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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

@jon_mx

Don’t know why I’m up. Insomnia I guess. But I thought your post was excellent and you really pinpointed one of the big issues here. But in addition to that issue that you were narrowly focused on there are 3 others that are also causing the problem: 

1. Posts that are intended to cause confrontation and discord, rather than serious  discussion and debate. 

2. Posts in which people whine and complain about how poorly they or their side are being treated in this forum, by other posters, by the moderators, etc. Whether or not these complaints are justified or not is completely beside the point. 

3. Excessive, unnecessary reporting of other people. 

You eliminate these problems along with one you mentioned and we’re all good here. 

Those problems all go away if people are more excellent.  And really, if there is a serious problem, is it wrong to whine about it?  Forgive this over the top analogy, but that is like blaming the me-too movement for complaining about rape too much.  This forum is very much hostile towards anyone who defends Trump in even the slightest way.  That is the root of the problem.  The messenger IS NOT the problem.  

Edited by jon_mx

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16 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

And really, if there is a serious problem, is it wrong to whine about it?  

In this forum? About other posters or the moderators? Yeah. It’s wrong regardless. No place for it. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

In this forum? About other posters or the moderators? Yeah. It’s wrong regardless. No place for it. 

So people should just shut up and accept other people being crappy towards them?  And you wonder why this place is going to be shut down.  

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

So people should just shut up and accept other people being crappy towards them?  And you wonder why this place is going to be shut down.  

Basically yeah. Just ignore them. Who cares? Ignore them and they’ll go away eventually. Much better than complaining about them. 

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59 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

So people should just shut up and accept other people being crappy towards them?  And you wonder why this place is going to be shut down.  

If someone is being crappy towards me in real life I avoid being around that person - I’m not going going to question why you come here like others have, you have every right to post here and give your opinion on things.  What I will question is why you and some others don’t put people on ignore and if necessary report them.  It’s two features of the board and they should be used.  If you don’t respond, eventually they would stop.  People who act like it’s a badge of honor that they don’t report and don’t use the ignore feature but then spend a lot of their time arguing with the same people and responding to the same people are a big part of this problem.  And FTR, I feel this way about folks on both sides - there’s two guys “on the left” who I’ve had on ignore for a long time, all they do is argue with you.  It’s tiresome - if you and they and others actually care about having a PSF please do all of us a favor and put each other on ignore or just don’t respond.  

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3 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Those problems all go away if people are more excellent.  And really, if there is a serious problem, is it wrong to whine about it?  Forgive this over the top analogy, but that is like blaming the me-too movement for complaining about rape too much.  This forum is very much hostile towards anyone who defends Trump in even the slightest way.  That is the root of the problem.  The messenger IS NOT the problem.  

Hmm.  I think it’s fair to say the messengers are *the* problem because they are the ones making decisions about which messages to communicate and how to communicate them.  You even raised concerns about hostility toward folks who defend Trump in even just the slightest way.  Leaving aside the merits of that position, that is a criticism of the messengers—those hostile toward Trump defenders—not the message.

I can understand your frustration with those messengers who are hostile to the values you support.  That’s a perfectly normal reaction, I think.  Look, Trump is a bigot.  He’s dumb as a rock.  He doesn’t just lie—his whole *brand* has been built around deception and false promises and lies since forever.  And of course he has abused his power and engaged in criminal activity to protect this brand.  These are well-established facts, corroborated and verified time and time again.  There are no alternative facts here.  That folks choose to look past all of this (and in many cases embrace it) is disturbing.  

And, it’s why I support Joe shutting down this whole thing because the messengers are so willfully disconnected from reality and/or defective in their value system that they have foreclosed on any possibility of civility and thoughtful discussion.  The messengers are *the* problem because they are peddling disinformation every day that has caused significant harm.

Just my .02.

Edited by cobalt_27

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11 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

If someone is being crappy towards me in real life I avoid being around that person - I’m not going going to question why you come here like others have, you have every right to post here and give your opinion on things.  What I will question is why you and some others don’t put people on ignore and if necessary report them.  It’s two features of the board and they should be used.  If you don’t respond, eventually they would stop.  People who act like it’s a badge of honor that they don’t report and don’t use the ignore feature but then spend a lot of their time arguing with the same people and responding to the same people are a big part of this problem.  And FTR, I feel this way about folks on both sides - there’s two guys “on the left” who I’ve had on ignore for a long time, all they do is argue with you.  It’s tiresome - if you and they and others actually care about having a PSF please do all of us a favor and put each other on ignore or just don’t respond.  

This is a well thought out post and you make good points.  I reallt don"t want to distract from this thread talking about how this forum is moderated.  I have had issues with them, but moderators are not the root cause of the problem. 

And if the issue was just a few posters, ignore would work.  There are a couple I do not respond too, but the problems here are much deeper.  It is this culture in this forum, and really which exists in society wrt politics, which demonizes the other side and to a point which is really sub-human.  The other side is viewed as  ignorant, brain dead, trolls, whiney, racist, uncaring, greedy, etc.   If it was a conservatively dominated forum there would be a similar list like unpatriotic, commies, etc.  

Just look at colbalt's response above.  It says to me unless you despise Trump and want to remove his lying, corrupt, bigotted butt out of office, you are the problem and deserve scorn.  That is hostile and creates a difficult environment to have a productive good-natured duscussion.   It is not just a few people on either side

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9 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Hmm.  I think it’s fair to say the messengers are *the* problem because they are the ones making decisions about which messages to communicate and how to communicate them.  You even raised concerns about hostility toward folks who defend Trump in even just the slightest way.  Leaving aside the merits of that position, that is a criticism of the messengers—those hostile toward Trump defenders—not the message.

I can understand your frustration with those messengers who are hostile to the values you support.  That’s a perfectly normal reaction, I think.  Look, Trump is a bigot.  He’s dumb as a rock.  He doesn’t just lie—his whole *brand* has been built around deception and false promises and lies since forever.  And of course he has abused his power and engaged in criminal activity to protect this brand.  These are well-established facts, corroborated and verified time and time again.  There are no alternative facts here.  That folks choose to look past all of this (and in many cases embrace it) is disturbing.  

And, it’s why I support Joe shutting down this whole thing because the messengers are so willfully disconnected from reality and/or defective in their value system that they have foreclosed on any possibility of civility and thoughtful discussion.  The messengers are *the* problem because they are peddling bull#### every day that has caused significant harm.

Just my .02.

If there wasn't a more picture perfect post to support the case for Joe shutting down the forum in this entire thread, this one's it.

Congratulations.

*As far as the bolded section...your lack of willpower to refrain from the dumb as rocks part is a great example of why this place is rotten. You're how old dude? And the most mature, acceptable form of saying Trump is below your presidential intelligence standards you are capable of coming up with is "dumb as rocks"? Do better.

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11 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Hmm.  I think it’s fair to say the messengers are *the* problem because they are the ones making decisions about which messages to communicate and how to communicate them.  You even raised concerns about hostility toward folks who defend Trump in even just the slightest way.  Leaving aside the merits of that position, that is a criticism of the messengers—those hostile toward Trump defenders—not the message.

I can understand your frustration with those messengers who are hostile to the values you support.  That’s a perfectly normal reaction, I think.  Look, Trump is a bigot.  He’s dumb as a rock.  He doesn’t just lie—his whole *brand* has been built around deception and false promises and lies since forever.  And of course he has abused his power and engaged in criminal activity to protect this brand.  These are well-established facts, corroborated and verified time and time again.  There are no alternative facts here.  That folks choose to look past all of this (and in many cases embrace it) is disturbing.  

And, it’s why I support Joe shutting down this whole thing because the messengers are so willfully disconnected from reality and/or defective in their value system that they have foreclosed on any possibility of civility and thoughtful discussion.  The messengers are *the* problem because they are peddling bull#### every day that has caused significant harm.

Just my .02.

No offense intended man as I would say this to myself - just because you can’t have civil and thoughtful discussion with Trump supporters doesn’t mean others can’t.  We have proof of that in SID and some others.  I think Joe is asking that the rest of us just chill - pointing out inaccuracies or maybe something you think is misleading can still be done in a somewhat civil way - and then move on.  Or, as I suggest to Jon - just put them on ignore and don’t engage.  It will be really crappy by all of us if we can’t take what the owner says to heart and we get the forum closed just because we disagree on stuff.  Let’s all do better. 

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11 hours ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

might as well shut it down joe......as far as im concerned trump supporters are a giant problem....i was a gop voter for awhile....never again...giant stain on our country and when trump goes back to being nothing but a twitter troll only the hardcore politic guys will care...fire it back uo then

Posts like these are exactly why it probably will get shut down. Some of these replies are not helping the cause at all.

Edited by Summer Wheat

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I seriously think that some people are addicted to sites such as this and see this forum as an integral part of their being.
After all, this is one of those "safe spaces" that they go in order to be assured that they beliefs are justified....like a church or something....a place to mingle with like-minded people.

After the 2016 election, where they found out that there IS a Satan...they flocked to this "safe space'" to comfort each other and assure themselves that they had been right the entire time and that they will, someday, be proven right.

And now, when there is the remote possibility of their "armageddon" looming, they need this place more than ever. 
They need a place to go to be reinforced by like-minded people in order to affirm that their faith had not been wasted or misplaced during the past decade.
What will they do, who will they talk to if, or when, they find out that the administration for which they sold their soul, turns out to be guilty of what they have been accused?

They will need each other to deny and deflect and relying on the Left-leaning Media, may not be enough.
They need to reassure and comfort each other.

They need a place to go to reassure themselves that, even when 2020 proves to be only halftime, the country will someday, be reacquired by the youth currently being indoctrinated in our schools and that they won't die while the Supreme Court is in a conservative  majority and following the US Constitution.

You can't take this from them.

 

Edited by Opie
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4 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

This is a well thought out post and you make good points.  I reallt don"t want to distract from this thread talking about how this forum is moderated.  I have had issues with them, but moderators are not the root cause of the problem. 

And if the issue was just a few posters, ignore would work.  There are a couple I do not respond too, but the problems here are much deeper.  It is this culture in this forum, and really which exists in society wrt politics, which demonizes the other side and to a point which is really sub-human.  The other side is viewed as  ignorant, brain dead, trolls, whiney, racist, uncaring, greedy, etc.   If it was a conservatively dominated forum there would be a similar list like unpatriotic, commies, etc.  

Just look at colbalt's response above.  It says to me unless you despise Trump and want to remove his lying, corrupt, bigotted butt out of office, you are the problem and deserve scorn.  That is hostile and creates a difficult environment to have a productive good-natured duscussion.   It is not just a few people on either side

I agree that cobalts response isn’t what Joe wants and he also doesn’t want you and Johnny to reply to him saying it’s an echo chamber - let’s all do better or just ignore people.  There’s nothing wrong with you putting cobalt on ignore if you feel that strongly about it.  For my part I will try to not be part of the problem and point out to folks where we can do better.

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2 minutes ago, Opie said:

I seriously think that some people are addicted to sites such as this and see this forum as an integral part of their being.
After all, this is one of those "safe spaces" that they go in order to be assured that they beliefs are justified....like a church or something....a place to mingle with like-minded people.

After the 2016 election, where they found out that there IS a Satan...they flocked to this "safe space'" to comfort each other and assure themselves that they had been right the entire time and that they will, someday, be proven right.

And now, when there is the remote possibility of their "armageddon" looming, they need this place more than ever. 
They need a place to go to be reinforced by like-minded people in order to affirm that their faith had not been wasted or misplaced during the past decade.

They need a place to go to reassure themselves that, even when 2020 proves to be only halftime, that the country will someday, be reacquired by the youth currently being indoctrinated in our schools and that they won't die while the Supreme Court is conservative and following the US Constitution.

You can't take this from them.

 

This type of post isn’t helping either - now that you’ve had your say hopefully people will not reply or engage. 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

@jon_mx

Don’t know why I’m up. Insomnia I guess. But I thought your post was excellent and you really pinpointed one of the big issues here. But in addition to that issue that you were narrowly focused on there are 3 others that are also causing the problem: 

1. Posts that are intended to cause confrontation and discord, rather than serious  discussion and debate. 

2. Posts in which people whine and complain about how poorly they or their side are being treated in this forum, by other posters, by the moderators, etc. Whether or not these complaints are justified or not is completely beside the point. 

3. Excessive, unnecessary reporting of other people. 

You eliminate these problems along with one you mentioned and we’re all good here. 

Also "trolling" titles don`t help.   At times we had had titles with 30-40 words in them that are meant to cause division.

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6 minutes ago, ShamrockPride said:

If there wasn't a more picture perfect post to support the case for Joe shutting down the forum in this entire thread, this one's it.

Congratulations.

*As far as the bolded section...your lack of willpower to refrain from the dumb as rocks part is a great example of why this place is rotten. You're how old dude? And the most mature, acceptable form of saying Trump is below your presidential intelligence standards you are capable of coming up with is "dumb as rocks"? Do better.

Isn’t it great, the regulars doing all they can to get in some parting shots. :hophead:

 

Out of control. 

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This is getting lost on the last page and it would be better to focus on this then where the discussion is now going, so I will repost:

 

Tim you hit this on page 1 (" Simply put: discuss the issue and not the poster") and later you noted how there are two perspectives:

1.  Trump-Haters:  "If only we eliminated a couple trolls"

2.  Non-Trump Haters:  "This place is hostile towards us"

@Cowboysfan8 made this excellent post on page 4:

"Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here."

Now there were 10 people who liked that post.  Maybe 10 does not seem like a lot, but in a forum who is 87 percent anti-Trump that represents nearly every non-Trump hater left.  

Now I would probably be identified by group one above as the number 1 "troll" on this forum.  But what do I troll about?  I point out the hostility directed towards posters including myself that is constantly on display in this forum.  That apparently is trolling.

Now my desire has never been to not kill this forum or create a distraction from the usual trump-hating discussions.  My desire is to have a forum which treats all posters in a more excellent manner.   

So we have people like @Cowboysfan8, @rockaction, @Da Guru, @Shula-holic, @Ramblin Wreck, 

@knowledge dropper, @Widbil83, @HellToupee, and @Don't Noonan who will tell you this place is hostile towards them.  You have the entire FFA who will tell you they don't like the environment here.  Joe has friends that tell him they would not post here. 

So are all these people imagining how terrible this place treats opposing opinions?  You really think banning a few posters like me changes anything? 

All I am is the messenger.  You may be tired of hearing me (and I know you are), but I am not speaking just for myself.  Having all these people man-up and not be a 'woman' is NOT the solution.  Treating people with respect IS the answer.  Having a forum which is good nature and welcoming to all non-hateful viewpoints IS the answer.

So this forum can collectively stay in denial and be gone in a couple of weeks.  Or more people can start to acknowledge the real root of the problem and be more vigilant in weeding it out.  Be more excellent folks.  It is as simple as that.  

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The problem is some of those you listed are as guilty of being hostile to others as they claim others are hostile to them.  They are as responsible for the environment here as anyone else is.

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5 minutes ago, GoBirds said:

Isn’t it great, the regulars doing all they can to get in some parting shots. :hophead:

 

Out of control. 

Come on man - some of us want to keep posting - your comment is fair but maybe take it to PMs?  Please.

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Come on man - some of us want to keep posting - your comment is fair but maybe take it to PMs?  Please.

That comment seems more of part of the problem and its often repeated here.  Little hit and run post not doing anything more than discussing other people and of questioned likely wouldn't return to thoughtfully answer anything.  
 

I do think there are some that would almost want to see this place shut down.  Read elsewhere about this and the reasoning is being misstated.  It will be a badhe of honor to some if they get it shut down.

There are people that cant adapt and change.  Im not perfect...but when called out by mods and asked to change a behavior...I do my beat to do just that.  Some get suspended...and return only to  fall right back in the same exact behavior.

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2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

The problem is some of those you listed are as guilty of being hostile to others as they claim others are hostile to them.  They are as responsible for the environment here as anyone else is.

I know I am guilty if responding to hostility with hostility.  But it is not the 13 percent who control the environment in this forum, it is the 87 percent.  All the people I listed are rationale well-intentioned people who are not trolls and do not deserve scorn.  And there are others I missed like GiBirds above who are also included and one above I would not include. 

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Come on man - some of us want to keep posting - your comment is fair but maybe take it to PMs?  Please.

I mean, I see you are trying to be level headed board cop here now that it’s in the brink but are we supposed to buy that this rational behavior all of the sudden will last this time? Once the moderation backs off again you and the regulars wont be taking the usual cheap shots at those not falling in line? Come on man, there’s nothing healthy about this safe environment for “one side” that’s been created in here. There’s a reason people say don’t ever bring up politics or religion at a party.....the ugliness that has festered in here for years is the perfect example. The reality is what is the end game for this sub forum? There’s no way it works.....after the upcoming election there will either be epic meltdowns over 4 more years or the left spiking the ball as hard as they can in anyone’s face they can and the place implodes either way. It was just a bad idea all around and watching the reactions in this thread is truly sad. That said, I do appreciate you being more civil than the norm in here but have to be honest with you. 

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Just now, jon_mx said:

I know I am guilty if responding to hostility with hostility.  But it is not the 13 percent who control the environment in this forum, it is the 87 percent.  All the people I listed are rationale well-intentioned people who are not trolls and do not deserve scorn.  And there are others I missed like GiBirds above who are also included and one above I would not include. 

Its not always a response though.  Just as often the hostility comes from them.  I don't recall saying they control

lt...but are just as much a part of it.

I womt comment in any individuals...but there are often things posted that are not rational by them and others...often things  that are very much trolling posts.  I think you know this too.  And many of them would claim I am a troll...i have been accused as much.  Its not a oke way street jon.  Anyone  claiming its all one group just hasn't been paying full attention.

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Just now, GoBirds said:

I mean, I see you are trying to be level headed board cop here now that it’s in the brink but are we supposed to buy that this rational behavior all of the sudden will last this time? Once the moderation backs off again you and the regulars wont be taking the usual cheap shots at those not falling in line? Come on man, there’s nothing healthy about this safe environment for “one side” that’s been created in here. There’s a reason people say don’t ever bring up politics or religion at a party.....the ugliness that has festered in here for years is the perfect example. The reality is what is the end game for this sub forum? There’s no way it works.....after the upcoming election there will either be epic meltdowns over 4 more years or the left spiking the ball as hard as they can in anyone’s face they can and the place implodes either way. It was just a bad idea all around and watching the reactions in this thread is truly sad. That said, I do appreciate you being more civil than the norm in here but have to be honest with you. 

There will always be people who “misbehave”, I’m just asking if people can do a combination of the good suggestions - be excellent, ignore, don’t engage, be civil, and considerate.  I truly don’t understand why you and Jon and others on the right who have taken some abuse don’t put people on ignore and/or don’t reply.  If you guys are truly interested in having these discussions with non-Trump supporters then you will do that instead of engaging.  And same goes for them.  I come to the FFA to be educated and to laugh - it’s done that in spades for 15 years, nobody comes here to read people arguing with each other.  Please just help those of us who care about keeping the place around do so.

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7 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

That comment seems more of part of the problem and its often repeated here.  Little hit and run post not doing anything more than discussing other people and of questioned likely wouldn't return to thoughtfully answer anything.  
 

I do think there are some that would almost want to see this place shut down.  Read elsewhere about this and the reasoning is being misstated.  It will be a badhe of honor to some if they get it shut down.

There are people that cant adapt and change.  Im not perfect...but when called out by mods and asked to change a behavior...I do my beat to do just that.  Some get suspended...and return only to  fall right back in the same exact behavior.

So now you criticize posters just like you say isn’t supposed to happen, not surprising and another great example of what’s wrong in here. Just because others don’t spend all day in here like you may doesn’t make them hit and run posters, sorry you are having trouble with that.  :potkettle:

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Just now, sho nuff said:

Its not always a response though.  Just as often the hostility comes from them.  I don't recall saying they control

lt...but are just as much a part of it.

I womt comment in any individuals...but there are often things posted that are not rational by them and others...often things  that are very much trolling posts.  I think you know this too.  And many of them would claim I am a troll...i have been accused as much.  Its not a oke way street jon.  Anyone  claiming its all one group just hasn't been paying full attention.

I am not saying it is just a one-way street.  What I am saying it is absurd to think that the hostile environment in the forum is the product of s few right-wing trolls, as has been expressed by a dozen posters already.

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1 minute ago, GoBirds said:

So now you criticize posters just like you say isn’t supposed to happen, not surprising and another great example of what’s wrong in here. Just because others don’t spend all day in here like you may doesn’t make them hit and run posters, sorry you are having trouble with that.  :potkettle:

I responded to a post go birds amd about the posts and not the person. And my post was spot on.  Hell I didnt even talk about one side or the other.

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am not saying it is just a one-way street.  What I am saying it is absurd to think that the hostile environment in the forum is the product of s few right-wing trolls, as has been expressed by a dozen posters already.

As I said...anyone who thinks its all one side is not paying attention.  That includes those half dozen thinking the way you mentioned.  But the long posts dod read like excusing a group of people for their own behavior.  

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Just now, AAABatteries said:

There will always be people who “misbehave”, I’m just asking if people can do a combination of the good suggestions - be excellent, ignore, don’t engage, be civil, and considerate.  I truly don’t understand why you and Jon and others on the right who have taken some abuse don’t put people on ignore and/or don’t reply.  If you guys are truly interested in having these discussions with non-Trump supporters then you will do that instead of engaging.  And same goes for them.  I come to the FFA to be educated and to laugh - it’s done that in spades for 15 years, nobody comes here to read people arguing with each other.  Please just help those of us who care about keeping the place around do so.

I agree on some of this, many in here I avoid and one on ignore that I just viewed the first post in about a year and it’s same old same old. I commend your effort and agree on the coolness and value of the FFA....while we disagree on this forum do enjoy catching you in the other threads. :thumbup:

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8 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I responded to a post go birds amd about the posts and not the person. And my post was spot on.  Hell I didnt even talk about one side or the other.

Look man, if you care about the PSF you will stop a lot of your back and forth with posters - I can’t make it more plain than that.  Please.

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5 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

As I said...anyone who thinks its all one side is not paying attention.  That includes those half dozen thinking the way you mentioned.  But the long posts dod read like excusing a group of people for their own behavior.  

I am pointing out who is in control and pointing out how to fix it.  If you take it as excusing one side, you are missing the point.  This forum is on its last legs, digging in and making it about sides is the exact answer which will kill the forum. 

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Just now, jon_mx said:

I am pointing out who is in control and pointing out how to fix it.  If you take it as excusing one side, you are missing the point.  This forum is on its last legs, digging in and making it about sides is the exact answer which will kill the forum. 

Joe is in control.  We are all in the same boat in terms of this forum's success.  I agree 100% with the bold and wish both you guys would stop doing that.

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11 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Look man, if you care about the PSF you will stop a lot of your back and forth with posters - I can’t make it more plain than that.  Please.

I would agree...and I have out a different poster on ignore because of that.  But I won’t always just take the abuse either and defended my posts (again, by posting about what was sai and not who said it).  It was never going to be a back and forth more than what was already said.

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10 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am pointing out who is in control and pointing out how to fix it.  If you take it as excusing one side, you are missing the point.  This forum is on its last legs, digging in and making it about sides is the exact answer which will kill the forum. 

Jon...Im going to leave it with this post.  What this and the recent posts came off like...is telling one side to stop everything.  And excusing the others of their behavior just because there is more of one side.  I don't think that is even close to an accurate representation of what is happening, nor what will fix this.  Your posts came off very much as digging in and making it about sides.

 

I will also say...tim probably takes more abuse than anyone else on this board...probably more than the list of people you described combined.  How often does he lash out name calling and just getting super hostile?

 

No one group is "in control" .  We all control our own actions.

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1 hour ago, ShamrockPride said:

If there wasn't a more picture perfect post to support the case for Joe shutting down the forum in this entire thread, this one's it.

That’s because that’s the whole point.  I was responding to the false idea that it’s just the message(s), as though they can be somehow divorced from the messenger. These posts don’t write themselves. 

Edited by cobalt_27

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24 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am pointing out who is in control and pointing out how to fix it.  If you take it as excusing one side, you are missing the point.  This forum is on its last legs, digging in and making it about sides is the exact answer which will kill the forum. 

I would love to have a forum where we can discuss politics in a rational manner with substance as the focus. But when posters persist in engaging in consistent distortion and disconnection from reality, such productive discussion simply is not possible.  I wish it were different.  But I think Joe’s recent communications have made me reconsider what’s possible and what’s not.  

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7 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

That’s because that’s the whole point.  I was responding to the false idea that it’s just the message(s), as though they can be somehow divorced from the messenger. These posts don’t write themselves. 

It is quite possible and really not that difficult.  It just takes a bit more thought to do so.  The easy button is to call the poster a troll or a parrot

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7 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

That’s because that’s the whole point.  I was responding to the false idea that it’s just the message(s), as though they can be somehow divorced from the messenger. These posts don’t write themselves. 

I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF.  Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it.  You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt.  It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.  :) 

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Simplest thing in my mind is to not take this place so damn serious. Most of us will never set eyes upon each other, and if someone takes a little personal jab at a post, shrug it off and keep on keeping on. 

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2 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF.  Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it.  You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt.  It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.  :) 

This I definitely agree with...well with pretty much the whole post...but the bolded being kind of the key point.

Edited by sho nuff

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Just now, AAABatteries said:

I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF.  Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it.  You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt.  It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.  :) 

That’s a really good distinction by analogy.  I think in the case of Brady I think in most cases that would simply reflect poor analysis and easily discussed on its merits.  But if you had someone systematically saying Brady doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF because he’s a punter and punters shouldn’t be in the HOF then it becomes an impossible starting point.  And when that same poster continues to engage in discussions by misrepresenting facts and it becomes a systematic effort to distort reality, it becomes a messenger problem. 

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13 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF.  Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it.  You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt.  It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.  :) 

Wow that didn't take you long, while trying to act like you know the solution you are in reality the problem with posts like this. 

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9 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I think the difference here is some of us place a morality coefficient to the message which seems to happen with frequency in the PSF.  Meaning, if I say Tom Brady isn’t a HOF’er you (rightly) would think I was nuts for holding that viewpoint but you wouldn’t consider me a bad person for it.  You would somewhat divorce the message from the messenger. I think what they want is for people to discuss positions and state why position X is bad or wrong or whatever, without saying position X is bad and anybody who thinks it is a moron or morally bankrupt.  It’s fine to think it, just don’t post it.  :) 

Well, with this analogy there isn't a moral component assigned to Brady or the Brady supporter.  If you said "Brady is a lying cheater and anyone who supports him is a lying cheater" then we're onto something.  I don't think its wise to assign morality of one person to another.  However, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that while a Brady supporter might not be a lying cheater, they certainly enable it through their active support of Brady.  That's a bit of self reflection we should all take into account and accept as part of our position, but instead of doing that when it's brought up people change it to "why are you calling me a lying cheater too!!!!!!"  That's uncool...goes back to one of my earlier comments about reading the posts and accepting them for what they are and not what you want them to be in order to fit a preconceived notion.  I can't count how many "but you implied it" posts I've had thrown at me.  Generally speaking, I say what I mean.  There is rarely a need to read into my posts, so when one does I assume it's in an attempt to ignore what I'm saying so they don't have to consider it.

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1 hour ago, Summer Wheat said:

Posts like these are exactly why it probably will get shut down. Some of these replies are not helping the cause at all.

yeah my bad.....im out of psf posting......see ya....

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11 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

That’s a really good distinction by analogy.  I think in the case of Brady I think in most cases that would simply reflect poor analysis and easily discussed on its merits.  But if you had someone systematically saying Brady doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF because he’s a punter and punters shouldn’t be in the HOF then it becomes an impossible starting point.  And when that same poster continues to engage in discussions by misrepresenting facts and it becomes a systematic effort to distort reality, it becomes a messenger problem. 

Sure, and report it, ignore them, whatever - I think Joe wants us to not make it personal.  To me the easiest way to do that is put people on ignore but I know that’s not popular with some folks.

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The mocking of those who aren't really on either "side" has gotten a little out of hand as well. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/773102-tulsi-gabbard-2020/?do=findComment&comment=22257912

The above post is a good example, and it's one I see pretty often now, where those who voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 are basically told that they are full of ####.  The implication is always that those who say they voted for Johnson really voted for Trump, but are now embarrassed to say it.  It can make those people not want to talk about politics because they are basically going to be called liars by someone if they happen to mention that they were a Johnson voter in '16.  And that kind of thing is kind of symbolic of the attitude in PSF, which far too often is basically "I am going to mock and/or denigrate those who aren't in lock step with what I believe and do." 

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4 hours ago, jon_mx said:

So people should just shut up and accept other people being crappy towards them?  And you wonder why this place is going to be shut down.  

Yes. That’s exactly what Joe and MT asked us to do. No whining. Who cares if they are being crappy to you. Be the bigger person. 

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I know what’s about to follow is a tad hypocritical to my “ignore the noise” approach, but...

Good lord, I am having a really hard time believing some of you are grown adults!  There’s no way y’all don’t have enough life experience by now to realize nothing is fair to your desires and that you need to operate within whatever parameters provided (ie: Joe’s rules) and couch all other complaints because that’s just how it is!  No one is dying because an opinion contrary to yours has been expressed.  Puppies won’t die because incorrect info was posted on an internet message board.  Your self worth has not been challenged because some anonymous poster on the internet message board typed perceived rude words at you.

It’s impossible that this PeeWee Herman style back and forth is how the general you communicate in real life.  I’m starting to understand why Joe is so discouraged, it’s bizarro world in here sometimes with the so called discourse.  Stop poking people!  Stop worrying about any inconsistencies you think someone exhibits from topic to topic!  Stop being petty with complete strangers!  Stop expecting people to alter course and express a changed mind on topics!  Present your thought/argument/fact/opinion, reply to others in kind, move on.  I’ll be damned pissed if this subforum disappears, it’s been a great resource for info

/rant

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