2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (1 Viewer)

[GroveDiesel]

The more I think about it, the more a #### move this was by PG. If he says that he has decided to fully test free agency at the end of 2018, it hurts his trade value a bit, but doesn't kill it.

But leaking that he has decided not to return to the Pacers and wants to go to the Lakers absolutely destroys his trade value. 

About the only worse way to handle it would have been to have a tv special after the season to announce that he was leaving them.

If he's not traded, it's going to be pretty miserable as the tens of fans at the stadium boo him constantly.

 

[sjslacker]

The more I think about it, the more a #### move this was by PG. If he says that he has decided to fully test free agency at the end of 2018, it hurts his trade value a bit, but doesn't kill it.

But leaking that he has decided not to return to the Pacers and wants to go to the Lakers absolutely destroys his trade value. 

About the only worse way to handle it would have been to have a tv special after the season to announce that he was leaving them.

If he's not traded, it's going to be pretty miserable as the tens of fans at the stadium boo him constantly.

What if that was his intention?  To tank his trade value so he can either go to a good situation for 1 year and or the Lakers can trade for him without giving up a ransom?

 

[need2know]

The more I think about it, the more a #### move this was by PG. If he says that he has decided to fully test free agency at the end of 2018, it hurts his trade value a bit, but doesn't kill it.

But leaking that he has decided not to return to the Pacers and wants to go to the Lakers absolutely destroys his trade value. 

About the only worse way to handle it would have been to have a tv special after the season to announce that he was leaving them.

If he's not traded, it's going to be pretty miserable as the tens of fans at the stadium boo him constantly.

Oh he's gone.  Heard a report earlier pacers reached out to Cavs to discuss a deal.  They are going to deal him to somebody

 

[SWC]

some mock drafts have the bangos taking harry giles which has me asking hey why draft a short stack like that we only want guys that are at least 7 2 and who can dunk from the three point line bam take that to the 6 11 only if she is 5 3 bank brohans

 

[TobiasFunke]

What if that was his intention?  To tank his trade value so he can either go to a good situation for 1 year and or the Lakers can trade for him without giving up a ransom?

Then that makes Grove right that it was a #### move that screwed over the organization and the fans that have loved him for years for a marginal benefit to him at best? 

It's not like a rebuilding team is gonna trade for him on the off chance that he would reup with them for the rebuild.  He's going to a team that can maximize the value of a potential one year rental anyway. And that team's gonna get feelers out to see what kind of chance they have at an extension before they trade for him, so they won't get blindsided.

It's George's right to leave, but it's also fan's right to hate him for doing it in a way that causes damage to the franchise and the fans for a marginal at best return for him personally.

 

[Sammy3469]

Then that makes Grove right that it was a #### move that screwed over the organization and the fans that have loved him for years for a marginal benefit to him at best? 

It's not like a rebuilding team is gonna trade for him on the off chance that he would reup with them for the rebuild.  He's going to a team that can maximize the value of a potential one year rental anyway. And that team's gonna get feelers out to see what kind of chance they have at an extension before they trade for him, so they won't get blindsided.

It's George's right to leave, but it's also fan's right to hate him for doing it in a way that causes damage to the franchise and the fans for a marginal at best return for him personally.

Hey...at least now the Pacers will get something for him...better than him leaving next year for nothing.  

 

[sjslacker]

Would it be better or worse for the franchise if PG never said anything but left as a free agent next year?

ETA Sammy beat me to it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Hey...at least now the Pacers will get something for him...better than him leaving next year for nothing.  

I'm cool with telling your team you plan to leave, that's actually a nice gesture I think.  It's the part where you publicly announce that your intentions to go to a specific location (and thus limit your trade value) that I don't like.

People who defend players from criticism for switching teams like to compare NBA player movement to "the real world" where people are free to move from job to job.  I think that logic is off for a couple reasons, but if people are gonna employ that logic you have to employ it consistently. By all means follow your heart, but if your employer treated you decently but you did something to harm their interests on the way out the door you'd get crucified for it.

 

[Sammy3469]

I'm cool with telling your team you plan to leave, that's actually a nice gesture I think.  It's the part where you publicly announce that your intentions to go to a specific location (and thus limit your trade value) that I don't like.

People who defend players from criticism for switching teams like to compare NBA player movement to "the real world" where people are free to move from job to job.  I think that logic is off for a couple reasons, but if people are gonna employ that logic you have to employ it consistently. By all means follow your heart, but if your employer treated you decently but you did something to harm their interests on the way out the door you'd get crucified for it.

So yell at him, but is it really any different than Phil badmouthing Melo?

 

[TobiasFunke]

So yell at him, but is it really any different than Phil badmouthing Melo?

Not sure I follow here.  One is someone badmouthing an employee (stupid for many reasons). The other is a person harming the interests of an employer and by extension his fans/customers (not really stupid, just kinda less than great).  I don't approve of either but I'm not sure how they're similar.

 

[Kev4029]

I'm cool with telling your team you plan to leave, that's actually a nice gesture I think.  It's the part where you publicly announce that your intentions to go to a specific location (and thus limit your trade value) that I don't like.

People who defend players from criticism for switching teams like to compare NBA player movement to "the real world" where people are free to move from job to job.  I think that logic is off for a couple reasons, but if people are gonna employ that logic you have to employ it consistently. By all means follow your heart, but if your employer treated you decently but you did something to harm their interests on the way out the door you'd get crucified for it.

This is nearly exactly what Melo did when he left the Nuggets, at a similar time during the offseason. It didn't kill the Nuggets.

If I were the Pacers, I would much rather PG do what he did, then get ghosted like the Cavs did with Lebron.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is nearly exactly what Melo did when he left the Nuggets, at a similar time during the offseason. It didn't kill the Nuggets.

If I were the Pacers, I would much rather PG do what he did, then get ghosted like the Cavs did with Lebron.

Yeah I guess, and he was criticized for that too. But (1) the Nuggets got lucky that the Knicks gave up such a huge package to get him, and (2) Melo was shopped to the Nets too, which created a competitive marketplace. It's my understanding that George is saying he wants go to the Lakers, not to LA (which would bring the Clippers into the mix).

And like I said, I like the player informing the team ahead of time, I think it's a nice gesture. It's the public announcement of his presumed next destination I dislike because it depresses his trade value. You can say he wanted to play for a contender for this year, but it's not like Orlando or Phoenix or someone like that is gonna trade away assets for a season of George leading them to the 7 or 8 seed and the almost nonexistent hope that he'd reup, so what difference does that really make?

 

[Sammy3469]

Not sure I follow here.  One is someone badmouthing an employee (stupid for many reasons). The other is a person harming the interests of an employer and by extension his fans/customers (not really stupid, just kinda less than great).  I don't approve of either but I'm not sure how they're similar.

Except PG doesn't directly have an interest in promoting the interests of his employer.  I don't think he owes them anything which is the beauty of having a strong union and a guaranteed contract.  I'm just sort of past the point where I think any of these guys owe anything (besides giving 100% and listening to the coach, etc.) to rich billionaires.  

 

[Sammy3469]

Yeah I guess, and he was criticized for that too. But (1) the Nuggets got lucky that the Knicks gave up such a huge package to get him, and (2) Melo was shopped to the Nets too, which created a competitive marketplace. It's my understanding that George is saying he wants go to the Lakers, not to LA (which would bring the Clippers into the mix).

Both the Lakers and Cavs want him.  Lakers sort of have to beat a Love package, so there is a market.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The more I think about it, the more a #### move this was by PG. If he says that he has decided to fully test free agency at the end of 2018, it hurts his trade value a bit, but doesn't kill it.

But leaking that he has decided not to return to the Pacers and wants to go to the Lakers absolutely destroys his trade value. 

About the only worse way to handle it would have been to have a tv special after the season to announce that he was leaving them.

If he's not traded, it's going to be pretty miserable as the tens of fans at the stadium boo him constantly.

It has been widely known in NBA circles that he wasn't returning to the Pacers, not sure it moves the needle much on his trade value. 

 

[On The Rocks]

OK so I get that Anthony Davis to the Celtics is a ENORMOUS stretch.  But let's say you run the Pelicans and Ainge was on the line asking what's it going to take?  You're really going to just shake your head and hang up?  I think you have to at least take a look at all of those assets and review their roster and see what's there.

 

[modogg]

Why are people posting about the stinky pacers or celtics? 

Back to the question from last thread, do the Sixers sweep the warriors in the finals or does it take 5-6 games?  

 

[msudaisy26]

OK so I get that Anthony Davis to the Celtics is a ENORMOUS stretch.  But let's say you run the Pelicans and Ainge was on the line asking what's it going to take?  You're really going to just shake your head and hang up?  I think you have to at least take a look at all of those assets and review their roster and see what's there.

No you don't hang up, but if it is happening right. I want pick 3, Nets pick next year, whichever pick the 76ers end up sending, plus 2 or 3 young players of my choice, so Brown, Smart,  Crowder or any of the foreign players they have stashed away. Plus all picks are not protected in any way. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Except PG doesn't directly have an interest in promoting the interests of his employer.  I don't think he owes them anything which is the beauty of having a strong union and a guaranteed contract.  I'm just sort of past the point where I think any of these guys owe anything (besides giving 100% and listening to the coach, etc.) to rich billionaires.  

I agree, I don't think he owes them something.  I'm defending Pacers' fans right to dislike George for announcing his intention to join the Lakers publicly in a way that likely depresses his trade value, not suggesting a rule change or expressing any sympathy for whichever dooshbag billionaire owns the team.

 

[modogg]

No you don't hang up, but if it is happening right. I want pick 3, Nets pick next year, whichever pick the 76ers end up sending, plus 2 or 3 young players of my choice, so Brown, Smart,  Crowder or any of the foreign players they have stashed away. Plus all picks are not protected in any way. 

It isn't Crazy with all of the future assets celtics have now. I would love to hear what Boogie would say if Davis left like that. 

 

[On The Rocks]

No you don't hang up, but if it is happening right. I want pick 3, Nets pick next year, whichever pick the 76ers end up sending, plus 2 or 3 young players of my choice, so Brown, Smart,  Crowder or any of the foreign players they have stashed away. Plus all picks are not protected in any way. 

I'd give you the #3 this year, the Nets '18 pick, and Smart and Crowder and then one of the Euro guys.  I'd do that in a second.

That still gives the option to pick up Hayward, and still have a boat load of 1st picks in the future.

 

[msudaisy26]

I forget the exact rules, but can't teams give permission to negotiate a contract extension if they agree on a deal? If so this doesn't kill George's value, he could easily change his mind if he talks to the Celtics or whoever and they convince him that they are building around him and going to compete soon. 

 

[need2know]

Why should George stay with the pacers?  What moves have they made that would make him even consider staying there? He can't win there.  I won't hate on him because he wants to move to a better situation in his prime.

 

[Kev4029]

Both the Lakers and Cavs want him.  Lakers sort of have to beat a Love package, so there is a market.

I agree with this. I'll also add that Melo specifically said he wanted to go to the Knicks. The Nets were just star hungry and were willing to gamble that he would stay with them if they were able to trade for him. Very similar situation to PG and the Pacers.

I don't think that the Pacers will want Love, but there are plenty of teams to drag into the trade that would love to have Love and have assets that the Pacers would like.

If I'm the Lakers, I think I sit this one out and hope he still comes to LA a year from now.

 

[msudaisy26]

Why should George stay with the pacers?  What moves have they made that would make him even consider staying there? He can't win there.  I won't hate on him because he wants to move to a better situation in his prime.

They have tried, they have just failed. 

 

[Sammy3469]

I'd give you the #3 this year, the Nets '18 pick, and Smart and Crowder and then one of the Euro guys.  I'd do that in a second.

That's not enough salary-wise.

Assuming this would happen at the trade deadline and the Cs sign Hayward which would mean letting Jerebko, Zeller, Johnson, and Olynyk go, it would have to be Bradley, Crowder, and whoever they pick Thursday to make the money work.  If the Cs make max room to sign Hayward, their options in matching Davis's contract become much more limited.  I'd also want the Nets '18 pick, the Memphis pick, and whatever pick the Sixers end up sending them.  

 

[need2know]

I agree with this. I'll also add that Melo specifically said he wanted to go to the Knicks. The Nets were just star hungry and were willing to gamble that he would stay with them if they were able to trade for him. Very similar situation to PG and the Pacers.

I don't think that the Pacers will want Love, but there are plenty of teams to drag into the trade that would love to have Love and have assets that the Pacers would like.

If I'm the Lakers, I think I sit this one out and hope he still comes to LA a year from now.

Agree.  If he went to the Cavs, I bet he wouldn't be there long

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Hey...at least now the Pacers will get something for him...better than him leaving next year for nothing.  

He could have told them privately.

 

[Sammy3469]

He could have told them privately.

There's nothing private in today's NBA...the second the Pacers start asking the Cavs or Lakers, some agent somewhere leaks it to Woj.

 

[On The Rocks]

He could have told them privately.

Now I think they need to hold on to him until the trade deadline for the most value.

 

[Kev4029]

He could have told them privately.

Who's to say that he didn't? Maybe he let them know sometime in the last 6 or 8 months and they were unresponsive.

 

[TobiasFunke]

They have tried, they have just failed. 

Yup.  They were a 56 win #1 seed just a couple seasons ago. It fell apart because two of the key starters turned out to be head cases and David West got old and left to chase a ring. And I thought they did a decent job rebuilding after that, I was really intrigued by their roster this year but it just didn't come together. Can't really fault them too much.  Don't really fault George either, other than the public announcement that he favors only one team. Just one of those things

 

[scoobus]

So is the Boston-Philly trade official? Meaning when Fultz goes first, will he be wearing a Celtics hat or a 76ers hat? It always looks so stupid when everyone knows a trade happened but the guy has to wear the hat of the team he isn't going to.

 

[msudaisy26]

I'd give you the #3 this year, the Nets '18 pick, and Smart and Crowder and then one of the Euro guys.  I'd do that in a second.

That still gives the option to pick up Hayward, and still have a boat load of 1st picks in the future.

I would hang up if that is the offer. I want more picks, I want the ability to find the next superstar. 

 

[Bobcat10]

Now I think they need to hold on to him until the trade deadline for the most value.

Not sure that would be the case at all.

 

[rodg12]

Yup.  They were a 56 win #1 seed just a couple seasons ago. It fell apart because two of the key starters turned out to be head cases and David West got old and left to chase a ring. And I thought they did a decent job rebuilding after that, I was really intrigued by their roster this year but it just didn't come together. Can't really fault them too much.  Don't really fault George either, other than the public announcement that he favors only one team. Just one of those things

The Monta Ellis deal was a bad one.  Not necessarily for the money, but definitely for the fit.  I also think they lost on Hill for Teague.  Hill was a better fit with George.

They did hit a HR with Myles Turner it's looking like and I liked the move for Thad Young.

 

[wikkidpissah]

My guess is that Trader Danny's acquisition of a high '18-19 pick has to do with him already trying to get The Brow but being told it was presently impossible because the BigDumbBirds want to give the Twin Towers a chance from the beginning of the season.

Since they'll likely be losing their only other good player (Jrue) and are unlikely to sign anyone significant, the TT experiment will be in failure mode by trade deadline, with them staring at losing Boogie for good next summer. It will then be the Celtics who can offer them either the Philly pick for a Boogie rental to make a run @ the Cavs, or the Everything Package for The Brow so they can either give Bama boy Boogie his $40per and surround him with cheap-but-real talent or start all over without either of em.

Still dont get or like the Philly trade. I posted against it when i thought it was 3 #1s. You just dont give a division rival exactly what they want/need (even if youve made up your mind, as Ainge would have had to, that he's not the kid everyone thinks) AND the taunting rights that goes with trading a 1.01 without making it sting.

This puts EVERYTHING that gave Trader Danny his rep on the line. He drafted a PG with no shot or move in Maaaacus Smaaaat with his first lottery pick of the Stevens era; drafted a good kid he could have gotten with his 2nd firster (Rozier, leaving Portis on the table and taking a kid who's already gone with that 2nd #1); then made a LOT of trade noise about the first Jersey pick at the next trade deadline with no result; took Jaylen "Trumphands" Brown with the first Jersey pick when what teams would have given to use the pick for Kris Dunn had to be more valuable and who i got being a miserable failure (there goes MY rep); made even more trade noise - when they actually stood to be making playoff use of a Butler/George - with the 2nd Jersey pick, with same result; now, not even making the Jersey pick. Head on block, blade a-rising, Danny Boy. Now that he wont be drafting a ready-made 2nd offensive option this week, he damn well have Hayward in his pocket and an awesome plan for the future or he wont be able to go to Chipotle without everyone telling him where he can stuff his burrito.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

The Monta Ellis deal was a bad one.  Not necessarily for the money, but definitely for the fit.  I also think they lost on Hill for Teague.  Hill was a better fit with George.

They did hit a HR with Myles Turner it's looking like and I liked the move for Thad Young.

As a lifelong Pacers fan--I definitely have some opinions on them on this past season.  The talent pool this team had last year--with Teague, Thaddeus, George, Turner mixed in with guys like Monta, CJ Miles, Al Jeff was solid.  However, their biggest failure was in abandoning their identity as a physical defensive team and going for a more run and gun style game.  The physical/defensive oriented style of game they had was working as George and the Pacers battled the kings of the East a few times.  Had they maintained that same playing style while adding talent--they could have been soo much more.  I believe the Pacers did themselves in when they did nothing at last seasons trade deadline.  They should have either traded George--or made moves to show him that they plan on doing what it takes to compete at the highest level.   They did nothing--and now they probably have to let George go for pennies on the dollar are it's exposed that he's likely nothing more than a one year rental to most teams.   This past season was mismanaged by the Pacers in so many ways--and I think it will set them back many years.  I think they just need to rip the band-aid off as quickly as possible and start the rebuilding process as soon as they can.   They made the mistake of waiting too long last season and I hope they don't do the same thing again this year.  

 

[Long Ball Larry]

So is the Boston-Philly trade official? Meaning when Fultz goes first, will he be wearing a Celtics hat or a 76ers hat? It always looks so stupid when everyone knows a trade happened but the guy has to wear the hat of the team he isn't going to.

As of now, I think that the answer to the first question is no.  However, from the latest that I have read and heard, it will most likely be finalized before the draft and the Sixers will officially have the number 1 pick before the draft starts.

 

[SayWhat?]

I'll reserve judgement on Ainge for dealing the #1 until I see what he ultimately nets.  But at face value I don't at all like the Celts passing on Fultz here.  

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I would hang up if that is the offer. I want more picks, I want the ability to find the next superstar. 

I agree definitely not enough (even without considering the salary issues) for Tom "win-now" Benson and his proxy Demps.

 

[Boston]

I'll reserve judgement on Ainge for dealing the #1 until I see what he ultimately nets.  But at face value I don't at all like the Celts passing on Fultz here.  

I don't have an issue with that...if they scouted him and are not totally sold on him (or simply like someone else better) them I trust Ainge...if I have any issue it is the protections on the pick...would like to see it be unprotected...why give Philly a chance to get the #1...

 

[Tau837]

I'm cool with telling your team you plan to leave, that's actually a nice gesture I think.  It's the part where you publicly announce that your intentions to go to a specific location (and thus limit your trade value) that I don't like.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Given his impending free agent status, any team that would trade for George with intent to keep him longer than one year would talk to him and his agent first. So either they would find out what everyone now knows, or he would lie to them, and thus screw over a different fan base.

His intentions would have come out before any trade, so what he did will ultimately have no effect on his trade value. Pacers fans can hate him for not wanting to stay with their team, not unlike how Thunder fans feel about Durant and Cleveland fans used to feel about Lebron. But that is different than what you are suggesting here.

 

[On The Rocks]

I would hang up if that is the offer. I want more picks, I want the ability to find the next superstar. 

I'd hang up too, but that's what you offered in your post.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I'd hang up too, but that's what you offered in your post.

not true, she had one other first-rounder plus Brown.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Given his impending free agent status, any team that would trade for George with intent to keep him longer than one year would talk to him and his agent first. So either they would find out what everyone now knows, or he would lie to them, and thus screw over a different fan base.

His intentions would have come out before any trade, so what he did will ultimately have no effect on his trade value. Pacers fans can hate him for not wanting to stay with their team, not unlike how Thunder fans feel about Durant and Cleveland fans used to feel about Lebron. But that is different than what you are suggesting here.

I have absolutely no problem with this. Pacers fans have embraced and supported George for seven years. They've screamed themselves silly when he gets introduced before games and when he makes great plays. They've bought countless jerseys and t shirts and sneakers. They signed a "get well soon" banner for him when he broke his leg. There's tens of thousands of little kids in the area who consider George their hero. If someone's gonna get burned by free agency decisionmaking- and someone always is- I'd much rather it be the fans of an already contending team who get George on a one year rental because their front office decided to roll the dice that they could keep the guy rather than those people, and I would hope George will feel similarly.

To clarify again- I have no problem with players leaving one team for another. But if you're going to do it, I prefer when players do it in a way that inflicts the least amount of damage on the sort of fans I described above as possible. That was the root of the criticism of how LeBron handled The Decision, yes?  I see this as similar.

And I don't really have that big a problem with George here either.  Better to tell them now so they can get something back in a trade (or try to convince you to stay).  My only issue is doing it in a way that eliminates the market for a trade and thus harms your current team.

 

[GroveDiesel]

The Monta Ellis deal was a bad one.  Not necessarily for the money, but definitely for the fit.  I also think they lost on Hill for Teague.  Hill was a better fit with George.

They did hit a HR with Myles Turner it's looking like and I liked the move for Thad Young.

Man, I guess I'm in the minority, but everytime I see Turner get talked about as a future stud I just don't see it. Seems like he's one of those guys that gets talked about as an exciting young player enough that everyone just does it even when the guy hasn't really shown a lot or even much improvement. Next thing you know the guy is a 27 year old mediocre player making way more money than he has earned.

 

[SayWhat?]

I don't have an issue with that...if they scouted him and are not totally sold on him (or simply like someone else better) them I trust Ainge...if I have any issue it is the protections on the pick...would like to see it be unprotected...why give Philly a chance to get the #1...

Agree on the pick protection.  I guess my point about not liking this deal of the #1 for #3 plus Lakers/Kings 1st is that I do think there's a sizable drop from Fultz to Jackson (or anyone other than Ball at #3).  Fultz's game feels tailor made for today's NBA.  I believe he's the type of player with potential to be held in the same regard as the elite of the elite.  You build around guys like that.  I don't see the same upside for Jackson.  Might the extra pick help the C's land someone like Butler? Sure, which is why I said I'd reserve judgement until all is said and done.  But at face value if Ainge prefers anyone in this draft to Fultz I believe he's making a decent sized to massive mistake.

 

[msudaisy26]

I'd hang up too, but that's what you offered in your post.

No it isn't, it is missing an extra pick and left off Brown. 

 

[Fariq]

If there was a separate sasquatch forum would there still be a big thread about sasquatches in this forum?