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Handling Looters (1 Viewer)

The General

Footballguy
So this doesn’t get swallowed up in the main thread. How would people handle looters if in charge?

Am curious across the spectrum of people who post in here what the answers would be.

Doesn’t have to be super detailed but some loose steps / actions to be taken.

You are the authority, your town has a protest which begins peacefully but turns bad. You have a large outbreak of destruction happening and chaos. What do you do? 

 
Whatever it takes. Anyone looting isn't there to protest.   My answer is the same when #### goes down after cities win championships

 
So this doesn’t get swallowed up in the main thread. How would people handle looters if in charge?

Am curious across the spectrum of people who post in here what the answers would be.

Doesn’t have to be super detailed but some loose steps / actions to be taken.

You are the authority, your town has a protest which begins peacefully but turns bad. You have a large outbreak of destruction happening and chaos. What do you do? 
In this hypothetical, I think I'd need to know the following, at the very least:

- How many people are gathered?
- Where are the gatherings?  Is it all in a single location, or is it dispersed?
- Daytime or night?
- Do I have any intelligence on the people gathered (mostly armed or unarmed)?
- What resources do I have at my disposal?  Cops only?  How many?  What equipment do my resources have?

Perhaps that sounds like nitpicking, but it's really not.  If there are 1000 people gathered and I only have 10 cops, my answer is wildly different than if there are 50 people gathered and I have 25 cops.

Ideally, I'd like to subdue and arrest looters, with non-lethal force.  How possible is that?

 
This can possibly be a good discussion. But from the other thread:

Asking one time today. Everyone please be lots more cool in here. We're going to start losing a lot more posters that what's been deleted if this doesn't change. 

I don't want to see violence encouraged or condoned from either side here. 

 
Ideally, I'd like to subdue and arrest looters, with non-lethal force.  How possible is that?
It probably was possible everywhere when it first started. 

Now it isnt possible in places like Philly. 

Still possible and working pretty well in MKE. Only a few stores looted last night and cops stopped it in progress. 

 
In this hypothetical, I think I'd need to know the following, at the very least:

- How many people are gathered?
- Where are the gatherings?  Is it all in a single location, or is it dispersed?
- Daytime or night?
- Do I have any intelligence on the people gathered (mostly armed or unarmed)?
- What resources do I have at my disposal?  Cops only?  How many?  What equipment do my resources have?

Perhaps that sounds like nitpicking, but it's really not.  If there are 1000 people gathered and I only have 10 cops, my answer is wildly different than if there are 50 people gathered and I have 25 cops.

Ideally, I'd like to subdue and arrest looters, with non-lethal force.  How possible is that?
Hopefully we are past the worst of the random violence and destruction.

You touched on a lot of the things that come into play with what I was getting at as I was watching this unfold.

It’s truly frightening how close to the edge of chaos we are inching towards and what is pushing us to the edge can be the actions of such a small group of people. 

Watching what is happening in my city the looters are a very small percentage of the legit protestors but they get mixed in with the crowds  start busting store windows, lighting cars on fire, and then chaos erupts.

Police are severely out numbered by the overall size of the crowd who most again are there to protest and are doing the right thing. How do they even try and arrest people in the middle of these giant groups of people without a complete disaster unfolding?

The whole thing is just a powder keg.

 
Protesting is legal.  Burning and looting are entirely different and have nothing to do with the actual protest.

There was a sad scene in Detroit where a older Mexican couple saved and opened a small restaurant that I have ate at few times.  Great family, who loved cooking good food and working their restaurant.  During the protest their windows were smashed out and their restaurant burned and destroyed.  They were on the news crying and saying "Why would anyone do this to us?  "we are just hard working people trying to make a living"   The man said he tried to stop the looters and vandals but said he was afraid for his life.

So I guess every individual has to decide what can be done at the scene without getting killed yourself.

 
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Protesting is legal.  Burning and looting are entirely different and have nothing to do with the actual protest.

There was a sad scene in Detroit where a older Mexican couple saved and opened a small restaurant that I have ate a few times.  Great family, who loved cooking good food and working their restaurant.  during the protect their windows were smashed out and their restaurant burned and destroyed.  They were on the news crying and saying "Why would anyone do this to us?  "we are just hard working people trying to make a living"   The man said he tried to stop the looters and vandals but said he was afraid for his life.

So I guess every individual has to decide what can be done at the scene without getting killed yourself.
Awful and scenarios like this are playing out in every city. It’s hard to understand what is going on in the minds of people that do this. 

 
Assign investigators to meticulously go through the video footage, identify the looters, obtain warrants to search their residences if necessary, interview them, get them to rat out their friends, identify more of them, prosecute all of them for burglary (entering a building with intent to commit theft - a felony in most states) and theft (graded depending upon type and/or value of goods taken).  It will take a while but that's all you can do.

 
With the destruction that is happening around the country this isn't about George Floyd anymore.

 
Awful and scenarios like this are playing out in every city. It’s hard to understand what is going on in the minds of people that do this. 
Well it is not George Floyd`s memory or the original message.  Pretty much a whole block was trashed away from where the large police presence was.   As usual it was a block in a hard working lower income area that needed these family small business`s.  Most now won`t return and the area will probably fall into decay and ruin. 

 
This sounds like a terrible idea and, I believe, violates the First Amendment.  The last thing we need is for police and government to be given more cover of secrecy.
You can watch the 6:00 p.m. ET and 11:00 p.m. ET news like they had to do before the internet.  We all know people can't function without their phone now and they will go home.

 
What do you say to the thousands of people in every city, the vast majority of people out there, protesting legitimately?
I take my hat off to those out there protesting legitimately, but we all know those who are trying to burn down America it isn't about George Floyd and probably wasn't in the beginning.

 
I was watching a livestream of DC last night. They had peaceful protests right at the White House basically all day long. As the curfew approached, someone started setting fires. The police decided they had enough.  They started pushing back the lines using tear gas and rubber bullets.  
 

In literally 20 minutes they had thousands of people blocks away from the White House.

Then the national guard came in and people completely scattered.

 
You can watch the 6:00 p.m. ET and 11:00 p.m. ET news like they had to do before the internet.  We all know people can't function without their phone now and they will go home.
Citizens recording on their phones is our most dependable method of learning about police brutality.  I don't want to take away the ability to record and live broadcast.

 
I was watching a livestream of DC last night. They had peaceful protests right at the White House basically all day long. As the curfew approached, someone started setting fires. The police decided they had enough.  They started pushing back the lines using tear gas and rubber bullets.  
 

In literally 20 minutes they had thousands of people blocks away from the White House.

Then the national guard came in and people completely scattered.
More than 50 Secret Service Agents were injured last night.

 
I would have the National Guard set up a perimeter to contain the looting to commercial areas and have local law enforcement handle pockets in other areas and protect residential areas as best you can.  For example in Philly, you have the National Guard contain the looting to Center City which is mostly commercial and then fully staff the different police districts to control the more residential areas.  

EDIT: I'll also add that the use of force should be used to protect law enforcement only.  People over property.

 
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Awful and scenarios like this are playing out in every city. It’s hard to understand what is going on in the minds of people that do this. 
Personal story that I am not proud of, but have shared with a few close friends as it was an important and shocking learning experience for me - and I hoped, given how well they knew me, might be instructive for them.

First, a little background on me:

  • I have a strong moral compass (never cheated on an exam, never stole anything, never cheated on a girlfriend, don't lie unless it is to spare someone's feelings, etc.)
  • I have strong independent streak (don't follow the crowd, happily question conventional wisdom, not terribly susceptible to peer pressure - or so I thought)
  • Went to college at a well-respected undergrad business school where I got good grades
Ok, so here goes:

My senior year of college I exited the campus bar after a night of moderate drinking (about 4 drinks over 2-3 hours).  I was definitely buzzed but I NEVER got out-of-control drunk (am too controlling to ever let myself get out-of-control).  Upon exiting I found a crowd had gathered outside in the cold November New England air.  It was 12:30 am, the bar had just closed and campus police were attempting (per usual) to disperse the crowd with "keep it moving," "break it up," and "let's go people."  The crowd, however, was at first moving more slowly than usual, but as the campus police got more adamant the crowd seemed to get more agitated.  In retrospect I could see that each side was escalating the situation by degrees.  Back and forth, little by little each side attempted to assert its will over the other. The campus police (4 cops) had the authority, but the crowd had the size advantage (~60 people and the unstated knowledge within that "they can't write us ALL up").  But as I said above, the escalation by degrees was only apparent to me in retrospect.  In the moment, I was getting more frustrated and agitated with how the campus police felt the need to continuously assert their authority over us.  And the years of living on this woodsy campus in the suburbs of Boston with these wannabe tough-guy cops who felt the need to break up our dorm parties and confiscate our beer provided me and others with an us-against-them mentality for the current we're-not-gonna-take-it-anymore moment.  A few snowballs got tossed at the cops from some far-off part of the crowd and one hit a cop in the chest.  The crowd erupted in cheers and jeers.  The campus police must have already called for back-up because almost simultaneously 3 or 4 cruisers (lights flashing) arrived on the scene.  One of my friends grabbed me and pulled me from the edge of crowd with a "let's get outta here" and we started walking back to our dorm.  I didn't resist him in the least but I could feel the invisible pull of that crowd on me.  I don't know if it was that I didn't want to miss what happened next or if I wanted to be PART of what happened next, but I know I felt like I was running FROM something and that didn't feel  good.  That feeling of running away mixed with my frustration with the cops now had me AS agitated as I was when I was PART of the crowd.  The walkways through the woodsy campus were lined with thin rebar stakes 3 feet high so the plows could easily follow the winding paths. Without any thought or consideration of the repercussions, I plucked one of these three foot rebar spikes from the ground, recoiled and turned in a single motion, and tossed it toward the darkened first floor window of a unoccupied classroom building.  I expected the 5'x3' window to shatter.  I wanted to destroy something and I wanted the satisfaction of a large crashing sound and the visual of 15' sqft of glass breaking.  Instead, the rebar sailed like a javelin, pierced the window almost silently and left only a bullet-hole sized opening on the exterior of the building.  Still, the moment immediately shocked me.  WTF did I just do?  Why did I do that? What if someone was in that room (unlikely as the lights were off at 12:30 am on a Friday, but still had I considered all that before throwing it?).  I was jolted awake and felt suddenly sobered in an instant.  We ran back to our dorm.  30 years later I couldn't tell you ANYTHING else about that night except the above and the fact that my friend and I NEVER spoke about the incident again.  To this day, it remains one of the defining moments of my life...something I think about multiple times per year.  No one was injured, property damage was minimal, but the loss of control, the feeling of being swept up in the moment scares the F out of me to this day.

So, to your question of "what's going on in the minds of people?" I can only answer with my limited experience that what is going through their minds are likely:

  • lots of things (some connected to the moment, some brought from years prior, some that have NOTHING to do with any of this)
  • nothing, just pure emotion escalated by degrees that are only clear in retrospect


For instance,  

  • Person 1: all I did was yell
  • Person 2: all I did was push
  • Person 3: all I did was throw a brick
  • Person 4: all I did was cheer when the window smashed
  • Person 5: all I did was run through the store
  • Person 6: all I did was grab a single t-shirt
  • Person 7: all I did was grab a few lousy t-shirts
  • Person 8: all I did was smash the register
  • Person 9: all I did was pick up a few $20 bills that were already on the ground


Anyway, my point is simply that as a privileged d!ck in my 20s for whom everything had gone right, everything was easy - on THAT night, in THAT situation, I was weak.

 
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Look at all the riots that happen because a sports team loses.  30% of people can't think for themselves and don't give a crap about anyone or anything around them.  

 
Morton Muffley said:
Personal story that I am not proud of, but have shared with a few close friends as it was an important and shocking learning experience for me - and I hoped, given how well they knew me, might be instructive for them.

First, a little background on me:

  • I have a strong moral compass (never cheated on an exam, never stole anything, never cheated on a girlfriend, don't lie unless it is to spare someone's feelings, etc.)
  • I have strong independent streak (don't follow the crowd, happily question conventional wisdom, not terribly susceptible to peer pressure - or so I thought)
  • Went to college at a well-respected undergrad business school where I got good grades
Ok, so here goes:

My senior year of college I exited the campus bar after a night of moderate drinking (about 4 drinks over 2-3 hours).  I was definitely buzzed but I NEVER got out-of-control drunk (am too controlling to ever let myself get out-of-control).  Upon exiting I found a crowd had gathered outside in the cold November New England air.  It was 12:30 pm, the bar had just closed and campus police were attempting (per usual) to disperse the crowd with "keep it moving," "break it up," and "let's go people."  The crowd, however, was at first moving more slowly than usual, but as the campus police got more adamant the crowd seemed to get more agitated.  In retrospect I could see that each side was escalating the situation by degrees.  Back and forth, little by little each side attempted to assert its will over the other. The campus police (4 cops) had the authority, but the crowd had the size advantage (~60 people and the unstated knowledge within that "they can't write us ALL up").  But as I said above, the escalation by degrees was only apparent to me in retrospect.  In the moment, I was getting more frustrated and agitated with how the campus police felt the need to continuously assert their authority over us.  And the years of living on this woodsy campus in the suburbs of Boston with these wannabe tough-guy cops who felt the need to break up our dorm parties and confiscate our beer provided me and others with an us-against-them mentality for the current we're-not-gonna-take-it-anymore more moment.  A few snowballs got tossed at the cops from some far-off part of the crowd and one hit a cop in the chest.  The crowd erupted in cheers and jeers.  The campus police must have already called for back-up because almost simultaneously 3 or 4 cruisers (lights flashing) arrived on the scene.  One of my friends grabbed me and pulled me from the edge of crowd with a "let's get outta here" and we started walking back to our dorm.  I didn't resist him in the least but I could feel the invisible pull of that crowd on me.  I don't know if it was that I didn't want to miss what happened next or if I wanted to be PART of what happened next, but I know I felt like I was running FROM something and that didn't feel  good.  That feeling of running away mixed with my frustration with the cops now had me AS agitated as I was when I was PART of the crowd.  The walkways through the woodsy campus were lined with thin rebar stakes 3 feet high so the plows could easily follow the winding paths. Without any thought or consideration of the repercussions, I plucked one of these three foot rebar spikes from the ground, recoiled and turned in a single motion, and tossed it toward the darkened first floor window of a unoccupied classroom building.  I expected the 5'x3' window to shatter.  I wanted to destroy something and I wanted the satisfaction of a large crashing sound and the visual of 15' sqft of glass breaking.  Instead, the rebar sailed like a javelin, pierced the window almost silently and left only a bullet-hole sized opening on the exterior of the building.  Still, the moment immediately shocked me.  WTF did I just do?  Why did I do that? What if someone was in that room (unlikely as the lights were off at 12:30 pm on a Friday, but still had I considered all that before throwing it?).  I was jolted awake and felt suddenly sobered in an instant.  We ran back to our dorm.  30 years later I couldn't tell you ANYTHING else about that night except the above and the fact that my friend and I NEVER spoke about the incident again.  To this day, it remains one of the defining moments of my life...something I think about multiple times per year.  No one was injured, property damage was minimal, but the loss of control, the feeling of being swept up in the moment scares the F out of me to this day.

So, to your question of "what's going on in the minds of people?" I can only answer with my limited experience that what is going through their minds are likely:

  • lots of things (some connected to the moment, some brought from years prior, some that have NOTHING to do with any of this)
  • nothing, just pure emotion escalated by degrees that are only clear in retrospect


For instance,  

  • Person 1: all I did was yell
  • Person 2: all I did was push
  • Person 3: all I did was throw a brick
  • Person 4: all I did was cheer when the window smashed
  • Person 5: all I did was run through the store
  • Person 6: all I did was grab a single t-shirt
  • Person 7: all I did was grab a few lousy t-shirts
  • Person 8: all I did was smash the register
  • Person 9: all I did was pick up a few $20 bills that were already on the ground


Anyway, my point is simply that as a privileged d!ck in my 20s for whom everything had gone right, everything was easy - on THAT night, in THAT situation, I was weak.
Great post.  People don't understand mob mentality and how it can affect people.  I'm not using that to justify any actions of violence or damage whatsoever, but it's an incredible force being in an energized crowd like that, and it can turn good people with good intentions, into bad people with bad intentions very quickly.  The line is very very thin, and it's easy to say you'd walk away from that until you're actually there.  It's a scary thing.

PS... I'm assuming you meant 12;30AM not PM??

 
you cannot sit back and allow violence/chaos/looting/stealing/destruction in my opinion

that it was allowed is terrible

 
you cannot sit back and allow violence/chaos/looting/stealing/destruction in my opinion

that it was allowed is terrible
I don’t think many people want to allow it. It’s more in real life how do you stop it when it happens in a giant group of people.

 
Great post.  People don't understand mob mentality and how it can affect people.  I'm not using that to justify any actions of violence or damage whatsoever, but it's an incredible force being in an energized crowd like that, and it can turn good people with good intentions, into bad people with bad intentions very quickly.  The line is very very thin, and it's easy to say you'd walk away from that until you're actually there.  It's a scary thing.

PS... I'm assuming you meant 12;30AM not PM??
Thanks.  And yes, I meant AM..will edit accordingly to correct it.  

And I, too, am not excusing the behavior but having experienced an incredibly limited version of it myself I can empathize with those who may have found themselves swept up in the moment.  Doesn't excuse the behavior nor should it exonerate any individual for what contribution they made.  Just trying to explain HOW it can happen.

 
Thanks.  And yes, I meant AM..will edit accordingly to correct it.  

And I, too, am not excusing the behavior but having experienced an incredibly limited version of it myself I can empathize with those who may have found themselves swept up in the moment.  Doesn't excuse the behavior nor should it exonerate any individual for what contribution they made.  Just trying to explain HOW it can happen.
For sure.  I was in the middle of downtown Vancouver during the 2011 riot after game 7 of the Stanley Cup Playoffs.  It was scary.  You could just feel something off in the air when you left the arena.  I did not participate in anything but you could see others who seemed out of place, start by cheering when a car flipped, and suddenly the energy of the crowd pulled them in.  Scary stuff.

We actually tried to get out of there but couldn't leave downtown so went to a pub for some food to get out of it.  There were hundreds of us in the basement of this pub where there were no windows, and we weren't allowed out as there was absolute chaos on the streets just outside the pub doors.  All we could do was watch the coverage on the TV's of what was happening a mere 10 feet beside us through the walls. 

Eventually the manager was told to not play the news coverage on TV as it could rile people up or make them want to go outside, so he put on a Seinfeld.  Was a weird scene sitting there as my phone blew up with "are you ok?" texts from friends around the world, smack in the middle of a riot outside, and we're all in the basement of the bar eating Nachos and watching Seinfeld.

 
Not gonna say it solves the problem of looting, but from what I've seen the instances where the police actually join the protests have been much more peaceful. I know the police have a job to do, but the small showing of unity may go a long way towards calming tensions. Be seen as fighting for the same cause as opposed to being adversaries. 

 
Not gonna say it solves the problem of looting, but from what I've seen the instances where the police actually join the protests have been much more peaceful. I know the police have a job to do, but the small showing of unity may go a long way towards calming tensions. Be seen as fighting for the same cause as opposed to being adversaries. 
Absolutely.  We had a protest here today and every police officer took a knee with the whole crowd.  Remained very peaceful.

 
you cannot sit back and allow violence/chaos/looting/stealing/destruction in my opinion

that it was allowed is terrible
Yesterday in santa monica that looting was crazy to watch on live tv, 10 cops standing outside a store that was being looted and they just let EVERYONE leave. The looters walked or ran right by the officers at the door and its not like there was 200 people surrounding these cops.  You have to arrest at least a couple to show you will or they are just going to move along to the next store, which they did.   You start making arrests and that neighborhood clears ALOT quicker.

 
Yesterday in santa monica that looting was crazy to watch on live tv, 10 cops standing outside a store that was being looted and they just let EVERYONE leave. The looters walked or ran right by the officers at the door and its not like there was 200 people surrounding these cops.  You have to arrest at least a couple to show you will or they are just going to move along to the next store, which they did.   You start making arrests and that neighborhood clears ALOT quicker.
they're afraid to be called racist for arresting criminals 

that's where we are now :(

 
Yesterday in santa monica that looting was crazy to watch on live tv, 10 cops standing outside a store that was being looted and they just let EVERYONE leave. The looters walked or ran right by the officers at the door and its not like there was 200 people surrounding these cops.  You have to arrest at least a couple to show you will or they are just going to move along to the next store, which they did.   You start making arrests and that neighborhood clears ALOT quicker.
Maybe.  Or maybe the guy you arrested tries to get away and you tackle him and suddenly there's a viral video of you  and your name, going around the internet causing outrage.  Or worse, the people fight back. 

Sure in your situation with 10 cops and under 200 people that's one thing, but where do you draw the line of 'how many people around' is too many to arrest someone?

 
Not gonna say it solves the problem of looting, but from what I've seen the instances where the police actually join the protests have been much more peaceful. I know the police have a job to do, but the small showing of unity may go a long way towards calming tensions. Be seen as fighting for the same cause as opposed to being adversaries. 
Those images have been great and most of the gatherings, protests, rallies have been what they should be. 

 

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