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Changing Scoring in FF? Isn’t it time? (1 Viewer)

TheDirtyWord

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
Once upon a time...someone invented Fantasy Football.  And when they invented it, they had to figure out how players accrued value.  And so they came up with a scoring system.  And for the most part, scoring systems in FFC haven’t changed since save for maybe using fractional scoring.  But largely, it’s a 1 point for every rushing/receiving yard, 1 point for every 25 passing yards game.

And as time wore on, and as analytics permeated the professional sports world, it also permeated the gambling and yes fantasy sports world.  We became smarter about what represented value...dug deeper into discovering trends.  And yet...in 2019, FF largely still revolves around a scoring methodology developed for manual score keeping purposes.

...and while this is just one example, the ESPN FF PPR DRAFT...posted on their front page today showcases a draft consisting of ‘experts’ where the following scenario played out.  Evan Engram was drafted before Patrick Mahomes...

And given how anyone who has ever played FF has figured out ‘wait on QB’...what happened in this draft is fairly plausible.  There is absolutely no ‘demand’ pressure in the supply and demand equation when it comes to QB’s...the most important (by miles) position in football - and perhaps sports.  In FF it’s minimized.  And yet year after year...we go along with it, because...?

Certainly I’m starting to hear more about ‘SuperFlex’...but it’s still the exception rather than the norm.  But it’s 2019...let’s build a new scoring system...one that reflects our vast increase in knowledge, data, compilation, technology that accurately values positions/players...one that is tougher to game.  SuperFlex is one idea.  

What others would you propose?

 
Our league FOR YEARS  has employed:

2 QB starters to make the position MUCH more valuable

QB scoring is 1 per 25 yards for passing and 1 per 25 yards for rushing so as not to elevate the Tim Tebows of the world

For TEs/WRs/RBs we use 1 point per 8 yards rushing/receiving so as to elevate the value of yardage over TD producers

The result is that our first round usually consists of 4 Rbs, 3 Wrs, 2-3 QBs, and occasionally 1 TE

 
TheDirtyWord said:
Once upon a time...someone invented Fantasy Football.  And when they invented it, they had to figure out how players accrued value.  And so they came up with a scoring system.  And for the most part, scoring systems in FFC haven’t changed since save for maybe using fractional scoring.  But largely, it’s a 1 point for every rushing/receiving yard, 1 point for every 25 passing yards game.

And as time wore on, and as analytics permeated the professional sports world, it also permeated the gambling and yes fantasy sports world.  We became smarter about what represented value...dug deeper into discovering trends.  And yet...in 2019, FF largely still revolves around a scoring methodology developed for manual score keeping purposes.

...and while this is just one example, the ESPN FF PPR DRAFT...posted on their front page today showcases a draft consisting of ‘experts’ where the following scenario played out.  Evan Engram was drafted before Patrick Mahomes...

And given how anyone who has ever played FF has figured out ‘wait on QB’...what happened in this draft is fairly plausible.  There is absolutely no ‘demand’ pressure in the supply and demand equation when it comes to QB’s...the most important (by miles) position in football - and perhaps sports.  In FF it’s minimized.  And yet year after year...we go along with it, because...?

Certainly I’m starting to hear more about ‘SuperFlex’...but it’s still the exception rather than the norm.  But it’s 2019...let’s build a new scoring system...one that reflects our vast increase in knowledge, data, compilation, technology that accurately values positions/players...one that is tougher to game.  SuperFlex is one idea.  

What others would you propose?
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Patrick Mahomes in the 5th? Not sure how you can see what I saw last year and have 54 players ranked above him. I'm sorry, but that's just sloppy. I've been comtemplating taking him on the turn at 1&2 with Tyreek Hill.

But the 5th? Are you kidding me? I've seen QBs with lesser seasons go in the 1st Round the following year.

 
Superflex.  The times are already changing, you can almost not find a non SF dynasty startup. I've been playing superflex for 16 years. 

 
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Raptors409 said:
Patrick Mahomes in the 5th? Not sure how you can see what I saw last year and have 54 players ranked above him. I'm sorry, but that's just sloppy. I've been comtemplating taking him on the turn at 1&2 with Tyreek Hill.

But the 5th? Are you kidding me? I've seen QBs with lesser seasons go in the 1st Round the following year.
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That's not unreasonable for expert leagues 

 
Ilov80s said:
That's not unreasonable for expert leagues 
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Then I'd wipe the floor with those "experts". You don't 54 players over the guy who #1 in scoring in every league in the 5th round. That's silly. Granted, this information is helpful to me as I was taking him in the 2nd Round in mock drafts.

But if he's there in the 3rd, I'm taking him. Absolutely shocked at the 5th round ADP considering his value in dynasty.

 
kittenmittens said:
Superflex.  The times are already changing, you can almost not find a non SF dynasty startup. I've been playing superflex for 16 years. 
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It’s not a better solution, it’s just different.  We played Superflex for 15 years in my league and voted it out a few years ago.   It was basically a 2 QB grab in the first 2 rounds of the draft.  Those that didn’t get 2 good to average QBs always struggled, even if they had 2 stud RBs or WRs.  

 
Wildcat said:
It’s not a better solution, it’s just different.  We played Superflex for 15 years in my league and voted it out a few years ago.   It was basically a 2 QB grab in the first 2 rounds of the draft.  Those that didn’t get 2 good to average QBs always struggled, even if they had 2 stud RBs or WRs.  
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🙄

 
Raptors409 said:
Like, people are really taking Damien Williams over Patrick Mahomes? That's expert level stupidity.
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Almost every draft and mock I have seen have Williams over Mahomes-as do I. It's not really close honestly. 

Raptors409 said:
Then I'd wipe the floor with those "experts". You don't 54 players over the guy who #1 in scoring in every league in the 5th round. That's silly. Granted, this information is helpful to me as I was taking him in the 2nd Round in mock drafts.

But if he's there in the 3rd, I'm taking him. Absolutely shocked at the 5th round ADP considering his value in dynasty.
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The issue is all the experts go by the late round QB model. So you take Mahomes in the 3rd and then the next QB won't go off the board untill round 6 or 7 and you will realize you scewed up.

 
Raptors409 said:
Then I'd wipe the floor with those "experts". You don't 54 players over the guy who #1 in scoring in every league in the 5th round. That's silly. Granted, this information is helpful to me as I was taking him in the 2nd Round in mock drafts.

But if he's there in the 3rd, I'm taking him. Absolutely shocked at the 5th round ADP considering his value in dynasty.
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There is more to the value of a player that goes into where to draft him than just pure scoring.  If positions didn't matter at all and you could play just 10 players then your assertion is valid.  However, that is not the case.  Positions matter, scarcity matters, Scoring in relation to others in your position matter.

As an example, kickers and defense usually score quite a bit in relation to TE2, WR3, RB3 but nobody advocates to taking a kicker or a defense until the last few rounds.  Mainly because there is not much difference between K1 and K15. 

 
The main reason that QB's are drafted late now days is three fold.

1.  Projecting season long QB scoring is not easy.

2.  Projecting weekly QB scoring is easy

3.  Even low end options at QB have a high weekly floor.

The first two issues will not change regardless of scoring format.  The last one can be tweaked some to make the point spread between QB3 and QB12 larger and thus make the QB position more important.  The problem is that every year there are one or two outlier performances at QB, but they are not predictable by ADP.  Take Mahomes for instance if he is still QB1 this season but doesn't outscore the field by 6 pts/game again then the high pick was a waste because there will be 12 QB's with in 1 - 3 pts/game of him that were near free in drafts.  

I suppose number 2 above can be addressed by going to superflex or 2 qb leagues as you can only stream QB's from your team then.  But I would likely still take the approach of getting 3 of the last starting QB's and playing match ups weekly.

 
Raptors409 said:
Patrick Mahomes in the 5th? Not sure how you can see what I saw last year and have 54 players ranked above him. I'm sorry, but that's just sloppy. I've been comtemplating taking him on the turn at 1&2 with Tyreek Hill.

But the 5th? Are you kidding me? I've seen QBs with lesser seasons go in the 1st Round the following year.
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That’s how it is in these expert drafts. No “expert” wants to be the first to pull the trigger at QB and ruin their street cred. I’m a wait on QB guy as well but that’s just ridiculous. In most real drafts he’ll go in Round 2, maybe early Round 3 the latest.

 
Gally said:
There is more to the value of a player that goes into where to draft him than just pure scoring.  If positions didn't matter at all and you could play just 10 players then your assertion is valid.  However, that is not the case.  Positions matter, scarcity matters, Scoring in relation to others in your position matter.

As an example, kickers and defense usually score quite a bit in relation to TE2, WR3, RB3 but nobody advocates to taking a kicker or a defense until the last few rounds.  Mainly because there is not much difference between K1 and K15. 
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Man, I get that but Mahomes had 62.2 more points than the next highest scoring QB. That's an extra 4 points a game over the 2nd best QB.  Like come on, Robby Anderson was taken before Mahomes in that "expert draft". That's just dumb. He had a 7.47 PPG advantage over the 12th highest scoring QB last year. So you're getting 4 - 7 more points per position on average and that's assuming that all QB talent has been distributed evenly.

You can have fun reaching for value at RB / WR. I'm going to take the guy who can put up 35+ fantasy points a game. Taking scrubs like Damien Williams (who has never been a bell cow), Chris Godwin, and Allen Robinson over a guy who scored THE MOST POINTS IN EVERY FORMAT. Is a dumb move. I don't care how "deep" Quarterback is. Why am I taking guys based on upside when a guy with the MOST UPSIDE is available.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
That’s how it is in these expert drafts. No “expert” wants to be the first to pull the trigger at QB and ruin their street cred. I’m a wait on QB guy as well but that’s just ridiculous. In most real drafts he’ll go in Round 2, maybe early Round 3 the latest.
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This is the only explanation that makes any rational sense to me. Thanks for explaining. 

 
Raptors409 said:
Patrick Mahomes in the 5th? Not sure how you can see what I saw last year and have 54 players ranked above him. I'm sorry, but that's just sloppy. I've been comtemplating taking him on the turn at 1&2 with Tyreek Hill.

But the 5th? Are you kidding me? I've seen QBs with lesser seasons go in the 1st Round the following year.
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Right, and people have realized the mistake in that.  Sure 5th is probably too late, but I'd have him a lot closer to that than to the 1st.

If Mahomes puts up 50+ TDs again then sure, he's a bargain and is certainly worth of a much higher pick.  But the "experts" realize you don't get any points for last year's TDs, and it's unlikely he has another season like he just had.  Giving Peyton a break for his 49 TD season, there have been 3 times QBs have thrown for ~50 TDs before.  Here are the three seasons that followed up those ~50 TD seasons.

3747 yards, 28 TD, 10 INT (Peyton 2005)
4398 yards, 28 TD, 13 INT (Brady 2009)
4727 yards, 39 TD, 15 INT (Peyton 2014)

The best finish relative to other QBs for a guy following up a ~50 TD season is QB3.

So how sure are we really that Mahomes is going to put up 50 TDs again or even be QB1?  How happy would you be with the above seasons is they came at the cost of your 2nd round pick?

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
That’s how it is in these expert drafts. No “expert” wants to be the first to pull the trigger at QB and ruin their street cred. I’m a wait on QB guy as well but that’s just ridiculous. In most real drafts he’ll go in Round 2, maybe early Round 3 the latest.
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Agreed but QB and TE value is mostly relative to where your leaguemantes draft them. If you take Mahomes in round 3, it seems like a good value. However, if the next QB doesn't come off the board untill round 6, you feel like an idiot because you lost a ton of value with the pick. If you take Mahomes in round 3 and then in round 4 Watson and Luck get picked, then you feel good. It's all relative to the value you and your leaguemates establish. Just think of it like an auction. If you spent $24 for Mahomes you might feel like you got a good deal but if Watson goes for $14 and Rodgers goes for $9, it's clear you way overpaid. 

 
In the FBG championships Mahomes goes in the 3rd/4th. Rodgers and Luck usually go between 5th and 7th. I really don't like very many of the names around the late 3rd early 4th, with some exceptions. I've tried to snag Mahomes a couple times there and have got sniped each time. But so far there has been at least one RB (a position of scarcity) in that area that I like. 

In my big auction redraft we have 6 pts for QBs and Mahomes will go for $40/200 I am guessing. In a snake draft with the same scoring he will go in the 1st. 

4pts for TDs (like FBG) make a big difference. If they were worth 6pts we would see the experts adjust, IMO. 

 
Raptors409 said:
Man, I get that but Mahomes had 62.2 more points than the next highest scoring QB. That's an extra 4 points a game over the 2nd best QB.  Like come on, Robby Anderson was taken before Mahomes in that "expert draft". That's just dumb. He had a 7.47 PPG advantage over the 12th highest scoring QB last year. So you're getting 4 - 7 more points per position on average and that's assuming that all QB talent has been distributed evenly.

You can have fun reaching for value at RB / WR. I'm going to take the guy who can put up 35+ fantasy points a game. Taking scrubs like Damien Williams (who has never been a bell cow), Chris Godwin, and Allen Robinson over a guy who scored THE MOST POINTS IN EVERY FORMAT. Is a dumb move. I don't care how "deep" Quarterback is. Why am I taking guys based on upside when a guy with the MOST UPSIDE is available.
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People said the same thing about Cam Newton after the year he scored 50 tds... Part of the nature of outliers is that they don't repeat.

I have Mahomes projected as the #1 QB but closer to the pack and a late fourth or early 5th seems about right.

 
Ilov80s said:
Agreed but QB and TE value is mostly relative to where your leaguemantes draft them. If you take Mahomes in round 3, it seems like a good value. However, if the next QB doesn't come off the board untill round 6, you feel like an idiot because you lost a ton of value with the pick. If you take Mahomes in round 3 and then in round 4 Watson and Luck get picked, then you feel good. It's all relative to the value you and your leaguemates establish. Just think of it like an auction. If you spent $24 for Mahomes you might feel like you got a good deal but if Watson goes for $14 and Rodgers goes for $9, it's clear you way overpaid. 
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This is a good explanation. You a lawyer or something?

 
Raptors409 said:
Man, I get that but Mahomes had 62.2 more points than the next highest scoring QB. That's an extra 4 points a game over the 2nd best QB.  Like come on, Robby Anderson was taken before Mahomes in that "expert draft". That's just dumb. He had a 7.47 PPG advantage over the 12th highest scoring QB last year. So you're getting 4 - 7 more points per position on average and that's assuming that all QB talent has been distributed evenly.

You can have fun reaching for value at RB / WR. I'm going to take the guy who can put up 35+ fantasy points a game. Taking scrubs like Damien Williams (who has never been a bell cow), Chris Godwin, and Allen Robinson over a guy who scored THE MOST POINTS IN EVERY FORMAT. Is a dumb move. I don't care how "deep" Quarterback is. Why am I taking guys based on upside when a guy with the MOST UPSIDE is available.
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Mahomes had the best single fantasy season by a QB EVER.  That is not repeatable.  The problem with taking him that early is he has to repeat that performance for you to get the value out of it.  Could he do it again?  Yes, but the probability is very low.  The chances are he falls back to the pack and he loses that value and isn't worth taking that early anymore.  Could he play into that value - sure.  Will he play to that value - unlikely.

 
abbottjamesr said:
People said the same thing about Cam Newton after the year he scored 50 tds... Part of the nature of outliers is that they don't repeat.

I have Mahomes projected as the #1 QB but closer to the pack and a late fourth or early 5th seems about right.
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FreeBaGeL said:
Right, and people have realized the mistake in that.  Sure 5th is probably too late, but I'd have him a lot closer to that than to the 1st.

If Mahomes puts up 50+ TDs again then sure, he's a bargain and is certainly worth of a much higher pick.  But the "experts" realize you don't get any points for last year's TDs, and it's unlikely he has another season like he just had.  Giving Peyton a break for his 49 TD season, there have been 3 times QBs have thrown for ~50 TDs before.  Here are the three seasons that followed up those ~50 TD seasons.

3747 yards, 28 TD, 10 INT (Peyton 2005)
4398 yards, 28 TD, 13 INT (Brady 2009)
4727 yards, 39 TD, 15 INT (Peyton 2014)

The best finish relative to other QBs for a guy following up a ~50 TD season is QB3.

So how sure are we really that Mahomes is going to put up 50 TDs again or even be QB1?  How happy would you be with the above seasons is they came at the cost of your 2nd round pick?
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I personally think he's going to clear 35+ passing touchdowns with ease this season. I get that there will be a "book" on him going into next year. But with the way that defense has been watered down and having a freak like Tyreek Hill to throw the ball to.

I can see him picking up right where he left off. I'd take Peyton's 39 TD, 15 INT with my 2nd Round Pick all day. Even moreso with my 3rd / 4th. 

Here's a list of QBs who there for 38 Touchdowns or better since 2013 (5 year window):

Mahomes (50)
Luck (39, 40)
Manning (39, 55)
Rodgers (38)
Brees (39)
Ryan (38)

If anything, Andrew Luck might be the guy to reach for.

 
Raptors409 said:
I personally think he's going to clear 35+ passing touchdowns with ease this season. I get that there will be a "book" on him going into next year. But with the way that defense has been watered down and having a freak like Tyreek Hill to throw the ball to.

I can see him picking up right where he left off. I'd take Peyton's 39 TD, 15 INT with my 2nd Round Pick all day. Even moreso with my 3rd / 4th. 

Here's a list of QBs who there for 38 Touchdowns or better since 2013 (5 year window):

Mahomes (50)
Luck (39, 40)
Manning (39, 55)
Rodgers (38)
Brees (39)
Ryan (38)

If anything, Andrew Luck might be the guy to reach for.
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The point is to not reach.  All of these guys are just as likely to be in that mix so you wait until most are gone and then take the remaining guy.  That gives you the best value on draft day.  Now, will it end up being the best value?  You won't know until it all plays out but at the draft it is your best way to maximize value. 

 
Raptors409 said:
I personally think he's going to clear 35+ passing touchdowns with ease this season. I get that there will be a "book" on him going into next year. But with the way that defense has been watered down and having a freak like Tyreek Hill to throw the ball to.

I can see him picking up right where he left off. I'd take Peyton's 39 TD, 15 INT with my 2nd Round Pick all day. Even moreso with my 3rd / 4th. 
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That was good for 22.7 fantasy ppg that year for Peyton, which is almost exactly what Cam Newton (22.65) put up last year as QB8.

Mahomes does get some rushing production that Peyton didn't, but still...

 
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Ilov80s said:
No,way cooler than that. I am a teacher.  :cool:
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Word up. I am getting my masters in education right now so hopefully I will be a gainfully employed teacher soon. My mom always told me I should be a lawyer, but I was like "but then I'd have to work with other lawyers."

 
It's about positional point differential.

You don't compare Andrew Luck to Saquon Barkley. You compare Luck to Ryan and Barkley to Melvin Gordon (I'm just throwing out names, this isn't rife with statistical analysis).

If you expect Mahomes to throw 50+ TDs again, then of course you draft him high. He scored almost 100 points more than the #2 QB, Matt Ryan last year. But if you think he returns to a more reasonable 35-ish, then he's lumped into a group of QBs that can get you roughly the same points.

But at the other skill positions, the drop-off "curve" is much more pronounced. If you miss out on a solid RB/WR/TE, you're going to have to scramble to make up the difference versus those teams that did.

I won a league while starting Tom Brady nearly the entire season last year because the other skill players had a much more pronounced differential.

 
Raptors409 said:
Man, I get that but Mahomes had 62.2 more points than the next highest scoring QB. That's an extra 4 points a game over the 2nd best QB.  Like come on, Robby Anderson was taken before Mahomes in that "expert draft". That's just dumb. He had a 7.47 PPG advantage over the 12th highest scoring QB last year. So you're getting 4 - 7 more points per position on average and that's assuming that all QB talent has been distributed evenly.

You can have fun reaching for value at RB / WR. I'm going to take the guy who can put up 35+ fantasy points a game. Taking scrubs like Damien Williams (who has never been a bell cow), Chris Godwin, and Allen Robinson over a guy who scored THE MOST POINTS IN EVERY FORMAT. Is a dumb move. I don't care how "deep" Quarterback is. Why am I taking guys based on upside when a guy with the MOST UPSIDE is available.
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Regression is a thing.  Positional / draft value is also a thing.  These things mean there's a very good chance that chasing Mahomes's absurd 2018 performance is a mistake. 

 
TheDirtyWord said:
Evan Engram was drafted before Patrick Mahomes...
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2QB solves this.

There's no other way to balance out the positions. You can try boosting the value of QB-related points (6 point TDs, bonuses for long passes, double points for rushing, etc.) but all that does is inflate the value of the #1 QB while making the #9 QB far less valuable than the #9 WR or the #9 RB.

 
[scooter] said:
2QB solves this.

There's no other way to balance out the positions. You can try boosting the value of QB-related points (6 point TDs, bonuses for long passes, double points for rushing, etc.) but all that does is inflate the value of the #1 QB while making the #9 QB far less valuable than the #9 WR or the #9 RB.
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A problem with requiring 2qb, 24 start across the league. This leaves only 8 teams with a back up that's an actual starting NFL qb. I would only join a start 2 qb league with 8 teams or less participating.

 
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cloppbeast said:
[scooter] said:
2QB solves this.

There's no other way to balance out the positions. You can try boosting the value of QB-related points (6 point TDs, bonuses for long passes, double points for rushing, etc.) but all that does is inflate the value of the #1 QB while making the #9 QB far less valuable than the #9 WR or the #9 RB.
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A problem with requiring 2qb, 24 start across the league. This leaves only 8 teams with a back up that's an actual starting NFL qb. I would only join a start 2 qb league with 8 teams or less participating.
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10 is fine for 2QB. I've been doing it for years.

12 can work with a superflex. Just make passing TDs 4 points and reduce yards to 1 per 25 or 30.

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Regression is a thing.  Positional / draft value is also a thing.  These things mean there's a very good chance that chasing Mahomes's absurd 2018 performance is a mistake. 
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I don't think chasing Mahomes even at 1.01 overall would be a mistake. I've seen 1st Rounders bust ad nauseum. Better to take "your guy" and live with it than to take who is the best "value". When Mahomes rips for 5 touchdowns and 350 yards, you're winning your week.

Realistically, 'm wiling to burn a 3rd - 4th round pick on Mahomes. What do you THINK his floor is in that offense? Assuming he plays 16 games, he's not scoring less than 32 Touchdowns. Which is the ceiling for guys like Big Ben, Brees, Ryan, etc.

I rode dude to a championship last year and I'd rather saddle up with him again than reach for a Mark Ingram, Lamar Miller, or Julian Edelman because that's what I'm "supposed" to do. Did you have the privilege of owning him last year? Imagine having him in a stack with Tyreek Hill. I'm not passing up that opportunity.

 
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Raptors409 said:
I don't think chasing Mahomes even at 1.01 overall would be a mistake. I've seen 1st Rounders bust ad nauseum. Better to take "your guy" and live with it than to take who is the best "value". When Mahomes rips for 5 touchdowns and 350 yards, you're winning your week.
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What were the starting lineup requirements?

 
Raptors409 said:
Realistically, 'm wiling to burn a 3rd - 4th round pick on Mahomes. What do you THINK his floor is in that offense? Assuming he plays 16 games, he's not scoring less than 32 Touchdowns. Which is the ceiling for guys like Big Ben, Brees, Ryan, etc.
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I'll take any reasonable stakes that at least one of Big Ben, Brees, Ryan will exceed your alleged ceiling for them in 2019.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I'll take any reasonable stakes that at least one of Big Ben, Brees, Ryan will exceed your alleged ceiling for them in 2019.
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And that's great, I'd probably give you -200 odds if I was a linemaker. But you can't feasibly roster all 3 of those guys. Outcomes ranged from 20 TDs to 38 TDs. Father time is going to catch up on these guys at some point. Last 3 years:

Roethlisberger: 34, 28, 29 TDs
Ryan: 38, 20, 35 TDs
Brees: 37, 23, 32 TDs


Mahomes is a 23 year old stallion with the best WR in the game. 

 
Manster said:
Easy....start 2 QB's and do away with ppr. 
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Doing both of these is too drastic. Top QB and RB’s would really be the only true studs in that format. 

The OP’s entire premise seems built on the fact that it’s weird how QB’s are so crucial in the NFL but devalued heavily in FF. 

Using that same logic, why would you want RB’s to become such a hot commodity by using non-PPR when they’re pretty devalued in the NFL compared to other skill positions?

I’d say a superflex PPR format makes the most sense. QB’s get a huge boost and RB’s lose the most value in that format compared to the old school non-ppr 1QB format. And the studs at each position are all still very valuable. 

 
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Raptors409 said:
And that's great, I'd probably give you -200 odds if I was a linemaker. But you can't feasibly roster all 3 of those guys. Outcomes ranged from 20 TDs to 38 TDs. Father time is going to catch up on these guys at some point. Last 3 years:

Roethlisberger: 34, 28, 29 TDs
Ryan: 38, 20, 35 TDs
Brees: 37, 23, 32 TDs


Mahomes is a 23 year old stallion with the best WR in the game. 
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So was Matt Stafford at one point.

 
let me throw in another perspective. FF isn't about emulating the NFL, right? it's suppose to be fantasy. With QB's, you know at the start of the season who will be the 32 starters and with very very exceptional situations it'll always be those 32 starters. The other skill positions are always up for grabs. Even the best of the best can go down with injury on any give sunday more so than a QB and many teams have a carousel at one of these skill positions that we can speculate on and reach on guys that could be the next big thing.

for this reason QB's being devalued in fantasy seems like a natural, logical thing despite they being so valuable in the real NFL. they mind as well be like kickers. set it and forget it for the season unless the leg falls off. and bye week.

 
In a long standing league that gives 6 pts  for TDs (pass/rush/rev) and bonus points for distance:

0-9 6 pts

10-39 9 pts 

40+ 12 pts

1/2 ppr, everything else run of the mill. DD rates Mahomes at #7. Watson #31, Luck #32.  Projected TDs are 38, 31, 32 respectively. 

So it does something without having to go SF. Top 12 QBs are typically drafted anywhere from the first to the fifth. 

 
Raptors409 said:
When Mahomes rips for 5 touchdowns and 350 yards, you're winning your week.
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He only did that once last year (four other QBs also did it once last year), and it's certainly no guarantee you're winning that week anyway if you're one round worse than your opponent at every other skill position because you took a QB way too early.  

Raptors409 said:
Did you have the privilege of owning him last year? 
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I did.  I got knocked out in 1st round of the playoffs when he put up a completely mediocre performance in week 15. :shrug:  

 
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