too many games turn on a couple of plays the player in question had nothing to do with. A perfectly placed pass dropped. Or a FG missed. But I know some people weigh rings heavily which makes the discussion more fun. 

There's a lot more players on the field than the quarterback. Placing so much credit/fault on them insults the everybody else playing. 

Edited by cloppbeast

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29 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

Another thing to consider is the fact that Drew Brees has never been named regular season MVP.  That's another reason why I think no one outside the city of New Orleans is "paying attention."

You seem to imply that Brees should have won MVP one or more times but didn't because people outside New Orleans weren't paying attention. What seasons do you think Brees deserved to win MVP? If you can't identify any, it seemingly negates your point here.

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9 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

You seem to imply that Brees should have won MVP one or more times but didn't because people outside New Orleans weren't paying attention. What seasons do you think Brees deserved to win MVP? If you can't identify any, it seemingly negates your point here.

His record-breaking season of 2011 definitely should be a start.  In 2011, the Saints had the top offense and yet Aaron Rodgers ended up winning MVP.

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35 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

He has thrown for 5,000 yards 5 times in a season.  What I'm saying is the fact that people are always talking about Tom Brady having more rings than anybody.  Give me the guy who has all the records over the guy with all the rings.

Before I get accused of knocking Brees, I'm not. No doubt he is an all time great QB. Yes, he has thrown for 5,000 yards five times.

But he has 9 of the Top 25 seasons in passing attempts. No one else has more than two Top 25 seasons in passing attempts. When you combine the fact that he played on a team that threw the ball A TON, played indoors, played on turf, and was often behind, there is no doubt he was put in position to have all time great passing totals.

Using Brady as comparison, Brady played outdoors, many times in the cold and inclement weather, on a team that most weeks was up two scores or more in the second half. Does that mean either player was better than the other? No. All it means is they played under different circumstances. In Brees case, it got him some really impressive stats. In Brady's case, it got him multiple titles.

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4 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

He's a volume passer, compared to Brady. Wonder what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row.  Brady has better career numbers in TD percentage, int percentage, and yards per. 

Brees is definitely an all time great, but not as good as Brady.

Hahaha, the revolving pro-Brady narrative. Compare Brady's 50 TD season to Peyton's 49 TD season. Brady was the volume passer but nobody wanted to hear that (16% more passes, 6% more games played, 2% more TDs).

But comparing Brady to Brees, we're looking at 7.51 ypa to 7.58 ypa, respecitvely, so I think we can extrapolate what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row. But also let's not pretend Brees' coaches or surrounding talent have been nearly as good as the Patriots' coaches and players. Brees is constantly trying to win games in the 4th quarter while Brady is just running up the score. It's easier to score points against a defense that has quit. 

Since 2002 passing stats while up 10 points or more:
Brady - 1243/1905 - 14609/129/33
Brees - 798/1184 - 9342/78/21 

Change it to 4th quarter and 14 points or more:
Brady - 281/409 - 3308/28/2 (8.08 ypa)
Brees - 131/204 - 1440/10/3 (7.05 ypa)

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33 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

He has thrown for 5,000 yards 5 times in a season.  What I'm saying is the fact that people are always talking about Tom Brady having more rings than anybody.  Give me the guy who has all the records over the guy with all the rings.

From your posts, one might think that Brees has far outpaced Brady statistically, which is not true. Brees is ahead in some important statistics, and Brady is ahead in some others. For the most part, they are very close to each other, and both have played as the primary QB for their teams for 16 seasons, which makes it a straightforward comparison.

Both of them have been great statistically and in the clutch. If the discussion stopped there, they might be discussed as equals. Or maybe Brees would be viewed as being slightly better.

But the discussion doesn't stop there. Brady has 4 more rings, about 50% more wins over his career, and many more honors/awards. That is why Brady is rightfully viewed as better than Brees, and it does not mean that those people do not properly recognize or value Brees's accomplishments.

From the standpoint of recognition, it is unfortunate for Brees that he played his entire career overlapped with 3 QBs who are generally viewed as greater (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers), and IMO justifiably so.

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22 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Hahaha, the revolving pro-Brady narrative. Compare Brady's 50 TD season to Peyton's 49 TD season. Brady was the volume passer but nobody wanted to hear that (16% more passes, 6% more games played, 2% more TDs).

But comparing Brady to Brees, we're looking at 7.51 ypa to 7.58 ypa, respecitvely, so I think we can extrapolate what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row. But also let's not pretend Brees' coaches or surrounding talent have been nearly as good as the Patriots' coaches and players. Brees is constantly trying to win games in the 4th quarter while Brady is just running up the score. It's easier to score points against a defense that has quit. 

Since 2002 passing stats while up 10 points or more:
Brady - 1243/1905 - 14609/129/33
Brees - 798/1184 - 9342/78/21 

Change it to 4th quarter and 14 points or more:
Brady - 281/409 - 3308/28/2 (8.08 ypa)
Brees - 131/204 - 1440/10/3 (7.05 ypa)

Running up the score vs. garbage time stats.

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21 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Hahaha, the revolving pro-Brady narrative. Compare Brady's 50 TD season to Peyton's 49 TD season. Brady was the volume passer but nobody wanted to hear that (16% more passes, 6% more games played, 2% more TDs).

But comparing Brady to Brees, we're looking at 7.51 ypa to 7.58 ypa, respecitvely, so I think we can extrapolate what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row. But also let's not pretend Brees' coaches or surrounding talent have been nearly as good as the Patriots' coaches and players. Brees is constantly trying to win games in the 4th quarter while Brady is just running up the score. It's easier to score points against a defense that has quit. 

Since 2002 passing stats while up 10 points or more:
Brady - 1243/1905 - 14609/129/33
Brees - 798/1184 - 9342/78/21 

Change it to 4th quarter and 14 points or more:
Brady - 281/409 - 3308/28/2 (8.08 ypa)
Brees - 131/204 - 1440/10/3 (7.05 ypa)

Not sure what the point of the last part is. To me, at least, it just shows the Patriots were ahead more than the Saints were.

And for whomever said Brees is going to end up with all the records, Brady has already lapped the field in post season numbers. Almost 3K more post season passing yards than anyone else, 26 more playoff TD than anyone else, more wins, more SB appearances, more rings, etc.

That doesn't make him "better" than other QBs, but it's not like Brady is going to be lacking in the records category.

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4 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Before I get accused of knocking Brees, I'm not. No doubt he is an all time great QB. Yes, he has thrown for 5,000 yards five times.

But he has 9 of the Top 25 seasons in passing attempts. No one else has more than two Top 25 seasons in passing attempts. When you combine the fact that he played on a team that threw the ball A TON, played indoors, played on turf, and was often behind, there is no doubt he was put in position to have all time great passing totals.

Using Brady as comparison, Brady played outdoors, many times in the cold and inclement weather, on a team that most weeks was up two scores or more in the second half. Does that mean either player was better than the other? No. All it means is they played under different circumstances. In Brees case, it got him some really impressive stats. In Brady's case, it got him multiple titles.

Playing from behind means more passes, but the efficiency goes way down. Brady got the best of both worlds. The Patriots often passed the ball when teams were expecting them to run out the clock, but he rarely found himself in situations where the other team knew he had to pass.

Since 2002 playing while down 10 points or more in the 4th quarter:
Brees - 611/970 - 6955/51/31 (7.17 ypa)
Brady - 208/348 - 2261/22/9 (6.49 ypa)

That TD % and ypa are below career averages for both players. Playing from behind is a fantasy player's friend because we don't care about efficiency, so we'll take an increase in volume at the expense of efficiency, but it's not good for a QB's career averages. 

Extending the down by 10 points or more to a whole game yields:
Brees - 1346/2109 - 15070/85/69 (7.15)
Brady - 516/889 - 6052/41/21 (6.81)

I'm finding that if you switched Brees and Brady's situations, Brees' numbers would improve and Brady's would get worse. So I don't buy the argument that Brees' numbers were padded by situation. The volume helped, but when you're on an unbalanced team, the defense knows it and is prepared for it.

And I know Brady has had some crap WR corps, but the fact that Colston is the leading receiver on the Saints from 2002-2017 says a lot. What says even more is that Joe Horn (2002-2006) is the second leader! Nobody will ever guess the third... Devery Henderson. 

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7 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Not sure what the point of the last part is. To me, at least, it just shows the Patriots were ahead more than the Saints were.

And for whomever said Brees is going to end up with all the records, Brady has already lapped the field in post season numbers. Almost 3K more post season passing yards than anyone else, 26 more playoff TD than anyone else, more wins, more SB appearances, more rings, etc.

That doesn't make him "better" than other QBs, but it's not like Brady is going to be lacking in the records category.

Nobody cares about the "playing for the best team" stats. Who actually looks up post season stats? I've never heard anyone talk about post season passing yards.

ETA: The point of the last part was to show the efficiency of those stats. You aren't wrong, they were up more than the Saints. But the luxury of being up by a lot lends itself to extra efficiency, especially when you are specifically padding stats. Comparing the split stats from Peyton's 49 PTD season to Brady's 50 PTD is laughable. Worst case of stat padding in the history of the sport. FBG doesn't go back that far anymore, but I think Brady had 22 PTD while leading big compared to Peyton's 4 or 6 PTD while leading big. Can't remember offhand. 

Edited by FF Ninja

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8 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

Running up the score vs. garbage time stats.

As I showed in my next post, they are nowhere near the same. Brady in garbage time was 6.5 ypa. Brady in running up the score mode was over 8 ypa. 

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Here's something people are forgetting: Tom Brady missed the entire 2008 season with a knee injury.  I don't think Drew Brees has missed a season.  He might've missed one or 2 starts in a season, but he's never missed an entire season like Tom Brady did.  If he hadn't missed the 2008 season, we might be talking about him with all the rings and all the records.

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26 minutes ago, Yogibear said:
36 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

You seem to imply that Brees should have won MVP one or more times but didn't because people outside New Orleans weren't paying attention. What seasons do you think Brees deserved to win MVP? If you can't identify any, it seemingly negates your point here.

His record-breaking season of 2011 definitely should be a start.  In 2011, the Saints had the top offense and yet Aaron Rodgers ended up winning MVP.

Brees: 468/657 (71.2%), 5476 passing yards (8.3 YPA), 46 passing TDs (7.0%), 14 interceptions (2.1%), 110.6 passer rating, 83.0 QBR, 16 games, 13-3 team record

Rodgers: 343/502 (68.3%), 4643 passing yards (9.2 YPA), 45 passing TDs (9.0%), 6 interceptions (1.2%), 122.5 passer rating, 84.5 QBR, 15 games (sat out week 16), 14-1 team record

Both players played better indoors than outdoors, but Brees played 11 games indoors compared to just 3 for Rodgers. 

IMO Rodgers' performance is more impressive. His passer rating remains an all time single season record. Rodgers' season is arguably the most impressive QB season in history.

Also note that the NO defense was better than the GB defense, which ranked #32 in yards allowed and #19 in points allowed. So Rodgers had to carry his team at least as much as Brees did, arguably more, and carried it to a better record.

All of that is why Rodgers won the MVP award in a landslide, with 48 votes to Brees's 2.

 

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8 minutes ago, Yogibear said:

Here's something people are forgetting: Tom Brady missed the entire 2008 season with a knee injury.  I don't think Drew Brees has missed a season.  He might've missed one or 2 starts in a season, but he's never missed an entire season like Tom Brady did.  If he hadn't missed the 2008 season, we might be talking about him with all the rings and all the records.

:confused: 

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29 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

As I showed in my next post, they are nowhere near the same. Brady in garbage time was 6.5 ypa. Brady in running up the score mode was over 8 ypa. 

Ok. So Brady isn't as good at racking up stats in garbage time. :shrug: 

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17 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Nobody cares about the "playing for the best team" stats. Who actually looks up post season stats? I've never heard anyone talk about post season passing yards.

ETA: The point of the last part was to show the efficiency of those stats. You aren't wrong, they were up more than the Saints. But the luxury of being up by a lot lends itself to extra efficiency, especially when you are specifically padding stats. Comparing the split stats from Peyton's 49 PTD season to Brady's 50 PTD is laughable. Worst case of stat padding in the history of the sport. FBG doesn't go back that far anymore, but I think Brady had 22 PTD while leading big compared to Peyton's 4 or 6 PTD while leading big. Can't remember offhand. 

In the regular season, Brady has played 92.1% of the time outdoors and 7.9% indoors over the course of his career. Brees has played outside 49.4% of the time and indoors 50.6% of the time.

Here are the actual regular season totals for both players to date:

BREES:
6222 completions, 9292 attempts, 66.9% completion, 96.7% QB rating, 7.6 YPA, 70445 passing yards, 488 TD, 228 INT.

BRADY:
5129 completions, 8805 attempts, 63.9 completion%, 97.6% rating, 66159 passing yards, 488 TD, 160 INT.

BUT . . . if we used real performance levels for indoors and outdoors and had both players play the % of indoor/outdoor of the other QB, here would be the recalibrated numbers.

BREES:

5860 completions, 8983 attempts, 65.2% completion, 92.3 QB rating,7.2 YPA, 64850 passing yards, 431 TD, 220 INT.

BRADY:
5680 completions, 8383 attempts, 67.8% completion, 103.6 QB rating, 8.0 YPA, 67397 passing yards, 514 TD, 179 INT

Brees would lose almost 6000 passing yards and 55+ TDs had he played at the same level outdoors if he had to do so as much as Brady did.
Brady would have been more efficient playing indoors as much as Brees did and would have gained 1000+ passing yards and 25+ TDs.

Brees had a HUGE advantage getting to play in a dome and it's not judge a marginal thing to be dismissed when looking at his career numbers. And to reiterate, he's still an all time great QB (and I am not pimping Brady as super human here, only that he was the one guy that was mentioned).

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43 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

In the regular season, Brady has played 92.1% of the time outdoors and 7.9% indoors over the course of his career. Brees has played outside 49.4% of the time and indoors 50.6% of the time.

Here are the actual regular season totals for both players to date:

BREES:
6222 completions, 9292 attempts, 66.9% completion, 96.7% QB rating, 7.6 YPA, 70445 passing yards, 488 TD, 228 INT.

BRADY:
5129 completions, 8805 attempts, 63.9 completion%, 97.6% rating, 66159 passing yards, 488 TD, 160 INT.

BUT . . . if we used real performance levels for indoors and outdoors and had both players play the % of indoor/outdoor of the other QB, here would be the recalibrated numbers.

BREES:

5860 completions, 8983 attempts, 65.2% completion, 92.3 QB rating,7.2 YPA, 64850 passing yards, 431 TD, 220 INT.

BRADY:
5680 completions, 8383 attempts, 67.8% completion, 103.6 QB rating, 8.0 YPA, 67397 passing yards, 514 TD, 179 INT

Brees would lose almost 6000 passing yards and 55+ TDs had he played at the same level outdoors if he had to do so as much as Brady did.
Brady would have been more efficient playing indoors as much as Brees did and would have gained 1000+ passing yards and 25+ TDs.

Brees had a HUGE advantage getting to play in a dome and it's not judge a marginal thing to be dismissed when looking at his career numbers. And to reiterate, he's still an all time great QB (and I am not pimping Brady as super human here, only that he was the one guy that was mentioned).

When’s their difference when playing at home? Most teams play better at home so using this stat doesn’t really work because Brady gets a home field advantage vs Brees getting the road.

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17 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

In the regular season, Brady has played 92.1% of the time outdoors and 7.9% indoors over the course of his career. Brees has played outside 49.4% of the time and indoors 50.6% of the time.

Here are the actual regular season totals for both players to date:

BREES:
6222 completions, 9292 attempts, 66.9% completion, 96.7% QB rating, 7.6 YPA, 70445 passing yards, 488 TD, 228 INT.

BRADY:
5129 completions, 8805 attempts, 63.9 completion%, 97.6% rating, 66159 passing yards, 488 TD, 160 INT.

BUT . . . if we used real performance levels for indoors and outdoors and had both players play the % of indoor/outdoor of the other QB, here would be the recalibrated numbers.

BREES:

5860 completions, 8983 attempts, 65.2% completion, 92.3 QB rating,7.2 YPA, 64850 passing yards, 431 TD, 220 INT.

BRADY:
5680 completions, 8383 attempts, 67.8% completion, 103.6 QB rating, 8.0 YPA, 67397 passing yards, 514 TD, 179 INT

Brees would lose almost 6000 passing yards and 55+ TDs had he played at the same level outdoors if he had to do so as much as Brady did.
Brady would have been more efficient playing indoors as much as Brees did and would have gained 1000+ passing yards and 25+ TDs.

Brees had a HUGE advantage getting to play in a dome and it's not judge a marginal thing to be dismissed when looking at his career numbers. And to reiterate, he's still an all time great QB (and I am not pimping Brady as super human here, only that he was the one guy that was mentioned).

The indoor/outdoor stats are interesting. Where do you get those?

Those are certainly something to take into consideration along with the situational stats I listed, but the most difficult factors to consider are quality of coaches and quality of surrounding talent. I don't think anyone would argue Brady hasn't had better coaches and surrounding talent than just about everyone else throughout his career. Stats will never do that advantage justice.

FWIW, I am not trying to say Brees is the best of all time. To me Rodgers' efficiency metrics are just too good to overlook. He's head and shoulders above everyone else, IMO. I just think Brees and Brady are extremely close. I don't think one is clearly better than the other. I would kill to get to see an alternate universe where they switched places, though. 

I just remembered something I need to revise from my other post. Joe Horn didn't even play with Drew Brees. Or if he did, it was the last year of his career. So that bumps Devery Henderson up to Brees' #2 all time WR. 

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53 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

Ok. So Brady isn't as good at racking up stats in garbage time. :shrug: 

If that's your takeaway then there's no point in any further discussion on this topic. It's ok. I'm sure I've got bias on other subjects. We've all got rose tinted glasses we bring out for certain occasions. 

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4 minutes ago, Borden said:

When’s their difference when playing at home? Most teams play better at home so using this stat doesn’t really work because Brady gets a home field advantage vs Brees getting the road.

Not sure what you are driving at here. In the numbers I just listed with regard to indoors or outdoors, obviously all of Brady’s indoor numbers were road games. So his better numbers had more to do with the surroundings than the fact he was on the road. 

In Brees’ case, he would obviously have more emphasis on road games than home games going from 50% playing indoors to 90% outdoors. 

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