​ 🐘 ​​ 🐴 ​2020 Presidential Debates thread - 2nd Debate October 15 (1 Viewer)

[dkp993]

The parsing out here of the details trying to show how one was better then the other in that absolute #### show train wreck of a debate is partisan politics in full bloom.  

It’s exactly what the parties in power want, us fighting over the scraps of bull#### drama while accepting the deluge of #### being shoved down our throats.  

This forum is a perfect example.  It’s FILLED with smart good people, yet we’re squabbling over tiny details while ignoring the real issue.  How we are accepting of these worst of the worst candidates (and then defended and argue over them) is unimaginable to me, and it must end.  We must demand better of our representatives.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

The parsing out here of the details trying to show how one was better then the other in that absolute #### show train wreck of a debate is partisan politics in full bloom.  

It’s exactly what the parties in power want, us fighting over the scraps of bull#### drama while accepting the deluge of #### being shoved down our throats.  

This forum is a perfect example.  It’s FILLED with smart good people, yet we’re squabbling over tiny details while ignoring the real issue.  How we are accepting of these worst of the worst candidates (and then defended and argue over them) is unimaginable to me, and it must end.  We must demand better of our representatives.  

Fair point. This a good argument for really pushing to end the two party system. But what can one do this election?

 

[ren hoek]

I thought Trump was too aggressive to start.  Biden had a problem a few times with his thoughts.  Overall I thought Biden looked good, which I didn't think he would.  No clear cut winner IMO.  I doubt whether it changed any votes at all.

I think going on the attack against Biden made sense.  But it was just completely moronic to make Christopher Wallace out to be the enemy- I don't agree with Wallace's framing of certain issues but he's a tough and fair moderator.  Trump went there at the drop of a hat when Wallace had barely blinked at him.  To be honest it seemed kind of delusional, like Hillary is with Russia.  I guess Trump could be forgiven for thinking people are out to get him but come on.  

Biden has an angry streak that rears its head every once in a while, and Trump was trying to draw it out.  To Biden's credit, he did a good job of staying in his lane and not taking the bait.  For people reading between the lines though he did have some nonsensical positions, contradicted himself, and clearly distanced himself from Berniecrats.  

I don't know what the public takeaway is from that debate, but I think Biden was the winner to people that want "normal" and "civility" again.  Trump was the winner to people who want entertainment value out of the US presidency (since they'll never get meaningful policy changes anyway).  

 

[dkp993]

Fair point. This a good argument for really pushing to end the two party system. But what can one do this election?

For POTUS the Dem’s absolutely blew their opportunity for real progress so we’re stuck.  But vote out as many of the Senators up for re-election as possible.  We need to start making wholesale changes from the ground floor.  In non-swing states voting 3rd party is VITAL.  We must get the 15% threshold met so another voice can enter into future debates and national discussions.  Trump HAS to go in a landslide, not because I support Biden in anyway (I don’t) or what a D in that chair (D or R I’m most indifferent too at this point), but change has to start now.  Politicians have to get scared of us, they have to know we will boot their ### if we are not accepting of their actions.  They’ve become way too comfortable and entrenched in their positions.  I would love to see an almost 100% routing out of both house in Congress over the next few election cycles.  

 

[Dr_Zaius]

Let's not praise the mental capacity of the guy who responded that he wants immaculate water when asked about his beliefs on the science of climate change too much.  

The cleanest water.  The absolute best.

In a vacuum, though, I think tonydead's specific point is valid.  I have to admit I didn't pick up on Biden skipping past point two until Trump pointed it out.  Of course, he's probably paying closer attention since he's in the debate while I'm sitting on my couch, but still.

 

[The Commish]

The parsing out here of the details trying to show how one was better then the other in that absolute #### show train wreck of a debate is partisan politics in full bloom.  

It’s exactly what the parties in power want, us fighting over the scraps of bull#### drama while accepting the deluge of #### being shoved down our throats.  

This forum is a perfect example.  It’s FILLED with smart good people, yet we’re squabbling over tiny details while ignoring the real issue.  How we are accepting of these worst of the worst candidates (and then defended and argue over them) is unimaginable to me, and it must end.  We must demand better of our representatives.  

  When you're arguing about the things you are arguing about the last X pages you're losing regardless of the "side" you're on.  When we aren't talking about the contrast of policies rather who's less senile there's a problem.  Of course we can't contrast policies at the moment...that requires a minimum of two policies to be put forth.  Right now, on most subjects, we only have one, so personal insults and moronic behavior is all we have.  It appears many are missing the fact which is that is a FEATURE not a BUG.

 

[Murph]

Watching it live I definitely thought Trump was calling him poop. Reading the transcript it's clear he wasn't.

I'm usually quick to point out signs of Biden's possible dementia, but I can't blame the guy for getting confused which point he was on when he was getting interrupted every five seconds.

 

[encaitar]

Fair point. This a good argument for really pushing to end the two party system. But what can one do this election?

You wouldn't happen to have a billionaire uncle who is dying and willing to leave you his whole fortune if you spend a small portion of it in 30 days do you?  

 

[Prinefan]

What I don't understand (okay, I do), is Trump not wanting to change the rules so they each can speak in a timely manner without one yelling over the other.  It's like he doesn't really want to say anything substantive.  Then declaring himself a clear debate winner is ludicrous.  He talked more and said less.

 

[Joe Summer]

What I don't understand (okay, I do), is Trump not wanting to change the rules so they each can speak in a timely manner without one yelling over the other.  It's like he doesn't really want to say anything substantive.  Then declaring himself a clear debate winner is ludicrous.  He talked more and said less.

Trump is setting up an excuse to play the grievance card.

 

[dkp993]

You wouldn't happen to have a billionaire uncle who is dying and willing to leave you his whole fortune if you spend a small portion of it in 30 days do you?  

None of the above!

*for what it’s worth I would take the late 80’s equivalent of 30mil and say adios.  I’m good.  

 

[Anarchy99]

What I don't understand (okay, I do), is Trump not wanting to change the rules so they each can speak in a timely manner without one yelling over the other.  It's like he doesn't really want to say anything substantive.  Then declaring himself a clear debate winner is ludicrous.  He talked more and said less.

It was pretty clear to me that Trump wanted to rattle and confuse Biden to have him forget his train of thought and look disoriented and further his Biden-has-dementia-and-not-presidential-material narrative. Trump could claim he won all he wants, but it looks like the post-debate polls are trending the wrong way for Trump. Given that he is anywhere from somewhat behind to pretty far behind, he has a lot of ground to catch up. Playing to appease and solidify his base won't help him at all. He needs to either convert likely Biden voters or pick up people that are undecided or considering voting for a third party. For those that take any stock in 538's metrics, they have Biden up by almost 8 points nationally and an 80% favorite to win. They mentioned that if the election were held today, Trump would likely have only an 8-9% chance to win. Trump as an irritant won't make much of a dent in that.

 

[tonydead]

It was pretty clear to me that Trump wanted to rattle and confuse Biden to have him forget his train of thought and look disoriented and further his Biden-has-dementia-and-not-presidential-material narrative. Trump could claim he won all he wants, but it looks like the post-debate polls are trending the wrong way for Trump. Given that he is anywhere from somewhat behind to pretty far behind, he has a lot of ground to catch up. Playing to appease and solidify his base won't help him at all. He needs to either convert likely Biden voters or pick up people that are undecided or considering voting for a third party. For those that take any stock in 538's metrics, they have Biden up by almost 8 points nationally and an 80% favorite to win. They mentioned that if the election were held today, Trump would likely have only an 8-9% chance to win. Trump as an irritant won't make much of a dent in that.

Don't forget you have to time shift if you want to look at how a debate or any other event has an affect on the polling numbers.  I see a few at 538 that barely span the 29th and none that are exclusively post debate reported yet.

 

[Workhorse]

Biden's team came out with a statement that essentially said "we'll play by whatever rules the Commission calls for."

As opposed to Team Trump whining and crying about the Commission being in the tank for Joe despite it's long and deserved record of bipartisanship in it's rules and members.

 

[spodog]

The parsing out here of the details trying to show how one was better then the other in that absolute #### show train wreck of a debate is partisan politics in full bloom.  

It’s exactly what the parties in power want, us fighting over the scraps of bull#### drama while accepting the deluge of #### being shoved down our throats.  

This forum is a perfect example.  It’s FILLED with smart good people, yet we’re squabbling over tiny details while ignoring the real issue.  How we are accepting of these worst of the worst candidates (and then defended and argue over them) is unimaginable to me, and it must end.  We must demand better of our representatives.  

Legislative Branch.

TERM

LIMITS

Executive Branch

We are simply stuck for the time being.

 

[AAABatteries]

More fall out - from FoxNews:

Oliver Darcy @oliverdarcy

On Fox News, @johnrobertsFox is visibly angry that @PressSec won't offer a clear denunciation of white supremacy: "Stop deflecting. Stop blaming the media. I'm tired of it. "

I was nervous about the election all summer - I really don't think Biden is a very strong candidate and Trump does have a loyal base.  I'm not saying I'm still not slightly nervous (after all I was shocked in 2016) but I get the sense the tide has turned.  There's Trump fatigue - there's a decent amount of his support from last time that won't bother showing up to vote.  And more so a lot of people energized to get rid of him by voting for Biden.  I'm not sure what could turn things at this point but it seems like Biden's to lose. 

 

[Gr00vus]

Oh, great, complacency. That's never cost the Democrats an election before.

 

[AAABatteries]

What I don't understand (okay, I do), is Trump not wanting to change the rules so they each can speak in a timely manner without one yelling over the other.  It's like he doesn't really want to say anything substantive.  Then declaring himself a clear debate winner is ludicrous.  He talked more and said less.

It's not "like he doesn't", it's that he literally can't because he has little knowledge of the topics and he's not the most eloquent of speakers.  I'm not sure it's even possible for him to spend 2 minutes on a policy question and just answer it.  He has to bring up radical left, Hunter Biden, Hillary, Antifa, Portland, the radical left, somebody taking your guns, immigrants invading and the radical left.  It's his only move.

 

[AAABatteries]

Oh, great, complacency. That's never cost the Democrats an election before.

I'm assuming the first part of this referencing something but I'm not sure what (was it directed at me?).  The overall point is accurate - everyone must vote and not assume anything. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

It's not "like he doesn't", it's that he literally can't because he has little knowledge of the topics and he's not the most eloquent of speakers.  I'm not sure it's even possible for him to spend 2 minutes on a policy question and just answer it.  He has to bring up radical left, Hunter Biden, Hillary, Antifa, Portland, the radical left, somebody taking your guns, immigrants invading and the radical left.  It's his only move.

I think Trump is the consummate "victim".

For a supposed alpha-male, he loves to play the victim more than anyone else I know.

 

[Gr00vus]

I'm assuming the first part of this referencing something but I'm not sure what (was it directed at me?).  The overall point is accurate - everyone must vote and not assume anything. 

Yes, directed at your comment. I'm not saying you're complacent, but it sure felt like complacency set in in 2016 and it cost the Democrats.

This thing aint over until Nov 3, maybe not even then.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

It was pretty clear to me that Trump wanted to rattle and confuse Biden to have him forget his train of thought and look disoriented and further his Biden-has-dementia-and-not-presidential-material narrative. Trump could claim he won all he wants, but it looks like the post-debate polls are trending the wrong way for Trump. Given that he is anywhere from somewhat behind to pretty far behind, he has a lot of ground to catch up. Playing to appease and solidify his base won't help him at all. He needs to either convert likely Biden voters or pick up people that are undecided or considering voting for a third party. For those that take any stock in 538's metrics, they have Biden up by almost 8 points nationally and an 80% favorite to win. They mentioned that if the election were held today, Trump would likely have only an 8-9% chance to win. Trump as an irritant won't make much of a dent in that.

Agreed.  I think there are many basically apolitical people who just want things to be "normal" again without all the vitriol, and will vote for the side that seems more likely to accomplish this.  Coming across as the angrier side of a cluster of a debate is not the way to win those people over.  That said, I think Trump is shrewder than a lot of his enemies give him credit for, and would not be surprised if his approach to the second debate is markedly different.

 

[ren hoek]

Biden's team came out with a statement that essentially said "we'll play by whatever rules the Commission calls for."

As opposed to Team Trump whining and crying about the Commission being in the tank for Joe despite it's long and deserved record of bipartisanship in it's rules and members.

If by bipartisanship, you mean intentionally rigging it so that all third parties are excluded forever more, then yes.  

 

[Patrick Bateman]

While true, surely you see this for the strawman it is when all the "peaceful" protesting happening in the streets are by alt-left Antifa/BLM types.  

Starbucks on fire.......hey look there are alt-right groups too!  They might not have started this fire, but, they are white supremacists!

Alt-left? Still trying to make that a thing?

 

[proteus126]

Biden's team came out with a statement that essentially said "we'll play by whatever rules the Commission calls for."

As opposed to Team Trump whining and crying about the Commission being in the tank for Joe despite it's long and deserved record of bipartisanship in it's rules and members.

The best of all outcomes!  The Commission changes the rules, Trump says I'm Out, Biden says I was good to go.

The Commission becomes the bad guy, acting like the stern dad.  Biden looks like he was ready to give it another shot and wasn't "Hidin".  Trump doesn't have to bother with another debate (he's sick of it - that's not the forum he enjoys or scores well in).  The American people are spared two more nights of orange bloviation and grey mumbling.

 

[GROOT]

That’s interesting. Do you think their premise/actions deserve condemnation?

Such as?

 

[yak651]

I think Trump is the consummate "victim".

For a supposed alpha-male, he loves to play the victim more than anyone else I know.

Almost like he's acting like the "snow flakes" his base like to call out...that and support cancel culture of boycotting NFL, Good Year, etc maybe the far right has more in common with the libs than they would like to believe...

 

[Joe Summer]

Good chance the 2nd debate gets postponed now.

 

[squistion]

Good chance the 2nd debate gets postponed now.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1311898837707943938

Brian Williams raises a good question on @MSNBC : Will the other presidential debates go on? The answer is likely no.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

We’ve done Supreme Court arguments over zoom. Teachers across the country are lecturing students via remote streaming.  Provided Tump is feeling fine, there’s no reason they can’t have a remote debate.  If he is suffering from any serious COVID symptoms, it’s obviously a different matter. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Such as?

My goodness, you guys are quick to praise the Proud Boys’ multiculturalism, but reluctant to say anything else about them. 

Is anything about the Proud Boys worthy of condemnation?

Oh, what the heck, I’ll be more concrete. Do you agree with their premise, so-called “Western Chauvinism”? Do you condone using violence to promote their cause?

 

[The Commish]

Plenty of ways to have a "debate" these days and it'd be smart for Joe to get out in front of this and say he's up for any method the committee chooses.  If they don't go forward with them it's because Trump doesn't want to    I'm sure the Dems will brick this layup though.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Plenty of ways to have a "debate" these days and it'd be smart for Joe to get out in front of this and say he's up for any method the committee chooses.  If they don't go forward with them it's because Trump doesn't want to    I'm sure the Dems will brick this layup though.

If he’s sick at all, it would be interesting to hear Trump’s response. A lot of his tactics would be foiled by a remote debate.

 

[gianmarco]

ZOOM DEBATE!!

And the Mute Mic function availability is perfect!

 

[gianmarco]

Interesting if all true.....

Leader of 'white supremacist' Proud Boys is state director of unofficial support group called Latinos for Trump and has ties to Republicans including the president's son Don Jr., Senator Ted Cruz and Roger Stone, who is a member.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Interesting if all true.....

Leader of 'white supremacist' Proud Boys is state director of unofficial support group called Latinos for Trump and has ties to Republicans including the president's son Don Jr., Senator Ted Cruz and Roger Stone, who is a member.

Not sure about all those ties, but Roger Stone’s name comes up frequently in descriptions of the group. Wouldn’t surprise me if Biden was aware of the connection when he chose the Proud Boys for Trump to denounce.

 

[GROOT]

My goodness, you guys are quick to praise the Proud Boys’ multiculturalism, but reluctant to say anything else about them. 

Is anything about the Proud Boys worthy of condemnation?

Oh, what the heck, I’ll be more concrete. Do you agree with their premise, so-called “Western Chauvinism”? Do you condone using violence to promote their cause?

Far right Christion quasi-militia group.The First white supremecist group led a black latino. Sure.  Show me a picture of a proud boy hurling a molotov cocktail through a shop window or at police. Show me a footage of one going crazy and shooting people, or showing up for the purpose of rioting. The thing is... it's not happening.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Far right Christion quasi-militia group.The First white supremecist group led a black latino. Sure.  Show me a picture of a proud boy hurling a molotov cocktail through a shop window or at police. Show me a footage of one going crazy and shooting people, or showing up for the purpose of rioting. The thing is... it's not happening.

I take it you think they’re A-Ok, kinda like the white power hand gesture in so many of their photos? 

But since you asked, here’s an article and videos of Proud Boys acting up, including one guy who got arrested for shooting people with a paintball gun, then brandishing another gun with bullets.

And to be clear, not starting riots or hurling Molotov cocktails doesn’t preclude one from being a violent white supremacist.

 

[Ilov80s]

The Founder of the Proud Boys openly calls for violence. This isn't even a debate. 

 

[massraider]

The Founder of the Proud Boys openly calls for violence. This isn't even a debate. 

https://twitter.com/ShaneClaiborne/status/1311429309500882947?s=19

 

[Terminalxylem]

The Founder of the Proud Boys openly calls for violence. This isn't even a debate. 

Yep. It’s silly to argue otherwise, but some people act like they’re just a fun-loving fraternity of vigilante hipsters.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Not sure about all those ties, but Roger Stone’s name comes up frequently in descriptions of the group. Wouldn’t surprise me if Biden was aware of the connection when he chose the Proud Boys for Trump to denounce.

I am sure Biden knew the connection. He didn't pick them randomly. 

 

[gianmarco]

Btw, absolutely love this.

Proud Boys hashtag taken over by LGBT community

 

[Prinefan]

Btw, absolutely love this.

Proud Boys hashtag taken over by LGBT community

Ditto.  Loving it!!!

 

[Terminalxylem]

Good chance the 2nd debate gets postponed now.

I just realized the WH is being vague about some of Trump's clinical findings, but specific about others, to facilitate the debate remaining on-schedule.

The issue is 10 versus 20 days isolation. Most people only need 10 days, except those with severe immunocompromise (AIDS, on cancer chemotherapy or other immune suppressing drugs) or severe covid. Both groups have been shown to have prolonged viral shedding as they convalesce, hence the longer isolation.  

The isolation clock starts when the following criteria are met:

1. No fever for 24 hours, off fever reducing medications.

2. Other symptoms are improving.

Trump's physician has been very explicit about both of these criteria, laying the groundwork for Trump to be removed from isolation 10 days after Saturday, 10/3, two days before the originally scheduled second debate on 10/15.

There are a couple problems with this timeline. First, dexamethasone reduces fever, so technically he can't meet criteria 1 until no longer taking it. The standard treatment course is ten days.

More importantly, he has/had severe covid according to the CDC. Severe disease is defined respiratory rate greater than 30, room air oxygen saturation < 94% or lung infiltrates occupying > 50% of chest imagery (x-ray or CT scan). This may help to explain why his doctor was vague/avoidant when asked about Trump's lowest oxygen saturation and chest x-ray findings. As far as I can tell, he eventually admitted the saturations were below 94%, and Trump's treatment regimen certainly suggests he met criteria for severe covid.

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out, but I don't see how Trump can be officially removed from quarantine until 10/23. If he takes a full course of dexamethasone, an argument can be made to delay even longer, to the end of October.

 

[Quint]

Question 1: kinda, almost answered that one. 

 

[massraider]

WASHINGTON —  

President Trump rejected the idea of remotely debating former Vice President Joe Biden, shortly after the Commission on Presidential Debates announced on Thursday that the next event would be held virtually.

“I’m not going to waste my time on a virtual debate. That’s not what debating is all about,” Trump said on Fox Business. 

This is a mistake. He will either come off as afraid, or insensitive, considering the petri dish of a WH we have right now.

 

[massraider]

Trump says they will do a rally instead. 



Perfect, just perfect. 

We have four more weeks of this group just brutalizing this candidacy.

 

[belljr]

Then what is a debate all about?

 

[Terminalxylem]

WASHINGTON —  

President Trump rejected the idea of remotely debating former Vice President Joe Biden, shortly after the Commission on Presidential Debates announced on Thursday that the next event would be held virtually.

“I’m not going to waste my time on a virtual debate. That’s not what debating is all about,” Trump said on Fox Business. 

This is a mistake. He will either come off as afraid, or insensitive, considering the petri dish of a WH we have right now.

That’s a win for all of us, as I can’t imagine anything useful from a second debate in any format, after what we saw in the first debacle.

I just hope some medical experts emphasize the isolation guidelines, which Trump will surely violate in the weeks before Election Day.