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More important for society: addressing structural racism or pandemic response? (1 Viewer)

More important for society?

  • Addressing structural racism / police brutality

    Votes: 22 48.9%

  • Pandemic response / social distancing

    Votes: 19 42.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 4 8.9%
  • Total voters
    45
The Z Machine

The Z Machine

Footballguy
My wife and I were having an argument this morning about the importance of protesting police brutality (and systemic racism) vs. supporting the safer at home orders for the ongoing pandemic.

I believe that by joining a protest (physically) that it undermines the social distancing / safer at home messaging coming from public health authorities.  Furthermore, I think that the COVID19 pandemic is a greater public health issue than systemic racism / police brutality.  Undermining that messaging puts greater lives at risk and weakens public resolve to tackle this pandemic and future pandemics.

My wife feels the opposite.

This is acute for her as she is a faculty member of a prominent school of public health, so her opinion is both personal and professional.  She wants to attend a protest tomorrow and put her presence on her personal (not professional) social media.

Thoughts?

 
Me: Doctor, I have a hole in my head and a hole in my chest. Which one should get fixed? 

Doctor: Um, which one?

 
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Why not both? Protest by putting a sign on your vehicle, that way social distancing can happen, and you can support ending police brutality and racism.

 
Zow said:
Me: Doctor, I have a hole in my head and a hole in my chest. Which one should get fixed? 

Doctor: Um, which one?
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You should triage and figure out which is more threatening and then allocate resources accordingly.  You don't ignore one and 100% on the other, but ranking the threats is vital IMO.

 
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 

 
timschochet said:
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 
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You are probably going to be suspended for that but I want you to know i couldn't agree more.

It's the equivalent to the cool day in the summer proving climate change wrong argument

 
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timschochet said:
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 
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It's dumb because you have your own spin on things and do not listen to what they are really saying.  Life in politics

Answer to OP is the pandemic is the immediate concern because of the number of lives that are affected.  Societal racism is the long term concern that needs to be addressed.  That doesn't mean changes can't start immediately though but the pandemic guidelines should be followed in doing so.

 
killface said:
You are probably going to be suspended for that but I want you to know i couldn't agree more.

It's the equivalent to the cool day in the summer proving climate change wrong argument
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Hopefully I will not be suspended. I am not calling any PERSON dumb; I’m calling an argument dumb. I think I’m allowed to do that. 

 
Tim, this was covered in the Government Response to COVID thread yesterday. It simply isn't true that public health experts have not encouraged marching. Thousands have. And in doing so I believe they undermine the credibility of epidemiologists and public health authorities broadly.

 
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timschochet said:
It’s dumb because  it wasn’t “the libs” who recommended the restrictions in the first place, it was medical people. Public health experts. And they certainly never encouraged anyone to march. The whole argument is very silly. 
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Still not listening to the people that you are claiming are saying things.  But carry on I gave my opinion regarding the OP no need to argue with you in here on something you're twisting around

 
I'm not sure why it's "either/or".  In the long term the devastation of systemic racism has been (and will continue to be) brutal.  Coronavirus will be a blip in comparison.  That does not negate the importance of understanding the here and now and what should be done given the current circumstances.  Follow the guidelines and do the needful.  Of course this is easy to say until you realize virtually NONE of the states are following the guidelines anyway.  The outrage on "look...not following the rules!!!!!" should have begun a couple weeks ago when states weren't doing what the guidelines suggested.  Of course this requires "turning on your own" in many of those cases.

Many of us are looking at the protests now and the protests before and shaking our heads thinking "you're being really stupid in the way you're going about this".  That seems to be the opposite of hypocrisy.  That seems to be consistency.  I guess people don't know what to do when they find themselves in the same boat as those they were admonishing just a minute before?

 
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The Z Machine said:
My wife and I were having an argument this morning about the importance of protesting police brutality (and systemic racism) vs. supporting the safer at home orders for the ongoing pandemic.

I believe that by joining a protest (physically) that it undermines the social distancing / safer at home messaging coming from public health authorities.  Furthermore, I think that the COVID19 pandemic is a greater public health issue than systemic racism / police brutality.  Undermining that messaging puts greater lives at risk and weakens public resolve to tackle this pandemic and future pandemics.

My wife feels the opposite.

This is acute for her as she is a faculty member of a prominent school of public health, so her opinion is both personal and professional.  She wants to attend a protest tomorrow and put her presence on her personal (not professional) social media.

Thoughts?
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I agree very strongly with your view on this one.  It's easy for me to say because the probability that I would ever attend a protest over anything is something close to zero, but even setting that aside, attending large social gatherings very likely puts other people's health at risk.

 
Murph said:
Tim, this was covered in the Government Response to COVID thread yesterday. It simply isn't true that public health experts have not encouraged marching. Thousands have. And in doing so I believe they undermine the credibility of epidemiologists and public health authorities broadly.
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My wife is one of these experts.  She says that public health people need to build trust within these communities (POC, indigenous, etc) and that outweighs the detrimental effects on the trust by the white majority.

 
The Z Machine said:
My wife is one of these experts.  She says that public health people need to build trust within these communities (POC, indigenous, etc) and that outweighs the detrimental effects on the trust by the white majority.
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Will that trust endure in those communities after the inevitable spike in cases?

 
The Z Machine said:
I believe that by joining a protest (physically) that it undermines the social distancing / safer at home messaging coming from public health authorities.  Furthermore, I think that the COVID19 pandemic is a greater public health issue than systemic racism / police brutality.  Undermining that messaging puts greater lives at risk and weakens public resolve to tackle this pandemic and future pandemics.

My wife feels the opposite.
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I agree with you, that COVID is the greater public health issue.

However, I don't think every protester is undermining public health authorities. Many of them are outdoors, wearing masks, maintaining a reasonable amount of distance between others, and/or protesting in states which have minimal restrictions and a relatively low likelihood of spreading the disease.

Personally, I am hopeful that a side-effect of the protests is that we don't end up seeing spikes in the COVID numbers, which leads to more and more states realizing that a productive society can coexist with COVID if enough people adhere to some minimum safety standards.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I agree very strongly with your view on this one.  It's easy for me to say because the probability that I would ever attend a protest over anything is something close to zero, but even setting that aside, attending large social gatherings very likely puts other people's health at risk.
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This is pretty much where I fall as well. I support, understand, will donate, will speak out. But I will not gather unnecessarily for a non-economic benefit right now. The country has been through so much with a shutdown, 108K lives lost, many more seriously ill, and businesses that may never recover. So forgive me for not thinking that mass protests are such a great idea during a pandemic where the disease is universally transmissible. Yes the outdoor factor, yes the young people factor. But in NYC for example, they had to take mass transit to get around in many cases. Largely not a good idea, IMO. I hope it turns out ok, but I have doubts about that.

 
timschochet said:
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 
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It's hard to watch the same leaders who push mask wearing and social distancing go out in public and ignore their own warnings. 

 
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timschochet said:
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 
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Actually, that's a pretty valid complaint.  Not the "it's all a hoax" part, but if you replace that with "these people never took the coronavirus that seriously to begin with" you would be spot on.

It's literally true that in the span of two weeks, a certain subsection of the adult population went from "If you attend a public gathering you are killing my grandma" to "It's not only okay but it's morally imperative for thousands of us to take to the streets together."  It's both good and healthy to make fun of those people.  As a society, we should stigmatize this sort of motivated reasoning. 

Edit: To clarify, those folks were right the first time when they were criticizing protests on public health grounds a few weeks ago.

 
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I asked my wife is she would support people joining mass protests for gun rights or abortion restrictions.  She said it was a false distinction as those two policies are against public health interests.

 
I told her, "I think that your attendance at the protest contributes to the distrust of experts (generally) and public health officials (specifically) and that is more important than the structural racism present in our society."

I think that distrust in science and experts is a major problem with our society and holds back the potential for the entire human race.

 
The Z Machine said:
I asked my wife is she would support people joining mass protests for gun rights or abortion restrictions.  She said it was a false distinction as those two policies are against public health interests.
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Forget hypothetical abortion protests. We had actual protests a few weeks ago against the Stay At Home orders. These orders have arguably contributed to increases in anxiety, depression, drug/alcohol abuse, and domestic violence. (I say arguably because I don't think anyone doubts these things have risen recently, but it's arguable what can be attribute to Stay At Home Measures vs. the existence of the pandemic itself). Genuinely curious to hear your wife's answer.

Edit to add: although not explicitly stated by protestors (at least that I've seen). I suspect that the negative effects of the Stay At Home orders have contributed to the size, intensity, and duration of these protests as people are feeling like they have less of a stake in a functioning society.

 
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She'd probably say that protests against SAHO would also be against public health interests and should not be supported.

She recently came back to me asking about what I would say to the Hong Kongers protesting the actions of the mainland and the response from the HK government.

I said that in that case, I would support the mass protests. 

So I guess this question is a matter of degrees and risk levels, not of fundamental rights or actions.

 
Max Power said:
I think we need to focus 

timschochet said:
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 
Click to expand...
It's hard to watch the same leaders who push mask wearing and social distancing go out in public and ignore their own warnings. 
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I don't know what to do with this honestly.  We absolutely need to focus and it's hard to see our leaders saying one thing then doing another.  My gut reaction to this though is, "glad you're on board, but where have you been since the guidelines were released?!?!?!!"  Because I agree 100% that the guidelines should be followed.  Virtually NO ONE is following them at this point and those that are sort of following them are using the guidelines set out by our federal administration yet people are upset they are following them.  This is, by far, one of the most inconsistent and incompetent areas of this entire issue and I can't help but wonder if it wasn't designed this way on purpose.

 
No doubt that the messaging from our government and public health officials has been atrocious during this pandemic.  I don't think most people would have thought the response in US would be so poor compared to other countries. Certainly, the US ranked very highly on pandemic preparedness, but the results speak for themselves.

Other Western nations have also suffered similarly.

 
The Z Machine said:
I told her, "I think that your attendance at the protest contributes to the distrust of experts (generally) and public health officials (specifically) and that is more important than the structural racism present in our society."

I think that distrust in science and experts is a major problem with our society and holds back the potential for the entire human race.
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It definitely contributes...it provides a rock to hide behind for the dishonest for sure.  But is anyone, at this point, really using the actions of public health officials to make determinations?  I feel like people made up their minds a long time ago on whether the social distancing thing was good/right or not.  I find it hard to believe that people are looking at our public health officials and saying "Ok this, THIS makes my mind up!"  Those who distrust have been in that camp for ages.  Those who don't are either encouraging it or saying, "hey dummy...how about following your own advice".....they aren't going full on "well, I believed scientists before, but now I don't because they aren't practicing what they preach".  Maybe I am giving people too much credit?

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Actually, that's a pretty valid complaint.  Not the "it's all a hoax" part, but if you replace that with "these people never took the coronavirus that seriously to begin with" you would be spot on.

It's literally true that in the span of two weeks, a certain subsection of the adult population went from "If you attend a public gathering you are killing my grandma" to "It's not only okay but it's morally imperative for thousands of us to take to the streets together."  It's both good and healthy to make fun of those people.  As a society, we should stigmatize this sort of motivated reasoning. 

Edit: To clarify, those folks were right the first time when they were criticizing protests on public health grounds a few weeks ago.
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This is one of those discussions where I see both sides and don't have a strong opinion.  One of the questions I asked in another thread is whether there is any imaginable, hypothetical cause that would be so important to you that the benefit of protest would outweigh the heightened risk of covid spread.  I think everyone would say yes to this although they might have to imagine some far-fetched scenarios.

When it comes to these protests, I'm skeptical that they will result in meaningful change.  If they did, however, then, yes, I think the trade off would be worth it as significant steps to reduce institutional racism will benefit our society for generations.  

Although I guess my opinion is society would be better off by staying at home for now, I will not criticize though who feel differently for causes they feel passionate about.  (Unless they aren't wearing masks.  There is no excuse for that.)

 
The Commish said:
But is anyone, at this point, really using the actions of public health officials to make determinations?  I feel like people made up their minds a long time ago on whether the social distancing thing was good/right or not.  I find it hard to believe that people are looking at our public health officials and saying "Ok this, THIS makes my mind up!"  Those who distrust have been in that camp for ages.
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I think this gives too much weight to a vocal minority. Polls consistently showed bipartisan support for Stay at Home orders. Perhaps that will continue. But I find it hard to believe that the sudden reversal on the acceptability of mass gatherings for political reasons isn't going to affect that. And I don't think it's because people were lying to pollsters. I think people are reassessing the facts on the ground. 

 
Murph said:
I think this gives too much weight to a vocal minority. Polls consistently showed bipartisan support for Stay at Home orders. Perhaps that will continue. But I find it hard to believe that the sudden reversal on the acceptability of mass gatherings for political reasons isn't going to affect that. And I don't think it's because people were lying to pollsters. I think people are reassessing the facts on the ground. 
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I tried to account for those reasonable people with

The Commish said:
those who don't are either encouraging it or saying, "hey dummy...how about following your own advice"
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facts on the ground are coming relatively close to the predictions made months ago if you remove all the :hophead: apocalyptic nonsense the fringe "predictors" came up with.  They haven't changed a ton.  The only person who would have grounds to stand on in suggesting they've changed a ton are those who bought into the 1-2 million are going to die model.  Almost everything else suggested around 500K or so...some a bit higher, some a bit lower.  

 
The Commish said:
I tried to account for those reasonable people with

facts on the ground are coming relatively close to the predictions made months ago if you remove all the :hophead: apocalyptic nonsense the fringe "predictors" came up with.  They haven't changed a ton.  The only person who would have grounds to stand on in suggesting they've changed a ton are those who bought into the 1-2 million are going to die model.  Almost everything else suggested around 500K or so...some a bit higher, some a bit lower.  
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So, the spread of the virus was inevitable and it's par3ty couldn't be altered?

 
timschochet said:
Easily the most insipid argument I am hearing from pro Trump types everywhere these days goes something like this: 

Look at all the libs marching! And only last week they were telling us don’t open up, stay in your homes! That just proves it was all a hoax, all a lie. 
 

I am hearing this everywhere. So incredibly dumb. 
Click to expand...
The virus wasn't a hoax.  

But there's some political motivation for saying "let's stay closed for the health of grandma" and "To hell with grandma's health, we have to protest for racial justice."

People (including countless black Americans) have been choosing between the light bill and food for their kids.  But you're telling Americans exercising their right to protest supersedes the need for those same people to work and feed their children?  

It doesn't make sense, Tim.

 
The Z Machine said:
So, the spread of the virus was inevitable and it's par3ty couldn't be altered?
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Not sure what you're saying here GB.  I'm saying reasonable predictions from several months ago are still realistic today.  The only ones not realistic today are the 1-2 million dying ones.  They aren't realistic today, but they weren't three months ago either.  So when one says "See, it's not as bad as people predicted.  It's all been fear mongering and sensationalism" they have to be attached to the prediction that 1-2 million would die prediction.  The 500K prediction is still in play and it was in play before the protests began.  There's no question, in my mind anyway, that if we manage to stay under that 500K mark it will be because of actions we've taken.  I just hope that the irresponsible actions during the protests don't make it worse than that.  We don't have to choose between protests and no protests....we can take the necessary precautions and do it correctly.  I've been to two of them so far....another one tonight if it doesn't get cancelled.  

 
There are several forces which are the main contributors to police brutality.

1.  The large amount of crimes concentrated in the poor inner city neighborhoods.

2.  The enormous distrusting attitude exhibited towards police that they are racists.

3.  Police covering for their own and not rooting out the bad apples which lead to these few high profile cases.  

We have spent the last 50 years improving policies.  The major problems are not structural.  What leads more often than not to police brutality is the hostile attitude displayed towards police and police having to enter into dangerous situations.  Of course there are still some officers who are horrible.    But until SOME of the focus is put on items 1 and 2, it will remain a problem. 

 
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jm192 said:
The virus wasn't a hoax.  

But there's some political motivation for saying "let's stay closed for the health of grandma" and "To hell with grandma's health, we have to protest for racial justice."

People (including countless black Americans) have been choosing between the light bill and food for their kids.  But you're telling Americans exercising their right to protest supersedes the need for those same people to work and feed their children?  

It doesn't make sense, Tim.
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For some, sure.  For some it's a purely moral decision.  And for some, that moral decision puts the cause above their family/selves.  That's their decision.  Just like it was the decision of the stay at home protestors.  They are choosing to do the same kinds of things with their protests. 

There is no question it's politics for the "states better follow the rules!!!!!" crowd that was up in arms over "democratic" states potentially following the guidelines right after they came out.  Now?  You can't find them anywhere as states aren't following the guidelines and continue to open up even as their numbers are going up.  And it's DEFINITELY true for those who say "obey these guidelines" in one breath then start a "liberate X state" narrative the next.  So yeah, politics plays a part in a lot of what we're seeing, but it's not politics for many.  The only way to know true motivation is to ask them.

 
I think both need to be addressed.

The task force needs to be kept together and work on the Pandemic response and preparedness for the next pandemic.

 
The Commish said:
For some, sure.  For some it's a purely moral decision.  And for some, that moral decision puts the cause above their family/selves.  That's their decision.  Just like it was the decision of the stay at home protestors.  They are choosing to do the same kinds of things with their protests. 

There is no question it's politics for the "states better follow the rules!!!!!" crowd that was up in arms over "democratic" states potentially following the guidelines right after they came out.  Now?  You can't find them anywhere as states aren't following the guidelines and continue to open up even as their numbers are going up.  And it's DEFINITELY true for those who say "obey these guidelines" in one breath then start a "liberate X state" narrative the next.  So yeah, politics plays a part in a lot of what we're seeing, but it's not politics for many.  The only way to know true motivation is to ask them.
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I mean...

If Donald Trump does something that seems politcally motivated but says it wasn't...99% of the PSF isn't going to buy it.  You'll have to forgive me if I'm equally skeptical of other politicians.

 
The Commish said:
I tried to account for those reasonable people with

facts on the ground are coming relatively close to the predictions made months ago if you remove all the :hophead: apocalyptic nonsense the fringe "predictors" came up with.  They haven't changed a ton.  The only person who would have grounds to stand on in suggesting they've changed a ton are those who bought into the 1-2 million are going to die model.  Almost everything else suggested around 500K or so...some a bit higher, some a bit lower.  
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I think either I'm misunderstanding your point, or you're misunderstanding mine.

All I'm trying to point out is that we have seen a sudden reversal on the acceptability of mass gatherings from those who were previously seen as neutral experts. That reversal cannot really be justified on anything other than political grounds.

IMO this will undermine the legitimacy of their recommendations both now and in the future. And I don't think it's because people were being disingenuous, or looking for excuses. But of course reasonable people can disagree on this.

 
No doubt that protests will cause a public health crisis but I have a hard time criticizing their hypocrisy. Can you imagine one of the health officials, governors or mayors coming out and telling everyone to stop protesting? Not just stopping the looting and rioting, but any protests. It would be incredibly tone deaf and criticized by both sides.

 
Biff84 said:
Can you imagine one of the health officials, governors or mayors coming out and telling everyone to stop protesting?
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Yes I can. Because it would be entirely consistent with their approach to the protests that just occurred only a few weeks ago.

 
jm192 said:
The Commish said:
For some, sure.  For some it's a purely moral decision.  And for some, that moral decision puts the cause above their family/selves.  That's their decision.  Just like it was the decision of the stay at home protestors.  They are choosing to do the same kinds of things with their protests. 

There is no question it's politics for the "states better follow the rules!!!!!" crowd that was up in arms over "democratic" states potentially following the guidelines right after they came out.  Now?  You can't find them anywhere as states aren't following the guidelines and continue to open up even as their numbers are going up.  And it's DEFINITELY true for those who say "obey these guidelines" in one breath then start a "liberate X state" narrative the next.  So yeah, politics plays a part in a lot of what we're seeing, but it's not politics for many.  The only way to know true motivation is to ask them.
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I mean...

If Donald Trump does something that seems politcally motivated but says it wasn't...99% of the PSF isn't going to buy it.  You'll have to forgive me if I'm equally skeptical of other politicians.
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Politicians?  Sure...agree 100%.

Your post didn't seem like you were talking about politicians alone.  If that's the case, my bad.  

 
I voted Pandemic response / social distancing. The other choice seems a bit selfish at this point in time.

 
Murph said:
I think either I'm misunderstanding your point, or you're misunderstanding mine.

All I'm trying to point out is that we have seen a sudden reversal on the acceptability of mass gatherings from those who were previously seen as neutral experts. That reversal cannot really be justified on anything other than political grounds.

IMO this will undermine the legitimacy of their recommendations both now and in the future. And I don't think it's because people were being disingenuous, or looking for excuses. But of course reasonable people can disagree on this.
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Perhaps.  I think there is moral ground here too.  And I guess it depends on the individual expert and what they've said.  I'm not sure of the specific instances you seem to be referencing.

 
The Commish said:
Perhaps.  I think there is moral ground here too.  And I guess it depends on the individual expert and what they've said.  I'm not sure of the specific instances you seem to be referencing.
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I'm referencing this letter https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1b7K1A/view?usp=drivesdk

Signed by over 1000 public health leaders. These aren't just a bunch of randos. Dr Rothman, for example, wrote the most widely used graduate level epidemiology textbook in this country. This letter calls mass gatherings for one political cause vital, but gatherings for other political causes not only impermissible but "rooted in white nationalism"

One set of rules us. Another set of rules for them. This is not to say the causes are morally equivalent. But frankly that irrelevant. This virus is not going to make such a distinction.

 
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Obviously decades and centuries of racism is a much bigger story than one virus in 2020.

But ENCOURAGING protests and riots, when you wouldn't allow funerals one week before, is among the dumbest things I've ever seen.

I've been wrong before, and this next opinion may end up being wrong, but it's truly how I feel right now.

These riots are literally dooming hundreds of thousands.  The "hoaxers" and the entire right-wing have been a on a non-stop effort to minimize and make fun of a pandemic for the last 3 months.  110,000 people are dead in the USA, and many of them literally don't care.

Many popular figures like Elon Musk and others have picked up the ball and influenced thousands more.  

So it's no wonder that people finally said "screw it" and stopped the social distancing measure.  The way things are heading, the R0 of this virus could be back where it was pre-covid, which is something I NEVER thought would happen.  I figured that we'd never see big crowds that contributed to the spread again.  Yet that's what we are possibly going to see.

So yeah, I understand why protests are happening, but they are sentencing many to die due to a pandemic.  It's going to sweep through the USA much worse than before, and it's going to be nasty.  I hoep you're prepared, but I don't think anyone is.

And don't think for a second I'm aligning with the left here.  I feel their actions are despicable over the last week too.  All the sanctimonious "save lives" crap was thrown out the window the moment the protests started.  It's hypocritical.  They should be encouraging people to stay home and protest on the internet and through social media.  But they aren't.  And so the second wave is on them too.  No political party will be free from blame in a few months.  

Rant over.

 
shader said:
Obviously decades and centuries of racism is a much bigger story than one virus in 2020.

But ENCOURAGING protests and riots, when you wouldn't allow funerals one week before, is among the dumbest things I've ever seen.

I've been wrong before, and this next opinion may end up being wrong, but it's truly how I feel right now.

These riots are literally dooming hundreds of thousands.  The "hoaxers" and the entire right-wing have been a on a non-stop effort to minimize and make fun of a pandemic for the last 3 months.  110,000 people are dead in the USA, and many of them literally don't care.

Many popular figures like Elon Musk and others have picked up the ball and influenced thousands more.  

So it's no wonder that people finally said "screw it" and stopped the social distancing measure.  The way things are heading, the R0 of this virus could be back where it was pre-covid, which is something I NEVER thought would happen.  I figured that we'd never see big crowds that contributed to the spread again.  Yet that's what we are possibly going to see.

So yeah, I understand why protests are happening, but they are sentencing many to die due to a pandemic.  It's going to sweep through the USA much worse than before, and it's going to be nasty.  I hoep you're prepared, but I don't think anyone is.

And don't think for a second I'm aligning with the left here.  I feel their actions are despicable over the last week too.  All the sanctimonious "save lives" crap was thrown out the window the moment the protests started.  It's hypocritical.  They should be encouraging people to stay home and protest on the internet and through social media.  But they aren't.  And so the second wave is on them too.  No political party will be free from blame in a few months.  

Rant over.
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Unfortunately I agree with this, as much as I don't want to.

The virus doesn't distinguish. It doesn't care about social injustice, or police use of force, or racism. It just infects humans, which sometimes results in hospitalization and death. Protesting in large gatherings right now is frankly dumb behavior and it threatens to undo everything that's been done to stamp out the virus. Particularly in a place like NYC that shut down hard, went through a full curve, and finally started to get much better results.

 
Murph said:
I'm referencing this letter https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1b7K1A/view?usp=drivesdk

Signed by over 1000 public health leaders. These aren't just a bunch of randos. Dr Rothman, for example, wrote the most widely used graduate level epidemiology textbook in this country. This letter calls mass gatherings for one political cause vital, but gatherings for other political causes not only impermissible but "rooted in white nationalism"

One set of rules us. Another set of rules for them. This is not to say the causes are morally equivalent. But frankly that irrelevant. This virus is not going to make such a distinction.
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Thanks...understand where you're coming from.  I'd file this under "stay in your lane because you're bad at politics and sound pretty dumb when going there"  

I don't know that I'd question their ability at their profession, but I can see why some would immediately jump to that, ironically enough being politics.  

 
Max Power said:
It's hard to watch the same leaders who push mask wearing and social distancing go out in public and ignore their own warnings. 
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From what I've seen, some of these "ignored their own warnings" moments are more like "gotcha journalism" from sketchy fringe media outlets. For example, showing a leader who removes their mask before a speech. Well, aren't they still following guidelines as long as they're maintaining social distancing and washing their hands? Then why print the story at all, except to create a misleading narrative?

Also, the tone of some of these stories seems to be along the lines of "Our leaders don't wear masks, so we shouldn't have to wear them either!" Which, again, is a misleading narrative.

 
As I've posted elsewhere in this forum I'm struggling with this issue.  Long term I think that addressing racism and police brutality are more important issues, but it makes me nervous that we are going to severely spike Covid cases, which could be a tremendous cost. 

Is creating a just society for our children and grandchildren worth an extra 100,000 deaths from this virus?  I am not sure about that, but probably lean towards 'yes'.  I just wish we would have taken this more seriously in more normal times, but maybe this is what was needed to spark change.  

I will also say that I find kernels of truth in the conservative talking point, but as usual it's lacking all nuance.  

 
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