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2015 NBA Thread: I felt a great disturbance in the trolls, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. (2 Viewers)

Bruce Dickinson said:
Yeah, the recency bias in here is really bad, the Blatt >> Lue stuff is unsettlingly racist, and in general the weight given on how a team performs in Finals has on individual players' legacies here is just laughable.
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What the hell?

Some of you guys live in a really weird world.

 
stbugs said:
I don't know what is more comical than this post. LeBron guided the Heat to 2 of their 3 championships. The other came when they paired Shaq with Wade. So, that makes the Heat one of the few teams that can win the thing? It sure seems like LeBron's Cavs have been to the last two NBA Finals while the Heat are sitting and watching.

You are just a bitter Heat fan.

Personally, I didn't care who won this year's championship. I like Curry (Charlotte born and a Panthers fan) and I wouldn't mind Cleveland getting their first championship. I just think it is funny how much people want to tear LeBron down or blame him when they do poorly and credit others when they do well.
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No, Pat Riley guided LBJ who was kicking and screaming the entire way...it wasn't until the middle of Year 2 that he finally bought in to being a post player for the Heat...Ray Allen might have a say in that 2nd championship run, BANG!

 
stbugs said:
Wait, I don't get all this talk. Wasn't it just a week or so ago that everyone was saying how great Lue was that he told LeBron to #### in the huddle? I seem to remember quite a few posts about being glad LeBron was put in his place and that Lue was so much better than Blatt and had control over the team. Now that they lose the first two it is back to LeBron is running the team wrong again? You can't have it both ways.

It's funny that I never realized how deep seated some of the hate for LeBron is. They would be a lottery team without him, yet he is keeping them from being a championship team? LOL, he has been the finals 6 straight years. How the hell is that keeping a team from being a championship level team? He has taken Cleveland three times to the one actual series where if they win, they actually win the championship. The Cavaliers have been to 3 Finals with LeBron and 0 Finals without LeBron they have been to 0 since they started in 1970.
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*in the East.

 
tjnc09 said:
:popcorn:  
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Bench played out of their minds game 1 and a pretty standard game 2 at home.  Cavs depth is better than they are showing, but still wouldn't be enough based on how well GS is playing.  

Instead of bumping my thoughts to get your jollies, maybe you can go back to your 17% post and tell us that you made up that number or how you calculated it.  TIA

 
Cliff Clavin said:
The level of stupid in here definitely amps up during playoffs  :thumbup:
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:goodposting:

It really isn't that bad once you place everyone that's not in here posting before the final 2 series of the season on ignore. :shrug:

Really isn't much to discuss first 2 games. Golden State has just dismantled Cleveland so far. 

Looking forward to free agency and draft. I think with this cap rocketing up we're going to see a lot of trading for existing contracts this offseason.And sure to be lots of bad contracts handed out. There's a ton of similar big men available. I think the most patient teams in FA with bigs are going to benefit the most. Should be fun.

 
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Good Posting Judge said:
His FT numbers have been sliding for years. His shooting from behind the arc, which at times been passable, pretty much disappeared this year. James is still a great defender, passer and rebounder, and a tremendous player overall, obviously, but he's faded a little. He does have the best 2FGA % among non-centers this year (Durant a close 2nd, Curry 3rd), and a lot of those shots he creates for himself. That's an incredibly valuable skill.

This thread, mirroring sports media at-large, has been prone to quite a bit of recency bias. Cleveland's still a great team. They are still unlikely to get swept. People were kicking dirt all over GS a couple weeks ago. People were also tongue-kissing Cleveland after what seemed like a pretty easy walk through their conference. Sometimes outliers happen. There's just no way GS is that many points better than Cleveland at home. They're better, but not by a ton.
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Agree. Only one team wins the title every year.  Sometimes the other team is just better. If anything this should serve as to tell durant he needs to go East

 
stbugs said:
It's funny that I never realized how deep seated some of the hate for LeBron is. They would be a lottery team without him, yet he is keeping them from being a championship team?
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imagine a team led by Irving and Love. oy vey.

probably talking in the mix for the 8 seed, lots of talk about offloading both players for picks.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
There's just no way GS is that many points better than Cleveland at home. They're better, but not by a ton.
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I've heard this a few times from different people... You're obviously entitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what would sway it?

Hypothetically; GS wins in 5 with an average margin around 20 a game, would you feel differently?

 
bananafish said:
Not sure if joking but GS-OKC Game 7 was the highest rated cable NBA game ever and was the most watched program across all of television that night. The post-game show was #2.

Game 1 of GS-Cle was the highest rated opening game on ABC ever as well.

Now back to your regularly scheduled "well, people are stupid" argument.
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I had no idea, I'm just thinking about the low level of competitiveness game to game.  Maybe they don't measure how many people watch games at any point in time but rather who watch the start of the games.  

I'm not a fan of either team, nor do I tune in to watch LBJ struggle and fail for 3 hours with any pleasure.  This playoffs for the vast majority has been, game start, team up by 20, next.  

Maybe people like to watch blowouts but there's too much good crap on TV these days anyways to waste entertainment time on watching failbron.

 
Kevin Love is a fascinating basketball player.  He's now in his 8th season and the debate over whether he actually helps an NBA team win games in a significant way is no closer to resolution. 

It's also really odd that he was such a trailblazer in terms of what a 4 can bring to an offense. I wonder if some of his previous stardom was a product of his uniqueness but now the "copycats" are basically more talented versions of him.

 
I figured that Lebron was kind of saving himself all season for this moment.  But now it looks like he's just plain old.   It's over...

 
Bobcat10 said:
Bench played out of their minds game 1 and a pretty standard game 2 at home.  Cavs depth is better than they are showing, but still wouldn't be enough based on how well GS is playing.  

Instead of bumping my thoughts to get your jollies, maybe you can go back to your 17% post and tell us that you made up that number or how you calculated it.  TIA
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http://stats.nba.com/game/#!/0041500401/playertracking/

They changed one of the uncontested shots for Thompson to a contested shot since I posted that.  Curry and Thompson are not 2/11 shooters when left open.

Your point about shutting down Thompson and Curry as a positive game 1 take away still makes no sense.  I can double team both of those guys with the fifth man as a rover and shut them down statistically.  The problem with doing that is the Warriors have too many other guys that can score with ease if that is your primary defensive strategy.  Again, I'm not speaking with homer glasses on - Cleveland's defense thus far has been atrocious.  If Lue had a defensive adjustment to make, we would have seen it in game 2.  Instead, things looked even worse for Cleveland.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Kevin Love is a fascinating basketball player.  He's now in his 8th season and the debate over whether he actually helps an NBA team win games in a significant way is no closer to resolution. 

It's also really odd that he was such a trailblazer in terms of what a 4 can bring to an offense. I wonder if some of his previous stardom was a product of his uniqueness but now the "copycats" are basically more talented versions of him.
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If that last part was true Dirk would have faded away years ago. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
Kevin Love is a fascinating basketball player.  He's now in his 8th season and the debate over whether he actually helps an NBA team win games in a significant way is no closer to resolution. 

It's also really odd that he was such a trailblazer in terms of what a 4 can bring to an offense. I wonder if some of his previous stardom was a product of his uniqueness but now the "copycats" are basically more talented versions of him.
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Agreed. And adding to the level of intrigue on Love is the disagreement isn't eyeball test people vs analytics people: the old-school evaluators are split on him, and the stat nerds can't make up their minds about him, either.  

 
DrJ said:
I figured that Lebron was kind of saving himself all season for this moment.  But now it looks like he's just plain old.   It's over...
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To my uneducated eye he has lost his free floating, beat you with quickness ways and has turned into a brute, bulldozing folks.  he does seem to have lost something along the way.  It also does seem like he is somewhat less impactful on the game now.  Weird, I always liked power but I like it trying to score, not always seeking fouls.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
stbugs said:
They would be a lottery team without him.
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Bull####!!

Not in the East.
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You might want to read my post again. I was quoting the other guy who said in the same post that the Cavs would be a lottery team without him, but aren't a championship contender with him. I think he was bonkers. I can't see how a team he's taken to their only 3 NBA Finals appearances in their 46 year history as not a championship contender. He hasn't won it with them, but I would think making the NBA Finals is the definition of being a championship contender.

 
msudaisy26 said:
If that last part was true Dirk would have faded away years ago. 
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I dunno. Dirk's game is a lot harder to replicate.  Very few if any big men have his offensive creativity and shooting touch from any spot on the floor.  Love is more of a spot-up guy who rebounds well, which is easier to replicate (everyone is doing it). His one unique talent is outlet passing, but I have no idea what kind of value that offers.

It's also kinda hard to measure Dirk this way because he was already past his prime when the stretch 4 revolution took over.  So he and his team have kind of faded away over the last 3 years, but there's lots of reasons for that.  Whereas its easy to look atLove in his prime and talk about why he doesn't seem all that special any more.

 
stbugs said:
You might want to read my post again. I was quoting the other guy who said in the same post that the Cavs would be a lottery team without him, but aren't a championship contender with him. I think he was bonkers. I can't see how a team he's taken to their only 3 NBA Finals appearances in their 46 year history as not a championship contender. He hasn't won it with them, but I would think making the NBA Finals is the definition of being a championship contender.
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I think alot of it will get discounted by the lack of competitiveness in the East. No?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
To my uneducated eye he has lost his free floating, beat you with quickness ways and has turned into a brute, bulldozing folks.  he does seem to have lost something along the way.  It also does seem like he is somewhat less impactful on the game now.  Weird, I always liked power but I like it trying to score, not always seeking fouls.
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A few years ago he was over 36% from three for three straight seasons, including one year over 40%.  That part of his game stinks now (30%). Big difference for the guy defending him if they don't mind him taking a three pointer. as he gets older he really owes it to himself to bring that shot back.  The guy is still the world's best basketball player, but the toolbox isn't as full as it once was. 

 
Abraham said:
A few years ago he was over 36% from three for three straight seasons, including one year over 40%.  That part of his game stinks now (30%). Big difference for the guy defending him if they don't mind him taking a three pointer. as he gets older he really owes it to himself to bring that shot back.  The guy is still the world's best basketball player, but the toolbox isn't as full as it once was. 
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I think this run is officially over by next season. He'll certainly be in the discussion, but it will be unlike 2-3 years ago when this was unquestioned.

 
tjnc09 said:
http://stats.nba.com/game/#!/0041500401/playertracking/

They changed one of the uncontested shots for Thompson to a contested shot since I posted that.  Curry and Thompson are not 2/11 shooters when left open.

Your point about shutting down Thompson and Curry as a positive game 1 take away still makes no sense.  I can double team both of those guys with the fifth man as a rover and shut them down statistically.  The problem with doing that is the Warriors have too many other guys that can score with ease if that is your primary defensive strategy.  Again, I'm not speaking with homer glasses on - Cleveland's defense thus far has been atrocious.  If Lue had a defensive adjustment to make, we would have seen it in game 2.  Instead, things looked even worse for Cleveland.
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I never said they shut them down, I said they played those two halfway decent Game 1, which I think they did.  But whatever, you're right they didn't do a good job containing the other guys enough.  The Cavs are having too many issues on the other end so it doesn't really matter much.  Thanks for the link.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
I dunno. Dirk's game is a lot harder to replicate.  Very few if any big men have his offensive creativity and shooting touch from any spot on the floor.  Love is more of a spot-up guy who rebounds well, which is easier to replicate (everyone is doing it). His one unique talent is outlet passing, but I have no idea what kind of value that offers.

It's also kinda hard to measure Dirk this way because he was already past his prime when the stretch 4 revolution took over.  So he and his team have kind of faded away over the last 3 years, but there's lots of reasons for that.  Whereas its easy to look atLove in his prime and talk about why he doesn't seem all that special any more.
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Dirk has post game, Love really doesn't. I know post game is virtually absent in today's tactics, but it's an added dimension to Dirk that Love doesn't have. Which is a shame because Love is a pretty good passer. He could give an offense quite a few more options if he was a better back to the basket player.

I think the real difference is in what's between their ears. Dirk would do anything to win a game (except play D) and always maintains a high level of determination, Love drifts in and out of being engaged. It's why you can watch him go from stretches of first team all NBA type offensive play and board work to wondering why he's on the court within the context of a single half.

 
culdeus said:
I think alot of it will get discounted by the lack of competitiveness in the East. No?
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Effin new message board. I had a real nice reply posted. The East is 4-6 in the last 10 years in the finals. That is on par with the NFC since they had a 13-0 dominant run in the SBs (they are 8-11 since then). No one talks about that AFC dominating.

Anyway, that wasn't my point again. There is no way in the world that it makes sense to say that Cleveland isn't a championship contender with LeBron when they have been in the NBA Finals with him the past two seasons. They were one play away from being up 3-0 last year to a superior GS team. This GS team is also a superior team, simple as that. I just get tired of putting all the blame on LeBron as if he is the reason they can't win. As Cliff said, the stupid comes out and people can't see past last night.

ETA: I'll boil the last few series down to this from the LeBron haters or detractors:

Cavs Win: Lue finally took over the team and put LeBron in his place.

Cavs Lose: LeBron created/coached this team and made every decisions and he is losing with what he made.

 
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The games in Cleveland should be closer, if nothing else than because there's usually a decent size swing in bench performance home vs. road. I don't count Iguodala in that since he's a starter anywhere else, but I'd expect the benches to come closer to even at least in Cleveland. I still don't know that that would be enough to get Cleveland some wins. James is going to have to put up some high scoring triple doubles and play a ton of minutes if they're going to win.

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
:goodposting:

It really isn't that bad once you place everyone that's not in here posting before the final 2 series of the season on ignore. :shrug:

Really isn't much to discuss first 2 games. Golden State has just dismantled Cleveland so far. 

Looking forward to free agency and draft. I think with this cap rocketing up we're going to see a lot of trading for existing contracts this offseason.And sure to be lots of bad contracts handed out. There's a ton of similar big men available. I think the most patient teams in FA with bigs are going to benefit the most. Should be fun.
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I agree brohan.  I wish all the rif raff would gtfo.

 
Da Guru said:
The Warriors had a couple of sequences where their passing and ball movement left James and the rest of the Cavs just looking dumbfounded.  It was a thing of beauty that you rarely see in the NBA anymore. The way the game was meant to be played before all the isolation plays.
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You mean pre-Jordan?

 
stbugs said:
Anyway, that wasn't my point again. There is no way in the world that it makes sense to say that Cleveland isn't a championship contender with LeBron when they have been in the NBA Finals with him the past two seasons. They were one play away from being up 3-0 last year to a superior GS team.
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:lmao:  

 
Bobcat10 said:
I never said they shut them down, I said they played those two halfway decent Game 1, which I think they did.  But whatever, you're right they didn't do a good job containing the other guys enough.  The Cavs are having too many issues on the other end so it doesn't really matter much.  Thanks for the link.
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The contested shots don't have as much meaning since it doesn't account for who the defender is (Iguodala as the primary defender vs. Irving as the primary defender is oviously different) and all it measures is location. A player can "contest" a shot even if he is completely out of place.  For example, offense gets an easy dunk and the defender is on the other side of the rim with basically no chance to defend.

But the uncontested shots are very useful to look at after a game especially for a team that moves the ball and shoots as well as GS and primarily for Curry/Thompson.  If Curry and Thompson shoot a low uncontested percentage it means they simply had a bad shooting night, not because the defense played phenomenally.  Cleveland did limit their uncontested shots game 1 - I will give them that, but we know empirically those guys aren't shooting 2/11 going forward.  This happened last year too if I recall correctly.  Guys like Barnes and Green were shooting something like 12% through the first couple of games uncontested. They aren't Curry nor Thompson, but they are not that bad.

 
Gr00vus said:
Dirk has post game, Love really doesn't. I know post game is virtually absent in today's tactics, but it's an added dimension to Dirk that Love doesn't have. Which is a shame because Love is a pretty good passer. He could give an offense quite a few more options if he was a better back to the basket player.
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I think the issue is shot creation more generally, not necessarily an issue with his post game. Dirk can overcome a lack of athleticism because he's tall and long enough to shoot over most players no matter where he is on the floor, including in the post. Love isn't quick enough to create anything off the dribble and he's not quite tall enough to shoot over the front court players who guard him. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
I've heard this a few times from different people... You're obviously entitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what would sway it?

Hypothetically; GS wins in 5 with an average margin around 20 a game, would you feel differently?
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The warriors are probably around 20 points better than the sixers on a neutral court. The cavs, objectively, are a very good basketball team. Way better than the sixers, of course.

What does sway me is Lue's inability to make good adjustments, and some of his postgame comments that make me think that even with a difficult puzzle to solve, he's not on the right track. And that the Cavs were competitive to begin both games, and then completely unspooled when things went against them. 

But, i do know that NBA lines are very tough and are made by smarter people than me. And the few that can beat those lines, who are even smarter, are not coming up with their numbers based on "emotion" or "momentum."

GS might be a bit better than 3 points specifically against CLE, but not by a large amount.

 
in honor of being from austria i hope that the delly shoe has a little pouch in it where you can put stuff like in the sweet old roos shoes those things were awesome take that to the thrilla from down under in manilla bank bromigos 

 
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10 Things I learned after two games:

1.  I've been 100% right about the series so far

2.  If you say anything negative about a black coach some people will consider you a racist

3.  The west is very strong, just like always

4.  The east is an f'ing joke, just like always

5.  When LBJ plays good competition  he gets his ### handed to him

6.  LBJ is a nice player, probably top 20 all-time, but no where near Jordan, bird, or magic

7.  LBJ has been trying to take over games, but he is not able to because he's just not that good

8.  OKC and Spurs would beat the ever living #### out of Cle this year

9.  People give a lot of merit to making the finals a bunch of times in a joke of an east conference

10.  It's a long series and things could change

 
Joe T said:
10 Things I learned after two games:

1.  I've been 100% right about the series so far

2.  If you say anything negative about a black coach some people will consider you a racist

3.  The west is very strong, just like always

4.  The east is an f'ing joke, just like always

5.  When LBJ plays good competition  he gets his ### handed to him

6.  LBJ is a nice player, probably top 20 all-time, but no where near Jordan, bird, or magic

7.  LBJ has been trying to take over games, but he is not able to because he's just not that good

8.  OKC and Spurs would beat the ever living #### out of Cle this year

9.  People give a lot of merit to making the finals a bunch of times in a joke of an east conference

10.  It's a long series and things could change
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11. We're getting sizzling takes in numbered lists

 
Joe T said:
10 Things I learned after two games:

1.  I've been 100% right about the series so far

2.  If you say anything negative about a black coach some people will consider you a racist

3.  The west is very strong, just like always

4.  The east is an f'ing joke, just like always

5.  When LBJ plays good competition  he gets his ### handed to him

6.  LBJ is a nice player, probably top 20 all-time, but no where near Jordan, bird, or magic

7.  LBJ has been trying to take over games, but he is not able to because he's just not that good

8.  OKC and Spurs would beat the ever living #### out of Cle this year

9.  People give a lot of merit to making the finals a bunch of times in a joke of an east conference

10.  It's a long series and things could change
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Absolute poetry.

 
Jayrod said:
Absolute poetry.
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Nah.  #10 hedges way too much. If you're gonna go full Hot Take you can't reserve the right to change your mind. You just do it later if circumstances change and then pretend you never said the first thing.  Bayless and Stephen A are not impressed.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Nah.  #10 hedges way too much. If you're gonna go full Hot Take you can't reserve the right to change your mind. You just do it later if circumstances change and then pretend you never said the first thing.  Bayless and Stephen A are not impressed.
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Agreed.  That one would have been laughed out of the Hot Sports Takes thread.  Nowhere the near the bar set by Cappy, RHE, The Sizzler, and whoever that guy was who ordered horse racing be banned because of all the starving children those horses could feed.

 
Joe T said:
9.  People give a lot of merit to making the finals a bunch of times in a joke of an east conference
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Reminds me of the Pac-1 every year.

People get all hyped every year over whoever wins that trash conference...usually gifting them a ridiculous high seed for March Madness.

 
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