2015 ACC Basketball - CLOSED (use 2016 thread now) (1 Viewer)

[TobiasFunke]

lol wtf is the point of arguing these semantics?

Semantics? Isn't "sham classes" the entire thrust of the scandal? Seems reasonable to expect people to be accurate when it comes to how many of these sham classes where taken and when they were taken.

I get the UNC faithful's position on how many, but why do you care about the when? I've been told my whole life of the "Carolina Way" and all that good shtick. It seems to me "when" isn't a particular matter of concern. That it's ever happened at all is more pragmatic when looking at it through the "Carolina Way" lens.

Because my main concern is the men's basketball team, not the reputation of the undergraduate program or the women's basketball team or the football team or the athletics department. To the extent I care about that stuff I'll totally own the fact that the whole thing is a complete ####storm. And as I've said many times over the years I never ever bought or even liked that "Carolina Way" stuff

But the fact is, when you get rid of the unfounded allegations and bizarre conspiracy theories like this weird one about Dean Smith starting the whole thing, there's just not a lot of meat on the bone here when it comes to the men's basketball program in the contents of the report- if anything, the report and the PC vindicated the program and Williams. So when someone tries to put something on them that's not in the report (as many people have in this thread), I'm calling them out on it. Simple as that. Plus the sport of calling out the lack of integrity in the posts is entertaining, especially considering how concerned these people claim to be with the integrity of complete strangers who have long since left UNC.

Ah the Kabuki theatre continues. Perhaps you missed the part where Crowder herself said this started in 1993. Or, the part where by Wainstein's calculation there were 15 basketball semesters from 1999-2011 that would have been below 2.0. Or, the fact that Wayne Walden acknowledged he knew how the classes worked. But then again we know you don't care.

No, I saw all of that.

(1) Just because it started in 93 doesn't mean the MBB or Dean Smith was deeply involved/instrumental in creating it any more than it means that about the women's volleyball team. You need quite a bit more to establish an otherwise ridiculous claim like that.

(2) To show ineligibility you also have to show that the people who enrolled in those 15 paper class semesters didn't do any work in the paper class, something that isn't there- in fact the report suggests the opposite. Several MBB alums said they did a lot of work for those classes, and the only MBB alum who had previously claimed otherwise- Rashad McCants- did not respond when he was asked to speak Without showing that they didn't to the work, you've got nothing.

(3) Walden is literally the only meat on the bone here as far as MBB is concerned. And even with him, there's this: "while the ASPSA counselors- McSwain and then Walden- would occasionally suggest these classes, they did not routinely steer the players into the classes without the players' knowledge." Then right after they talk about how the players did end up there- mostly gossip with friends, just like how the frat guys ended up there- is the description of how the MBB guys claim they did the work, in contrast to the football players. That's on p 48.

Just an FYI, but Wainstein has taken a position that all the paper classes were bogus. Feel free to prove otherwise.

Interesting. Is his position is that nobody who was enrolled in those courses did legitimate work and earned the credit/grade they were awarded? Or is it just that you didn't have to do the work to earn the credit/grade? Two different things. Would have to be the former to make the players retroactively ineligible, unless all of the credits/grades awarded are tossed out as invalid, which seems unlikely.

 

[The Commish]

lol wtf is the point of arguing these semantics?

Semantics? Isn't "sham classes" the entire thrust of the scandal? Seems reasonable to expect people to be accurate when it comes to how many of these sham classes where taken and when they were taken.

I get the UNC faithful's position on how many, but why do you care about the when? I've been told my whole life of the "Carolina Way" and all that good shtick. It seems to me "when" isn't a particular matter of concern. That it's ever happened at all is more pragmatic when looking at it through the "Carolina Way" lens.

Because my main concern is the men's basketball team, not the reputation of the undergraduate program or the women's basketball team or the football team or the athletics department. To the extent I care about that stuff I'll totally own the fact that the whole thing is a complete ####storm. And as I've said many times over the years I never ever bought or even liked that "Carolina Way" stuff

But the fact is, when you get rid of the unfounded allegations and bizarre conspiracy theories like this weird one about Dean Smith starting the whole thing, there's just not a lot of meat on the bone here when it comes to the men's basketball program in the contents of the report- if anything, the report and the PC vindicated the program and Williams. So when someone tries to put something on them that's not in the report (as many people have in this thread), I'm calling them out on it. Simple as that. Plus the sport of calling out the lack of integrity in the posts is entertaining, especially considering how concerned these people claim to be with the integrity of complete strangers who have long since left UNC.

Fair enough I suppose...to just about everyone else looking at this, it's bigger than "just the basketball team" so I'm not sure it's going to go well. Reality is, the UNC basketball program is a subset of a larger program that has significant problems.

 

[tdoss]

The Unicorn of cheating...absolutely mythical in proportion.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The Unicorn of cheating...absolutely mythical in proportion.

I think you may be lost? This thread is about ACC Men's Basketball. I believe this is the thread you're looking for. Or maybe this one.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is going to be an absolute haul of a fishing trip

Well, we've gotten to the weekend and there's exhibition college ball this weekend, and real NBA games in a couple days, and real college games in just a couple weeks. So I suppose it's time to call off this expedition and make way for actual 2015 ACC Basketball discussion. Commish, I hope your expectations were met. Everyone else, I hope you were as amused and entertained as I was. Hopefully we will return to this subject in anger regularly this winter after the distinguished scholars of your alma mater's basketball team are defeated by the illiterate charlatans from Chapel Hill.

 

[Archer]

TobiasFunke you should seriously change your avatar to Rick James

"cocaine is a hell of a drug"

Dean Smith - 54 fake enrollments in 5 years. 10+ per year.

Bill Guthridge - 17 fake enrollments in 3 years. 5+ per year

Matt Doherty - 42 fake enrollments in 3 years. 14 per year.

Roy Williams - 167 fake enrollments in 8 years. 20+ per year

And you're still looking for substantial evidence that your beloved basketball program did anything wrong correct?

 

[Archer]

Former Florida State coach Pat Kennedy was on the radio in Maryland today and spoke a bit about the UNC scandal.


"Pat Kennedy said "Gary Williams will tell you this, most of the coaches in the ACC felt that Carolina was a fraud in that they walked around like they were Stanford or Vanderbilt or Northwestern, but they weren't, they were not even Duke. They took the most exceptions the last few years of Dean Smith's career they took the most exceptions of any school in the ACC. Meaning kids that would not normally get accepted into the university, that were accepted to the university to play sports. I remember one year at Carolina they had five exceptions starting on their men's basketball team. So they were taking guys with very low level qualifications and then they would keep them eligible. By putting them in these courses. So if a guy was close to not being eligible and his GPA was a 1.8 he would then take a couple of these courses and his GPA would be up to 2.4 and then everybody took a deep breath and they did it again"

"And the thing about the coaches not knowing about it in football it's possible because the coaches at different positions would know about it, but it may not get to the head coach. But in basketball the head coach would know about it because he would have to approve dropping classes and getting into another class to stay eligible for graduation."

"Coaches and athletic directors, you go to NCAA meetings and there is a lot of squabbling and coaches and ADs start pointing fingers. When I first got to the ACC I had a problem with a few coaches and a few of the other guys said 'well do you really want to be the guy to turn Dean Smith in?' and you know as a young coach I said 'I guess not' and as young coach you don't want to turn in a Nick Saban."

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

This is going to be an absolute haul of a fishing trip

Well, we've gotten to the weekend and there's exhibition college ball this weekend, and real NBA games in a couple days, and real college games in just a couple weeks. So I suppose it's time to call off this expedition and make way for actual 2015 ACC Basketball discussion. Commish, I hope your expectations were met. Everyone else, I hope you were as amused and entertained as I was. Hopefully we will return to this subject in anger regularly this winter after the distinguished scholars of your alma mater's basketball team are defeated by the illiterate charlatans from Chapel Hill.

After the season starts... When you state factual errors and/or say negative things about other posters, what procedure(s) will be in place to get corrections and apologies issued? Will there be a form to fill out? Do we PM shuke? Will there be wagering allowed, and if so, at what limits? Is the backlog already too large to get anything out from the upcoming season by April?

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is going to be an absolute haul of a fishing trip

Well, we've gotten to the weekend and there's exhibition college ball this weekend, and real NBA games in a couple days, and real college games in just a couple weeks. So I suppose it's time to call off this expedition and make way for actual 2015 ACC Basketball discussion. Commish, I hope your expectations were met. Everyone else, I hope you were as amused and entertained as I was. Hopefully we will return to this subject in anger regularly this winter after the distinguished scholars of your alma mater's basketball team are defeated by the illiterate charlatans from Chapel Hill.

After the season starts... When you state factual errors and/or say negative things about other posters, what procedure(s) will be in place to get corrections and apologies issued? Will there be a form to fill out? Do we PM shuke? Will there be wagering allowed, and if so, at what limits? Is the backlog already too large to get anything out from the upcoming season by April?

I suppose that's entirely up to you. Feel free to establish any administrative process you desire and wager as you see fit. If you prefer, you can just reply or PM me to point out said factual errors or negative personal comments, and I will correct or apologize, as appropriate. I can't make any promises regarding timeliness, other than to pledge my best efforts.

Thank you for your continued concern. I look forward to enjoying your insight and perspective during the upcoming college and professional basketball seasons.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Former Florida State coach Pat Kennedy was on the radio in Maryland today and spoke a bit about the UNC scandal.

"Pat Kennedy said "Gary Williams will tell you this, most of the coaches in the ACC felt that Carolina was a fraud in that they walked around like they were Stanford or Vanderbilt or Northwestern, but they weren't, they were not even Duke. They took the most exceptions the last few years of Dean Smith's career they took the most exceptions of any school in the ACC. Meaning kids that would not normally get accepted into the university, that were accepted to the university to play sports. I remember one year at Carolina they had five exceptions starting on their men's basketball team. So they were taking guys with very low level qualifications and then they would keep them eligible. By putting them in these courses. So if a guy was close to not being eligible and his GPA was a 1.8 he would then take a couple of these courses and his GPA would be up to 2.4 and then everybody took a deep breath and they did it again"

"And the thing about the coaches not knowing about it in football it's possible because the coaches at different positions would know about it, but it may not get to the head coach. But in basketball the head coach would know about it because he would have to approve dropping classes and getting into another class to stay eligible for graduation."

"Coaches and athletic directors, you go to NCAA meetings and there is a lot of squabbling and coaches and ADs start pointing fingers. When I first got to the ACC I had a problem with a few coaches and a few of the other guys said 'well do you really want to be the guy to turn Dean Smith in?' and you know as a young coach I said 'I guess not' and as young coach you don't want to turn in a Nick Saban."

I bet Gary would've hunted down Kennedy (both would've probably been in the same bar, so it wouldn't have taken that long) and throttled the life out of him if Williams was still coaching. Now that he's not, we'll see if he responds. Better be careful, though - MD had their own issues during his run.

 

[randall146]

". . . they walked around like they were Stanford or Vanderbilt or Northwestern, but they weren't, they were not even Duke."

lol at the totally gratuitous shot at Duke

 

[fantasycurse42]

So the season is starting soon, pretty exciting

 

[Archer]

Hey Duke fans, have you guys seen some of the video DukeBluePlanet has posted from their practices? Not that all the freshman don't look impressive (they do!) but honest to God Okafor looks like he's on another level all by himself. His post moves are so quick and smooth, and his touch is a beautiful thing to watch. I think he may surpass Mike Giminski as the best center to play at Duke during my life time at least. I remember watching Boozer, Brand, and Shelden Williams as freshman and he looks better than all of them. There is no doubt he'll be the 1st pick in the draft next year and should contend for POTY along with Paige.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

So assuming that UNC isn't hit with anything this season....what are the predictions for the conference this season?

 

[Archer]

Duke, Lousville, UNCheat, and UVA should all be very very good. I think its very possible the ACC puts 3 or 4 teams in the Elite 8 this year and 2 in the FInal Four.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I agree. I think you make a good point that Okafor and Paige should be in the hunt for POTY, but I think Okafor has the edge because it seems that they generally will give that to a versatile big man rather than an excellent, smaller point guard.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And I should add that rivals fans won't like it because they like immediate gratification of scholarship bans or vacated wins. But those are paper tigers compared to taking away the money these big time programs make and use to compete.

 

[fantasycurse42]

You guys are all hysterical... Maybe it's time we grow up a little. These kids aren't going to school to be nuclear physicists, certainly not in the ACC, maybe the Ivy

Am I the only one who could give a #### about any of these scandals ? I don't care if Todd Gurley signed memorabilia, I don't care if UNC athletes didn't go to class, I don't care if Michael Sam is making love to the head of officiating in the SEC.

The only thing I care about in the ACC is UNC dominating, which I think they can. It'll be a slightly slow start with some freshman stars getting involved, but I think they'll be a force this year.

 

[drfeelgood]

eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics.

I doubt the past players feel any hurt. In UNCs case, most of the players weren't eligible to be playing in the first place, and those fake classes helped them get their pay day.

 

[drfeelgood]

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

The PSU scandal is different than the schools getting busted for cheating, etc. I don't think the NCAA should have been involved in the Penn State/Sandusky scandal in the first place.

 

[drfeelgood]

I bet Gary would've hunted down Kennedy (both would've probably been in the same bar, so it wouldn't have taken that long) and throttled the life out of him if Williams was still coaching. Now that he's not, we'll see if he responds. Better be careful, though - MD had their own issues during his run.

You know Gary's face and eyes turned red when he read or heard about Kennedy mentioning him on the radio.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics.

I doubt the past players feel any hurt. In UNCs case, most of the players weren't eligible to be playing in the first place, and those fake classes helped them get their pay day.

True, although I think you oversell it. Talent means a lot and if they really weren't that good at basketball, they wouldn't have made the millions. Sure, being eligible gave them a stage, but really, I think the NBA has gotten players from countries and leagues all over the world, so I don't think they would be screwed if they hadn't played at UNC. In fact, I would bet that had they been found out back when they played, some lesser D1 school would have taken them in a transfer and they would have still made the NBA, albeit possibly at a lower draft position and less guaranteed money.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

The PSU scandal is different than the schools getting busted for cheating, etc. I don't think the NCAA should have been involved in the Penn State/Sandusky scandal in the first place.

Completely agree as a biased PSU alum. Terrible, terrible situation. But "cheating" to get more victories? Hardly.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

This is going to be an absolute haul of a fishing trip

Well, we've gotten to the weekend and there's exhibition college ball this weekend, and real NBA games in a couple days, and real college games in just a couple weeks. So I suppose it's time to call off this expedition and make way for actual 2015 ACC Basketball discussion. Commish, I hope your expectations were met. Everyone else, I hope you were as amused and entertained as I was. Hopefully we will return to this subject in anger regularly this winter after the distinguished scholars of your alma mater's basketball team are defeated by the illiterate charlatans from Chapel Hill.

After the season starts... When you state factual errors and/or say negative things about other posters, what procedure(s) will be in place to get corrections and apologies issued? Will there be a form to fill out? Do we PM shuke? Will there be wagering allowed, and if so, at what limits? Is the backlog already too large to get anything out from the upcoming season by April?

I suppose that's entirely up to you. Feel free to establish any administrative process you desire and wager as you see fit. If you prefer, you can just reply or PM me to point out said factual errors or negative personal comments, and I will correct or apologize, as appropriate. I can't make any promises regarding timeliness, other than to pledge my best efforts.

Thank you for your continued concern. I look forward to enjoying your insight and perspective during the upcoming college and professional basketball seasons.

Your post crushing St Louis Bob earlier this week: when you read it over before hitting Add Reply, what made you say to yourself, "Yes, this isn't saying anything negative about another poster and is only sticking to the facts"?

 

[Tango]

You guys are all hysterical... Maybe it's time we grow up a little. These kids aren't going to school to be nuclear physicists, certainly not in the ACC, maybe the Ivy

Am I the only one who could give a #### about any of these scandals ? I don't care if Todd Gurley signed memorabilia, I don't care if UNC athletes didn't go to class, I don't care if Michael Sam is making love to the head of officiating in the SEC.

The only thing I care about in the ACC is UNC dominating, which I think they can. It'll be a slightly slow start with some freshman stars getting involved, but I think they'll be a force this year.

If UNC hadnt pounded its chest for decades about how clean and wonderful it was as it was looking down on everybody else...then you might get a second thought from me.

UNC needs to burn.

 

[apalmer]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

So if a school has enough rich alumni to foot the bill, they should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win titles? T. Boone Pickens alone could turn OSU into a dynasty in all sports. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

 

[Archer]

If any school in the history of the NCAA has deserved the death penalty, its UNCheat right now. There has NEVER been a scandal of this magnitude that spread across multiple sports. They cheated a million times and just kept doing it, for decades. Its honestly hard to believe. And yes, no one is going to have sympathy for them because of their "better than you/the carolina way" crap we heard for so long. I guess they were the best in hindsight, the best at cheating.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

So if a school has enough rich alumni to foot the bill, they should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win titles? T. Boone Pickens alone could turn OSU into a dynasty in all sports. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

I don't agree with this.

There are only so many roster/scholarship spots on a team each year. I don't care if Pickens gets the top 5 HS BB players every year - other schools are getting players just as good (see: recruiting rankings being a crap shoot). Every large university has a crap load of rich boosters.

 

[Archer]

Honestly, this is the most delusional man on the planet. Does anyone think he believes his own lies??? I really hope that somehow this fool is able to keep his job after they bring down the death penalty. He's just too much fun when placed in front of a microphone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE&feature=youtu.be (Roy Williams press conference regarding scandal)

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Honestly, this is the most delusional man on the planet. Does anyone think he believes his own lies??? I really hope that somehow this fool is able to keep his job after they bring down the death penalty. He's just too much fun when placed in front of a microphone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE&feature=youtu.be (Roy Williams press conference regarding scandal)

Honest question:

How old are you?

 

[meanjoegreen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE&feature=youtu.be (Roy Williams press conference regarding scandal)

He says that his kids in the AFAM classes tried to do the right thing, and tried to do the work that was assigned. lol What work? The one paper they had to write, and it could basically be a sentence. I think his "dumbfoundedness" is an act.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

So if a school has enough rich alumni to foot the bill, they should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win titles? T. Boone Pickens alone could turn OSU into a dynasty in all sports. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

I don't agree with this.

There are only so many roster/scholarship spots on a team each year. I don't care if Pickens gets the top 5 HS BB players every year - other schools are getting players just as good (see: recruiting rankings being a crap shoot). Every large university has a crap load of rich boosters.

Most rich alumni are rich because they made money by being smart and making good business decisions. Just giving a ton of money to your alma mater to pass on to charities or the NCAA is not a good business decision. I think it would be less of a problem than you suggest.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE&feature=youtu.be (Roy Williams press conference regarding scandal)

He says that his kids in the AFAM classes tried to do the right thing, and tried to do the work that was assigned. lol What work? The one paper they had to write, and it could basically be a sentence. I think his "dumbfoundedness" is an act.

I don't think he's dumb at all. I think his personality and speaking style make him sound "dumber" than he is. Of course, I've met lots of people in the South who speak slowly like that. They can't all be dumb though, right?

 

[Uruk-Hai]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

So if a school has enough rich alumni to foot the bill, they should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win titles? T. Boone Pickens alone could turn OSU into a dynasty in all sports. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

I don't agree with this.

There are only so many roster/scholarship spots on a team each year. I don't care if Pickens gets the top 5 HS BB players every year - other schools are getting players just as good (see: recruiting rankings being a crap shoot). Every large university has a crap load of rich boosters.

Most rich alumni are rich because they made money by being smart and making good business decisions. Just giving a ton of money to your alma mater to pass on to charities or the NCAA is not a good business decision. I think it would be less of a problem than you suggest.

I'm not suggesting that it would be a problem at all. Just the opposite - open this ####er up and let schools bid on players.

 

[meanjoegreen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE&feature=youtu.be (Roy Williams press conference regarding scandal)

He says that his kids in the AFAM classes tried to do the right thing, and tried to do the work that was assigned. lol What work? The one paper they had to write, and it could basically be a sentence. I think his "dumbfoundedness" is an act.

I don't think he's dumb at all. I think his personality and speaking style make him sound "dumber" than he is. Of course, I've met lots of people in the South who speak slowly like that. They can't all be dumb though, right?

He said he was dumbfounded. Dumbfounded doesn't mean dumb.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

So if a school has enough rich alumni to foot the bill, they should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win titles? T. Boone Pickens alone could turn OSU into a dynasty in all sports. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

I don't agree with this.

There are only so many roster/scholarship spots on a team each year. I don't care if Pickens gets the top 5 HS BB players every year - other schools are getting players just as good (see: recruiting rankings being a crap shoot). Every large university has a crap load of rich boosters.

Most rich alumni are rich because they made money by being smart and making good business decisions. Just giving a ton of money to your alma mater to pass on to charities or the NCAA is not a good business decision. I think it would be less of a problem than you suggest.

I'm not suggesting that it would be a problem at all. Just the opposite - open this ####er up and let schools bid on players.

Ah, I see. Eh, not sure I like that idea.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWwQOgqGEVE&feature=youtu.be (Roy Williams press conference regarding scandal)

He says that his kids in the AFAM classes tried to do the right thing, and tried to do the work that was assigned. lol What work? The one paper they had to write, and it could basically be a sentence. I think his "dumbfoundedness" is an act.

I don't think he's dumb at all. I think his personality and speaking style make him sound "dumber" than he is. Of course, I've met lots of people in the South who speak slowly like that. They can't all be dumb though, right?

He said he was dumbfounded. Dumbfounded doesn't mean dumb.

It probably should though, right? Dumbfounded means, or should mean, temporarily dumb. Sort of like Dumbstruck. But if this happened over a long period of time, he couldn't have been dumbfounded the whole time right? Unless he was really just dumb.

 

[Tau837]

IMO it's only a matter of time before Roy is caught in a lie about this.

Doherty, Bunting, and Fox all knew about it. Fox has already been caught lying about his knowledge. Doherty and Bunting admitted their knowledge. Guthridge told Doherty to keep the program going, so he knew about it.

Wayne Walden knew about it and actively participated, as he has admitted. He was a key figure in Roy's KU program who Roy brought with him to UNC.

It is simply not credible to believe Roy didn't know.

And even if he didn't, he should have. That was the issue with Valvano; he didn't know his players committed minor violations, but he should have. And he was vilified for that. This situation should be no different, except here the situation is the "The worst case in the history... There is nothing that even comes close to the level and the magnitude of this case."

NCAA rules hold him responsible regardless of whether or not it is proven he knew, so it may not matter what is proven.

Meanwhile, UNC has said it will not sanction itself further. So all that matters is what, if anything, the NCAA chooses to do. IMO it would be the last nail in the coffin of the NCAA's credibility and what it supposedly stands for if they look the other way. But I doubt anyone familiar with college sports is holding their breath expecting a major penalty.

 

[NutterButter]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

How much of a fine you talking about?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

FWIW, I think that all of vacating wins, losing scholarships and post season bans are stupid. I think the best punishment for bad schools are fines. Heavy fines. You can still have your past wins, offer scholarships and go to bowls/playoffs. But a ton of your money goes somewhere else. In Penn State's case it was obvious it should go toward child abuse charities. But in any other case, pick some charity, give the NCAA some for their work or whatever. This keeps the punishment from hurting current players by limiting scholarships, eliminates the joke of vacating wins hurting the past players who are making millions in the NBA or NFL and focuses on the real issue: putting athletics above academics. WIth money being funneled to charity or academic concerns, the football or basketball programs won't be able to keep up with the 'Jones' by building better facilities and paying outrageous salaries to coaches. If they fall behind, too bad.

As a PSU alum, I can tell you that it stinks that our OLine is terrible this year because of a lack of scholarships. But that will be fixed in a year or two. The 60 million dollars we sent to child abuse charities instead of using it to shore up facilities will be felt for most of the next decade.

How much of a fine you talking about?

I honestly don't know enough about the balance sheets of athletic departments at huge universities to give a definitive answer. I know that Penn State was fined $60 million and that was just about the same amount that it paid out to settle lawsuits to the boys who were abused. That's a lot, obviously. But it has to be enough to hurt. That's the point. I think a big fine to the athletic dept would go much, much further toward keeping colleges on the straight and narrow than vacating wins and reducing scholarships. Those don't really do that much. Even Penn State's scholarship reductions, which make our OLine this season no better than an average high school OLine, will be no problem in another couple of years. But the $60 million fine, only from the Athletic Dept of course, will hurt for quite a while.

I certainly could be wrong about this, but I think that the University heads and big, rich donors would want to be very sure that their money wasn't being thrown away just to keep some kids eligible or get some 5 star kid to your program in hopes of winning a couple of titles. That's bad business. And speaking of titles, isn't there some title 9 rule that you can't take money from a women's sport to make up for a deficit in a men's sport? So it's not like UNC could just take the field hockey budget to pay off the fine.

I don't know, it just seems to me to be a way to keep giving scholarships to kids and keep a program "going", yet make it a much tougher decision for much higher up folks in the University power structure.

 

[Archer]

Love this article, headline says it all

"Tar Heels Cheated Way To 10 Bowl Games and 3 NCAA Men's Basketball Championships"

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2014/10/23/unc-Chapel-Hill-Academic-Fraud

"In the case of 329 students," the report explains, "the grade they received in a paper class provided the ‘GPA boost’ that either kept or pushed their GPA above the 2.0 level for a semester. For 81 of those students, that GPA boost was the margin that gave them the 2.0 GPA that allowed them to graduate."

The Wainstein Report itself serves as a way for the university to cover up its own cover up. An earlier report by former North Carolina Governor Jim Martin exonerated the school's athletic program from malfeasance in what it dubbed a purely academic scandal."

Seriously, how can they avoid the death penalty? If they don't get it here, the NCAA might as well throw that option out the window....

 

[Archer]

poor James Michael McAdoo, he was cut today by the Warriors. Wonder if he holds a grudge against Roy. After his freshman year scouts projected him a top 10 pick and Roy told him he wasn't ready. Job well done Roy, job well done.

 

[Archer]

Okay Okafor will beat Paige for POTY if he plays anything like he did tonight during the blue-white game. Holy crap he's good

 

[tdoss]

poor James Michael McAdoo, he was cut today by the Warriors. Wonder if he holds a grudge against Roy. After his freshman year scouts projected him a top 10 pick and Roy told him he wasn't ready. Job well done Roy, job well done.

Sounds like Roy was right then.

But yea...I get your point...really thought that team was going to be most of the top picks in that draft but McAdoo stayed.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

poor James Michael McAdoo, he was cut today by the Warriors. Wonder if he holds a grudge against Roy. After his freshman year scouts projected him a top 10 pick and Roy told him he wasn't ready. Job well done Roy, job well done.

Sounds like Roy was right then.

But yea...I get your point...really thought that team was going to be most of the top picks in that draft but McAdoo stayed.

McAdoo is a perfect example of why projecting upside & potential is fool's gold. He was already as good as he was ever gonna be as a F. I don't think his last name helped any, either, with expectations - especially with Carolina fans.

 

[apalmer]

Okay Okafor will beat Paige for POTY if he plays anything like he did tonight during the blue-white game. Holy crap he's good

All he needs to do is arrange for every team they play to start a 2nd string center and he's got POTY sewed up.

 

[Archer]

Okay Okafor will beat Paige for POTY if he plays anything like he did tonight during the blue-white game. Holy crap he's good

All he needs to do is arrange for every team they play to start a 2nd string center and he's got POTY sewed up.

Guess you missed him dominate at the all-star games and while playing for the under 18 Olympic teams? And not sure there are a ton of 7' centers in college basketball that have the motor Marshall Plumlee does. Yeah, he stinks offensively, but defensively he's a big strong body who runs like his brothers. 2nd string or not, I'd say he's a pretty good gauge for Jah. But if you want to wait until he starts dominating the conference before you're a believer be my guest.

 

[NutterButter]

Okay Okafor will beat Paige for POTY if he plays anything like he did tonight during the blue-white game. Holy crap he's good

All he needs to do is arrange for every team they play to start a 2nd string center and he's got POTY sewed up.

Guess you missed him dominate at the all-star games and while playing for the under 18 Olympic teams? And not sure there are a ton of 7' centers in college basketball that have the motor Marshall Plumlee does. Yeah, he stinks offensively, but defensively he's a big strong body who runs like his brothers. 2nd string or not, I'd say he's a pretty good gauge for Jah. But if you want to wait until he starts dominating the conference before you're a believer be my guest.

It would be awesome if Marshall turned into another Zubek.

 

[apalmer]

Okay Okafor will beat Paige for POTY if he plays anything like he did tonight during the blue-white game. Holy crap he's good

All he needs to do is arrange for every team they play to start a 2nd string center and he's got POTY sewed up.

Guess you missed him dominate at the all-star games and while playing for the under 18 Olympic teams? And not sure there are a ton of 7' centers in college basketball that have the motor Marshall Plumlee does. Yeah, he stinks offensively, but defensively he's a big strong body who runs like his brothers. 2nd string or not, I'd say he's a pretty good gauge for Jah. But if you want to wait until he starts dominating the conference before you're a believer be my guest.

Wait until a player actually does something against real competition before anointing him POTY? No need to do that--after all, he is wearing a Duke jersey.