1.3 million to lose unemployment benefits today (1 Viewer)

[mad sweeney]

Just ship off 1.3 million illegals. Problem solved.

Yeah, but then the innocent people who hire them will have to pay an actual decent wage to replace them.

Tim is the only one who would have a problem with that.

I would imagine that the people who paid illegals cheaply under the table would have a problem with it too.

 

[jamny]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

 

[mad sweeney]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

Business leaders in America seem to disagree with the bolded.

 

[jamny]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

Business leaders in America seem to disagree with the bolded.

Of course. And if there is any way to ever disconnect big business and unions from politics, maybe we'll get to realize the bolded. Not holding my breath.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know.

The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Just ship off 1.3 million illegals. Problem solved.

Yeah, but then the innocent people who hire them will have to pay an actual decent wage to replace them.

Tim is the only one who would have a problem with that.

I would imagine that the people who paid illegals cheaply under the table would have a problem with it too.

Yeah I really don't care what people who were breaking the law think.

 

[jamny]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know.

The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

 

[timschochet]

Just ship off 1.3 million illegals. Problem solved.

Yeah, but then the innocent people who hire them will have to pay an actual decent wage to replace them.

Tim is the only one who would have a problem with that.

I would imagine that the people who paid illegals cheaply under the table would have a problem with it too.

Yeah I really don't care what people who were breaking the law think.

Just another so-called "conservative" with no understanding of the marketplace. You think you can fix prices (e.g., minimum wage) and enforce it by law? You can't. The Soviet Union, which was a police state, couldn't stop the black market, and we can't either. No matter what you try to do, people will earn what they're worth. Period. The reason we have illegal immigrants in this country is because they perform services at the market wage, which happens to be below minimum wage. Go ahead and spend billions of dollars in a wasted effort to deport them. All you'll end up doing is creating more.

 

[timschochet]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know.

The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

This can be accomplished. Build the super highway between Texas and Mexico, that Rick Perry was in favor of before the nativists got to him. Expand free trade. Open the border.

 

[tommyGunZ]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

You're a smart dude, and this reads like a post made by a toothless hillbilly in rural Arkansas. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're 6+ drinks deep.

 

[jamny]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know.

The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

This can be accomplished. Build the super highway between Texas and Mexico, that Rick Perry was in favor of before the nativists got to him. Expand free trade. Open the border.

I'm not in favor of opening the borders but I am in favor of helping their economy to prosper. I'm sure most of them want to stay in Mexico. You're not seeing a big issue on our northern border. We should at least try to change Made in China to Made in Mexico. For many, many reasons.

 

[jamny]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

You're a smart dude, and this reads like a post made by a toothless hillbilly in rural Arkansas. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're 6+ drinks deep.

I will admit to that but will not offer it as an excuse!

 

[jamny]

link

Our economy needs something. This is quickly turning into a lost decade.

 

[Joe T]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know. The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

This can be accomplished. Build the super highway between Texas and Mexico, that Rick Perry was in favor of before the nativists got to him. Expand free trade. Open the border.

I'm not in favor of opening the borders but I am in favor of helping their economy to prosper. I'm sure most of them want to stay in Mexico. You're not seeing a big issue on our northern border. We should at least try to change Made in China to Made in Mexico. For many, many reasons.

You don't think we've tried that and continue to try to do so?

For many reasons, it is very difficult to run profitable businesses in Mexico.

 

[jamny]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know. The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

This can be accomplished. Build the super highway between Texas and Mexico, that Rick Perry was in favor of before the nativists got to him. Expand free trade. Open the border.

I'm not in favor of opening the borders but I am in favor of helping their economy to prosper. I'm sure most of them want to stay in Mexico. You're not seeing a big issue on our northern border. We should at least try to change Made in China to Made in Mexico. For many, many reasons.

You don't think we've tried that and continue to try to do so?

For many reasons, it is very difficult to run profitable businesses in Mexico.

and it's not difficult to run a business in Communist China? Profitable or not?

 

[Joe T]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know. The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

This can be accomplished. Build the super highway between Texas and Mexico, that Rick Perry was in favor of before the nativists got to him. Expand free trade. Open the border.

I'm not in favor of opening the borders but I am in favor of helping their economy to prosper. I'm sure most of them want to stay in Mexico. You're not seeing a big issue on our northern border. We should at least try to change Made in China to Made in Mexico. For many, many reasons.

You don't think we've tried that and continue to try to do so?For many reasons, it is very difficult to run profitable businesses in Mexico.

and it's not difficult to run a business in Communist China? Profitable or not?

Less so than Mexico.

 

[Mark Davis]

Also, just want to point out Tim often claims to be a "free market" conservative, but here is yet another example where he refuses to allow the free market to work and wants government intervention to "reduce pain."

I love the free market, in principle. But we don't have it. And what irks me greatly are people like you who think we do have it, and base their practical political viewpoints on what we should have, rather than what we actually have.Since 1933, we have lived in a welfare state, in which government involvement has only increased over time. THAT is the reality. We cannot escape the entanglement of government; it affects every bit of our lives. It is naive to the extreme to suppose that if we cut unemployment benefits, that will end our collective responsibility to these people. We will still have to pay for them in dozens of other ways, only it will be that much more expensive. Arguing for free market principles in this situation, completely out of context of reality, is insanity.

So you are in favor of increasing government responsibility as you call it here? To me that is the opposite of believing in a free market. Agreeing to a free market in principle would I think at least entail having some cap on government intervention when possible.

Free market principles should begin at the top rung, not the bottom. I'm in favor of slashing corporate tax rates, and even more so of reducing needless red tape restrictions on new businesses. I want to help create the sort of environment in which new jobs in the private sector are more likely to increase, rather than decrease. Government cannot create wealth, but it can set up an environment in which the creation of wealth is more likely than not. THOSE are the free market principles that we should be espousing.But cutting off aid to the unemployed in a society in which there is too much unemployed already- I don't see how that helps the free market. I don't see how that helps anyone. It's a blind adherence to a principle which really doesn't apply.

I didn't realize free market philosophy started or ended on any rung. By the same token I don't blindly adhere to any philosophy. I'm all for having some safety net for the unemployed people in our economy, especially in times like now.Again, I'm not advocating cutting off someone actively looking. But there has to be some cap on it, even if it's 2% of those on unemployment who would just take it indefinitely, why would you think subsidizing their decision to not work is economically beneficial? You throw out that you in theory believe in free market principles, but supporting unlimited government intervention would be a fundamental difference with that philosophy. Therefore I don't see how you can say you even believe in it in theory because you are advocating the opposite. And that's fine if you do, it's just simply not accurate at that point to say you believe in something which it's readily apparent that you don't.

So you are in favor of an extension?

Yes, I don't agree with the time period being indefinite, or even the extension itself being indefinite. But to extend it some period of time during a slow economic time I can agree with. I think it needs to be revisited as the economy and unemployment, hopefully, improve.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know. The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

Much rather see the jobs go to Mexico than China

This can be accomplished. Build the super highway between Texas and Mexico, that Rick Perry was in favor of before the nativists got to him. Expand free trade. Open the border.

I'm not in favor of opening the borders but I am in favor of helping their economy to prosper. I'm sure most of them want to stay in Mexico. You're not seeing a big issue on our northern border. We should at least try to change Made in China to Made in Mexico. For many, many reasons.

You don't think we've tried that and continue to try to do so?

For many reasons, it is very difficult to run profitable businesses in Mexico.

Doesn't NAFTA controls influence this? China has little regulation or controls, I think that plays a role. Basically China can burn the ozone, menace unproductive workers, and have 11-year-old girls work 18 hour days.

 

[timschochet]

Also, just want to point out Tim often claims to be a "free market" conservative, but here is yet another example where he refuses to allow the free market to work and wants government intervention to "reduce pain."

I love the free market, in principle. But we don't have it. And what irks me greatly are people like you who think we do have it, and base their practical political viewpoints on what we should have, rather than what we actually have.Since 1933, we have lived in a welfare state, in which government involvement has only increased over time. THAT is the reality. We cannot escape the entanglement of government; it affects every bit of our lives. It is naive to the extreme to suppose that if we cut unemployment benefits, that will end our collective responsibility to these people. We will still have to pay for them in dozens of other ways, only it will be that much more expensive. Arguing for free market principles in this situation, completely out of context of reality, is insanity.

So you are in favor of increasing government responsibility as you call it here? To me that is the opposite of believing in a free market. Agreeing to a free market in principle would I think at least entail having some cap on government intervention when possible.

Free market principles should begin at the top rung, not the bottom. I'm in favor of slashing corporate tax rates, and even more so of reducing needless red tape restrictions on new businesses. I want to help create the sort of environment in which new jobs in the private sector are more likely to increase, rather than decrease. Government cannot create wealth, but it can set up an environment in which the creation of wealth is more likely than not. THOSE are the free market principles that we should be espousing.But cutting off aid to the unemployed in a society in which there is too much unemployed already- I don't see how that helps the free market. I don't see how that helps anyone. It's a blind adherence to a principle which really doesn't apply.

I didn't realize free market philosophy started or ended on any rung. By the same token I don't blindly adhere to any philosophy. I'm all for having some safety net for the unemployed people in our economy, especially in times like now.Again, I'm not advocating cutting off someone actively looking. But there has to be some cap on it, even if it's 2% of those on unemployment who would just take it indefinitely, why would you think subsidizing their decision to not work is economically beneficial? You throw out that you in theory believe in free market principles, but supporting unlimited government intervention would be a fundamental difference with that philosophy. Therefore I don't see how you can say you even believe in it in theory because you are advocating the opposite. And that's fine if you do, it's just simply not accurate at that point to say you believe in something which it's readily apparent that you don't.

So you are in favor of an extension?

Yes, I don't agree with the time period being indefinite, or even the extension itself being indefinite. But to extend it some period of time during a slow economic time I can agree with. I think it needs to be revisited as the economy and unemployment, hopefully, improve.

I think we're closer then that I figured.

 

[sporthenry]

Well the good part is that Mexico's manufacturing is increasing and many analysts think its competitive advantage (even over China) will be sustainable as China will have to deal with increasing wages.

However, this discussion is pretty silly. Globalization makes it impossible to just increase manufacturing. Big business execs have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize value. Beyond that, prices would go up and American consumers would either look elsewhere or buy less. Just look at WalMart, everyone is outraged that it opens on Thanksgiving, treats it workers like ####, etc. Yet, plenty of people still shop there b/c it's cheap. Manufacturing is going to follow cheap labor especially as technology increases and commodifies the products.

The good news is that US is increasing its manufacturing but on the flip side, that is b/c wages are more reasonable. Beyond that, manufacturing will continue to be automated and even beyond that, manufacturers are struggling to find qualified workers b/c Americans want to go to college. But even then, hanging on to manufacturing jobs isn't a long term solution.

 

[Steve Tasker]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy.

I disagree with this 100%.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

However, this discussion is pretty silly.

As opposed to hearing Max Threshold/Jim 11 tell us about how Obama is destroying America in every thread in the FFA? I think not.

This is actually a good discussion.

 

[DrJ]

If we could export Twitter, Facebook, and tim FBG posts we'd be rich.

 

[msommer]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

I want to agree with you but manufacturing in this country is just not cost effective and it is not in our capitalist ways to shift the trend. Japan used to make toys and all the crap that is consumed, they don't any more. Taiwan also, it all went to China. Now some of the stuff China does is shifting to Bangladesh and Pakistan among others, and so goes the cycle of manufacturing. My prediction? Africa will eventually take up a lot of the slack, China is more entrenched there than most know.

The U.S. is now a place of ideas and initiative and I don't see that falling off in my lifetime. China is good at stealing our ideas and copying them, I don't see that stopping either but China will go through many of the changes we already have as more money flows to their population. It's a slippery slope but for big business, you export the labor for the bottom line. I know you already know this and I don't like it any more than you do, but it is our reality. I do however see lots of opportunity for craft goods and materials, high-end stuff where your return is going to be at the price point that you can afford paying labor. Stuff like kitchen cabinets, furniture, alcohol, ecigarette juice (I am seeing this first-hand and the quality and creativity is astounding), etc.

Anyway I'm from Detroit, seeing the decline of the American industrial machine is something I probably think about every day. I don't like it, but I think our economic prowess is far from being extinguished even beyond a consumer-centric economy.

One trend that here in Europe is working to reverse the outsourcing on the basis of purchasing price only is the environment and concerns about how our actions affect it, This is not yet a particularly powerful trend even here but it is being talked about yet. There are in certain industries that are beginning to bring back manufacturing from Asia to areas closer with lower pay, like Eastern or Southern Europe, principally because it is being realized that the bare bones purchase price of an item does not begin to cover the real cost to the company considering the more complex supply chains and the risks (and costs) inherent therein. Don't get me wrong, this is still a cost issue, but such decisions are generally prettied up nice, green and sustainable for the public.

In the UK there is a lot of talk about food miles, the notion that it is better for the environment that you buy from the local area, which without a cahnge in consumption habits to only buy the products that naturally occur where you live is not really a viable stance. A tomato grown in Morocco and transported by sea to the UK in winter is more environmentally friendly than a tomato grown in a UK greenhouse at the same time.

I think you are right about the Chinese looking to Africa for future manufacturing but I think we are a ways away yet. Currently the majority of the Chinese investments in African countries center around mining and fossil fuels, to stoke the Chinese based manufacturing, The Chinese mines at least anecdotally transfer very little skills or indeed local wealth to the communities (in a very capitalist way, like 19th century concerns for work safety and upward mobility are the standards from what I have heard and seen). The move to Africa ties in with the move inland in manufacturing. China's main production areas have been around the coast line and the workforce has traditionally been migratory in nature, contract workers from the interior moving to the cities for work, but in contrast to other, freer, places in the world they are not allowed to stay after their contracts are over and are forced to either stay illegally or return to their origin. It is not a good life and it is becoming harder to find enough people to take care of the continuing expansion of manufacturing, so wages are rising, which makes China less competitive overall. At the same time the Chinese government is trying to move factories inland to start manufacturing closer to where the workers originate in order to meet the demand for goods from the growing Chinese middle class of the coastal regions.

It would not be a huge surprise to me over the next 20-30 years to see manufacturing for export becoming a lot less important to China than it is today, owing to the developments in a number of these trends

 

[snogger]

Danish studies show that the longer a person goes without a job, the harder it is to find work. Many people get a job within the first three months of entering the system, but many more wait until just before benefits expire to take anything available.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/why-denmark-is-shrinking-its-social-safety-net/?_r=0

“It shows that people are not seeking all the jobs they could get, but just the jobs they would like to have,” said Steen Bocian, chief economist at Danske Bank.

When given the opportunity to wait for the "perfect" job some will do so if they have money coming in..

When you tell them the money is going to stop coming in, most drop their high expectations and look for a job that may not be their dream job, but pays the bills.

 

[MaxThreshold]

However, this discussion is pretty silly.

As opposed to hearing Max Threshold/Jim 11 tell us about how Obama is destroying America in every thread in the FFA? I think not.

This is actually a good discussion.

Whatever, drama-queen.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Danish studies show that the longer a person goes without a job, the harder it is to find work. Many people get a job within the first three months of entering the system, but many more wait until just before benefits expire to take anything available.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/why-denmark-is-shrinking-its-social-safety-net/?_r=0

“It shows that people are not seeking all the jobs they could get, but just the jobs they would like to have,” said Steen Bocian, chief economist at Danske Bank.

When given the opportunity to wait for the "perfect" job some will do so if they have money coming in..

When you tell them the money is going to stop coming in, most drop their high expectations and look for a job that may not be their dream job, but pays the bills.

And that makes perfect sense when you think about it. Letting anyone remain on unemployment for years is beyond ridiculous imo and goes against everything the program was designed to do.

 

[Sand]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy.

I disagree with this 100%.

And you should. The US is a massive manufacturing economy. Everyone seems to think that the US is losing its mojo here. The manufacturing sector is growing and is currently, by GDP measures, the 10th largest country in the world.

The reason that people think we are losing our way is that we are exporting or dramatically increasing the manufacturing efficiency for the low margin items (textiles, widgets, electronics) - these are high visibility items. We are very profitable on the high margin, specialty items - jet engines, pharmaceuticals, etc. that don't have nearly the visibility that other things do.

Even more visible are job losses. These, for the most part, come due to increases in efficiency. We just don't need nearly as much labor (much of that labor being blue collar) that we used to. This has wide ranging effects from the cost of education to the growing wealth gap to our immigration pressures. Specifically education costs more as it is much more necessary resulting in the increasing wealth gap we see. And we see immigration pressures as the current lot we are saddled with are generally much lower education than is useful - so folding them in is a net deficit and causes even more wage pressures on the low end, who are already hurting due to the increase in manufacturing efficiencies.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I'm not saying we shouldn't necessarily have a limit; I'm merely pointing out that I see no purpose in having a limit simply because, well, we should have a limit. I prefer to look at the situation right now. Right now it is good for our society that these people stay on unemployment.

How would you go about calculating the right time to impose a limit?

I think a good place to start would be to determine what is the rate at which people come off of unemployment after 26 weeks and before 52 weeks.

For example if 95% of people that made it to 26 weeks also made it to 52 weeks, then it is pretty stupid to extend the benefits.

If only 10% of the people that made it to 26 weeks make it to 52 weeks then there is a good justification for the extension.

 

[Fennis]

We need a real leader that will recognize that this country needs to stop the tide of us turning into a service economy and bring us back into being a manufacturing economy. We can all differ on how we want that to happen but someone needs to make the case to the American people. The cheapest price isn't always the answer. Made in America used to mean something.

The US has the largest manufacturing economy in the world, by a pretty significant margin. We don't need to (nor should we want to) produce cheap plastic crap. We make complicated manufacturing that takes skill and pays workers well like medical devices.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Community service is all good and fine but that isn't a solution to the problem. I think every able bodied person that applies should have to take an aptitude test. The higher your score, the more money you get. Then you would be placed in a class/grade depending on the results of the test. You would then be given an education with the promise of more money for every level you graduate. I would be fine doing this all the way up to a college degree.

There are some issues to work out with this of course but I think it would be a good start to ending the cycle of poverty handed down from generation to generation.

 

[Slapdash]

I don't really have a problem with letting these expire. This program has one of the more questionable cost/benefit tradeoffs. It is time to realize we have created a new, permanent lower level of employment with a timid government response to the collapse in 2008. Best to divert resources to the new problems of increased poverty and unemployable workers than to pay people not to take a lesser job.

Not that we will actually divert resources to that purpose....

 

[DrJ]

I don't really have a problem with letting these expire. This program has one of the more questionable cost/benefit tradeoffs. It is time to realize we have created a new, permanent lower level of employment with a timid government response to the collapse in 2008. Best to divert resources to the new problems of increased poverty and unemployable workers than to pay people not to take a lesser job.

Not that we will actually divert resources to that purpose....

Don't you actually need resources to be able to divert them? All I see is a black hole of debt.

 

[glumpy]

Not indefinitely. But the question we should ask is, do we benefit as a society by removing these people from unemployment? Will it affect our deficit and debt in a significant manner, one way or the other? Is it worth it?

My impression is that it is not worth it. We gain nothing significant by cutting these people off at this time. They will add to the people looking for work, or to the homeless. They will stop being able to pay their bills, which will in turn cause companies to fail. In return for this, we subtract a few millions from a deficit which is close to a trillion a year.

Makes no sense.

Study after study shows they are looking for work right now.

Don't you have to be actively looking for work to continue to receive benefits?

I think so but don't know what the controls are now. Years ago I would get people coming in to 'apply' for a job and they actually had no interest in taking one if it was offered--just had to have my signature verifying that they were in, applying for a job.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Not indefinitely. But the question we should ask is, do we benefit as a society by removing these people from unemployment? Will it affect our deficit and debt in a significant manner, one way or the other? Is it worth it?

My impression is that it is not worth it. We gain nothing significant by cutting these people off at this time. They will add to the people looking for work, or to the homeless. They will stop being able to pay their bills, which will in turn cause companies to fail. In return for this, we subtract a few millions from a deficit which is close to a trillion a year.

Makes no sense.

Study after study shows they are looking for work right now.

Don't you have to be actively looking for work to continue to receive benefits?

I think so but don't know what the controls are now. Years ago I would get people coming in to 'apply' for a job and they actually had no interest in taking one if it was offered--just had to have my signature verifying that they were in, applying for a job.

There aren't any controls. I was on unemployment earlier this year while in grad school. All I had to do was apply for 2 jobs per week on the internet. I only applied for jobs that I would leave grad school for. I had to turn in my job search records once during the 6 months.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Not indefinitely. But the question we should ask is, do we benefit as a society by removing these people from unemployment? Will it affect our deficit and debt in a significant manner, one way or the other? Is it worth it?

My impression is that it is not worth it. We gain nothing significant by cutting these people off at this time. They will add to the people looking for work, or to the homeless. They will stop being able to pay their bills, which will in turn cause companies to fail. In return for this, we subtract a few millions from a deficit which is close to a trillion a year.

Makes no sense.

Study after study shows they are looking for work right now.

Don't you have to be actively looking for work to continue to receive benefits?

I think so but don't know what the controls are now. Years ago I would get people coming in to 'apply' for a job and they actually had no interest in taking one if it was offered--just had to have my signature verifying that they were in, applying for a job.

You don't even need a signature or any proof that you applied here in Wisconsin. We get stuff emailed to us all the time or people just randomly dropping off resumes. They come in and drop it on the waiting room table and leave.

 

[Slapdash]

I don't really have a problem with letting these expire. This program has one of the more questionable cost/benefit tradeoffs. It is time to realize we have created a new, permanent lower level of employment with a timid government response to the collapse in 2008. Best to divert resources to the new problems of increased poverty and unemployable workers than to pay people not to take a lesser job.

Not that we will actually divert resources to that purpose....

Don't you actually need resources to be able to divert them? All I see is a black hole of debt.

The US has abundant resources.

 

[avoiding injuries]

I didn't realize it was this easy. I might have to look into my stay at home wife applying.

 

[DrJ]

I don't really have a problem with letting these expire. This program has one of the more questionable cost/benefit tradeoffs. It is time to realize we have created a new, permanent lower level of employment with a timid government response to the collapse in 2008. Best to divert resources to the new problems of increased poverty and unemployable workers than to pay people not to take a lesser job.

Not that we will actually divert resources to that purpose....

Don't you actually need resources to be able to divert them? All I see is a black hole of debt.

The US has abundant resources.

If we give them a mountain of corn every year will that cut it?

 

[Joe T]

Anyone starving yet?

 

[Fennis]

Anyone starving yet?

why? are you going to Sbarro?

 

[Rove!]

Anyone starving yet?

record numbers are on food stamps...

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Anyone starving yet?

You stopping by Big Kahuna Burgers?