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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (3 Viewers)

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SayWhat? said:
Agree on the pick protection.  I guess my point about not liking this deal of the #1 for #3 plus Lakers/Kings 1st is that I do think there's a sizable drop from Fultz to Jackson (or anyone other than Ball at #3).  Fultz's game feels tailor made for today's NBA.  I believe he's the type of player with potential to be held in the same regard as the elite of the elite.  You build around guys like that.  I don't see the same upside for Jackson.  Might the extra pick help the C's land someone like Butler? Sure, which is why I said I'd reserve judgement until all is said and done.  But at face value if Ainge prefers anyone in this draft to Fultz I believe he's making a decent sized to massive mistake.
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No question he has put his neck out there...not only is he passing on him he sent him to a team within the division...if the kid turns into a top 10 player he will be reminded of it for a real long time...right now I just trust Ainge...this is the second time he has built the C's into a contender and until I see him really f up (and he has not been flawless) I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt...I just don't see him passing on Fultz if he was sold on him...or did not have a plan in place that was better...he has done an incredible job in this rebuild and I think the toughest part is we all want it go even faster then it is...

 
thecatch said:
The 2019 pick the Celtics might get is pseudo top 1 protected - the Celtics get the better of the Sixers or Kings picks, unless either of those picks is number 1 overall (in which case the C's get the lower pick). Nice move for the Sixers. 
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This is my beef with the deal...if in-fact Magic and the Lakers are hot for Fultz I don't see why the Celtics are giving any protection on this pick let alone two types...

 
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Boston said:
No question he has put his neck out there...not only is he passing on him he sent him to a team within the division...if the kid turns into a top 10 player he will be reminded of it for a real long time...right now I just trust Ainge...this is the second time he has built the C's into a contender and until I see him really f up (and he has not been flawless) I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt...I just don't see him passing on Fultz if he was sold on him...or did not have a plan in place that was better...he has done an incredible job in this rebuild and I think the toughest part is we all want it go even faster then it is...
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"Contender" is a really generous description for Boston right now.  

 
thecatch said:
The 2019 pick the Celtics might get is pseudo top 1 protected - the Celtics get the better of the Sixers or Kings picks, unless either of those picks is number 1 overall (in which case the C's get the lower pick). Nice move for the Sixers. 
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Ballsy by Ainge, I'll give him that.  To get equal value, he's basically betting the Kings will be bad but not the worst team in 2019.  I don't quite understand why he gave up the true upside there.  

 
Sammy3469 said:
Ballsy by Ainge, I'll give him that.  To get equal value, he's basically betting the Kings will be bad but not the worst team in 2019.  I don't quite understand why he gave up the true upside there.  
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There are still huge question marks for the Sixers - if they are still a lottery team in 2019, he's getting their chances at winning the 2-3 spots, and protecting against the (exceedingly unlikely) possibility that the Kings improve faster than expected. 

 
tjnc09 said:
"Contender" is a really generous description for Boston right now.  
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Ok...why don't we just call them the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference that went to the Conference Finals and has the third  pick in the this draft, two more lottery picks in the next two years and cap space...they just don't happen to be Golden a state and Clevelsnd so we won't call them a contender...

 
thecatch said:
There are still huge question marks for the Sixers - if they are still a lottery team in 2019, he's getting their chances at winning the 2-3 spots, and protecting against the (exceedingly unlikely) possibility that the Kings improve faster than expected. 
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If my math's right, (notwithstanding the "star factor"...ie the #1 pick has a much larger chance of being a star than 3), all things being equal, he's betting the 2019 pick is better than #7 and to truly make out he needs it to be #2 or 3.  Just seems like a weird bet to make especially knowing what's at the top of the draft in '18 and '19.  

This doesn't even get into the "problem" of having 7 possible first round picks in the next 3 drafts to go along with Brown, Zizic, and Yabusele (and another 3 second round picks this year).   There simply aren't enough minutes and/or roster spots for everyone, so it's getting to the point where he has to deal for either Butler or Davis.  

EDIT: Just to put a finer point on it, they're essentially betting that either the Lakers in '18 or Kings in '19 will be the 1st-4th worst team.  If both are simply the 5th worst team (seems like a safe-ish bet the Lakers will be better than that next year) in the corresponding year, the lottery odds (and corresponding EV) starts to go against the Cs.    

 
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Not sure how you give up the first overall and not guarantee a first overall in return. :lmao:  Ainge got bent over, then held up without a gun. 

 
Why give the protection on both years? I could see protecting the 2018 but then gloves off if it's #1 in 19, strange  :confused:

 
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so, it is official, right?

Philadelphia completed its trade for the No. 1 overall pick in this year’s NBA draft, landing the pick from the Boston Celtics on Monday in a move that clears the way for the 76ers to grab guard Markelle Fultz.

Philadelphia will hold the No. 1 pick for the second straight year, and worked Fultz out on Saturday night as talks with the Celtics got to the final stages. It was agreed to in principle at that point, with the last holdup being the customary league approval on the terms.

Boston gets the No. 3 pick in Thursday’s draft from Philadelphia, plus either a first-rounder in 2018 and 2019. If the Los Angeles Lakers hold a pick between No. 2 and No. 5 next season, Boston gets that one. If not, Philadelphia will send Boston either its own first-rounder in 2019 or Sacramento’s first-rounder that year.
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http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nba/2017/06/19/sixers-land-pick-chance-draft-fultz/103013580/

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
You scroll down or you ignore.  This is as much his board as it is yours.  Your right not to be annoyed by him is not stronger than his right to post on a public message board.  Trying to shame or discourage somebody from posting his thoughts about basketball in a basketball thread because it annoys you is ridiculous.  Seriously--instead of taking all this time going back and forth with me about it--click the ignore function and use your fingers to scroll down.  It's not that hard.   I'm not trying to be rude or confrontational with you--so I'll leave it at that.  I hope that you have a good day.   
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Wait....the troll that wants to turn this thread into a Bron circle jerk is complaining about somebody talking hoops?  That is rich.  Fwiw, the minute I put Troll on ignore this thread became readable and enjoyable again.

 
5Rings said:
Wait....the troll that wants to turn this thread into a Bron circle jerk is complaining about somebody talking hoops?  That is rich.  Fwiw, the minute I put Troll on ignore this thread became readable and enjoyable again.
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Not sure how you guys can't tell the difference between a guys personal NBA blog and basketball discussion but enjoy.

 
GroveDiesel said:
The more I think about it, the more a #### move this was by PG. If he says that he has decided to fully test free agency at the end of 2018, it hurts his trade value a bit, but doesn't kill it.

But leaking that he has decided not to return to the Pacers and wants to go to the Lakers absolutely destroys his trade value. 

About the only worse way to handle it would have been to have a tv special after the season to announce that he was leaving them.

If he's not traded, it's going to be pretty miserable as the tens of fans at the stadium boo him constantly.
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I don't think it matters how the players handle it. Fans whining about the Dwight/LeBron/etc situations have always bothered me. These players don't owe these teams ####. Teams do what's in their best interest, and players do what's in theirs. The Pacers are not owed a kings ransom for PG. The asset they "own" is a one more year of PG. They have an opportunity to trade that asset. If they don't have his rights past that (or the possibility of a team getting them), tough. They should've traded him long ago if they wanted to have the opportunity to trade away 4 years of PG's services.

I'm just a pissed off Hornets fan. It's been a long time since we've had a great player that was worth getting a bounty for. For the teams that do have those sorts of players, just take what you can get. I don't want to hear any whining that you had a great  player for 7-10 years, then didn't get a big enough bounty when you traded him away.

And they'll be able to get plenty. As long as there is more than one team interested, they still have to compete with each other.

 
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pollardsvision said:
I don't think it matters how the players handle it. Fans whining about the Dwight/LeBron/etc situations have always bothered me. These players don't owe these teams ####. Teams do what's in their best interest, and players do what's in theirs. The Pacers are not owed a kings ransom for PG. The asset they "own" is a one more year of PG. They have an opportunity to trade that asset. If they don't have his rights past that (or the possibility of a team getting them), tough. They should've traded him long ago if they wanted to have the opportunity to trade away 4 years of PG's services.

I'm just a pissed off Hornets fan. It's been a long time since we've had a great player that was worth getting a bounty for. For the teams that do have those sorts of players, just take what you can get. I don't want to hear any whining that you had a great  player for 7-10 years, then didn't get a big enough bounty when you traded him away.

And they'll be able to get plenty. As long as there is more than one team interested, they still have to compete with each other.
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Of course they don't "owe" the teams or fans anything.  But the fans don't owe the players support or warm feelings either.  It's a two way street. If a player is unwilling to do small things to ingratiate themselves to the fan base that has given them so much adoration (and money), the fans have every right to think less of those players. If George pushes he way out of Indiana in a way that lessens the return for the team the fans can adjust their feelings towards the contributions of their former franchise player accordingly.

Everyone talks these days about the players' freedom and what they should be entitled to do and how they don't owe anyone anything, and I agree 100%.  But nobody ever talks about how that goes both ways. You're not entitled to be loved and appreciated and applauded or even to have people refrain from booing you.

 
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Who said George is doing any of this for the fans?  He owes the organization to be giving his max effort while under contract.  If the fans appreciate that and want to cheer him great, if not that's ok too.  I'm sure he understands if the Indy fans boo him but that doesn't seem to be his main concern.

 
sjslacker said:
Who said George is doing any of this for the fans?  He owes the organization to be giving his max effort while under contract.  If the fans appreciate that and want to cheer him great, if not that's ok too.  I'm sure he understands if the Indy fans boo him but that doesn't seem to be his main concern.
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Are you trying to say he isn't giving his max? 

 
thecatch said:
There are still huge question marks for the Sixers - if they are still a lottery team in 2019, he's getting their chances at winning the 2-3 spots, and protecting against the (exceedingly unlikely) possibility that the Kings improve faster than expected. 
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curious as to what the huge questions marks are? Obviously being healthy and injury free is a biggie, but not sure how many teams you can put on the hook for that. if it was Embiid's foot or back last year you could blame the Sixers, but the injuries they have seen, despite being basically the whole team's MCLs, are things that are hard to account for. 

I would say clutch shooting is still potentially a hurdle, but with Furkan Korkmaz coming over in a year or 2, and multiple "good" shooters on the team (TLC, Covington can be streaky but is good when on, Bayless, Embiid, etc.) i don't see it being a big roadblock. There have been constant rumours for last month and a half about the Sixers signing JJ Reddick too. 

The trade does seem to be good for both. I know everyone wants to analyze who "wins" a trade, but with this one it seems pretty even. That Lakers/Kings pick is a valuable asset, and Fultz seems to be on a tier of his own, but a guy like Isaac or Taytum seems to be more valuable to the Celtics then adding another guard at an already clogged position (Johnson i know is higher on most mocks, but in my absolutely non-expert opinion he just seems like a better Jalyon Brown). Sixers get the guy that fits wonderfully on their team and sacrifice potential future gain. But at some point you need to cash in your assets, and Colangelo did it in a balanced way without sacrificing too much

 
sjslacker said:
Who said George is doing any of this for the fans?  He owes the organization to be giving his max effort while under contract.  If the fans appreciate that and want to cheer him great, if not that's ok too.  I'm sure he understands if the Indy fans boo him but that doesn't seem to be his main concern.
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Nobody?

 
I feel like Celtic fans pumped themselves up so much for Fultz and turned him into the next great superstar of the league that anything short of a Herschel Walker type deal feels like a huge loss to them right now. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
Of course they don't "owe" the teams or fans anything.  But the fans don't owe the players support or warm feelings either.  It's a two way street. If a player is unwilling to do small things to ingratiate themselves to the fan base that has given them so much adoration (and money), the fans have every right to think less of those players. If George pushes he way out of Indiana in a way that lessens the return for the team the fans can adjust their feelings towards the contributions of their former franchise player accordingly.
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Ok, fair enough.  I misread your point, I guess we're saying the same thing in different ways.  I guess George knows his actions will piss off the Indy fans but he felt it was still worth it.

 
TobiasFunke said:
My only issue is doing it in a way that eliminates the market for a trade and thus harms your current team.
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Why would a player have loyalty to their soon to be ex team, while reducing the strength of their future team?  Reminds me of how Carmelo in the long run screwed the Knicks by demanding a trade, which removed valuable assets the Knicks could have used later.

You can't "not harm your current team" without constructively hurting your future team by increasing the strength of the offer necessary to acquire your future services.

 
msudaisy26 said:
I feel like Celtic fans pumped themselves up so much for Fultz and turned him into the next great superstar of the league that anything short of a Herschel Walker type deal feels like a huge loss to them right now. 
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yeah i was thinking little of this, but more of the fact that (majority of this thread excluded) Celtics acquired a huge bandwagon this year and all of a sudden everyone in New England is a Celtics fan again. And these bandwagon jumpers are aware of the Nets draft picks trade and the current team. So anything less then a complete ripoff of another team is a loss

 
Kevin Durant will reportedly decline his player option for the 2017-18 season in order to renegotiate his contract with the Warriors to make it easier for them to re-sign Andre Iguodala this summer.

Durant is reportedly willing to take roughly a $4 million discount in order to let the dynasty in Golden State continue, and this move will help the Dubs invoke their Bird rights on an Iguodala deal that will be competitive with other offers he'll receive on the open market. It's currently believed that Durant will sign another two-year deal with a player option on Year-2, and it'll be interesting to see if Stephen Curry is also willing to sign at a discount in order to keep this team together.

Even when Durant doesn't change teams he is trying to ruin the NBA!

Edit: how much did Durant really hate playing with Westbrook?

 
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modogg said:
this should be bumped more. Even if people don't like the Sixers and Hinkie, it is a great example of the internet holding people accountable for what they say and every opinion that is thrown out there
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Retweet Armageddon, as Levin explained it to me last year, was the day when Sixers fans would look back from commanding heights and shame all who had ever failed to Trust The Process. Every shortsighted critic would be exposed, those of insufficient faith or unworthy vision would be shamed. In that moment, the believers who had suffered through the team’s years in the desert/basement would be exalted and made glorious in their faith, or anyway be able to gloat about everyone who didn’t think Joel Embiid would ever make it via ironic retweet.
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“I f— love it,” Levin said. “Especially the ‘you haven’t even won anything yet! Pathetic!’ crowd pushing back.” Is it petty? It is majestically petty, “the pettiest thing in internet history,” in Levin’s words. It’s deluded and grandiose and silly and hopeful, and it is world-historically petty. It’s every great and small thing that fandom is, in short, and it is a glory to behold.
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flranger said:
Why would a player have loyalty to their soon to be ex team, while reducing the strength of their future team?  Reminds me of how Carmelo in the long run screwed the Knicks by demanding a trade, which removed valuable assets the Knicks could have used later.

You can't "not harm your current team" without constructively hurting your future team by increasing the strength of the offer necessary to acquire your future services.
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In this case I don't think there's much harm done to his future team either way. Nevertheless, he's obviously within his riguhts to do it ... but the fans have every right to think less of him for doing so. His loyalty would be to them since they gave so much to him.  Again he doesn't have to do it that way, but if he doesn't it's entirely reasonable for fans to react accordingly. The right to change allegiances and loyalties goes both ways.

 
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msudaisy26 said:
Kevin Durant will reportedly decline his player option for the 2017-18 season in order to renegotiate his contract with the Warriors to make it easier for them to re-sign Andre Iguodala this summer.

Durant is reportedly willing to take roughly a $4 million discount in order to let the dynasty in Golden State continue, and this move will help the Dubs invoke their Bird rights on an Iguodala deal that will be competitive with other offers he'll receive on the open market. It's currently believed that Durant will sign another two-year deal with a player option on Year-2, and it'll be interesting to see if Stephen Curry is also willing to sign at a discount in order to keep this team together.

Even when Durant doesn't change teams he is trying to ruin the NBA!

Edit: how much did Durant really hate playing with Westbrook?
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I don't think it matters for Curry because the cap hold is the same either way?  Kev/Sammy/Catch or others correct me if I am wrong

 
FYI Curry taking a discount won't help the Warriors retain anyone, it will only save the owners luxury tax payments.  Warriors are already over the cap once Curry extends.  Warriors don't have bird rights on KD yet, that's why KD taking a discount helps re-sign Iggy.

 
sjslacker said:
FYI Curry taking a discount won't help the Warriors retain anyone, it will only save the owners luxury tax payments.  Warriors are already over the cap once Curry extends.  Warriors don't have bird rights on KD yet, that's why KD taking a discount helps re-sign Iggy.
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This, from what I have read they can offer Iggy about 8 to 12 per year. Rumor has it other teams are going to offer him closer to 20 million. I think Iggy might stay for 16ish million and chase titles and history.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Long Ball Larry said:
It must be, because the Retweet Armageddon is on.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/RTArmageddon?src=hash
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Earvin Magic Johnson @MagicJohnson   The Bucks just acquired the next Jason Kidd in Michael Carter-Williams.

Damn.  The Internet never forgets.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MagicJohnson/status/568591585912467456
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ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha holy crapamoly brohans take that to the bank 

 
msudaisy26 said:
Kevin Durant will reportedly decline his player option for the 2017-18 season in order to renegotiate his contract with the Warriors to make it easier for them to re-sign Andre Iguodala this summer.

Durant is reportedly willing to take roughly a $4 million discount in order to let the dynasty in Golden State continue, and this move will help the Dubs invoke their Bird rights on an Iguodala deal that will be competitive with other offers he'll receive on the open market. It's currently believed that Durant will sign another two-year deal with a player option on Year-2, and it'll be interesting to see if Stephen Curry is also willing to sign at a discount in order to keep this team together.

Even when Durant doesn't change teams he is trying to ruin the NBA!

Edit: how much did Durant really hate playing with Westbrook?
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The Durant thing is interesting. Since he is willing to only take 120% of what he made last year through non-bird rights rather than his max salary (which GS could easily do under the cap), they will be able to act as an over the cap team rather than under the cap. That means they don't have to renounce anybody's bird rights and have the ability to use those bird rights to sign Iggy and Livingston to whatever contracts they wish. The only limit to their spending with Curry, Livingston, and Iguodala is Lacob's fear of the luxury tax.

 
msudaisy26 said:
This, from what I have read they can offer Iggy about 8 to 12 per year. Rumor has it other teams are going to offer him closer to 20 million. I think Iggy might stay for 16ish million and chase titles and history.
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They could offer Iguodala and Livingtston max deals, hypothetically. The only salary cap limit to their spending with those two is the max salary (roughly $35million/year). The Warriors are going to ask them to take hometown discounts so they don't totally blow up the luxury tax though. That rumored 8-12 for Iggy is what he could reportedly sign for, not what they are able to sign him for.

 
modogg said:
curious as to what the huge questions marks are? Obviously being healthy and injury free is a biggie, but not sure how many teams you can put on the hook for that. if it was Embiid's foot or back last year you could blame the Sixers, but the injuries they have seen, despite being basically the whole team's MCLs, are things that are hard to account for. 

I would say clutch shooting is still potentially a hurdle, but with Furkan Korkmaz coming over in a year or 2, and multiple "good" shooters on the team (TLC, Covington can be streaky but is good when on, Bayless, Embiid, etc.) i don't see it being a big roadblock. There have been constant rumours for last month and a half about the Sixers signing JJ Reddick too. 

The trade does seem to be good for both. I know everyone wants to analyze who "wins" a trade, but with this one it seems pretty even. That Lakers/Kings pick is a valuable asset, and Fultz seems to be on a tier of his own, but a guy like Isaac or Taytum seems to be more valuable to the Celtics then adding another guard at an already clogged position (Johnson i know is higher on most mocks, but in my absolutely non-expert opinion he just seems like a better Jalyon Brown). Sixers get the guy that fits wonderfully on their team and sacrifice potential future gain. But at some point you need to cash in your assets, and Colangelo did it in a balanced way without sacrificing too much
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The Sixers two best players have played a grand total of 31 games in the league combined.  That is a MASSIVE question mark.  This isn't comparable to other teams.

 
rodg12 said:
The Sixers two best players have played a grand total of 31 games in the league combined.  That is a MASSIVE question mark.  This isn't comparable to other teams.
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correct, and like long ball said, you could even say 3. i think the issues with that are possible injuries and the need to gain experience. Nobody is saying the Sixers win a championship this year, the idea is that these 3 guys locked up for multiple years is a legit challenge in 2-3 years

ETA: Warriors have a huge amount of talent. If Simmons can develop an average/good jumper, you have 3 core players that can rival any team in 2-3 years (if Lebron ever ages)

 
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GroveDiesel said:
So right in the middle of serious trade talks and just days before the draft, the Cavs are confirming that they're parting ways with GM David Griffin. Seems smart.
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That tells you how bad of an organization they really are, it takes an top 5 greatest player ever to even win one title. I don't know why anyone would want to play for a Gilbert owned team. 

 
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