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2017 Raiders - how's the 2018 draft looking? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
Chaka
Footballguy
Torrey Smith is a terrible comp. Smith can run one route and has bad hands.
Cooper can run the entire route tree at a very high level...and has bad hands.
Chaka
Footballguy
Kidding aside he has two bad drops this season. As a rookie he dropped 10 passes, last season he dropped 3. I think we need to slow our roll just a bit on the "he's overrated" talk.And poor ball skills.
And poor field awareness.
And poor hand-eye.
I stand by Torrey Smith
Cooper is as complete a WR as there is in the league.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
No kidding here. He's made multiple mistakes along the sideline failing to get feet in when he could. Yesterday was a great example. He jumped, only to catch the ball below his neck. Jumping caused him to miss getting both feet inbounds by less than a foot. A "complete" WR doesn't jump there, he drags those feet and extends his arms (would still have caught it at face height) to make that catch. Chris Carter made about 80 of those in his career. Every elite WR makes them by the dozen. Not Cooper. He's had at least 4 that I can remember where he had similar opportunity but lack of concentration, or field awareness, to get feet inbounds and make the catch - three TD's and one was a key catch late in a game late last year - I even commented on it somewhere around here. He flat dropped two last week again. Those aren't "complete" WR performances. I can name 15 WR easily I would rather have on the field for us, and Crabtree is one of them by a mile.
Chaka
Footballguy
Hankmoody
Footballguy
I don't mind drops per se. They are part of a function of targets and Crabtree had a monster 145 targets. TO had a lot of drops too. What I illustrated above goes way beyond drops.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
I`m just so damn proud of this Raiders team and its staff
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I wouldn't say he has bad hands... more like inconsistent hands. He came make great catches and then make great drops.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
He gets in his own head too much, may be a function of being so young, watch his body language throughout the game, good and bad ones. It would be interesting to see what the coaching staff does to address this.
I didn't see it so much this week but was cooper running any drag routes vs the Jets? He excelled at that vs Ten. If they get him warmed up on a few of those early in most games i think we would see more positive results.
I didn't see it so much this week but was cooper running any drag routes vs the Jets? He excelled at that vs Ten. If they get him warmed up on a few of those early in most games i think we would see more positive results.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Agreed. Is there any other team that has 2 comprehensive wins to its name? The D is like a Boa Constrictor slowly crushing the opposing team through the game. Although they let up a bit yesterday
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Agree. Let's be real, here. The guy was not just successful by most measures in college (Biletnikoff Award? Unanimous All American? First Team SEC?) but is a 2x Pro Bowler. He is not Sammie Coates (true trouble with his hands) or a guy like Peter Warrick or Desmond Howard (bona fide studs in college, meh at the pro level). Cooper has "it" -- it's just that "it" is really inconsistent.
Overall, he seems to be a little rawer than I'd like. Good news is that there is signs he is 110% motivated to get there -- bulking up in the offseason, dedicating himself to offseason workout regiments and mini camps, etc. And let's not forget that as an ascending star, Cooper is probably drawing talented coverage his way that as he continues to mature (he's 22) he'll continue to add to his arsenal of moves, breaks, and efficiency in his route tree.
So while I think saying he has bad hands or he's overrated is a little hyperbole, you and hankmoody are calling out some very real problems in his game right now that he needs to correct -- but I think he will.
My two shmeckels.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Just getting around to watching the full game.
Hate Tripplette even more. The guy almost had relish in his voice calling his bullkaka penalties on the Raiders.
Lynch is such a beast, love watching him run. But Richard has the most impressive burst on the team. He showed it last year, but he seems head and shoulders better than Washington, whereas I didn't see that mush separation between the two last year in terms of skill and promise.
Was that underthrown ball for Crabs' second TD purposely underthrown? Almost seems that way given timing. Either way Crabs made his coverage look stoopid.
Our D line looks super quick off the snap, Look like swarming dervishes. Howie Long giving pointers mayhaps?
I like Patterson. I really do. Deserved that TD based on effort (Hudson and Osemele really road headed some holes for him). And he looked solid and quick out there. But also feel that he doesn't really have anything except for end arounds, jet sweeps, and direct snaps. After two games, opposing teams really have seen all he has to offer and I feel he becomes easily neutralized here on out.
Been critical of King's antics, but never his play - he gives us such a huge advantage on special teams, not just in distance, but in hangtime. Horton's recovery of the muffed punt absolutely due to the hangtime allowing him to buzz the receiver, and our guys were on the verge of literally obliterating returners at the point of the catch a few times.
Love that we kept feeding Lynch in the red zone, even after two missed attempts on early downs.
Some great cellys in the game - Crabs surrounded by cheerleaders after his third TD; Lynch's ballet on the sidelines. This team is having fun.
Kearse Forte and McCown looked ok. Elijah McGuire showed promise. It's the rest of this Jets team that look like turd.
Good riddance infield dirt. So embarrassing, and while I'll miss the Black Hole, I won't miss this abomination of a stadium.
Thanks for your indulgence.
Hate Tripplette even more. The guy almost had relish in his voice calling his bullkaka penalties on the Raiders.
Lynch is such a beast, love watching him run. But Richard has the most impressive burst on the team. He showed it last year, but he seems head and shoulders better than Washington, whereas I didn't see that mush separation between the two last year in terms of skill and promise.
Was that underthrown ball for Crabs' second TD purposely underthrown? Almost seems that way given timing. Either way Crabs made his coverage look stoopid.
Our D line looks super quick off the snap, Look like swarming dervishes. Howie Long giving pointers mayhaps?
I like Patterson. I really do. Deserved that TD based on effort (Hudson and Osemele really road headed some holes for him). And he looked solid and quick out there. But also feel that he doesn't really have anything except for end arounds, jet sweeps, and direct snaps. After two games, opposing teams really have seen all he has to offer and I feel he becomes easily neutralized here on out.
Been critical of King's antics, but never his play - he gives us such a huge advantage on special teams, not just in distance, but in hangtime. Horton's recovery of the muffed punt absolutely due to the hangtime allowing him to buzz the receiver, and our guys were on the verge of literally obliterating returners at the point of the catch a few times.
Love that we kept feeding Lynch in the red zone, even after two missed attempts on early downs.
Some great cellys in the game - Crabs surrounded by cheerleaders after his third TD; Lynch's ballet on the sidelines. This team is having fun.
Kearse Forte and McCown looked ok. Elijah McGuire showed promise. It's the rest of this Jets team that look like turd.
Good riddance infield dirt. So embarrassing, and while I'll miss the Black Hole, I won't miss this abomination of a stadium.
Thanks for your indulgence.
Looked like a back shoulder lob to me. Seems a little unconventional but executed perfectly. To me it looked like the Jet's safety could have made a TD saving tackle if he would have hustled once he saw the ball thrown but was pretty lackadaisical coming over to help. If that was one of our guys I'd be calling for his head.
Cooper - You guys are being pretty rough on him. Dude was as polished a wr as one could hope for as a rookie and is only going to get better. Other WR's taken in the draft after him - Kevin White, DeVante Parker, Algohor, Perriman, Dorsett, Devin Smith, DGB, Funchess, Lockett and way down there Diggs. I think Diggs is the only one right now one could argue that we would rather have. Seems like we got the best WR in the draft by a mile and it was a position of need.
My only complaint from the Jets game is with 7min left, leading 42-20, why do we still have our franchise QB in there throwing the ball? Yes there was nowhere near any pressure on him but Teddy Bridgewater didn't have any pressure on him when he blew out his knee in practice. Also we're throwing to one of our RB's across the middle and the guy is getting hammered. Small complaint but I didn't like seeing it.
Redskins next who seem to be under performing a bit on offense to start the season. Obviously not a team to be overlooked.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
At least Washington will have travelled as much as us minus our trip out to Ten. At 1st glance of the schedule when it was released that seemed a bit rough, but the league usually is, on us. Now not so bad
Hankmoody
Footballguy
It was garbage that they didn't give us those two games in a row. A 3-0 start with this schedule would be ridiculous.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Raiders fans, this kicker legit? A must add? Kicking on a team that scores 28+ a week. FBGs has him 26th going forward. SeaBass out the year or likely back?
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I think we almost cut him (Seabass) but he agreed to a pay cut of about a million with chance to get a chunk back based on performance. The back opened the door for Linguine.... and he has been taking advantage of it being perfect so far. Seabass is old, now has a back problem, has not been as accurate or long as he use to be (see old thing), and is expensive (even with the pay cut). Right now- Fettuccine is on an extended job interview. If he continues to kick like he has been then I can easily see us either keeping Seabass on IR all year or when he is healthy cutting him. If Farfalle all of a sudden implodes then we have Seabass.
If I was going to bet money on it then I would put my money on Penne but it is far from being a slam dunk at this point. Remember, Gnocchi has been cut 7 times in his career.... I think 3 times where Seabass has beat him. That says two things to me. 1) He was not good enough to beat anyone out before 2) He showed enough to keep getting chances.
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Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
100% legit. The guy's kicks from any yardage so far -- but especially the long ones -- have been consistent and crisp, right-down-the-middle attempts.
He's so far 3-3 in all kicks over 40 yards (great if your system rewards for longer kicks) and has racked up 8/8 XPs, second only to Denver and the Chiefs (underscoring yet again how tough our division is overall).
To your point, Raiders look to be able to score points, so while I hesitate to call him a must-add, I would not be surprised to see Tavecchio be Top 5 by YE. A safer play is to stream him.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
I can't believe nobody is talking about Conley. He didn't look like a rookie playing in his first game to me. Yeah it was the Jets, but it was the perfect team to get his feet wet. I thought he showed out and flashed 1st round talent, while Amerson was getting beat on the other side by the likes of Kearse. Sean Smith (Wally Pipp) may have just lost his job.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I see the Jets as about as valuable as a pre-season game in terms of getting excited about how a player plays. As far as players to cover the best the Jets have is Kearse.... a guy that the less than stacked at WR Seahawks were more than happy to part with.... and then..... and..... you know, I watched the game and I still can't tell you who another Jets receiver is on the team. The Jet offense is putrid though I have more respect for their defense but come on, you can't seriously make any judgements about Conley based on one game against the Jets. It would have been HORRIBLE if he did not look against them and that is about as much value as it is.
The Jets are a team we are suppose to beat badly and we did. The team took care of business, look to have good team chemistry and are focused (beating the teams you are suppose to beat shows me that they are not taking things for granted).
The Jets are in a race to the 1st overall pick with the Bears. So, yea, I am not talking about Conley........ yet.
Thanks for enlightening me buddy. I had no idea the Jets were that bad. Geez, condescend much? Give the kid some credit. He sat out the whole preseason and he went out and played well, yes against a WR that would normally be on someone's practice squad. But who cares? He had the awareness to try and deflect the ball to Nelson on his first time defending an NFL pass from an NFL QB. I consider that impressive considering he's playing against professionals trying their best to win a game no matter how bad their team is.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I am going to side with Bruno on this. I am not sure how good Conley is going to be but he played well in his first game in the NFL. That counts for something. He is going to get burned a few times this season and will likely have some ugly games but it looks like he has a good future.
joey
Footballguy
Bruno2 said:
I tried to get the Conley conversation going 2 days ago but no one bit, I guess.
I liked what I saw from him. The best quote I saw was that article where Mack said he knew Conley would do great in his debut since he saw him studying film late on Saturday night, and the best thing to be said about a rookie CB's debut is when you are basically not talking about him. True dat.
Like I said in my previous post, a defensive backfield of Conley, Amerson, Joseph and Nelson sounds pretty darn solid to me. And if Obi can get on the field and develop... perhaps it might even a strength of the D as the season progresses. :|
Chadstroma
Footballguy
No condescending meant. Apologies for that impression.Bruno2 said:
I am sorry, it just isn't anything to be excited about. There were good indications but I need to see much more than going up against the Jets receiving corp to really get excited or start talking him up.
He earned a "he did a good job against the Jets, here is to hoping he can play well against a good team" and that is about all I am willing to give at this point. I am not down on the kid- I think we got a steal for him at where we got him in the draft. It is more a commentary on the Jets and not getting excited about things until there is real reason to than anything else.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Actually agree with this. Don't get me wrong, super psyched to see Conley out there and performing. But that's performing up to expectation. I hold any player to a higher standard than simply celebrating one great play. He'll need to show consistency and a level of high play before I start naming him and this squad the second coming of the Soul Patrol.
But that said, yes, really excited to see him doing well -- we need him to.
No worries man, we're all on the same side, we all want Conley to be the real deal. And I will admit I should temper my expectations a bit.
That being said, it's a great start for him and a good sign that he's on the right track. Reggie missed on Hayden so in my mind it was good to see the second corner he drafted in the first round has a chance to be a solid starter.
I have a feeling we will see a lot more of Conley Sunday night as I'm sure Cousins is going to test the rookie a lot more than McCown did.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Plenty of reason to be excited about Conley. Jets or not, dude displayed CB1 skills in his first NFL action. That's leaps better than most of the drafted CBs we've seen come through here. Who was the last Raiders rookie CB that looked like this in his first game? Woodson?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkNPixJzXfs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkNPixJzXfs
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I don't see the Raiders D emerging as one of the best in the league in the near future. Maybe at the very end of the season but there are too many question marks at LB and in the secondary.
LawFitz
Footballguy
The effect of Pagano and a huge infusion of talent the last two seasons has been apparent to start this year, after an admittedly awful preseason. I am cautiously becoming a believer.
massraider
Footballguy
Going to DC for game this weekend!
LawFitz
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
By the way, regarding Conley, I feel where @Chadstroma coming from. Not just for Conley, every player going against the Jets needs to be graded on a curve.
But that play, on the intermediate sideline ball, where he leaped, tipped it, and attempted to tip it to his teammate, was a big time play-versus ANYONE. Thanks to the magic of Twitter, here's the play. Check that out. Nelson was heading to where he thought the tipped ball was going, because he didn't think Conley would ever get his hands on it again. If Nelson hadn't swerved upfield, he had a pick, courtesy of Conley. For a kid with no camp, no offseason to speak of, I think we can be a little excited.
I'm a lot excited about Karl Joseph. He's easy to spot, he's the guy moving faster than everyone else on the field.
I was not unhappy with Cory James, and Marquel Lee. Didn't really dive into the Game Pass, but just watching the game, I liked what I saw.
Also pretty excited to see Mario Jr. banging around. He and Vanderdoes seem like a fine pair to me on the D-line. I dunno if Vanderdoes is ever gonna be Aaron Donald, but he's going to be a splash player vs. the run. When he gets leverage, he really tosses people around.
The great thing about Patterson is that he at least gives the D something to think about. I hope we can use him to soften the run defense, because teams are loading up against Beast Mode.
But that play, on the intermediate sideline ball, where he leaped, tipped it, and attempted to tip it to his teammate, was a big time play-versus ANYONE. Thanks to the magic of Twitter, here's the play. Check that out. Nelson was heading to where he thought the tipped ball was going, because he didn't think Conley would ever get his hands on it again. If Nelson hadn't swerved upfield, he had a pick, courtesy of Conley. For a kid with no camp, no offseason to speak of, I think we can be a little excited.
I'm a lot excited about Karl Joseph. He's easy to spot, he's the guy moving faster than everyone else on the field.
I was not unhappy with Cory James, and Marquel Lee. Didn't really dive into the Game Pass, but just watching the game, I liked what I saw.
Also pretty excited to see Mario Jr. banging around. He and Vanderdoes seem like a fine pair to me on the D-line. I dunno if Vanderdoes is ever gonna be Aaron Donald, but he's going to be a splash player vs. the run. When he gets leverage, he really tosses people around.
The great thing about Patterson is that he at least gives the D something to think about. I hope we can use him to soften the run defense, because teams are loading up against Beast Mode.
I'm not sold on the defense as a whole yet. Allowing 20 pts to the Jets is not something to brag about. If you look at the overall stats of the game, they were ok, not dominant by any means. They allowed 17 1st downs, 126 yds rushing and TOP was almost even, slightly in favor of the Raiders. And Amerson didn't have a great game either.
The good news is that Edwards looks to be his old self again. He's got 2 sacks, it's important that other players get sacks besides Mack, so that's a good sign. They'restarting to blitz Joseph as well to generate pressure.
We'll find out a lot more about the Raiders defense the next two weeks. There are no easy games the rest of the way.
massraider
Footballguy
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Ed Wood
Footballguy
Turns out he wasn't trying to tip the ball to Nelson.
You can catch his response at the beginning of this clip. A little hard to hear but it's something like:Conley: No, I was making sure I was going to hit it down cuz I didn't know where the receiver was. I was making sure...
Reporter: It looked like the way Reggie was coming over you were trying to get it to him.
Conley: Nah, I was making sure it was incomplete.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJmA0zrp1GQ
Hankmoody
Footballguy
That's asking an awful lot. The talent level seems to be close, but we still give up an awful lot of things we "shouldn't" based on the talent. We have pretty good pass rushers on paper with Mack, Irvin, Mario, Vanderdoes up and coming but don't seem to get a lot of pressure. The secondary on paper has promise too - Sean Smith was a huge UFA signing just a year ago and needs to bounce back, Conley is an elite rookie, Nelson a solid veteran and Joseph a heat-seeking missile. Nelson might need upgraded but he's not the liability he was at times in CIN. The LB's are the weakest link. We just haven't put any resources into them in terms of picks (5th's, 6th's, and UDFA, no significant Free Agents) so it's hard to expect much. Hopefully it's looked at next year.
I think it's realistic to see the D be a "not liability" if we stay healthy and the O continues to protect them - minimize turnovers, 3-and-outs, keep the field position advantage. Conley is a huge addition, because not only does he massively upgrade one starting spot but whoever he replaces can then bolster the 3rd CB slot, which bolsters the 4th CB, and so on down the line. We can't take injuries though.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
24th in pass D last year, 23rd in rush D. I think top half in league in both would be a significant achievement. 12th and 17th now (moving them both up two notches because of teams two teams that have played only one game).
They can't play the Jets every week...
Chadstroma
Footballguy
As you may have seen in some recent conversation about Conley. I am a bit cautiously reserved on what we have seen so far this season. With that said, I have been one of the biggest voices talking about how this defense is just brimming with potential to in fact end up being one of the best in the league.
Why do I believe that? First, the defense is YOUNG. Every play on the defense other than four are 4 years of experience. Two are still 'young' (Amerson and Irvin) and the old guys are Sean Smith who seems to be on the way out play wise and Nelson whom I believe we have a good replacement in the wings with Obi.
Second, there is a lot of talent there. Mack is an elite top 3 defensive player in the league kind of game changer. Irvin is good. If these young guys continue to develop and play around Mack then wow.
Third, I think the last draft was great. Conley fell to us in a total steal because of the allegations. Obi, from some reports, was going to be our 1st round pick before Conley was there. Vanderdoes was a 5 star college guy who got hurt and didnt rebound quickly. I think all three will be impact players.
Fourth, a lot of the attention about the D from last year was on the secondary and middle LB. I actually believe that one of the bigger problems was lack of disruption from the DT positions. Pretty consistently Mack and our other edge guys would break down the play from the outside but the QB could just step up in the pocket. If we get a good push on that, not even someone breaking through, it will make a huge difference and make the edge guys more effective as well. It will also help the secondary which I think got improved with Conley and Obi.
There are pieces there. Pagano I think is helping. But there is a long way to go. The great thing is these guys are young so we have a great D to build for years to come. The bad thing is these guys are young and still developing and learning the game.
Also, I am not really expecting this D to turn in shut outs. Our offense is a whole lot for any team to handle and that will put pressure on our D. I don't expect our D to do well in yards given up or points allowed. I do expect them to get a lot of 3 and outs and turnovers as they mature.
This is it right here. We don't need the 85 Bears - just don't hurt us. Tenn moved ball well early & Jets were only down 14-10into half before the punt fumble. Then it seemed D settled in & our O put up points which then unleashes the rush. We are built around the O. The D just needs to keep things in control & eventually our OL & Carr will take over.
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