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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (3 Viewers)

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Dunno...tried to get Kawhi and Lebron together for two-way goodness...and we saw how effective Adams and Thompson were on the PnRs...

Also would like to see what Gobert could do in the middle.


PG


G. Hill


1


SG


Kawhi


5


SF


Lebron


7


PF


T. Thompson


1


C


S. Adams


1


 


 


 


PG


G. Hill


1


SG


Booker


1


SF


Kawhi


5


PF


Lebron


7


C


S. Adams


1


 


 


 


PG


Conley


2


SG


Middleton


2


SF


Kawhi


5


PF


Towns


4


C


Gobert


2

 
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4rg0o2/transcript_of_an_amazing_brian_windhorst_story/

This is pretty good.  Windhorst explaining (from TrueHoop Podcast) what may have caused OKC to move Harden and some of the CBA misfortune for them that caused it.  

Text in spoilers:

I apologise if the following is common knowledge but I've heard people talk about the Harden trade a lot (shout out to Simmons) and can't remember ever hearing this story. I was going to paraphrase what Windhorst said but the filibuster he gave was so good I decided to transcribe it. I edited what he said a bit to make it easier to follow. This story is taken from the true hoop podcast from yesterday, starting around the 34 minute mark if you’d prefer to listen to it.

Some Context:

Ethan Strauss asks the guys if the Harden trade “lit the fuse” for Kevin Durant’s decision to join Golden State and ultimately ruin OKC's roster. Windhorst says he thinks the Thunder losing a 3-1 lead in the WCF was the key factor. Someone else (Tom Haberstroh?) tries to clarify Ethan’s point by asking would the Thunder have lost that lead with Harden on the team? This sparks Windhorst to get something off his chest…

Brian Windhorst:

“So here’s the thing guys, I have to step in here, you cannot look at that trade and say either/or. The Thunder were the product of their own misjudgements but they were the product of some terrible misfortune along the way. And one of the misfortunes was in 2011 a new CBA came in with extremely penal luxury tax penalties and as part of that CBA, without Durant even asking for it, [the league] grandfathered his contract in to giving him the ‘Rose provision’. When the CBA opened (the next year) it was like “by the way, you now have a luxury tax that’s twice or three times as penal as it was before, when you were planning your team. Oh and by the way, we decided we’re giving Kevin Durant three more million dollars over every year of his contract” and the Thunder we’re like “umm…WHAT?!” And it was such a bad deal for the Thunder that the league later refunded them the money but it was too late because they had to make the decision on Harden. Now if you wanna retort and say…

Someone else on the panel interrupts with a big “wait, whaaat?” because, like me, they can’t believe this #### either

BW (cont.)

“…So as you know, there’s this thing called the ‘Rose provision’. It was called the ‘Rose provision’ but it might as well have been called the ‘Durant provision’ because he was the first person to actually get it. (It allows a player) to get extra money if you made two all NBA teams or were voted into two all-star games. Durant had signed his extension before the CBA and it was kicking in as soon as the new CBA came in. He didn’t have the opportunity to get the ‘Rose provision’ (in this contract because it didn’t exist when he was negotiating his contract). And somewhere in the lawyering…

Amin Elhassan jumps in to mention that the Rose Provision is negotiable between the player and the team from 25%-30% of the cap. However, in Durant’s case the league gave him the full 30% retrospectively without negotiation.

BW (cont.)

“They just gave it to him and it was a crazy decision and pardon my podcast French but they absolutely screwed the Thunder on it. Now, you’re gonna say “what are you complaining about? So what you have to give KD more money” but it screwed the Thunder’s planning. All of a sudden it meant that they had to account for three million dollars more per year for the next five years when they had to try and decide on Harden. And you may say to them “well you’re still an idiot because you should still pay Harden and pay the luxury tax. What’s your freaking problem, Thunder?” and the answer is they were horribly afraid of the repeater tax which they’d be in right now if they had signed Harden. So yes, if you want to frame the decision that they screwed up with Harden – yeah - but they got a terrible piece of misfortune there.”

And in case anyone wants to ask “well, why not still blame the Thunder’s cheap owners for not paying the repeater tax?”...

BW (from a little later in the pod):

“All I’m saying is, the thunder’s point of view of it is, that we’re now in year 6 of the CBA and the Thunder would have been a tax payer for 5 of those 6 years had they done the Harden deal and therefore they would not be in a position to do anything. As you know, the repeater tax even scared away Prokhorov. He fled on the repeater tax. The Miami heat fled on the repeater tax. [The league] has been trying to figure out ways to create a hard cap – well you’ve finally found it. Everybody’s afraid of that repeater tax, even guys like Micky Arison who are worth like 8/10 billion and Prokhorov, one of the richest people in the world, are afraid of the repeater tax. And that’s what OKC was afraid of and that’s what was put on their plate (by the league). They knew that because they had Durant and Westbrook and if they added Harden they’d be deep in the repeater tax by now and they still couldn’t afford them.”
 
Rookies don't count or can't play?  Do I not have enough of perimeter defenders in Bradley and Leonard along with Lebron.  You need to out score this team to win and I went with are Reddick and Heidl as my 3pt specialists. It's going to take an atypical team to beat GS and Reddick and Heidl have have a unique skill set that I think could be an asset in beating GS. 
Hield probably won't start for a team that won 30 games last year, I don't know why he would be a consideration in this format. He is going to be abused defensively as a rookie and it is very unlikely he will shoot above 40% from 3 this year. 

 
Dunno...tried to get Kawhi and Lebron together for two-way goodness...and we saw how effective Adams and Thompson were on the PnRs...

Also would like to see what Gobert could do in the middle.


PG


G. Hill


1


SG


Kawhi


5


SF


Lebron


7


PF


T. Thompson


1


C


S. Adams


1


 


 


 


PG


G. Hill


1


SG


Booker


1


SF


Kawhi


5


PF


Lebron


7


C


S. Adams


1


 


 


 


PG


Conley


2


SG


Middleton


2


SF


Kawhi


5


PF


Towns


4


C


Gobert


2
I really wanted to do a team with Lebron, Kawhi, and Gobert, but realized it was mathematically impossible and decided that I hate The Ringer.

 
Man none of these teams would have a chance. They would all get killed. The 15 dollar restriction is kind of silly when GS basically has 23 to spend. 
And yet most of those $15 squads are better than any other non-GS team in the association. This season might suck really hard.

 
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4rg0o2/transcript_of_an_amazing_brian_windhorst_story/

This is pretty good.  Windhorst explaining (from TrueHoop Podcast) what may have caused OKC to move Harden and some of the CBA misfortune for them that caused it.  

Text in spoilers:

I apologise if the following is common knowledge but I've heard people talk about the Harden trade a lot (shout out to Simmons) and can't remember ever hearing this story. I was going to paraphrase what Windhorst said but the filibuster he gave was so good I decided to transcribe it. I edited what he said a bit to make it easier to follow. This story is taken from the true hoop podcast from yesterday, starting around the 34 minute mark if you’d prefer to listen to it.

Some Context:

Ethan Strauss asks the guys if the Harden trade “lit the fuse” for Kevin Durant’s decision to join Golden State and ultimately ruin OKC's roster. Windhorst says he thinks the Thunder losing a 3-1 lead in the WCF was the key factor. Someone else (Tom Haberstroh?) tries to clarify Ethan’s point by asking would the Thunder have lost that lead with Harden on the team? This sparks Windhorst to get something off his chest…

Brian Windhorst:

“So here’s the thing guys, I have to step in here, you cannot look at that trade and say either/or. The Thunder were the product of their own misjudgements but they were the product of some terrible misfortune along the way. And one of the misfortunes was in 2011 a new CBA came in with extremely penal luxury tax penalties and as part of that CBA, without Durant even asking for it, [the league] grandfathered his contract in to giving him the ‘Rose provision’. When the CBA opened (the next year) it was like “by the way, you now have a luxury tax that’s twice or three times as penal as it was before, when you were planning your team. Oh and by the way, we decided we’re giving Kevin Durant three more million dollars over every year of his contract” and the Thunder we’re like “umm…WHAT?!” And it was such a bad deal for the Thunder that the league later refunded them the money but it was too late because they had to make the decision on Harden. Now if you wanna retort and say…

Someone else on the panel interrupts with a big “wait, whaaat?” because, like me, they can’t believe this #### either

BW (cont.)

“…So as you know, there’s this thing called the ‘Rose provision’. It was called the ‘Rose provision’ but it might as well have been called the ‘Durant provision’ because he was the first person to actually get it. (It allows a player) to get extra money if you made two all NBA teams or were voted into two all-star games. Durant had signed his extension before the CBA and it was kicking in as soon as the new CBA came in. He didn’t have the opportunity to get the ‘Rose provision’ (in this contract because it didn’t exist when he was negotiating his contract). And somewhere in the lawyering…

Amin Elhassan jumps in to mention that the Rose Provision is negotiable between the player and the team from 25%-30% of the cap. However, in Durant’s case the league gave him the full 30% retrospectively without negotiation.

BW (cont.)

“They just gave it to him and it was a crazy decision and pardon my podcast French but they absolutely screwed the Thunder on it. Now, you’re gonna say “what are you complaining about? So what you have to give KD more money” but it screwed the Thunder’s planning. All of a sudden it meant that they had to account for three million dollars more per year for the next five years when they had to try and decide on Harden. And you may say to them “well you’re still an idiot because you should still pay Harden and pay the luxury tax. What’s your freaking problem, Thunder?” and the answer is they were horribly afraid of the repeater tax which they’d be in right now if they had signed Harden. So yes, if you want to frame the decision that they screwed up with Harden – yeah - but they got a terrible piece of misfortune there.”

And in case anyone wants to ask “well, why not still blame the Thunder’s cheap owners for not paying the repeater tax?”...

BW (from a little later in the pod):

“All I’m saying is, the thunder’s point of view of it is, that we’re now in year 6 of the CBA and the Thunder would have been a tax payer for 5 of those 6 years had they done the Harden deal and therefore they would not be in a position to do anything. As you know, the repeater tax even scared away Prokhorov. He fled on the repeater tax. The Miami heat fled on the repeater tax. [The league] has been trying to figure out ways to create a hard cap – well you’ve finally found it. Everybody’s afraid of that repeater tax, even guys like Micky Arison who are worth like 8/10 billion and Prokhorov, one of the richest people in the world, are afraid of the repeater tax. And that’s what OKC was afraid of and that’s what was put on their plate (by the league). They knew that because they had Durant and Westbrook and if they added Harden they’d be deep in the repeater tax by now and they still couldn’t afford them.”
They still made that trade a year early given the situation they were in, maybe even a year and a half. If all they were avoiding was the repeater tax, they had 2-2.5 years to figure things out. 

 
They still made that trade a year early given the situation they were in, maybe even a year and a half. If all they were avoiding was the repeater tax, they had 2-2.5 years to figure things out. 
I agree, but it at least gives a good glimpse into the panic that occurred.

 
C - Hassan Whiteside - $4PF - Anthony Davis - $5SF - Kristaps Porzingas - $2SG - Bradley Beal - $2PG - Mike Conley - $2

 
I think that Boston w/ Westbrook goes to the top of the East.  Russ, Bradley, Crowder, Olynk, Horford seems a well-rounded group.

 
Love how Conley is a 2 in that exercise.  
I was going off of this list:

$7 Player
LeBron James

$5 Players
LaMarcus Aldridge
DeMarcus Cousins
Anthony Davis
Blake Griffin
James Harden
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook

$4 Players
Carmelo Anthony
Jimmy Butler
DeMar DeRozan
Andre Drummond
Paul George
Kyrie Irving
Damian Lillard
Paul Millsap
Karl-Anthony Towns
John Wall
Hassan Whiteside

$3 Players
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Eric Bledsoe
Chris Bosh
Derrick Favors
Marc Gasol
Al Horford
Dwight Howard
Serge Ibaka
DeAndre Jordan
Kevin Love
Kyle Lowry
Dirk Nowitzki
Isaiah Thomas
Dwyane Wade
Andrew Wiggins

$2 Players
Bradley Beal
Mike Conley
Tyreke Evans
Kenneth Faried
Pau Gasol
Rudy Gobert
Gordon Hayward
Brook Lopez
C.J. McCollum
Khris Middleton
Chandler Parsons
Kristaps Porzingis
Zach Randolph
Jonas Valanciunas
Nikola Vucevic
Kemba Walker

$1 Players
Everyone else
 
And yet most of those $15 squads are better than any other non-GS team in the association. This season might suck really hard.
Lebron 7

kyrie 4

love 3

tristan 1

sg 1 

parker 1

Green 1 

Leonard 5

gasol 2 

aldridge 5

probably the only two options :shrug:  

 
I agree but more than making me sympathetic to their situation it shows me how incompetent they were. 
It's not just that...they did in fact offer Harden a four year 55.5 million dollar contract which was only 4.5 million short of his max deal.  

They also could have amnestied Perkins, but felt he was important.  

 
#### the Thunder. Cheap dumb bastards got what they deserved. I don't agree with Simmons on much, but I do like his take of if you're an owner and you aren't going to spend to win a title why even do this? 

 
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#### the Thunder. Cheap dumb bastards got what they deserved. I don't agree with Simmons on much, but I do like his take of if you're an owner and you aren't going to spend to win a title why even do this? 
To make money and for the tax write-off...duh.

 
LMAO at you included no brains/no hustle Whiteside.
Never said no hustle. But yeah no brains is still accurate. He can block and rebound never said he could not.

Guy can ball. Just hope we don't regret 23MM a year for a guy who played at the YMCA and Lebanon 2 years ago. A lot of red flags for that kind of coin.

 
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If he goes back to Miami, I suspect it will be because they offer him something like 3/66. If that happens, Miami is going to be absolutely awful in that 3rd year. They'll be capped out with a 37 year old Wade, 35 year old Bosh, 33 year old Dragic, and 30 year old Whiteside. Unless Winslow develops to a top 10 player, that team is winning 25 games.
And no draft picks until about 2020.

 
Never said no hustle. But yeah no brains is still accurate. He can block and rebound never said he could not.

Guy can ball. Just hope we don't regret 23MM a year for a guy who played at the YMCA and Lebanon 2 years ago. A lot of red flags for that kind of coin.
IMO, in this exercise at center you need someone who can do some combination of switching out on the perimeter and scoring enough to put pressure on GS's interior. Whiteside can't do either. 

 
IMO, in this exercise at center you need someone who can do some combination of switching out on the perimeter and scoring enough to put pressure on GS's interior. Whiteside can't do either. 
True. He would be stuck inside the paint pretty much and his scoring is not great. But his blocking and rebounding is huge. It is a sacrifice at one spot so we can stop penetration, rebound a ton to get on the break and relegate GS to a pure jump shooting team which when you go cold.....well we saw what happened. No easy buckets with Whiteside manning the middle.

 
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True. He would be stuck inside the paint pretty much and his scoring is not great. But his blocking and rebounding is huge. It is a sacrifice at one spot so we can stop penetration, rebound a ton to get on the break and relegate GS to a pure jump shooting team which when you go cold.....well we saw what happened.
If he doesn't leave the paint, you get a steady stream of uncontested Green/Durant threes. Green almost singlehandedly won game 7 himself that way, and CLE didn't even concede those as much as you would have to with Whiteside. 

 
True. He would be stuck inside the paint pretty much and his scoring is not great. But his blocking and rebounding is huge. It is a sacrifice at one spot so we can stop penetration, rebound a ton to get on the break and relegate GS to a pure jump shooting team which when you go cold.....well we saw what happened. No easy buckets with Whiteside manning the middle.
They went cold because Cleveland was switching everything with Thompson and leaving Barnes open. Good luck having to guard a Green-Curry pick and roll with Whiteside staying back as Curry pulls up for numerous uncontested threes.

 
Lebron 7

kyrie 4

love 3

tristan 1

sg 1 

parker 1

Green 1 

Leonard 5

gasol 2 

aldridge 5

probably the only two options :shrug:  
That first one is 16 unfortunately.  You'll have to be proactive and "trade" Love for a $2 and roll out Lebron, Kyrie, Hayward (or Gobert), Tristan, JR Swish.

 
this just in ".... hearing reports that Russell Westbrook ran Kevin Durant out of town.  Durant reportedly tired of Westbrook dominating the ball."

apparently the guy reporting it is up on the Jim Rome Show in a few minutes

 
this just in ".... hearing reports that Russell Westbrook ran Kevin Durant out of town.  Durant reportedly tired of Westbrook dominating the ball."

apparently the guy reporting it is up on the Jim Rome Show in a few minutes
Howard Beck reported that was a contributing factor day or two ago, and he's usually pretty solid. 

 
Jon Leaur got 4/42.  Holy smokes.  That guy is awful. 
Last season Leuer had a 16.2 PER, shot 38 percent on 3s, and averaged 10.7 rebounds per 36. Suns were 6 points better with him on the court than off it.

Plenty of worse deals than that in free agency.

 
Funny money this off-season...pure funny money. It will be worse next off-season.
I really dont think it will. Teams are going to be closer to the cap going into next off-season than they were this off-season. They money will be bigger for legit starters but it will be less for guys that are at the end of the rotation.

 
Fun little video/charts here:  what if there was no three point line?
 

Obviously it oversimplifies things a bit, offensive strategy would change dramatically without it as would time allocated to practicing shooting from various spots on the floor, but it's a pretty fun exercise nevertheless.  I've always wondered how much it changes.  Biggest change- Wolves make the playoffs as a 36 win team in the West!

 
Yesterday Wade was canceling meetings, today I am reading he will meet with 3 different teams.

He does this where he meets with other teams and then in the end always comes back to Miami. $20M with no state taxes, you won 3 rings there, Dade County is Wade County but I guess teams fall for his willingness to leave this place every time he wants to try and squeeze the Heat a little more. 

Heat have little leverage here as well, nobody they would sign at this point could remotely replace what Wade does for this team. It was interesting that he made it thru most of the season with little to no injuries, played in 70+ I believe. 

Who blinks first here?

 
Has Minnesota done anything in free agency? They have such a nice young little stable of players, 1-2 quality vets would really bolster that team. If you are a top20 NBA player, the TWolves have got to be on your radar for places you could win. I know they still are a long way from championship level but they have quality talent and so young. 

 
Has Minnesota done anything in free agency? They have such a nice young little stable of players, 1-2 quality vets would really bolster that team. If you are a top20 NBA player, the TWolves have got to be on your radar for places you could win. I know they still are a long way from championship level but they have quality talent and so young. 
They got Cole Aldrich on a pretty solid deal. Not sure if they've done anything past that, don't think they really need to right now.

 
cripes if you want to beat the warriors you just send beverly out there but before he goes you tell him warrior confront you on street he is enemy mercy is for the weak sweep the leg do you have a problem with that and then he will shout no sensay and bam broken knees for kd and curry and you better believe it old nutkicker green is gettin a broken leg and then doubel bam all of the sudden there aint no way the dubs are winning the all valley championship take that just in time to save the day to the castle bank far away mr bromagis 

 
They got Cole Aldrich on a pretty solid deal. Not sure if they've done anything past that, don't think they really need to right now.
Yep.  Just Cole.  A lot more options available next year and they lost out on Pau to the Spurs (can't blame Pau there).  Fine with adding another bench piece or two and standing at this point.  Still think Rubio may be moved eventually. 

 
PG: Patrick Beverley $1

SG: Avery Bradley $1

SF: Kawhi Leonard $5

PF: Anteaternintendo $3

C: Anthony Davis $5

 
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