timschochet
Footballguy
Basically yeah. Just ignore them. Who cares? Ignore them and they’ll go away eventually. Much better than complaining about them.
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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Koya
- Start date
AAABatteries
Footballguy
If someone is being crappy towards me in real life I avoid being around that person - I’m not going going to question why you come here like others have, you have every right to post here and give your opinion on things. What I will question is why you and some others don’t put people on ignore and if necessary report them. It’s two features of the board and they should be used. If you don’t respond, eventually they would stop. People who act like it’s a badge of honor that they don’t report and don’t use the ignore feature but then spend a lot of their time arguing with the same people and responding to the same people are a big part of this problem. And FTR, I feel this way about folks on both sides - there’s two guys “on the left” who I’ve had on ignore for a long time, all they do is argue with you. It’s tiresome - if you and they and others actually care about having a PSF please do all of us a favor and put each other on ignore or just don’t respond.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Hmm. I think it’s fair to say the messengers are *the* problem because they are the ones making decisions about which messages to communicate and how to communicate them. You even raised concerns about hostility toward folks who defend Trump in even just the slightest way. Leaving aside the merits of that position, that is a criticism of the messengers—those hostile toward Trump defenders—not the message.
I can understand your frustration with those messengers who are hostile to the values you support. That’s a perfectly normal reaction, I think. Look, Trump is a bigot. He’s dumb as a rock. He doesn’t just lie—his whole *brand* has been built around deception and false promises and lies since forever. And of course he has abused his power and engaged in criminal activity to protect this brand. These are well-established facts, corroborated and verified time and time again. There are no alternative facts here. That folks choose to look past all of this (and in many cases embrace it) is disturbing.
And, it’s why I support Joe shutting down this whole thing because the messengers are so willfully disconnected from reality and/or defective in their value system that they have foreclosed on any possibility of civility and thoughtful discussion. The messengers are *the* problem because they are peddling disinformation every day that has caused significant harm.
Just my .02.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This is a well thought out post and you make good points. I reallt don"t want to distract from this thread talking about how this forum is moderated. I have had issues with them, but moderators are not the root cause of the problem.
And if the issue was just a few posters, ignore would work. There are a couple I do not respond too, but the problems here are much deeper. It is this culture in this forum, and really which exists in society wrt politics, which demonizes the other side and to a point which is really sub-human. The other side is viewed as ignorant, brain dead, trolls, whiney, racist, uncaring, greedy, etc. If it was a conservatively dominated forum there would be a similar list like unpatriotic, commies, etc.
Just look at colbalt's response above. It says to me unless you despise Trump and want to remove his lying, corrupt, bigotted butt out of office, you are the problem and deserve scorn. That is hostile and creates a difficult environment to have a productive good-natured duscussion. It is not just a few people on either side
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
If there wasn't a more picture perfect post to support the case for Joe shutting down the forum in this entire thread, this one's it.
Congratulations.
*As far as the bolded section...your lack of willpower to refrain from the dumb as rocks part is a great example of why this place is rotten. You're how old dude? And the most mature, acceptable form of saying Trump is below your presidential intelligence standards you are capable of coming up with is "dumb as rocks"? Do better.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
No offense intended man as I would say this to myself - just because you can’t have civil and thoughtful discussion with Trump supporters doesn’t mean others can’t. We have proof of that in SID and some others. I think Joe is asking that the rest of us just chill - pointing out inaccuracies or maybe something you think is misleading can still be done in a somewhat civil way - and then move on. Or, as I suggest to Jon - just put them on ignore and don’t engage. It will be really crappy by all of us if we can’t take what the owner says to heart and we get the forum closed just because we disagree on stuff. Let’s all do better.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Posts like these are exactly why it probably will get shut down. Some of these replies are not helping the cause at all.bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
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I seriously think that some people are addicted to sites such as this and see this forum as an integral part of their being.
After all, this is one of those "safe spaces" that they go in order to be assured that they beliefs are justified....like a church or something....a place to mingle with like-minded people.
After the 2016 election, where they found out that there IS a Satan...they flocked to this "safe space'" to comfort each other and assure themselves that they had been right the entire time and that they will, someday, be proven right.
And now, when there is the remote possibility of their "armageddon" looming, they need this place more than ever.
They need a place to go to be reinforced by like-minded people in order to affirm that their faith had not been wasted or misplaced during the past decade.
What will they do, who will they talk to if, or when, they find out that the administration for which they sold their soul, turns out to be guilty of what they have been accused?
They will need each other to deny and deflect and relying on the Left-leaning Media, may not be enough.
They need to reassure and comfort each other.
They need a place to go to reassure themselves that, even when 2020 proves to be only halftime, the country will someday, be reacquired by the youth currently being indoctrinated in our schools and that they won't die while the Supreme Court is in a conservative majority and following the US Constitution.
You can't take this from them.
After all, this is one of those "safe spaces" that they go in order to be assured that they beliefs are justified....like a church or something....a place to mingle with like-minded people.
After the 2016 election, where they found out that there IS a Satan...they flocked to this "safe space'" to comfort each other and assure themselves that they had been right the entire time and that they will, someday, be proven right.
And now, when there is the remote possibility of their "armageddon" looming, they need this place more than ever.
They need a place to go to be reinforced by like-minded people in order to affirm that their faith had not been wasted or misplaced during the past decade.
What will they do, who will they talk to if, or when, they find out that the administration for which they sold their soul, turns out to be guilty of what they have been accused?
They will need each other to deny and deflect and relying on the Left-leaning Media, may not be enough.
They need to reassure and comfort each other.
They need a place to go to reassure themselves that, even when 2020 proves to be only halftime, the country will someday, be reacquired by the youth currently being indoctrinated in our schools and that they won't die while the Supreme Court is in a conservative majority and following the US Constitution.
You can't take this from them.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
I agree that cobalts response isn’t what Joe wants and he also doesn’t want you and Johnny to reply to him saying it’s an echo chamber - let’s all do better or just ignore people. There’s nothing wrong with you putting cobalt on ignore if you feel that strongly about it. For my part I will try to not be part of the problem and point out to folks where we can do better.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
This type of post isn’t helping either - now that you’ve had your say hopefully people will not reply or engage.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Also "trolling" titles don`t help. At times we had had titles with 30-40 words in them that are meant to cause division.
GoBirds
Footballguy
Isn’t it great, the regulars doing all they can to get in some parting shots.
Out of control.
This is getting lost on the last page and it would be better to focus on this then where the discussion is now going, so I will repost:
Tim you hit this on page 1 (" Simply put: discuss the issue and not the poster") and later you noted how there are two perspectives:
1. Trump-Haters: "If only we eliminated a couple trolls"
2. Non-Trump Haters: "This place is hostile towards us"
@Cowboysfan8 made this excellent post on page 4:
"Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.
All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.
Nothings ever going to change in here."
Now there were 10 people who liked that post. Maybe 10 does not seem like a lot, but in a forum who is 87 percent anti-Trump that represents nearly every non-Trump hater left.
Now I would probably be identified by group one above as the number 1 "troll" on this forum. But what do I troll about? I point out the hostility directed towards posters including myself that is constantly on display in this forum. That apparently is trolling.
Now my desire has never been to not kill this forum or create a distraction from the usual trump-hating discussions. My desire is to have a forum which treats all posters in a more excellent manner.
So we have people like @Cowboysfan8, @rockaction, @Da Guru, @Shula-holic, @Ramblin Wreck,
@knowledge dropper, @Widbil83, @HellToupee, and @Don't Noonan who will tell you this place is hostile towards them. You have the entire FFA who will tell you they don't like the environment here. Joe has friends that tell him they would not post here.
So are all these people imagining how terrible this place treats opposing opinions? You really think banning a few posters like me changes anything?
All I am is the messenger. You may be tired of hearing me (and I know you are), but I am not speaking just for myself. Having all these people man-up and not be a 'woman' is NOT the solution. Treating people with respect IS the answer. Having a forum which is good nature and welcoming to all non-hateful viewpoints IS the answer.
So this forum can collectively stay in denial and be gone in a couple of weeks. Or more people can start to acknowledge the real root of the problem and be more vigilant in weeding it out. Be more excellent folks. It is as simple as that.
Tim you hit this on page 1 (" Simply put: discuss the issue and not the poster") and later you noted how there are two perspectives:
1. Trump-Haters: "If only we eliminated a couple trolls"
2. Non-Trump Haters: "This place is hostile towards us"
@Cowboysfan8 made this excellent post on page 4:
"Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.
All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.
Nothings ever going to change in here."
Now there were 10 people who liked that post. Maybe 10 does not seem like a lot, but in a forum who is 87 percent anti-Trump that represents nearly every non-Trump hater left.
Now I would probably be identified by group one above as the number 1 "troll" on this forum. But what do I troll about? I point out the hostility directed towards posters including myself that is constantly on display in this forum. That apparently is trolling.
Now my desire has never been to not kill this forum or create a distraction from the usual trump-hating discussions. My desire is to have a forum which treats all posters in a more excellent manner.
So we have people like @Cowboysfan8, @rockaction, @Da Guru, @Shula-holic, @Ramblin Wreck,
@knowledge dropper, @Widbil83, @HellToupee, and @Don't Noonan who will tell you this place is hostile towards them. You have the entire FFA who will tell you they don't like the environment here. Joe has friends that tell him they would not post here.
So are all these people imagining how terrible this place treats opposing opinions? You really think banning a few posters like me changes anything?
All I am is the messenger. You may be tired of hearing me (and I know you are), but I am not speaking just for myself. Having all these people man-up and not be a 'woman' is NOT the solution. Treating people with respect IS the answer. Having a forum which is good nature and welcoming to all non-hateful viewpoints IS the answer.
So this forum can collectively stay in denial and be gone in a couple of weeks. Or more people can start to acknowledge the real root of the problem and be more vigilant in weeding it out. Be more excellent folks. It is as simple as that.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Come on man - some of us want to keep posting - your comment is fair but maybe take it to PMs? Please.Isn’t it great, the regulars doing all they can to get in some parting shots.
Out of control.
sho nuff
Footballguy
That comment seems more of part of the problem and its often repeated here. Little hit and run post not doing anything more than discussing other people and of questioned likely wouldn't return to thoughtfully answer anything.
I do think there are some that would almost want to see this place shut down. Read elsewhere about this and the reasoning is being misstated. It will be a badhe of honor to some if they get it shut down.
There are people that cant adapt and change. Im not perfect...but when called out by mods and asked to change a behavior...I do my beat to do just that. Some get suspended...and return only to fall right back in the same exact behavior.
I know I am guilty if responding to hostility with hostility. But it is not the 13 percent who control the environment in this forum, it is the 87 percent. All the people I listed are rationale well-intentioned people who are not trolls and do not deserve scorn. And there are others I missed like GiBirds above who are also included and one above I would not include.
GoBirds
Footballguy
I mean, I see you are trying to be level headed board cop here now that it’s in the brink but are we supposed to buy that this rational behavior all of the sudden will last this time? Once the moderation backs off again you and the regulars wont be taking the usual cheap shots at those not falling in line? Come on man, there’s nothing healthy about this safe environment for “one side” that’s been created in here. There’s a reason people say don’t ever bring up politics or religion at a party.....the ugliness that has festered in here for years is the perfect example. The reality is what is the end game for this sub forum? There’s no way it works.....after the upcoming election there will either be epic meltdowns over 4 more years or the left spiking the ball as hard as they can in anyone’s face they can and the place implodes either way. It was just a bad idea all around and watching the reactions in this thread is truly sad. That said, I do appreciate you being more civil than the norm in here but have to be honest with you.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Its not always a response though. Just as often the hostility comes from them. I don't recall saying they control
lt...but are just as much a part of it.
I womt comment in any individuals...but there are often things posted that are not rational by them and others...often things that are very much trolling posts. I think you know this too. And many of them would claim I am a troll...i have been accused as much. Its not a oke way street jon. Anyone claiming its all one group just hasn't been paying full attention.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
There will always be people who “misbehave”, I’m just asking if people can do a combination of the good suggestions - be excellent, ignore, don’t engage, be civil, and considerate. I truly don’t understand why you and Jon and others on the right who have taken some abuse don’t put people on ignore and/or don’t reply. If you guys are truly interested in having these discussions with non-Trump supporters then you will do that instead of engaging. And same goes for them. I come to the FFA to be educated and to laugh - it’s done that in spades for 15 years, nobody comes here to read people arguing with each other. Please just help those of us who care about keeping the place around do so.
GoBirds
Footballguy
So now you criticize posters just like you say isn’t supposed to happen, not surprising and another great example of what’s wrong in here. Just because others don’t spend all day in here like you may doesn’t make them hit and run posters, sorry you are having trouble with that.
I am not saying it is just a one-way street. What I am saying it is absurd to think that the hostile environment in the forum is the product of s few right-wing trolls, as has been expressed by a dozen posters already.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I responded to a post go birds amd about the posts and not the person. And my post was spot on. Hell I didnt even talk about one side or the other.So now you criticize posters just like you say isn’t supposed to happen, not surprising and another great example of what’s wrong in here. Just because others don’t spend all day in here like you may doesn’t make them hit and run posters, sorry you are having trouble with that.
sho nuff
Footballguy
As I said...anyone who thinks its all one side is not paying attention. That includes those half dozen thinking the way you mentioned. But the long posts dod read like excusing a group of people for their own behavior.
GoBirds
Footballguy
I agree on some of this, many in here I avoid and one on ignore that I just viewed the first post in about a year and it’s same old same old. I commend your effort and agree on the coolness and value of the FFA....while we disagree on this forum do enjoy catching you in the other threads.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Look man, if you care about the PSF you will stop a lot of your back and forth with posters - I can’t make it more plain than that. Please.
I am pointing out who is in control and pointing out how to fix it. If you take it as excusing one side, you are missing the point. This forum is on its last legs, digging in and making it about sides is the exact answer which will kill the forum.
The Commish
Footballguy
Joe is in control. We are all in the same boat in terms of this forum's success. I agree 100% with the bold and wish both you guys would stop doing that.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I would agree...and I have out a different poster on ignore because of that. But I won’t always just take the abuse either and defended my posts (again, by posting about what was sai and not who said it). It was never going to be a back and forth more than what was already said.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Jon...Im going to leave it with this post. What this and the recent posts came off like...is telling one side to stop everything. And excusing the others of their behavior just because there is more of one side. I don't think that is even close to an accurate representation of what is happening, nor what will fix this. Your posts came off very much as digging in and making it about sides.
I will also say...tim probably takes more abuse than anyone else on this board...probably more than the list of people you described combined. How often does he lash out name calling and just getting super hostile?
No one group is "in control" . We all control our own actions.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
That’s because that’s the whole point. I was responding to the false idea that it’s just the message(s), as though they can be somehow divorced from the messenger. These posts don’t write themselves.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
I would love to have a forum where we can discuss politics in a rational manner with substance as the focus. But when posters persist in engaging in consistent distortion and disconnection from reality, such productive discussion simply is not possible. I wish it were different. But I think Joe’s recent communications have made me reconsider what’s possible and what’s not.
It is quite possible and really not that difficult. It just takes a bit more thought to do so. The easy button is to call the poster a troll or a parrot
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF. Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it. You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt. It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.
sho nuff
Footballguy
This I definitely agree with...well with pretty much the whole post...but the bolded being kind of the key point.I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF. Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it. You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt. It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
That’s a really good distinction by analogy. I think in the case of Brady I think in most cases that would simply reflect poor analysis and easily discussed on its merits. But if you had someone systematically saying Brady doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF because he’s a punter and punters shouldn’t be in the HOF then it becomes an impossible starting point. And when that same poster continues to engage in discussions by misrepresenting facts and it becomes a systematic effort to distort reality, it becomes a messenger problem.I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF. Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it. You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt. It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.
GoBirds
Footballguy
Wow that didn't take you long, while trying to act like you know the solution you are in reality the problem with posts like this.I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF. Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it. You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt. It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.
The Commish
Footballguy
Well, with this analogy there isn't a moral component assigned to Brady or the Brady supporter. If you said "Brady is a lying cheater and anyone who supports him is a lying cheater" then we're onto something. I don't think its wise to assign morality of one person to another. However, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that while a Brady supporter might not be a lying cheater, they certainly enable it through their active support of Brady. That's a bit of self reflection we should all take into account and accept as part of our position, but instead of doing that when it's brought up people change it to "why are you calling me a lying cheater too!!!!!!" That's uncool...goes back to one of my earlier comments about reading the posts and accepting them for what they are and not what you want them to be in order to fit a preconceived notion. I can't count how many "but you implied it" posts I've had thrown at me. Generally speaking, I say what I mean. There is rarely a need to read into my posts, so when one does I assume it's in an attempt to ignore what I'm saying so they don't have to consider it.I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF. Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it. You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt. It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Sure, and report it, ignore them, whatever - I think Joe wants us to not make it personal. To me the easiest way to do that is put people on ignore but I know that’s not popular with some folks.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The mocking of those who aren't really on either "side" has gotten a little out of hand as well.
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/773102-tulsi-gabbard-2020/?do=findComment&comment=22257912
The above post is a good example, and it's one I see pretty often now, where those who voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 are basically told that they are full of ####. The implication is always that those who say they voted for Johnson really voted for Trump, but are now embarrassed to say it. It can make those people not want to talk about politics because they are basically going to be called liars by someone if they happen to mention that they were a Johnson voter in '16. And that kind of thing is kind of symbolic of the attitude in PSF, which far too often is basically "I am going to mock and/or denigrate those who aren't in lock step with what I believe and do."
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/773102-tulsi-gabbard-2020/?do=findComment&comment=22257912
The above post is a good example, and it's one I see pretty often now, where those who voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 are basically told that they are full of ####. The implication is always that those who say they voted for Johnson really voted for Trump, but are now embarrassed to say it. It can make those people not want to talk about politics because they are basically going to be called liars by someone if they happen to mention that they were a Johnson voter in '16. And that kind of thing is kind of symbolic of the attitude in PSF, which far too often is basically "I am going to mock and/or denigrate those who aren't in lock step with what I believe and do."
Is this considered "trolling"....or humor?
...or can humor by one, be considered trolling by another?
...or can humor by one, be considered trolling by another?
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BassNBrew
Footballguy
Yes. That’s exactly what Joe and MT asked us to do. No whining. Who cares if they are being crappy to you. Be the bigger person.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Just read the board and even this thread. It's not going to change.
That one guy
Footballguy
I know what’s about to follow is a tad hypocritical to my “ignore the noise” approach, but...
Good lord, I am having a really hard time believing some of you are grown adults! There’s no way y’all don’t have enough life experience by now to realize nothing is fair to your desires and that you need to operate within whatever parameters provided (ie: Joe’s rules) and couch all other complaints because that’s just how it is! No one is dying because an opinion contrary to yours has been expressed. Puppies won’t die because incorrect info was posted on an internet message board. Your self worth has not been challenged because some anonymous poster on the internet message board typed perceived rude words at you.
It’s impossible that this PeeWee Herman style back and forth is how the general you communicate in real life. I’m starting to understand why Joe is so discouraged, it’s bizarro world in here sometimes with the so called discourse. Stop poking people! Stop worrying about any inconsistencies you think someone exhibits from topic to topic! Stop being petty with complete strangers! Stop expecting people to alter course and express a changed mind on topics! Present your thought/argument/fact/opinion, reply to others in kind, move on. I’ll be damned pissed if this subforum disappears, it’s been a great resource for info
/rant
Good lord, I am having a really hard time believing some of you are grown adults! There’s no way y’all don’t have enough life experience by now to realize nothing is fair to your desires and that you need to operate within whatever parameters provided (ie: Joe’s rules) and couch all other complaints because that’s just how it is! No one is dying because an opinion contrary to yours has been expressed. Puppies won’t die because incorrect info was posted on an internet message board. Your self worth has not been challenged because some anonymous poster on the internet message board typed perceived rude words at you.
It’s impossible that this PeeWee Herman style back and forth is how the general you communicate in real life. I’m starting to understand why Joe is so discouraged, it’s bizarro world in here sometimes with the so called discourse. Stop poking people! Stop worrying about any inconsistencies you think someone exhibits from topic to topic! Stop being petty with complete strangers! Stop expecting people to alter course and express a changed mind on topics! Present your thought/argument/fact/opinion, reply to others in kind, move on. I’ll be damned pissed if this subforum disappears, it’s been a great resource for info
/rant
Mile High
Footballguy
Just throwing out my two cents:
This place is a lot more enjoyable if you use at as a place to learn rather than as a place to win an argument. I don't know how much it would change behavior, but I wonder if we could drive the point home by putting something in big bold letters next to the "Submit Reply" button such as: "Winning" an argument on the internet gets you exactly nothing of any real value.
In addition to this, for many years I used the ignore feature sparingly. Recently I've gone an ignoring spree, it's made this place a lot more enjoyable. I like the idea someone else proposed of allowing mods to force users to ignore each other.
This place is a lot more enjoyable if you use at as a place to learn rather than as a place to win an argument. I don't know how much it would change behavior, but I wonder if we could drive the point home by putting something in big bold letters next to the "Submit Reply" button such as: "Winning" an argument on the internet gets you exactly nothing of any real value.
In addition to this, for many years I used the ignore feature sparingly. Recently I've gone an ignoring spree, it's made this place a lot more enjoyable. I like the idea someone else proposed of allowing mods to force users to ignore each other.
KCitons
Footballguy
I won't quote Opie's post. But there is a value in this forum that some people fail to see. We've heard from quite a few people that don't post very often. We all come here for information and explanation on political topics. That information is disseminated from multiple different media outlets and presented in these threads. We could all find that information on our own. But, what we can't do, is ask questions we have about that information if we read it on CNN.com or FoxNews.com. I'm guilty of calling this place an echo chamber. Which it is simply because most people echo the same viewpoint. It doesn't always mean that it's the wrong viewpoint. But, I try to target my question on a subject to a person I trust, who will approach it from an honest stance. I've butted heads with lots of posters here over one subject, but asked them to help me understand other subjects better. I'm not sure where I would be able to do that if this sub forum was shut down and it's why I asked @Joe Bryant to ponder whether the world is better with it.
