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JohnnyU

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread

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She’s been setting herself up as opposed to Biden’s candidacy, heavily criticizing him more and more. Actually that’s great for Biden. (In the long run not bad for AOC either.) 

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Just now, Juxtatarot said:

Assuming the crop grows well in the climate, choosing "culturally familiar" plants in a community garden makes sense to me.  

Yeah makes sense to me. Grow stuff people in the area know how to prepare and like to eat. 

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Posted (edited)

I like how no one here thinks this gibberish isn't funny.  :lmao:

 

“But when you really think about it — when someone says that it’s ‘too hard’ to do a green space that grows Yucca instead of, I don’t know, cauliflower or something — what you’re doing is that you’re taking a colonial approach to environmentalism, and that is why a lot of communities of color get resistant to certain environmentalist movements because they come with the colonial lens on them,” Ocasio-Cortez said. 

Edited by jon_mx

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Posted (edited)

At least a couple dozen pages later and my comment is still the same....if we put a tenth of the energy towards scrutinizing Trump's behavior, comments etc that we are in this freshman Congresswoman we'd be a lot better off as a country and Trump probably isn't even in office today....something to think about....nah, who am I kidding :lmao: 

ETA:  Turns out just 6-7 pages...point remains.  Truly amazing.

Edited by The Commish
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58 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I like how no one here thinks this gibberish isn't funny.  :lmao:

 

“But when you really think about it — when someone says that it’s ‘too hard’ to do a green space that grows Yucca instead of, I don’t know, cauliflower or something — what you’re doing is that you’re taking a colonial approach to environmentalism, and that is why a lot of communities of color get resistant to certain environmentalist movements because they come with the colonial lens on them,” Ocasio-Cortez said. 

What’s funny?

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32 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

What’s funny?

Everything.   It is utter nonsense.    

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1 minute ago, the moops said:

someone seems a wee bit obsessed

Someone? Or an entire political party? 

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14 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Everything.   It is utter nonsense.    

Her point is that environmentalism can be more effective when there is a buy in from the community. That’s utter nonsense?

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Someone? Or an entire political party? 

Like the party that talked impeachment the night Trump was elected? She makes stupid comments. People will call her out.

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5 minutes ago, the moops said:

someone seems a wee bit obsessed

She has a movie made about her and a second one in the works.  There is even a comic-book out featuring her as a superhero.   Many of the leading democrats are working with her and endorsing her fairytale marxist-like utopia plans hoping for her support and endorsement.   She is a hero to many on the far-left who eat up her mindless rhetoric.  It is quite comical how people eat this up.  

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

She has a movie made about her and a second one in the works.  There is even a comic-book out featuring her as a superhero.   Many of the leading democrats are working with her and endorsing her fairytale marxist-like utopia plans hoping for her support and endorsement.   She is a hero to many on the far-left who eat up her mindless rhetoric.  It is quite comical how people eat this up.  

What about her is Marxist?  And be specific not just the blanket “everything”.

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2 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Her point is that environmentalism can be more effective when there is a buy in from the community. That’s utter nonsense?

That point isn’t nonsense. But her use of language- “colonialism”- is typical leftist university speak and rather silly. 

More importantly, she and other progressives pushing for Green New Deal type remedies are really getting it wrong. If you’re going to attempt the changes to existing structures that is being proposed, it’s not the “community” that needs to support you, it’s the landlords, small and large. You need to not only convince them of the necessity, you need to make it sweet for them. Otherwise this is never going to happen, no matter how much grass roots support you have. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

What about her is Marxist?  And be specific not just the blanket “everything”.

She has stated that capitalism is “irredeemable”. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/house/433394-ocasio-cortez-capitalism-is-irredeemable%3famp

Thats a Marxist approach, sadly. 

Edited by timschochet

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

She has stated that capitalism is “irredeemable”. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/house/433394-ocasio-cortez-capitalism-is-irredeemable%3famp

Thats a Marxist approach, sadly. 

I’m pretty sure Jon can speak for himself Tim.

Also did you read the whole thing?  Because much of what she said is not close to Marx.

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7 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

What about her is Marxist?  And be specific not just the blanket “everything”.

Do you comprehend what the green deal proposes?   It is a massive government take over of everything with the goal of equal outcomes for all.  She has zero use for capitalism and thinks everyone should get what they need regardless of what they do.   She thinks goods come from government.  Her thinking is quite bizarre coming from someone who has study economics.  

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I’m pretty sure Jon can speak for himself Tim.

Also did you read the whole thing?  Because much of what she said is not close to Marx.

First off, if you ask a question like that one anyone should be able to answer it. It’s not a question specific to jon mx. 

Second, yes I did read the whole thing and I have also read plenty of Marx and yes it’s close. Marx was not a Communist of the Leninist/Maoist variety; his communism/socialism was far closer to the Democratic socialist model that AOC and Bernie have in mind. When AOC says that “the workers produce the wealth of society”, when she claims that capitalism was created by the bankers as a means to rob the workers of the wealth they created, when she calls it irredeemable, that’s pure Marxism. It’s distilled Das Kapital. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

First off, if you ask a question like that one anyone should be able to answer it. It’s not a question specific to jon mx. 

Second, yes I did read the whole thing and I have also read plenty of Marx and yes it’s close. Marx was not a Communist of the Leninist/Maoist variety; his communism/socialism was far closer to the Democratic socialist model that AOC and Bernie have in mind. When AOC says that “the workers produce the wealth of society”, when she claims that capitalism was created by the bankers as a means to rob the workers of the wealth they created, when she calls it irredeemable, that’s pure Marxism. It’s distilled Das Kapital. 

Sure. Though he made the claim about Marx...more than one.  And it’s going to be the predictable shift from the right coming soon with her and Bernie to paint them as communists.

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4 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Do you comprehend what the green deal proposes?   It is a massive government take over of everything with the goal of equal outcomes for all.  She has zero use for capitalism and thinks everyone should get what they need regardless of what they do.   She thinks goods come from government.  Her thinking is quite bizarre coming from someone who has study economics.  

Of everything?  No. That isn’t what the GND is.

And I’m not surprised the be specific part was completely ignored.  

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2 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Do you comprehend what the green deal proposes?   It is a massive government take over of everything with the goal of equal outcomes for all.  She has zero use for capitalism and thinks everyone should get what they need regardless of what they do.   She thinks goods come from government.  Her thinking is quite bizarre coming from someone who has study economics.  

Couple of points wrong with your statement: 

1. The GND remains undefined, but obviously it will involve big government. However that in itself doesn’t make it an anti-capitalist program. In theory at least, like the New Deal, it’s an emergency response to a crisis and not meant to replace our economic system. 

2. I don’t know that she has “zero use for capitalism” or that she wants to reward people based on need- she hasn’t said either and you shouldn’t put words in her mouth. 

3. She doesn’t believe goods come from government; she believes they come from the workers (that is Marxist theory incidentally.) 

4. Sadly, her thinking is not at all bizarre for someone who studies economics. Many people who study economics become life long Marxists, for a variety of reasons, mostly because it provides an answer to perceived social injustice. 

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Just now, sho nuff said:

Of everything?  No. That isn’t what the GND is.

And I’m not surprised the be specific part was completely ignored.  

I can only be as specific as she is.  It is impossible to be more specific until she gets more specific.   She speaks in fantasy terms with utopia outcomes which quite closely resemble Marx's world.  

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5 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Sure. Though he made the claim about Marx...more than one.  And it’s going to be the predictable shift from the right coming soon with her and Bernie to paint them as communists.

She’s not a Communist. Neither is Bernie Sanders. Conservatives would be unwise to make that claim as it is easily disproved. She is, however, pretty clearly a Marxist. 

But even this is a generalization because there are so many different kinds of Marxists and I don’t know where she fits. Is she a member of the New Left? 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

She’s not a Communist. Neither is Bernie Sanders. Conservatives would be unwise to make that claim as it is easily disproved. She is, however, pretty clearly a Marxist. 

But even this is a generalization because there are so many different kinds of Marxists and I don’t know where she fits. Is she a member of the New Left? 

But that’s where this will be going when people start going towards Marx and are unable to come up with specifics. 

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2 hours ago, sho nuff said:

What about her is Marxist?  And be specific not just the blanket “everything”.

 I think wanting direct social ownership of the means of production probably qualifies right? 

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It is funny that people here are all concerned about labeling this poor young lady a Marxist, meanwhile this flamethrowing hero of the left tweets things like this in the last few days:

"The GOP doesn’t care about babies at all - especially brown, black, or poor ones."

"What angers me about the GOP’s attempts to turn the United States into a far-right Christian theocracy is how dishonest they are about it.  At least be forthright about your desire to subvert and dismantle our democracy into a creepy theological order led by a mad king."

She brings on the criticism and is well deserved.  

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5 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It is funny that people here are all concerned about labeling this poor young lady a Marxist, meanwhile this flamethrowing hero of the left tweets things like this in the last few days:

"The GOP doesn’t care about babies at all - especially brown, black, or poor ones."

"What angers me about the GOP’s attempts to turn the United States into a far-right Christian theocracy is how dishonest they are about it.  At least be forthright about your desire to subvert and dismantle our democracy into a creepy theological order led by a mad king."

She brings on the criticism and is well deserved.  

Ummm she is dead on with those words about the GOP and what they are doing with abortion.

Its more funny that some spend so much time criticizing a freshman congresswoman and zero time in the Iran thread, or any other discussing serious issues going on right now.

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9 hours ago, sho nuff said:

I’m pretty sure Jon can speak for himself Tim.

Also did you read the whole thing?  Because much of what she said is not close to Marx.

Lol. That sure didn't work out the way you hoped. Seems Tim set ya straight.

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3 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Lol. That sure didn't work out the way you hoped. Seems Tim set ya straight.

Not really...my point stood up well and will play out that way as the right shift from just screaming socialist to screaming commie....have anything you want to attribute to her she didn’t actually say like you did with Pete?

 

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1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

Not really...my point stood up well and will play out that way as the right shift from just screaming socialist to screaming commie....have anything you want to attribute to her she didn’t actually say like you did with Pete?

 

AOC self-identifies as a socialist.  There's nothing unfair or inaccurate about referring to her as such.  

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

AOC self-identifies as a socialist.  There's nothing unfair or inaccurate about referring to her as such.  

Democratic socialist and the differences between whatbshe and guys like Bernie are pushing and what many think of as socialism (sad many actually already think communism) is what I am getting at.  And those using it in a derogatory way as an insult (also not realize we already have many socialist like tendencies in this country).

Just saying the shift that will likely occur (and already is happening) is pretty predictable.

Edited by sho nuff

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7 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

AOC self-identifies as a socialist.  There's nothing unfair or inaccurate about referring to her as such.  

That is true and I really don`t view AOC as a true Democrat.   That is why we need a true Socialist Party to push their agenda and not hide behind the Democrats. Bernie and AOC should be the pioneers of that viable third party.

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9 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

That is true and I really don`t view AOC as a true Democrat.   That is why we need a true Socialist Party to push their agenda and not hide behind the Democrats. Bernie and AOC should be the pioneers of that viable third party.

There are already two strictly socialist parties.

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11 hours ago, The Commish said:

At least a couple dozen pages later and my comment is still the same....if we put a tenth of the energy towards scrutinizing Trump's behavior, comments etc that we are in this freshman Congresswoman we'd be a lot better off as a country and Trump probably isn't even in office today....something to think about....nah, who am I kidding :lmao: 

ETA:  Turns out just 6-7 pages...point remains.  Truly amazing.

This is a strange post. Almost every thread in this forum has posts criticizing trump. This thread is 50/50 of criticism compared to defense of her/outright silly love of her. 

It's like this was your first visit to this forum and you only opened this thread and the john wick thread. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, timschochet said:

Marx was not a Communist of the Leninist/Maoist variety; his communism/socialism was far closer to the Democratic socialist model that AOC and Bernie have in mind.

I don’t even know the context of this thread but the Manifesto is the definition of communist purpose and method. Lenin and Mao have specified paths but once you engage in the dialectic there really isn’t a peaceful means.

Marx and Engels recognized certain fundamental economic laws or effect which are immutable, especially labor as a commodity, so that can be found in capitalist and socialist thought today, but that doesn’t overwrite Marx’s political ideology about methodology for effectuating permanent change.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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5 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I don’t even know the context of this thread but the Manifesto is the definition of communist purpose and method. Lenin and Mao have specified paths but once you engage in the dialectic there really isn’t a peaceful means.

Marx and Engels recognized certain fundamental economic laws or effect which are immutable, especially labor as a commodity, so that can be found in capitalist and socialism today, but that doesn’t overwrite Marx’s political ideology about methodology for effectuating permanent change.

I don’t want to get into a prolonged discussion because it literally could take thousands of pages (and has) so let me be very simplistic: 

Lenin took Marx’s ideas and added to them a one party totalitarian dictatorship. When most people think about communism they think about this Lenin/Stalin/Mao government that created so much agony and death in the 20th Century. It may be that this is the inevitable result of attempting Communism, that argument has certainly been made. But it wasn’t any part of Marx’s vision. 

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15 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

This is a strange post. Almost every thread in this forum has posts criticizing trump. This thread is 50/50 of criticism compared to defense of her/outright silly love of her. 

It's like this was your first visit to this forum and you only opened this thread and the john wick thread. 

It's like I am watching people get worked up over a freshman congresswoman and her pie in the sky vision of the future vs getting worked up a current threat to our democracy.  Let's be honest, the people aren't doing both, so that excuse doesn't fly.  It's quite Twilight Zone - esque to watch people who incessantly whine about the "echo chamber" allowing that very "echo chamber" to drive their focus.  

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7 minutes ago, The Commish said:

It's like I am watching people get worked up over a freshman congresswoman and her pie in the sky vision of the future vs getting worked up a current threat to our democracy.  Let's be honest, the people aren't doing both, so that excuse doesn't fly.  It's quite Twilight Zone - esque to watch people who incessantly whine about the "echo chamber" allowing that very "echo chamber" to drive their focus.  

How many in here that have complained about AOC...have said one word recently in the Iran thread?  This pretty much proves your point.  Its crickets in there.

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3 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

How many in here that have complained about AOC...have said one word recently in the Iran thread?  This pretty much proves your point.  Its crickets in there.

:lmao:

What kind of logic is this?  

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11 minutes ago, The Commish said:

It's like I am watching people get worked up over a freshman congresswoman and her pie in the sky vision of the future vs getting worked up a current threat to our democracy

It is literally insane that people are talking about AOC in the AOC thread, amirite? 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t want to get into a prolonged discussion because it literally could take thousands of pages (and has) so let me be very simplistic: 

Lenin took Marx’s ideas and added to them a one party totalitarian dictatorship. When most people think about communism they think about this Lenin/Stalin/Mao government that created so much agony and death in the 20th Century. It may be that this is the inevitable result of attempting Communism, that argument has certainly been made. But it wasn’t any part of Marx’s vision. 

Yeah it is a long discussion but I strongly disagree. Leninist methods can be found in non-communist movements. Marx was right about some points on economics, even today things like labor displacement and social unrest caused by technology are easily relatable, but reality is he advocated taking property from some and handing it to others, he did this in the wake of the 1848 revolutions, and doing so forcefully and there’s no glossing it.

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3 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

It is literally insane that people are talking about AOC in the AOC thread, amirite? 

It's not so much that people are talking about AOC, it's that they are talking about AOC in a manner that comes across as if we don't do something immediately she's going to blow up the country ALL THE WHILE those same people remain completely silent on the current administration in office and the actions it is actually taking.  I personally think that's odd :shrug: 

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Ummm she is dead on with those words about the GOP and what they are doing with abortion.

Its more funny that some spend so much time criticizing a freshman congresswoman and zero time in the Iran thread, or any other discussing serious issues going on right now.

:lmao:....according to the cesspool she is dead on.  She is dead on except there is no theology, there is no king, and declaring people don't care about the babies (especially because of their skin color) is just whacky divisive leftist rhetoric.  But except for being wrong on all counts, i suppose she is 'dead on'.  

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4 minutes ago, The Commish said:

It's not so much that people are talking about AOC, it's that they are talking about AOC in a manner that comes across as if we don't do something immediately she's going to blow up the country ALL THE WHILE those same people remain completely silent on the current administration in office and the actions it is actually taking.  I personally think that's odd :shrug: 

She is the darling of the far-left.  She is easily mocked for her ridiculous statements, but yet there is a significant group of people who really thinks she is the greatest thing ever.   

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Just now, jon_mx said:

:lmao:....according to the cesspool she is dead on.  She is dead on except there is no theology, there is no king, and declaring people don't care about the babies (especially because of their skin color) is just whacky divisive leftist rhetoric.  But except for being wrong on all counts, i suppose she is 'dead on'.  

Then let me know when these legislatures that are banning abortion do anything to fund services for children rather than cutting them?

Let me know what their infant mortality rate is and what they are doing to fix that?

You can keep claiming she is whacky and wrong...yet you never seem to actually show what she said is really wrong.  You just proclaim it as such and expect people to agree.

There is no king...except where the current POTUS is basically declaring himself above congressional authority...ok.  

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Just now, jon_mx said:

She is the darling of the far-left.  She is easily mocked for her ridiculous statements, but yet there is a significant group of people who really thinks she is the greatest thing ever.   

Your proof of a significant group thinking she is the greatest is a comic?

:lmao:

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11 hours ago, timschochet said:

She has stated that capitalism is “irredeemable”. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/house/433394-ocasio-cortez-capitalism-is-irredeemable%3famp

Thats a Marxist approach, sadly. 

FWIW this is the original article.

- Drives me crazy when the Hill just recaps others’ reporting.

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10 minutes ago, The Commish said:

It's not so much that people are talking about AOC, it's that they are talking about AOC in a manner that comes across as if we don't do something immediately she's going to blow up the country ALL THE WHILE those same people remain completely silent on the current administration in office and the actions it is actually taking.  I personally think that's odd :shrug: 

Not odd at all, IMO. 

Many conservatives believe that AOC is the new face of the Democratic Party. It serves them well to believe this because it will help them win 2020, but even beyond that they need to believe it because it allows them to rationalize the current administration.  

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Your proof of a significant group thinking she is the greatest is a comic?

:lmao:

:lmao:....we have gone over this a dozen times.  The comic is just the epotime of all the things.  There is a $10million movie.  There is endless political coverage from both sides.  There is political rallies with the top progressive candidate.   She is a media sensation.  

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