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🐘 🐴 2020 Presidential Debates thread - 2nd Debate October 15 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
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Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
My thoughts for what it's worth, as someone who has watched I believe every debate in its entirety back through 2000.
- As far as how they responded to the questions, I thought it was fairly even. They both had word salad moments where you were trying to figure out what in the world they were talking about, as well as making some decent points. Biden was clearly more prepared and his longer responses were all pretty good. Trump was pretty good at the back and forth on the occasions where he wasn't constantly interrupting or insulting, bordering on heckling. Biden's worst spot was probably not answering the court packing question. Trump's was his aforementioned mangling of the white supremacy denunciation.
- I think Trump's behavior in the maybe 10-30 minute section, where he wouldn't let Biden or Wallace talk, will be the thing that hurts him the most. I guess he was trying to rattle Biden/show he was in charge, which maybe would have worked if he had dialed it down from the 13 out of 10 to like an 8. Just really off-putting and ugly. Trump supporters will point to some of Biden's childishness in response, which is fair I suppose, but Trump came off looking like the bigger offender.
- I think some of the devolvement of the debate is Wallace's fault. In my opinion, he should have not let them talk over each other, but he should have let some of the back and forth go on. On some occasions one would attack the other with a new point in a response, and then Wallace would try to move on without letting the other one speak, which I don't get. It's like he had a vision in his head of how it was going to go, and then couldn't adapt when reality was different.
- I expect most non-partisans would say they either both lost, or a slight Biden win. Neither is good for Trump. Don't want to overreact to one debate (remember people freaking out over Obama's first performance against Romney), but from a horse race standpoint, Trump could have really used a win last night and didn't get it, so now he needs something else to turn the race.
Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
As someone who grows more disgusted with the two major parties by the year, I agree with this take. That the vast majority of people just shrug their shoulders in response to the way family members of politicians get put on boards, paid huge book deals, get lucrative lobbying jobs, etc. is just maddening. How is it that Trump, of all the people in the world, is the one who brings this stuff up? Shouldn't this be a bipartisan issue, brought up by people who aren't total hypocrites on it?
squistion
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1311347578223489024
Joe Biden:
"My message to the Proud Boys and every other white supremacists group is cease and desist. That's not who we are. That's not who we are as Americans."
Joe Biden:
"My message to the Proud Boys and every other white supremacists group is cease and desist. That's not who we are. That's not who we are as Americans."
dgreen
Footballguy
To you last question: Do those people exist? If so, are there enough of those people to bring it up and make a difference? Seriously, how many of the, for example, 535 Representatives and Senators do you think there are who are clean enough to raise it as an issue?
I think Trump is likely super corrupt. Moreso than Biden. But also think Biden is likely corrupt. I just think Biden is more of a typical-DC-corrupt type of politician. Is that good or ok? No. But I don't see it changing from the inside because I think it's rampant.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
It's a good point, and I don't know the answer. It seems like the lifetime DC folks all end up with rich family members. There have to be at least some exceptions, but quantifying it would be a pure guess on my part. I think similar to term limits, it's up to the people to make it an issue that politicians can't ignore, because otherwise the entrenched politicians will enforce the status quo.
On your second point, I generally agree. My only quibble is I think if he was Donald J. Bush, Clinton, or Kennedy, even Trump's level of corruption would be quietly tolerated by the DC class. I think for the Washington establishment, Trump's corruption is a convenient cudgel to use against someone they despise rather than a principled stance.
squistion
Footballguy
He hasn't done one, but he said this about Antifa on Sept 8th, per Fox News:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-condemns-antifa-violent-protests
Biden condemns Antifa, violence 'across the board' amid riots
Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden said he condemns violence "across the board," including from Antifa, when he was asked about it during a local TV interview Monday.
"I've condemned it across the board," Biden told Pennsylvania's WGAL News 8 in an interview Monday, referring to violence during protests. "The president still hasn't condemned the far-right folks coming out and protesting and using violence."
"Do you condemn Antifa?" reporter Barbara Barr asked Biden.
"Yes, I do, violence no matter who it is," he replied.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Joe doesn't tweet. Nobody, and I mean nobody thinks he's typing anything out himself on his twitter account, right?
See - I look at that as extremely smart politics. its a political hot potato (or potatoe) - and answering that question only loses support.
If he answers that: "Yes, we will pack the court!" - then he loses a lot of moderate support who are tired of partisan bickering.
If he answer that: "No, we will simply move forward!" - then he loses enthusiasm from the far left, and Biden is going to need enthusiastic supporters to show up and vote.
The best answer is to ignore the question, and leave both sets of supporters hopeful that Biden will do the "right" thing (depending on your definition of "right").
Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
Oh, there's no doubt politically he doesn't want to be pinned down. And, with some issues, good politicians can finesse these situations by saying that the specifics will matter and it works fine. But the court issue is such a binary question, that I think most observers can decipher that the reason he's not answering is not because he doesn't have a definite answer, but because he does and he doesn't want to tell you what it is. I think it just reinforces a weakness of his - he's a career politician, politicians lie and obfuscate, etc. It all comes down to : Does not answering lose him more support than answering? I say yes, but you and presumably his team say no.
Meh - I think Biden really doesn't know what he wants to do here - he isn't hiding the ball, he simply has not had time to really weight the consequences of either outcome.Oh, there's no doubt politically he doesn't want to be pinned down. And, with some issues, good politicians can finesse these situations by saying that the specifics will matter and it works fine. But the court issue is such a binary question, that I think most observers can decipher that the reason he's not answering is not because he doesn't have a definite answer, but because he does and he doesn't want to tell you what it is. I think it just reinforces a weakness of his - he's a career politician, politicians lie and obfuscate, etc. It all comes down to : Does not answering lose him more support than answering? I say yes, but you and presumably his team say no.
I suspect, he is a traditionalist who would want to simply move forward, but I also think he would listen to the demands from the party leaders.
Ultimately, I think the Dems will try to legislate rather than change the court make-up, but its too early to see how that plays out. Maybe a year of conservative 6-3 decisions* will change their appetite next summer.
And, of course there are so many "ifs" involved in terms of getting the Senate votes - not just 50 Ds - but getting 50 votes (I don't think it is at all certain all D's would vote for any kind of judicial reform that adds Justices.)
*I think Roberts will soften the blow a little, and turn many of those 6-3 conservative decisions into 5-4 conservative decisions. And, I think Roberts will be working hard behind the scenes to remove the appearance of politics from the court, persuading some justices to give the liberal wing a win or two on less important issues.
Julie Tsirkin@JulieNBCNews
So how did Senate Republicans think the debate went?
"#### show." -- @BenSasse
"Embarrassment." -- @MittRomney
"Awful." -- @lisamurkowski
"Rough." -- @SenCapito
"I was actually watching the yankees." -- @SenatorRounds
"Might have needed an adult time out." -- @SenatorBraun
So how did Senate Republicans think the debate went?
"#### show." -- @BenSasse
"Embarrassment." -- @MittRomney
"Awful." -- @lisamurkowski
"Rough." -- @SenCapito
"I was actually watching the yankees." -- @SenatorRounds
"Might have needed an adult time out." -- @SenatorBraun
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Oh? Did Biden follow up with "But somebody's got to do something about the Right?"
Thunderlips
Footballguy
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Well since the right aren’t the ones involved in the looting and rioting, it would be silly to say that. Even for Biden.
He knows he can't win at the ballot box and will need these groups riled up and willing to take to the streets if he's to hold office.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
There's nothing to do. If he starts screaming at them or tries to just end the debate he would get crucified and his career would potentially be impacted. He tried the only thing that he could - it didn't really work but for me, he at least gets credit for trying.
I think the most telling parts are :
-fox immediately followed up the debate with a damage control Hannity special time slot (got to tell the old folk how to think)
-fox not covering the debate a ton today (from the times i have turned the channel on)
tri-man 47
Footballguy
When Trump flipped out over Biden saying he wasn't smart (Trump's reaction was priceless) and then ranted on about Biden's credentials and said something like "don't talk to me about being smart," Biden should have responded with "man ..woman ..person ..camera ..TV - see, I'm smart too!"
Guinis72
Footballguy
They've just been doing the shooting. You should do an analysis of who has killed more people, Boogaloo/Proud Boys or BLM/Antifa.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I get what you are saying but at some point we all tire of hearing try to stop the other person. It by no means was a good debate but I liken it to the Jets losing by 30 pts with a missed FG and blaming the kicker for how much they sucked.
And thanks for the shout out - honestly, I'm one of the least knowledgeable folks around here when it comes to politics (at least among the people who are here for real discussion).
AAABatteries
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Have you not read this thread? Several loved it and are encouraging that sort of thing
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Trump may inadvertently "drain the swamp" by being so swampy that the masses revolt and insist that things change. I doubt it, but one can dream.
sho nuff
Footballguy
JamieMurphy
Footballguy
Note to self: do NOT assign extra credit to middle school students that consists of watching a debate this year. The brutally honest assessment of 8th graders on what transpired is not something anyone would be proud of...and they were 100% correct.
They're really starting to get pissed at the world they're being handed and I don't blame them one bit.
They're really starting to get pissed at the world they're being handed and I don't blame them one bit.
jm192
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Look at the rest of his plan though is the point...and its not just syntax...it was a word used for the purpose of what it actually means.
-fish-
Footballguy
If he was pushing the Green New Deal he wouldn’t have a detailed plan of his own, which is considerably less expensive https://joebiden.com/climate/ You’ve quoted 1 sentence of about 10 pages.
Funny the GOP talking heads are trying to score points off of the flip side of this and failing there as well:
Kellyanne Conway
@KellyannePolls
"The Green New Deal Is Not My Plan" - @joebiden "I don't support the Green New Deal"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
US House candidate, NY-14
This isn’t news, Kellyanne. Our differences are exactly why I joined Biden’s Climate Unity Task Force - so we could set aside our differences & figure out an aggressive climate plan to address the planetary crisis at our feet. Trump doesn’t even believe climate change is real.
swing and a miss.
jm192
Footballguy
To be fair, Trump had a very strong opinion on climate change:
"He made a statement about the military. He said I said something about the military. He and his friends made it up and then they went with it. I never said it." He then goes onto say bastards on tv about 4 or 5 times.
T J
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
You can tell your friend that was addressed by Biden on September 8th (you can scroll up this page for greater detail):
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-condemns-antifa-violent-protests
Biden condemns Antifa, violence 'across the board' amid riots
T J
Footballguy
Re-read what it said in the link you posted. He didn’t condemn Antifa, but nice try. He condemned their violence.
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Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
Yeah, if you really hate something, it's definitely a plus to get Trump on the other side.
As an example, the rise in governing by executive order is something that's bothered me for a long time and nobody seemed to care. It took Trump to get a lot of people to think "Hmm, maybe this isn't such a good thing." What's the libertarian saying? - something along the lines of when you're giving someone the power to do something, imagine the person you hate the most wielding that power.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
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Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
tri-man 47
Footballguy
That was one of my disappointments with Biden last night - he could have said that, conceptually, he agrees with the GND, but recognizes that it will take time and resources to move in that direction.
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