the moops
Footballguy
Dude's been hanging out with Gordon Hayward too much
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2022-23 NBA Thread: “you’ll never let me down like the Heat did”, Miami fan says to giant pile of cocaine (3 Viewers)
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Kev4029
Footballguy
It really helps to play that many minutes when nobody played any defense. I'm confident that players could play 40+ minutes a night if they didn't have to defend against the PnR and run off screens all game.
the moops
Footballguy
Seriously. Wilt was also twelve feet taller than everyone he played against. It's like us playing against middle schoolers
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
…or his brother
Desert_Power
Footballguy
They were just too good for the league with those two healthy and Mark Williams averaging a near 12/10 since the Plumlee trade.
Jayrod
Footballguy
There were 8 teams Wilt's rookie year. He is listed at 7'1". Here is each of his opponents and their tallest player:
Boston Celtics (Champs) - Bill Russell (6'10") All-star
St Louis Hawks (Lost Finals in 7) - Chuck Share (6'11")
Syracuse Nationals - Red Kerr (6'9") & Dolph Schayes (6'8") All-star
Detroit Pistons - Walter Dukes (7'0") All-star
NY Knicks - Ray Felix (6'11")
Minneapolis Lakers - Larry Foust (6'9")
Cincinnati Royals - Phil Jordan (6'10")
He was a physical specimen (and would be so today as well). But it wasn't like everyone was 6'6" back then. He faced some great players and guys in the 6'9" to 7'0" range every night. Now they weren't all as heavy and strong as they are today either, but he was playing in Chuck Taylor All-Star shoes and had limited medical services and athletic training. Watch this highlight video and tell me who stops his fadeaway bank shot or keeps him from finishing on the break today? His strength and speed would still be considered all-world today. Put him on a team with modern coaching and modern medicine and he'd put up stupid good numbers in today's NBA.
Kev4029
Footballguy
That's a pretty sweet video. The frame rate of old sports footage really turns me off from watching it but they did some processing that really helped.
One of the things that to me shows the biggest evolution in the NBA from the 50s/60s to more modern NBA, other than just how much stronger players are, is the absolute lack of ability to do anything with a players non-dominant hand. There are still players that are successful without being able to use their left hands, but it seemed almost non-existent in the early days of the NBA to be able to just dribble with both hands.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Bucks fans.Undefeated in February, on a 15-0 run and now first in the East. Will be a tough matchup for anyone if they can stay healthy.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
A 3rd straight team that is/was better w/o Kyrie on the floor than with.
Imagine that.
Imagine that.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Peaking too early.
Undefeated in February, on a 15-0 run and now first in the East. Will be a tough matchup for anyone if they can stay healthy.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I'm well on the record as disliking Kyrie, but this is just wrong. The bench sucks, coaching sucks, Luka whining, no big man defense. Kyrie's about the only thing working as advertised. Pretty sure he's a decently big +/- on the positive side since joining the Mavs.
the moops
Footballguy
Who are 6 tall basketball players that nobody has ever heard of?
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Kidd the player was one of the all time greats....Kidd the coach has been awful
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I’ve heard of Walter Dukes since he went to Seton Hall.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Johnny “Red” Kerr was a former Bulls coach and their color commentator through the Jordan years. You may recall hearing him screaming in the clip below.
"The Shot." Alternate View of Michael Jordan's Game Winner w/ Radio Call
Michael Jordan's shot over Craig Ehlo in Game 5 of the 1989 NBA Playoffs Eastern Conference First Round with the famous radio call from Jim Durham and Johnny...
m.youtube.com
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I watched BOS-NYK. The Knicks played very well. The Celtics didn't. Sometimes one led to the other, but not always. Last time BOS played in MSG, they hit 27 threes. This time they went 9-42. They got open looks all night and just couldn't make them. NY did a good job harassing Tatum, and the game overall was very physical. The Knicks benefitted from that, as they had 20 more free throws than the C's did. The game turned into a slog . . . lots of game stoppages, not a lot of break opportunities, and impossible to get any rhythm offensively. It didn't help Boston would play great defense for 23 seconds and than the Knicks would make a dagger shot as the shot clock expired. Overall, BOS got beat off the dribble a lot, and that broke down the defense. And of course, the dumb turnovers at the worst possible moments were the icing on the cake. Hats off to the Knicks, they played great and earned the W.
The play Tatum got upset over was a three pointer where a defender tried blocking his shot but got him in the face with his hand, in the arm with the swipe, and got in his landing zone. The refs just missed it, and he wouldn't let it go. They just looked off the whole game. Timelord doesn't look the same. He's not playing as aggressively as he did last season. Several times, he got out positioned / out hustled on rebounds that resulted in easy putbacks. Maybe the team has told him not to go crazy in the regular season and save it for the playoffs. I want to say it was just an off night, but they've had too many games like that in too close a timespan.
Another issue is now that most everyone is healthy, finding guys minutes will be a problem. They can't play everyone, and hoping someone can come in after sitting for three quarters to give someone a 4-minute rest and expect that guy to contribute is unrealistic.
the moops
Footballguy
But seriously, this would be like someone saying that Shaq had a tough road in the NBA because he had to play against other tall guys like 7 footers Matt Geiger, Will Perdue, and Big Country Reeves
Jayrod
Footballguy
Didn't say anything about it being a "tough road" but was in response to this quote:
The idea that Wilt was substantially taller than his opponents is false. He had a height advantage, but it wasn't like it was even 4-5".... more like 2-3" most nights. And with 8-12 teams in the league for most of his career, he faced the same guys over and over (they played each team about 7-10 times per year).
His best advantage was his overall athleticism and strength. He actually lifted weights and was a track star. Most of the taller guys he faced were bean poles compared to Wilt. I don't care what era you play in, a 7'-0" guy that can bench 500 lbs, run the 40 in 4.6 and have a vert of 45" is a load to deal with. He was a physical freak then and would be today. The only guy in NBA history with similar size and athleticism is Giannis.
the moops
Footballguy
1962-1963 season.
Wilt faced off against these powerhouse centers not named Bill Russell or Walt Bellamy (all who led their team in minutes at center)
6'9" Paul Hogue
6'9" Red Kerr
6'8" Wayne Embry
6'8" Jim Krebs
6'9" Zelmo Beaty
6'8" Bob Ferry
So no, he wasn't 12 feet taller (obviously). But this is like Jayson Tatum trying to cover Joel Embiid in the post
Wilt faced off against these powerhouse centers not named Bill Russell or Walt Bellamy (all who led their team in minutes at center)
6'9" Paul Hogue
6'9" Red Kerr
6'8" Wayne Embry
6'8" Jim Krebs
6'9" Zelmo Beaty
6'8" Bob Ferry
So no, he wasn't 12 feet taller (obviously). But this is like Jayson Tatum trying to cover Joel Embiid in the post
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I'm guessing that not many people here are old enough to have watched Wilt play. Sure, the league was smaller (in both height and number of teams) and there wasn't the same level of athleticism there is today. But just because someone is tall doesn't mean he will automatically be great at basketball and score a lot of points. How many other 7'+ players have there been that have been offensive juggernauts? I seem to remember a lot of tall players that were defensive specialists that weren't great for anything other than rebounds and blocks.
Currently, there's Embiid and Giannis (Jokic is close height wise) that are in the 7 foot range. How many teams / players consistently defend those guys very well? Not many. Guys like Wilt and Kareem were tough to guard . . . but it's not like the league found some magic jellybeans since then to better defend 7 foot tall players that can score a ton of points.
(I had posted that Wilt played a ton of games and a ton of minutes . . . not sure how that turned into Wilt playing against middle schoolers.
Currently, there's Embiid and Giannis (Jokic is close height wise) that are in the 7 foot range. How many teams / players consistently defend those guys very well? Not many. Guys like Wilt and Kareem were tough to guard . . . but it's not like the league found some magic jellybeans since then to better defend 7 foot tall players that can score a ton of points.
(I had posted that Wilt played a ton of games and a ton of minutes . . . not sure how that turned into Wilt playing against middle schoolers.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Of course, no one is going to average 50pts/22rbs again like Wilt did. If your point is that he had a major physical advantage at his position for 75% of the season, you are correct.
The whole starting point of this discussion was the amount of time off and minutes played by players in today's NBA vs Wilt. Is it reasonable to expect players to play 45 minutes a game for 80 games/year? In 14 years, Wilt played in 79 or more games 11 times and averaged 45.8 mpg for his career. While he may not have been facing guys that were his size most nights, the pace was considerably faster in the NBA then. Back then, average team pace fluctuated around 115-125/game. This season it is at 99.2. Basically, he wasn't banging into guys as much, but he was running end to end way more often (20+ times/game more than today's NBA).
Mikal Bridges has averaged 32 mpg and played in every available game since he entered the league. Lebron's busiest season was his 2nd year (age 20) where he played in 80 games at 42.4 mpg. These are probably the 2 closest examples of ironmen in today's game.
I don't think 82 games at 45 mpg is feasible for anyone unless they coast for large portions of the game. And maybe that is the biggest difference from 1960's to now...that teams don't coast through games as much as they used to. Still, for guys like Kyrie & Kawhi who average like 55 games/year over 10+ seasons at 32-35 mpg, the question should be raised about their commitment to their job and their responsibility to the team and fans. Load management is a problem and the NBA owners are going to address it sooner rather than later.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
To take a sidebar, I have the same curiosity about pitchers in baseball. Going back 40-50 years ago, teams had aces that went every 4 games and would rack up 300-350+ IP. As a kid, I remember an extra inning game where Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches. Now teams won't let guys throw 100 pitches in a game, they hardly ever pitch without 4 days rest, and most starters don't go more than 5 or 6 innings. Only 4 pitchers last season had more than 1 complete game. In all that time, did pitching change all that much? Is there that much more strain on a pitcher now vs. then? Sure, I get it that they care more about spin rates and more guys throw splits and things that are likely harder on arms / shoulders / elbows. But the horses back in the day all had good stuff and managed to have long, successful careers. I can't imagine guys in the 70s were in better shape or better conditioned.
General Malaise
Footballguy
How does he keep getting jobs?
the moops
Footballguy
I mean, they were 52-30 last year
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Kidd has had only one losing season out of 7 (including this year, although DAL is barely over .500 at this stage). I wouldn't argue that he should have won more with guys like Giannis and Luka on his roster.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The Kings are 20-2 against UTA, LAL, OKC, SAS, HOU, ORL, CHA, and DET. They are 16-23 in all their other games. They've been great against the bottom feeders.
the moops
Footballguy
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Has any 3 seed in recent memory been mocked and laughed at more than Sacramento?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Players love him. Giannis was very upset when the Bucks fired him.
My take is Kidd would be a great assistant coach. He just isn't head coach material, but for a guy that was a leader on the court and an all time greag point guard I doubt his ego will let him take a backseat.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Nuggets the year they lost to the Warriors in round 1. Like 2014ish
the moops
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I could be wrong on the year. Golden State was the 6th seed that year.
the moops
Footballguy
Oh sorry, my bad, I misread your post. Carry on pleaseI could be wrong on the year. Golden State was the 6th seed that year.
Well, (1) several of those teams are at or approaching .500, they aren't exactly tanking, and (2) I suspect you'd get similar results if you did that analysis for most of the other teams in the league other than the top 3-4 contenders.
nirad3
Footballguy
Unless I somehow missed it in the past few hours' worth of posts here.....
Ja Morant in some doo-doo
Ja Morant in some doo-doo
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Only because I was curious as to how the top 8 teams (by record) stacked up . . .
Records vs. teams with losing records / .500 or better:
MIL 21-7 / 23-10
BOS 23-7 / 21-11
DEN 24-8 / 20-11
PHI 22-10 / 17-11
MEM 22-8 / 15-15
CLE 24-7 / 15-18
SAC 24-7 / 12-18
NYK 21-9 / 15-18
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
Knickerbockers come close to putting up 50pts in the 1st vs the Nets. 47-29 after 1.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Only against Charlotte but the Suns coming out with KD and doing exactly what was expected.
- KD/Book dropping the points with some help from Ayton
- Ayton grabs the boards
- Chris doesn't even have to score, just distribute.
It's going to be a hard formula to beat if they can all stay healthy.
- KD/Book dropping the points with some help from Ayton
- Ayton grabs the boards
- Chris doesn't even have to score, just distribute.
It's going to be a hard formula to beat if they can all stay healthy.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
ESPN BPI doing a victory lap
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Just inconsistent.
Consistently inconsistent.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Shannon Sharpe seems to have nailed this one. Completely insane to me to grow up in a middle class family, make it big as a pro athlete, start to become one of the most marketable young players in the league, and THEN try to live the thug life. Just stupid risking it all to try to look tough.
They were dangerously close to coming back and winning that game. Jaden just doing what he needs to in order to play with victor.
Jayrod
Footballguy
In the post-game interview that he hadn't spent the night in his own house in 2 weeks until yesterday. I think he was getting worn out from the travel.
the moops
Footballguy
Should have stopped there
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Nets have hit the skids. Awful few games. There is definitely talent there - Bridges and Cam J - but the Spencer/DFS have been lousy. Coach has also been terrible in his rotations - continues to force players like O'Neal, Joe Harris and S Curry who have no future. Ben Simmons is still an absolute anchor although he cant hurt them on he bench. The lack of defense when Bridges/Cam J are very good defensive players has been puzzling. Obviously will take some time to integrate.
Regardless they need to make some moves in the offseason to balance the team out - also this is the last year in a while they will have their 1st rder so not the end of the world to have a better pick.
Rebuild is going to take a bit longer than I thought - no reason they shouldnt be able to make some moves in offseason - they have the assets.
Regardless they need to make some moves in the offseason to balance the team out - also this is the last year in a while they will have their 1st rder so not the end of the world to have a better pick.
Rebuild is going to take a bit longer than I thought - no reason they shouldnt be able to make some moves in offseason - they have the assets.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Boston mostly looked good against the Cavs. They finally have their starting unit back and playing together (JT, JB, Al, Rob, Marcus). They came out in the second half and just thumped CLE with a barrage of threes, great defensive, and coming down with every rebound. Tatum looked way better than he has played lately. They built a 20-point lead and were content to trade baskets. They were still up 15 with 2:15 to go . . . and then almost fell apart. They ended up only winning by 4, and it got dicey by the end. Turnovers galore, Garland making 3 threes, Mitchell getting easy layups and free throws. Boston only made one FG in the last 4 and a half minutes. They still need to work on putting teams away. They got sloppy and complacent.
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