Here's John Heilemann saying the same "Bernie bro conspiracy theory" on National TV... https://twitter.com/ChickHearnBern/status/1224446928278020102?s=09Conspiracy theory stuff here folks. Again, I run in mainstream Democratic circles and spend a LOT of time dealing with corporate politics. Not a single Democrat has ever suggested they don’t want Bernie to win the nomination because he “might win”. Conversely, every single Dem is focused #1 on beating Trump, regardless of who the nominee is. Do many prefer other Democratic nominees? Absolutley! As do i, for reasons that having nothing to do from fearing a Bernie Presidency.
You are simply reiterating Bernie-bro talking points and passing along fake conspiracy theories.
Exactly.Conspiracy theory stuff here folks. Again, I run in mainstream Democratic circles and spend a LOT of time dealing with corporate politics. Not a single Democrat has ever suggested they don’t want Bernie to win the nomination because he “might win”. Conversely, every single Dem is focused #1 on beating Trump, regardless of who the nominee is. Do many prefer other Democratic nominees? Absolutley! As do i, for reasons that having nothing to do from fearing a Bernie Presidency.
You are simply reiterating Bernie-bro talking points and passing along fake conspiracy theories.
If only Hillary would have honeymooned in the Soviet Union back in the 80’s like Bernie this would have been closer.Bernie was quite a bit larger favorite in head to head polls versus Trump than Hillary was right up to the end IIRC.
He’s got his people.
She could have partied with Donald in Moscow, secured some loans.If only Hillary would have honeymooned in the Soviet Union back in the 80’s like Bernie this would have been closer.
The corruption is vast and incomparable in terms of magnitude and quantity, I do think it’s a sea change from the past. IMO. And I think this could become the norm.Water restricted toilets and efficient light bulbs seem to be at risk.
I agree, hopefully she packs her Steele Dossier before she heads out.She could have partied with Donald in Moscow, secured some loans.
Not just some, most. And they are bringing friends. Who runs against Trump matters. I fear Democrats are underestimating him again.Sorry, I agree. What I meant is that seems like a pretty obvious lesson to draw from the 2016 election, but some folks are intent on making the exact same mistake in 2020.
No, but you're a dyed in the wool lefty. This article isn't whether you care or not. I'm sure you don't. It's what tens of millions of people up for grabs do care about, though.This isn't new information, the article is almost a year old. Clearly people have decided they don't care. I certainly don't.
It's a parallel to the rise and transformation of right wing media.The corruption is vast and incomparable in terms of magnitude and quantity, I do think it’s a sea change from the past. IMO. And I think this could become the norm.Water restricted toilets and efficient light bulbs seem to be at risk.
They’re not underestimating Trump, they’re underestimating the American public. We will not elect a socialist for President. I’m not saying not ever, but not now.Not just some, most. And they are bringing friends. Who runs against Trump matters. I fear Democrats are underestimating him again.
If we elect a socialist for president, and I have the scratch, I'm personally leaving. It's not a threat nor an angry thing, it will just be that I no longer can tolerate a plurality of citizen's views about how to best organize my own labor and capital before taxes.They’re not underestimating Trump, they’re underestimating the American public. We will not elect a socialist for President. I’m not saying not ever, but not now.
Seriously?If we elect a socialist for president, and I have the scratch, I'm personally leaving. It's not a threat nor an angry thing, it will just be that I no longer can tolerate a plurality of citizen's views about how to best organize my own labor and capital before taxes.
Dead serious. I'm not talking about now with Sanders. Just, if a more serious strongman or woman socialist comes along and gets elected, I'll be likely to go. I think the big thing would be financing. I'm not sure I could withstand sticker shock on any expatriation right now. I'd have to save up for a few years. I'm not sure where I'd go even remotely close to America, but there are some places in mind.Seriously?
The public doesn’t think about these things too deeply. You don’t need to make that kind of assumption.
Even then, if that happens and we get Madame President Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, public sentiment will still be in favor of capitalism.Dead serious. I'm not talking about now with Sanders. Just, if a more serious strongman or woman socialist comes along and gets elected, I'll be likely to go. I think the big thing would be financing. I'm not sure I could withstand sticker shock on any expatriation right now. I'd have to save up for a few years. I'm not sure where I'd go even remotely close to America, but there are some places in mind.
Thanks for the encouragement, and I won't leave if Sanders gets elected, like I said before you posted. There's enough with Bernie to stay, and as you point out so astutely, reasons beyond the rule of the proletariat. I'm with you on that. But as fatguy and roadkill and others have pointed out, this country's young tack very much to the left. I'm not sure how, when they come of age, this will all get sorted out.Seriously @rockaction- if Bernie wins, how many voters do you think chose him because they thought “I agree with his view about how to organize labor”??? 5% if you’re lucky. More likely the reasons will be:
1. He’s not Trump.
2. Somebody new and different.
3. Free healthcare!
4. Make my student loan go away!
5. Lets show those sons of #####es!
6. #### the Republicans!
Etc. You don’t need to leave, sir.
You think she's hated now, wait until she turns 35. I'm sure by then the hate will x10.Even then, if that happens and we get Madame President Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, public sentiment will still be in favor of capitalism.
That's likely to be so, even with an Alexandria Ocasio Cortez as pres. Perhaps I'm being too drastic. But there's a definite strain on the left, it's very popular, and it's in the youth. We shall see.Even then, if that happens and we get Madame President Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, public sentiment will still be in favor of capitalism.
You won't have to pack. As I have said since 2015, the American public will not elect an avowed Socialist, and that still holds true in 2020.If we elect a socialist for president, and I have the scratch, I'm personally leaving. It's not a threat nor an angry thing, it will just be that I no longer can tolerate a plurality of citizen's views about how to best organize my own labor and capital before taxes.
Yeah, also the likelihood of me being able to suffer the sticker shock is prohibitive. I'm not tilting at windmills, and if there's a windfall I'd leave if the conditions were met, but my seat is pretty cemented in America should it have me.You won't have to pack. As I have said since 2015, the American public will not elected an avowed Socialist, and that still holds true in 2020.
Add to that, Sanders was not vetted in 2016 because the Hillary people and the Democratic establishment didn't take him that seriously, so ammunition such as from the OP about his past was never used - but you can assured the gloves will be off now.
Well said. I'm just thinking that from what I've been reading (and it indeed is limited) he hasn't backed own an inch from thoughts like these and stuff like this.1. Personally I think Sanders would be a disaster as president and should not be the winner of the Dem primaries
2. Castro and Ortega were nothing to admire
3. That said, particularly given what has transpired in the past thre years, I'm much more intersted in what he says now, than what he said 35 years ago
I'm very much nitpicking your point, but democratic socialism is a distinct form of socialism, distinguished from rule by the proletariat (communism) and different than syndicalism and anarcho-socialism.A leopard never changes its spots no matter how hard he tries to cover it up.
This goes to my larger point that there is no such thing as "Democratic Socialism". That's just a smoke screen to fool the rubes since "I'm a Socialist" won't work. Sanders always has been and will always be a pure Socialist/Marxist. That's ALWAYS been the goal. He just has to dress it up to make it look like it isn't, but once they're in, it's over. Socialism has never worked out for anyone other than the 1% of the Party that controls it.
Very good response! Thanks!I'm very much nitpicking your point, but democratic socialism is a distinct form of socialism, distinguished from rule by the proletariat (communism) and different than syndicalism and anarcho-socialism.
Your broader point is taken. People slip under the radar as socialist and then expand what they'll really do once in office. And my guess is that democratic socialism does inevitably become plutocracy or rule by the proletariat and, in practice, leads to the wealth and power of only the 1% that controls it like almost every other nation-state experiment with socialism.
I always hear this but I’m not sure how much I believe it. In 2016, Dems’ two biggest attacks against Sanders were his pro-gun votes and his praise of leftist strongmen several decades ago. He had to talk about gun manufacturer liability at nearly every debate and they played a video of him praising Castro at one debate as well. None of it really stuck.Add to that, Sanders was not vetted in 2016 because the Hillary people and the Democratic establishment didn't take him that seriously, so ammunition such as from the OP about his past was never used - but you can assured the gloves will be off now.
Some of us didn't really care to tune into the Democratic debates of 2016. You can bet this will be deployed in the general, where it will have much greater effect on Sanders. Let's put it this way: I'm reasonably informed. Lesser than some of you men and women, but reasonably. Some people aren't. When they hear the word Castro and see that clip, the Bern is immediately sunk in Florida and other places who aren't that blue.If there’s some juicy opposition research out there that’s bound to sink his campaign, it seems like it should’ve been deployed by now, no?
For sure, I was responding to squis’ implication that Sanders won’t be nominated because the DNC treated him with kid gloves last time. I don’t quite agree with that.Some of us didn't really care to tune into the Democratic debates of 2016. You can bet this will be deployed in the general, where it will have much greater effect on Sanders.
I would say people were willing to overlook a personal disposition about stardom and women and that people won't be as willing to forget the political as political w/r/t to this.It will absolutely be deployed in the general and make some people uneasy but I have no idea what the electoral effects will be. How many people will view this as definitely worse than all of Trump’s baggage?
This is a dumb question and a false dichotomy and a gotcha moment only suckers fall for. One need not reject a kitty one has theoretically already paid into. That the government runs a Ponzi scheme with these two programs matters; people have already contributed.For the OMG socialism crowd, will you forego Social Security and Medicare when the time comes? How about your parents, are they beneficiaries? How would you classify those programs on a capitalism - socialism spectrum? Maybe this should be better asked in the hypocrisy thread.
And what’s wrong with his position? Someone might disagree with abortion but how could you support only allowing abortion for females 30-40 years old?This is the same guy who said the Boston Bomber should be allowed to vote last year. Those ads will be fun.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/04/23/bernie-sanders-voting-rights-boston-marathon-bomber-buttigieg-harris/3548232002/
Yeah I'll take mine back today I've paid in. They can even have it interest free. I don't want any of it.This is a dumb question and a false dichotomy and a gotcha moment only suckers fall for. One need not reject a kitty one has theoretically already paid into. That the government runs a Ponzi scheme with these two programs matters; people have already contributed.
Nice try.
I don't even agree with his position. I was just accepting it for argument's sake.I guess socialism doesnt mean what I think it means
The first three minutes of the clip are reasonable. He's talking about installing dictatorships and Latin America and the way in which that isn't efficacious. It's at about eight minutes in when he starts defending Castro and Ortega that do it.@rockaction I watched 3 min of the clip. What’s he wrong about?
Don’t agree with him on a lot of things but damn he can debate. It will either be him or Pete for me.
Do you think we’ll have executions in Central Park?This ludicrous. His chances are/should be over.
Just run this on a loop.
https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-2020-cuba-castro-reagan-resurfaced-interview-1339527
Right around here just start
Move where? Mexico?If we elect a socialist for president, and I have the scratch, I'm personally leaving. It's not a threat nor an angry thing, it will just be that I no longer can tolerate a plurality of citizen's views about how to best organize my own labor and capital before taxes.
So Bloomberg, Warren, and HRC are actually Republicans?A leopard never changes its spots no matter how hard he tries to cover it up.
This argument is the social safety net equivalent of "If you think the government should pay for firefighters and public roads, then you should be okay with the government owning the means of production in any other industry too."For the OMG socialism crowd, will you forego Social Security and Medicare when the time comes? How about your parents, are they beneficiaries? How would you classify those programs on a capitalism - socialism spectrum? Maybe this should be better asked in the hypocrisy thread.
You’re cool with a bank bailout that converted wealth well into the trillions - and counting - and have no issues with a policy of constant worldwide war that serves no purpose other than the transfer of wealth directly from the middle class, but yeah, providing broad access to health care and education will just be too much for you to stomach.If we elect a socialist for president, and I have the scratch, I'm personally leaving. It's not a threat nor an angry thing, it will just be that I no longer can tolerate a plurality of citizen's views about how to best organize my own labor and capital before taxes.