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So Democracy is Fake in the UK? (1 Viewer)

Gr00vus said:
And if they had another vote in 2019, it wouldn't be different either.
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WTF are you talking about? They didn't implement the results of their last vote. 

Let's pretend Trump loses in early November of 2020, then goes all gung ho and says we're revoting December 20, 2020 bc we got it wrong. 

The above is basically what you're arguing for, it is shocking to me. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
WTF are you talking about? They didn't implement the results of their last vote. 

Let's pretend Trump loses in early November of 2020, then goes all gung ho and says we're revoting December 20, 2020 bc we got it wrong. 

The above is basically what you're arguing for, it is shocking to me. 
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You seem upset. Whether the decision has been implemented or not is irrelevant to considering whether the decision turned out to be a bad one, and reversing the decision if it was a bad one. Given your reasoning there should have been no vote in 2016 either, they'd already decided in 1975 to be in. Either you allow people to change their course or you don't, whether it's 3 years on or 40. I can't agree with your viewpoint that people should be stuck with their bad decisions when they can remedy them, regardless of when they come to realize the decision is bad. Precedent for changing course was set in 2017, there's no reason to think it can't be done again in 2019.

Voting for a particular policy via popular referendum is not the same thing as voting for a representative. The Trump analogy is a bad one.

 
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Gr00vus said:
You seem upset. Whether the decision has been implemented or not is irrelevant to considering whether the decision turned out to be a bad one, and reversing the decision if it was a bad one. Given your reasoning there should have been no vote in 2016 either, they'd already decided in 1975 to be in. Either you allow people to change their course or you don't, whether it's 3 years on or 40. I can't agree with your viewpoint that people should be stuck with their bad decisions when they can remedy them, regardless of when they come to realize the decision is bad. Precedent for changing course was set in 2017, there's no reason to think it can't be done again in 2019.

Voting for a particular policy via popular referendum is not the same thing as voting for a representative. The Trump analogy is a bad one.
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Your logic is so flawed here, I don't know where to begin, so I won't.

Glad you guys are all okay with this. Good thing we don't have some maniac in office who would look at this as an opening to use his ultimate authority. 

I mean, he would be the adult correcting the mistakes of the children, or one could see him making that argument. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Your logic is so flawed here, I don't know where to begin, so I won't.

Glad you guys are all okay with this. Good thing we don't have some maniac in office who would look at this as an opening to use his ultimate authority. 

I mean, he would be the adult correcting the mistakes of the children, or one could see him making that argument. 
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I disagreed with it. I just wish you'd be nicer.

 
putting up for a common vote whether to unwind a decade of economic integration and then still deal on a case by case basis with your former partners all while desiring the good parts of the eu without any of the supposedly negative ones without a plan in place where literally all but probably less than 1 percent undrestand what that means is both pretty nieave and also pretty effen stupid but hey that is just me talkin take that to the bank bromigos 

 
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fantasycurse42 said:
No, I wouldn't. I'll give an example that is a little closer to home; we know Trump is a ####### disaster, but he was voted in (and I think he'll be voted out in about 23 months) - I can't wait. With that, the result was the result, we can't revote, to me this is no different. 

You can't come back from the vote and say oops... Maybe they'll learn a lesson (hopefully a few people over here did). You go against a vote, you tip an ugly domino, and I don't think it should be done. You don't get a redo. 
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That's the spirit.  When you #### up - just double down!!

Some things are not best left to the masses - and something as incredibly complex as leaving the EU is one of those things.  I think its great if you want to take the pulse of the nation - but when you generically ask: "Stay or Go?"  without the slightest idea of what either scenario looks like - then you owe it to yourselves to take another look, once you actually have some idea of the end result.

 
You realize that most Americans want marijuana to be legal.

You realize that it is not legal in most states.

But if everyone voted for it....

 
gianmarco said:
You realize that most Americans want marijuana to be legal.

You realize that it is not legal in most states.

But if everyone voted for it....
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And the vote was to make it legal, and then Trump decided it didn't make sense... 

No reason to continue this conversation. After this precedent has been set, no going back. 

If a vote isn't going to mean anything, or because people will be unhappy about what they voted for, don't have elections & votes.  

 
fantasycurse42 said:
I'd like to look at the actual ballot, but I was under the impression the vote was to "leave or remain"... 

I'm fairly certain if you listen to all of the #### that is spewed at every election, across the world, throughout the history of time, everyone lobbying for their side is spewing a bunch of ####. 

Do you recall a time in our country when there was an election and someone spewed a ton of lies? Doesn't change the fact that as a voter, you need to do your homework and not take everything at face value. 
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The reluctance of legislators to implement the verbatim will of the people when they know it's going to be awful for the country is the defining argument in favor of indirect democracy.  

 
fantasycurse42 said:
No, I wouldn't. I'll give an example that is a little closer to home; we know Trump is a ####### disaster, but he was voted in (and I think he'll be voted out in about 23 months) - I can't wait. With that, the result was the result, we can't revote, to me this is no different. 

You can't come back from the vote and say oops... Maybe they'll learn a lesson (hopefully a few people over here did). You go against a vote, you tip an ugly domino, and I don't think it should be done. You don't get a redo. 
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Strange comparison considering we do revote every four years and get to say oops we learned a lesson. 

 
it's not an exercise in democracy per se because that's what parliament is for.  I have zero doubt that if they held a vote again it would lose badly and they would stay in Europe

 
killface said:
it's not an exercise in democracy per se because that's what parliament is for.  I have zero doubt that if they held a vote again it would lose badly and they would stay in Europe
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Indeed, and many in the UK had buyer's remorse after the referendum as they said they didn't expect it to pass and were casting a protest vote against the establishment (similar to a certain percentage of Trump voters here).

 
squistion said:
Indeed, and many in the UK had buyer's remorse after the referendum as they said they didn't expect it to pass and were casting a protest vote against the establishment (similar to a certain percentage of Trump voters here).
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So people who did something stupid are dealing with the consequences. The horror, who would think stupid actions could have stupid consequences. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
So people who did something stupid are dealing with the consequences. The horror, who would think stupid actions could have stupid consequences. 
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Just like the Trump voters who are negatively impacted by the consequences of the shutdown, not to mention those hurting because of his tariffs.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?
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I suspect there would be a fair amount of protests and violence.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
I'd like to look at the actual ballot, but I was under the impression the vote was to "leave or remain"... 

I'm fairly certain if you listen to all of the #### that is spewed at every election, across the world, throughout the history of time, everyone lobbying for their side is spewing a bunch of ####. 

Do you recall a time in our country when there was an election and someone spewed a ton of lies? Doesn't change the fact that as a voter, you need to do your homework and not take everything at face value. 
Click to expand...
The vote was to leave the EU.  There was nothing about how they had to do it.

 
Now there is a clear picture of what will happen, I don't have a problem with a second vote.  It's the PC equivalent of "Are you sure?" prompt when you tell it to do something really really stupid or uncharacteristic like Rm -rf * from /

ETA:  This sort of thing should NEVER be left to the general populace....ever.  You're seeing why.  So dumb from the beginning.

 
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fantasycurse42 said:
If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?
Click to expand...
Yes, IMO referendums are awful and against the whole parliamentary system.

Btw is this happening?

 
Votig now. Slim chances. the DUP (northern Ireland protestants) have aæready said they'll vote no, so even if all tories vote yes, they'll need some Labour types to vote yes as well.

Not looking encouraging so far

 
Votes are in 432 aginst, 202 in favour. May's deal is gone.

Now the big game begins

Hard Brexit

Remain

Reneg with EU again

It's all up in the air

 
msommer said:
Votes are in 432 aginst, 202 in favour. May's deal is gone.

Now the big game begins

Hard Brexit

Remain

Reneg with EU again

It's all up in the air
Click to expand...
BBC Breaking News‏Verified account @BBCBreaking 9m9 minutes ago

UK PM Theresa May loses MPs’ #BrexitVote on her deal by 432 votes to 202 - the biggest government defeat since 1924

Latest:

http://bbc.in/2DaADGH

 
fantasycurse42 said:
If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?
Click to expand...
Yes.

What this whole thing says to me is something I always knew: the absolute worst form of free government is a referendum.

 
msommer said:
Votes are in 432 aginst, 202 in favour. May's deal is gone.

Now the big game begins

Hard Brexit

Remain

Reneg with EU again

It's all up in the air
Click to expand...
They'll obviously end up remaining. 0% chance of a hard Brexit. 

They've only had 2.5 years to get this sorted out, I guess their political system sucks as bad as ours.

I do expect some chaos over there, I mostly blame the politicians. 

 
ShamrockPride said:
Serious question. Is there actually such thing as conservative comedy or a conservative comedian? As I think about it, I can't say I've ever heard or seen even one.
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Yes, although it is rare. Fox had their own answer to SNL called The 1/2 Hour News Hour which aired only 17 episodes and failed miserably being cancelled after about 6 months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_1/2_Hour_News_Hour

There are a few conservative comedians. Dennis Miller if you actually consider him a comedian. More recently Steven Crowder who participated in a speaking tour of college campuses with Milo Yiannopoulos and other alt right people and has a YouTube channel Louder with Crowder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Crowder

 
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squistion said:
ShamrockPride said:
Serious question. Is there actually such thing as conservative comedy or a conservative comedian? As I think about it, I can't say I've ever heard or seen even one.
Click to expand...
Yes, although it is rare. Fox had their own answer to SNL called The 1/2 Hour News Hour which aired only 17 episodes and failed miserably between cancelled after about 6 months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_1/2_Hour_News_Hour

There are a few conservative comedians. Dennis Miller if you actually consider him a comedian. More recently Steven Crowder who participated in a speaking tour of college campuses with Milo Yiannopoulos and other alt right people and has a YouTube channel Louder with Crowder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Crowder
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Ron White might be answer here.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
They'll obviously end up remaining. 0% chance of a hard Brexit. 

They've only had 2.5 years to get this sorted out, I guess their political system sucks as bad as ours.

I do expect some chaos over there, I mostly blame the politicians. 
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They are leaving March 29.

 
There’s no clear way forward from here. May won’t resign & she will (barely) survive the no confidence vote tomorrow.

As of today they have no tariff system to effect trade in ten weeks. People are stockpiling medicine.

If you thought tribalism was bad here, it’s worse in the UK.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
squistion said:
ShamrockPride said:
Serious question. Is there actually such thing as conservative comedy or a conservative comedian? As I think about it, I can't say I've ever heard or seen even one.
Click to expand...
Yes, although it is rare. Fox had their own answer to SNL called The 1/2 Hour News Hour which aired only 17 episodes and failed miserably between cancelled after about 6 months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_1/2_Hour_News_Hour

There are a few conservative comedians. Dennis Miller if you actually consider him a comedian. More recently Steven Crowder who participated in a speaking tour of college campuses with Milo Yiannopoulos and other alt right people and has a YouTube channel Louder with Crowder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Crowder
Click to expand...
Ron White might be answer here.
Click to expand...
Ron White has carefully crafted a persona that incorporates several attributes associated with conservatives (smoking, drinking, being anti-PC, being pro-death penalty), but he is far from being conservative himself. He produced a documentary about a gay couple from California (directed by Clinton-friend Linda Bloodworth-Thomason) which probably didn't endear him to the Blue Collar Comedy crowd.

 
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