Beef Ravioli Part 2
Footballguy
No respect from the Hornets!
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2022-23 NBA Thread: “you’ll never let me down like the Heat did”, Miami fan says to giant pile of cocaine (5 Viewers)
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identikit
Footballguy
9 points from the best player in the world ain't gonna get it done
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Not a team that needs to be winning these games.
the moops
Footballguy
He has never been a high FTA guys and more and more he spends nearly all his time setting screens and popping out, or just standing in the corner. He doesn't grab any offensive boards either. But agreed, it is a shockingly low number
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I looked at the league player stats. Here are guys with at least 750 minutes played with 20 or fewer free throw attempts.
Terrance Ross 800 / 20 = 40 minutes per attempt
Troy Brown, Jr. 784 / 19 = 41.3 minutes per attempt
Andrew Nembhard 943 / 17 = 55.5 minutes per attempt
P.J. Tucker 1,108 / 12 = 92.3 minutes per attempt
Al Horford 907 / 10 = 90.7 minutes per attempt
Tucker gets to the line less often than Al does.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Start to finish smackdown of New Orleans last night was super fun...JADEN HARDY LETS GO OMG the Mavs outlook is entirely different if that kid last night is who he can be. JaVale looked overall like the guy I expected for the first time this season too, wonder if he'd been injured or something.
If guys are playing well, a playoff rotation of:
Luka
Josh Green
Wood
DFS
Maxi
Hardy
Bullock
McGee
Hardaway
Dinwiddie
Has tons of size, some off the bounce verve, can play defense and rebound. Only challenge is that's 10 guys, and you get some situations where Bertans sniping or Ntilikina hounding a PG are worth it and you can't forget the immortal Dwight Powell. If McGee could play well enough to relegate Powell to the bench that would be reallllllly nice.
If guys are playing well, a playoff rotation of:
Luka
Josh Green
Wood
DFS
Maxi
Hardy
Bullock
McGee
Hardaway
Dinwiddie
Has tons of size, some off the bounce verve, can play defense and rebound. Only challenge is that's 10 guys, and you get some situations where Bertans sniping or Ntilikina hounding a PG are worth it and you can't forget the immortal Dwight Powell. If McGee could play well enough to relegate Powell to the bench that would be reallllllly nice.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Not bad... for us being without our 3 best players
I think if any of them played, we win that one. A W is a W though. Congrats.millertyme1
Footballguy
Thunder lay a beatdown on the Mavs 
SGA
Giddey
Chet
Dort
Jalen Williams
7 2023 1sts
9 2024 1sts
15 2025 1sts
23 2026 1sts
SGA
Giddey
Chet
Dort
Jalen Williams
7 2023 1sts
9 2024 1sts
15 2025 1sts
23 2026 1sts
Instinctive
Footballguy
Saw this game coming a mile away too, to the point of not even watching. No Luka and the Thunder are spunky.Thunder lay a beatdown on the Mavs
SGA
Giddey
Chet
Dort
Jalen Williams
7 2023 1sts
9 2024 1sts
15 2025 1sts
23 2026 1sts
Future looking reaaaaal bright.
Presti might be my new #1 guy to work for ever since R.C. moved to the business side in San Antonio.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Ehh. Everyone's hurt. Dallas missing three of #2-5 too. And you probably see the starters and good guys play more if the game isn't a ~15 point margin the entire second half.Not bad... for us being without our 3 best players
gruecd
Footballguy
Awful. They keep getting boat raced by these bad teams. Starting to wonder if maybe Middleton's constant unavailability is starting to wear thin with these guys. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see what they do with him. Middleton and Giannis are tight, so you've gotta think it starts with Horst having a nice, long talk with Giannis about how he'd like to see this play out...
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Jayrod
Footballguy
So, as I read Celtics articles this season they are constantly touting Jayson Tatum's MVP candidacy for this season.
Even as a Celtics fan and as great of a player as he is, he just isn't there in my opinion. I'd put him at best 4th right now behind Luka, Giannis and Jokic...but it is a distant 4th. Right next to Tatum is KD (but he seems to have suffered a knee sprain and will miss the next couple of weeks). Also, if Embiid or Davis could stay on the court I would rank them above Tatum as their per game numbers are just more efficient and effective than Tatum. I do like him over Ja and Mitchell as well.
My current MVP rankings:
1) Jokic - he's as good as the last two seasons and the team is winning (shocking what having a fairly healthy roster can do)
2) Doncic - statistically he's even with Jokic, but the team record is the tiebreaker here
3) Giannis - probably has some voter fatigue going on with the online rankings, but he's playing nearly as well as his MVP seasons and a far cry better defensively than the 2 above him. I think he is a tier behind them, but it is close.
4) Tatum - his consistency and availability lands him here over some of the guys next and he is obviously a huge factor in the Celtics record
5) KD - he's been on a tear, but the team started out in shambles and he just hurt his knee. Still the most dangerous guy in the league on any given possession.
6) Embiid - He is the most unstoppable player in the league for an entire game. Health has been an issue and the team struggled without Harden. On a per game basis, he is #4.
7) Ja - I'm not as in love with his long term prospects due to his reliance upon his athleticism and recklessness (he's yet to play even 70 games in a season). He is also just not quite there in the advanced stats categories but you cannot deny his impact and the team is winning.
8) Mitchell - offensively, he's as dangerous as anyone in the league and has been the main reason for the Cavs great season to date. Still, this feels like Derozan's season last year where at this point he was getting the MVP buzz and then he and the Bulls regressed as the season wore on.
9) AD - very similar to Embiid, but better defensively and less offensively with a few more missed games. On a per game basis, he is #5. Also the Lakers have a losing record.
10) SGA - statistically he's top 11 in every single advanced stat. The team is bad, but he is an absolute scoring machine.
Next tier - LeBron, Sabonis, Zion
Even as a Celtics fan and as great of a player as he is, he just isn't there in my opinion. I'd put him at best 4th right now behind Luka, Giannis and Jokic...but it is a distant 4th. Right next to Tatum is KD (but he seems to have suffered a knee sprain and will miss the next couple of weeks). Also, if Embiid or Davis could stay on the court I would rank them above Tatum as their per game numbers are just more efficient and effective than Tatum. I do like him over Ja and Mitchell as well.
My current MVP rankings:
1) Jokic - he's as good as the last two seasons and the team is winning (shocking what having a fairly healthy roster can do)
2) Doncic - statistically he's even with Jokic, but the team record is the tiebreaker here
3) Giannis - probably has some voter fatigue going on with the online rankings, but he's playing nearly as well as his MVP seasons and a far cry better defensively than the 2 above him. I think he is a tier behind them, but it is close.
4) Tatum - his consistency and availability lands him here over some of the guys next and he is obviously a huge factor in the Celtics record
5) KD - he's been on a tear, but the team started out in shambles and he just hurt his knee. Still the most dangerous guy in the league on any given possession.
6) Embiid - He is the most unstoppable player in the league for an entire game. Health has been an issue and the team struggled without Harden. On a per game basis, he is #4.
7) Ja - I'm not as in love with his long term prospects due to his reliance upon his athleticism and recklessness (he's yet to play even 70 games in a season). He is also just not quite there in the advanced stats categories but you cannot deny his impact and the team is winning.
8) Mitchell - offensively, he's as dangerous as anyone in the league and has been the main reason for the Cavs great season to date. Still, this feels like Derozan's season last year where at this point he was getting the MVP buzz and then he and the Bulls regressed as the season wore on.
9) AD - very similar to Embiid, but better defensively and less offensively with a few more missed games. On a per game basis, he is #5. Also the Lakers have a losing record.
10) SGA - statistically he's top 11 in every single advanced stat. The team is bad, but he is an absolute scoring machine.
Next tier - LeBron, Sabonis, Zion
Kev4029
Footballguy
I don't know what the betting odds are right now but I think it's turned into a 2-player race. I think there is a fairly clear delineation between Jokic and Doncic then a chasm between Doncic and the field. Here is what BBRef has for their MVP tracker.
If I were voting, I would probably have your top 6 but flip KD and Giannis (his scoring is up but his numbers otherwise are way down and the Bucks just don't feel like a good team right now). After the top 6, I don't think there is anybody that you could even create a halfway reasonable argument that they even belong in the discussion.
Curry not in top 13?
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I could see it if you are factoring in the time he has missed and wonder about future time missed, but then including AD, Lebron and Zion kind of knocks that argument out. He should be somewhere within the top of the second half of the list, I would say.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Tatum's MVP case and candidacy lies entirely on the premise of him being the best player on the best team.
Because he has better teammates, it's harder for him to post crazy numbers like Luka does. The teams in the West have shuffled around a lot, so it would be hard to say there is a clear top team that will run away with the conference.
The Celtics cooled off some, but with Rob Williams back, they have been allowing a lot fewer points. They haven't been anywhere near as good at hitting threes of late, but they are due to have another stretch where those shots start falling again. They have had a bunch of wide-open looks . . . they fell the first half of the year but haven't gone down of late. Wide open looks in the NBA will turn into baskets if you keep getting them.
If the Celtics get back to scoring in the 120's and allow in the low hundreds, they will go back on another big run. But that's the only way Tatum would stand a chance at being MVP. If they ended up with 60 wins and were 10 games better than anyone else, that would really help Tatum's cause. They won 60 games in the 2022 calendar year (across two seasons), so it's not like that would be a crazy win total.
I'm not saying that should get Tatum extra MVP consideration just for being on a team potentially with a lot of wins, but that might get some extra votes from the people that actually vote. He likely plays a lot better defense than Jokic, Doncic, or KD. Overall, I think Tatum has too much ground to catch up to end up as MVP.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Tatum's case is Booker's case last year. In terms of likelihood of success IMO.
the moops
Footballguy
Tatum is averaging 31/8/4 with a TS% of .612
Booker averaged 27/6/6 with a TS% of .585
Tatum is having a much better year this year than Booker did last year
Instinctive
Footballguy
Sure. But his case is "best player on best team record, with great stats that aren't as good as a couple guys ahead of him, and he's got great support with another all star"
Moe.
Footballguy
Durant is probably out of the race with the injury but his defense can’t be ignored this year. He has a legit all-defense case. If he can get back in 3 weeks and the Nets finish towards the top of the East and he is around 70 games played I think he’ll win. Voter fatigue with Jokic and people know Luka will get one eventually anyways.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Tatum is a superior defensive player to Booker and a more consistent scorer. Booker was never strongly considered last season, yet Tatum is getting some legit buzz. I don't think Tatum is as good as Jokic or Doncic, but this season he is a good notch above where Booker was last year.
I know we have 5 guys currently doing it, but averaging 30+ppg for a season is no joke. Most seasons only 1 or 2 guys pull that off.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Yes, glaring omission. He didn't show up on the lists are started with. He would be right there with the "next tier".
the moops
Footballguy
Steph has played in 27 games this year. AD has played in 25. If you are gonna put Anthony Davis top 10 this year then there is zero reason to not also have Steph
Kev4029
Footballguy
This was November 24th. At the time, Phoenix was 11-6, Denver was 11-7, New Orleans was 11-7, and Memphis was 10-8.
Phoenix is now 21-22, Denver and Memphis are 28-13, and New Orleans is 25-17. Since I said one or two teams were about to go on a run, Denver is 17-6 and Memphis is 18-5 and are 3.5 games up on the rest of the conference. Unless the Clippers or Warriors really turn it around, it kind of feels like it'll be a cakewalk to the conference finals for both Memphis and Denver.
Instinctive
Footballguy
There's a little more to it than that, like all things. For example, Dallas kind of owns Memphis. Since Ja and Luka were both on the teams, Dallas is 8-3 against the Grizzlies (multiple road wins, only one road loss).
Similarly, Dallas has gone 2-1 vs the Nuggets every year in the same timeframe, 6-3 overall. This one is a bit misleading, IMO, because a full Nuggets team seems set up to absolutely demolish Dallas, and multiple of those games to my memory were without Jokic, which isn't really a useful check.
I also think a healthy New Orleans puts up a fight against them, so I'd add that to your Warriors/Clippers note. And there's always technically the possibility of a Phoenix revival with Booker and Paul health returning before the playoffs. I think that's not super likely.
Actual point being: I think there's a lot of interesting matchup stuff coming our way, and then added health questions that could play out a bunch of different ways (Dallas, Phoenix, NO, and GS all having major health challenges this past couple weeks or more). Heck, if LeBron and AD are both full health, MVP-level AD was looking mighty scary. The only Western team I think I'd take blind right now is Denver.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Lukaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I used to think that Tatum whined to the refs a lot (watching on TV). When I went in person the other night, he was WAYYYYY worse than that. He might as well have had a ref on a leash the entire game. Every possession. Every trip up and down the court (during live action). Every dead ball, timeout, or between quarters (whether he was in the game or not). He never shut up, and he brought up multiple non-calls (or calls that he got stuck with as offensive fouls).
You could see him rehashing the plays. He literally spent an entire timeout at midcourt pleading his case (and skipped the team huddle). I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THIS BAD. Since most of this jabbering happens away from the ball or in TV timeouts, you don't really get the big picture of what's really going on. It's no wonder he gets T'd up all the time. I really don't get it when you are up big with a couple of minutes left in the game. Just zip it. Maybe if he just kept his mouth shut more. then maybe he'd get more calls.
You could see him rehashing the plays. He literally spent an entire timeout at midcourt pleading his case (and skipped the team huddle). I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THIS BAD. Since most of this jabbering happens away from the ball or in TV timeouts, you don't really get the big picture of what's really going on. It's no wonder he gets T'd up all the time. I really don't get it when you are up big with a couple of minutes left in the game. Just zip it. Maybe if he just kept his mouth shut more. then maybe he'd get more calls.
gruecd
Footballguy
See @SteelCurtain , I'm not the only one who feels this way...
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Nice! Congrats, good game. I wasn't able to pay close attention bc I was teaching my son Algebra II
but I did have it on and glanced up when I could. We fought back to within 1 in the 3rd, maybe even took the lead around then? Then JB took over. C's have so many weapons! I want to see our full squad vs C's full squad.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The Pels got it within 2 points (72-70) in the third before Boston closed things out (53-44 the rest of the way). The Celtics rotation is generally set up that Tatum and Brown don't play a ton of minutes together. They start together and end together, but half of the game one is resting while the other one plays. That way, both guys have a lot left in the tank at the end of games when they put the starters back in to close out the game.Nice! Congrats, good game. I wasn't able to pay close attention bc I was teaching my son Algebra II
The same thing happened last night. The Nets were up two in the last few seconds of the third, the starters (with Rob Williams) came back in for Boston, and they ended up winning by 11. With both guys healthy, Tatum and Brown each take a stint with the B team, which so far has been effective. In person, the way they whip the ball around, it's a wonder teams can defend them at all (or aren't exhausted by the end of games).
At least in the regular season, it appears that the Celtics can turn the switch on to play smothering defense or get teams into half court sets. They still are great in slowed down, half court games (more like playoff basketball), and when they don't turn the ball over, they can go on huge runs and swing a game by 20 points in a few minutes. It remains to be seen if they can do that in the post season, if they start managing minutes to keep guys fresh for the playoffs, and then can hold onto the basketball in pressure situations (that's what killed them last year).
The one thing I think will be an issue is their late game strategy a lot of times is iso ball with either Brown or Tatum. Tatum will dance around behind the three-point line for 10 seconds and settle for a heave as the shot clock expires. Those generally don't go in a lot. Brown will do something similar, but his pressure threes tend to go in more . . . and he will also make a move to get a mid-range fadeaway, and those go in a lot. Third choice down the stretch is kicking the ball out to Smart for lightly contested threes, and Smart usually makes all of them or none of them.
Still too soon to tell if the C's are regular season champions and paper tigers . . . or if they can mentally navigate through the post-season and win a chip this year. They certainly have the talent, but who knows if they are hardened and resolute enough to win 4 tough series.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
The Celtics also have Grant Williams with 5, Marcus Smart with 4 and Jaylen Brown with 2.
For reference:
Warriors have Draymond 12, Poole 8 and 3 guys with 4 each (Curry, Thompson & Kuminga).
Grizzlies have Brooks 12, Ja 7, JJJ 5, Adams & Aldama with 2 each.
But who's counting?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I know he's had some called that were later reversed / not counted against the running total. He had 14 last year in the regular season (10th most). He ranked 12th in the league in 2020 with 10. Whether he gets T'd up or not, my bigger question / concern would be whether his complaining actually gets him FEWER foul calls instead of more.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Watching last nights game (first full game I've watched in weeks), this is what I kept thinking. Tatum was inefficient but other guys produced all game long. Brogdon, White, TimeLord, Grant Williams, and Smart all made great plays multiple times with contributions on both ends of the floor and they dominated the Nets on the boards 48-31.Nice! Congrats, good game. I wasn't able to pay close attention bc I was teaching my son Algebra II
Neither Horford or Brown were playing due to minor injuries (although JB may miss 2 weeks).
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
If we are putting guys from teams with mediocre records in contention for MVP- I think that not putting Shai in the top 5-7 is criminal, and frankly Markannen probably deserves to be ranked ahead of Anthony Davis imo
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Here are the current / updated MVP rankings from Basketball Reference:
01 - Jokic - 55.7%
02 - Doncic - 19.5%
03 - Embiid - 7.5%
04 - Tatum - 4.1%
05 - Durant - 3.8%
06 - Antetokounmpo - 3.5%
07 - Sabonis - 2.4%
08 - Morant - 1.5%
09 - Mitchell - 1.3%
10 - Haliburton - 0.7%
01 - Jokic - 55.7%
02 - Doncic - 19.5%
03 - Embiid - 7.5%
04 - Tatum - 4.1%
05 - Durant - 3.8%
06 - Antetokounmpo - 3.5%
07 - Sabonis - 2.4%
08 - Morant - 1.5%
09 - Mitchell - 1.3%
10 - Haliburton - 0.7%
Jayrod
Footballguy
Sabonis surprises me. I know the Kings are doing well and he is a big part, just never saw him as a guy that would ever even get a sniff at an MVP.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Jokic would be the first player to win MVP 3 in a row since Bird 
Major
Footballguy
I'd give it to Luka this year. Amazing how he single handedly keeps that team relevant.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
No way should Sabonis or Haliburton (who I am a big fan of and have a ton of his rookie cards
) be above Zion in these rankings, injury or not. Just MHO.Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Which is absurd on many levels.Jokic would be the first player to win MVP 3 in a row since Bird
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Claimed - Gone
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Kev4029
Footballguy
Hot take - Jokic is the third best regular season player drafted since the merger. He's obviously getting the respect he deserves from an awards standpoint, but I don't think everybody is on board with how absolutely transcendent he is. Not only is he the best passer in the NBA (which I think has become popular opinion) but he may well be the best scorer in the NBA. He has exactly one game this year with a shooting percentage less than 50%. He has twice as many games where he didn't miss a shot or a free throw.Which is absurd on many levels.Jokic would be the first player to win MVP 3 in a row since Bird
Jordan and Lebron should have won at least three in a row, but that is no reason to dock Jokic. Lebron should have absolutely won the Derrick Rose MVP season - he was far and away the best player from 08-09 to 12-13 and that might have been the best 5 year regular season run for any player ever. Jordan's stretch from 86-87 until he retired the first time (92-93) was incredible and he should have won the Barkley MVP year to get him three in a row. I don't think anybody else since Bird deserved three straight MVPs.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Let’s see if Jokic can overcome his defensive shortcomings in the playoffs this year. He’s very clearly a great player — but PER is just one metric. I’m hard pressed to believe Jokic is the best player of the past 40 years other than MJ and LeBron.
Kev4029
Footballguy
You're twisting my words a bit, but it's clear that some people will never buy in and pooping out all the advanced stats and eye test stuff is never going to win anybody over BUT here are some all time ranks:
- #2 all time in BPM (this only counts 73-74 to present). Top 5 are Jordan, Jokic, James, Magic, David Robinson.
- #4 all time in WS/48. Top 5 are Jordan, Robinson, Wilt, Jokic, and Neil Johnston. There is some wonky stuff from the pre-merger days (Johnston).
- #2 in PER - Top 5 are Jordan, Jokic, James, Anthony Davis and Shaq.
- #4 all time in TS% and the only one in the top 5 that could score outside of the paint (Gobert, DeAndre Jordan, Cedric Maxwell, Tyson Chandler).
His defense in the playoffs has been (mostly) fairly been called out. In 2022 Jordan Poole looking like an all-NBA player for 5 games was frustrating. In 2021 Chris Paul has quite literally the best playoff series of his career (25.5/5.0/10.3 on .627/.750/1.000 shooting splits). In 2020 Mitchell scored 57, 51, and 44 in their series. At the same time, the players guarding those guys were fringe NBA talents - guys like PJ Dozer (hardly played in the NBA since), Troy Daniels (never played in the NBA again), Facundo Campazzo (now out of the NBA), Bryn Forbes (in his last season in the NBA this year, I suspect), Austin Rivers (he didn't play in the NBA in 20-21 until they picked him up with like 10 games left), Torrey Craig (who I actually like but is really bad getting skinny around screens and is now nearly exclusively a PF), and Markus Howard (true story - he played over 100 minutes in the playoffs two seasons ago - not currently in the NBA).
If they get blitzed in the playoffs defensively again this season with guys like KCP, Gordon, Brown, and Braun, it's fair to **** on Jokic's defense.
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