msudaisy26
Footballguy
Due to the luxury tax the Warriors will save 131 million dollars over the next 2 years by trading Wiseman. Wow
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2022-23 NBA Thread: “you’ll never let me down like the Heat did”, Miami fan says to giant pile of cocaine (1 Viewer)
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
That is getting paid 26.2 million to take 5 second round picks. Bonus!!!
GordonGekko
Footballguy
I'm hearing from the media optics side, one of the drivers for the potential for Bob Myers to leave the GSW is that many people in the organization want Kirk Lacob out of the front office period. Except that's not likely to happen as his father is the owner. Kent Lacob is also seen as incompetent.
Kirk Lacob wanted Wiseman while Myers wanted LaMelo Ball or to trade back and take a different player ( his short list was Haliburton, Bey and Maxey) Kerr sided with Myers.
Apparently Lacob overruled his entire front office otherwise ( as is his right, technically, as owner) to side with his son.
So Kerr apparently wanted to keep Saddiq Bey, but Lacob ordered a pure flush against the luxury tax, because it's not just Wiseman's salary alone that's the problem, it's converting the RSE slotting into another functional salary. Lacob lost A LOT of money on Kelly Oubre, who moved the needle exactly zero, so that part of the legacy issue is also in play here.
Bey could help this team. But this is a pure money dump. 2nd rounders, as stated before, are required to get no actual guaranteed money.
Myers could probably find a little value in 2nd rounders, but Kirk Lacob?
Another amazing get for Troy Weaver in Detroit. This is a huge addition, as Wiseman has cheat code athleticism. Plus a lot of his development growth pains were eaten by the Warriors. Much like the 76ers got nothing out of Nerlens Noel, but that heavy early investment and coaching ended up paying off for the Thunder instead.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I wonder if Steph's injury also precipitated the Wiseman move. It will make it really hard to get a decent seed and unclear what the team can really do in the playoffs. If they knew they had Steph at full strength, maybe it would be worth paying whatever it took. But now, not so much.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Definitely a better fit for what the Sixers are trying to do. They basically have phased Thybulle out. McDaniels is solid and has good length.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Lakers did a heck of job trading. Doubt they're contenders but they couldn't have expected much more with limited resources
Suns deal Saric to OKC for Bazley. Really havent seen much of Bazley outside of needing to add mass when seeing him the last couple years.
Suns deal Saric to OKC for Bazley. Really havent seen much of Bazley outside of needing to add mass when seeing him the last couple years.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
of course now that they took on gpII, Nevermind…
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Apparently only two teams didn’t make a move this deadline period: Cavs and Bulls.
identikit
Footballguy
Wild times
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Why do people say Portland's done nothing to surround Lillard with talent over the years?
Like what world have you been living in?
Like what world have you been living in?
identikit
Footballguy
Love seeing GPII back with Golden State
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I lol’d
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
All kinds of second round picks flying everywhere.
General Malaise
Footballguy
What? Who have they surrounded him with? Talent doesn't come to Portland. It just doesn't. Talent doesn't want to live here.
General Malaise
Footballguy
I mean, since 2015, Lillard has played with ZERO other All-Stars.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
They have continually done a lot to try to be as good as they can be, but I agree that they have never surrounded him with championship-level talent.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Don't sell yourself short GB
General Malaise
Footballguy
Because they CAN'T! I've lost count the number of times I've screamed this in here. Talent. Won't. Come. To. Portland. Ever. Not ever. Not in my lifetime. Not in my kids' lifetimes. Not in any lifetime will this podunk little town nowhere near another major city attract the top NBA talent.
General Malaise
Footballguy
I'd be a vast improvement over some of the guys Dame has had to work with. They just traded for a guy who averages 2.7 points a game and we're supposed to have some sort of enthused reaction to it? Just ship the team over to Seattle. This town doesn't deserve an NBA franchise.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
it does seem a little odd that portland got rid of gary payton and josh hart and replaced them with thybulle and cam reddish.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There are multiple cities that can't draw top free agent talent. I'm just outside of Boston. For decades, the Celtics have either drafted or traded for players. They traded for Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Ray Allen, KG, Kyrie, Kemba, Isaiah Thomas, etc. Their only notable free agent signings essentially boil down to Gordon Hayward and Al Horford. Dame would probably love to have those two, but very fewer players want to come to Boston.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
The Lakers roster isn't a complete misguided disaster now. Like, it's not AD, Lebron and the 70,000 dwarves. Weird.
OUT: Westbrook, Beverley, Nunn, JTA, Bryant, 1st round pick, 4 2nd round picks
IN: D'Lo, Beasely, Vanderbilt, Bamba, Rui, 3 2nd round picks
And from what I've read, they improved their luxury tax situation in the process.
OUT: Westbrook, Beverley, Nunn, JTA, Bryant, 1st round pick, 4 2nd round picks
IN: D'Lo, Beasely, Vanderbilt, Bamba, Rui, 3 2nd round picks
And from what I've read, they improved their luxury tax situation in the process.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Exactly. I think that's a given with my comment. No FA of superstar caliber is gonna flock to Portland.
But there's been enough talent brought in at this point and nothing to show for it. Drives me nuts to hear people say theres not been talent around him. They've even tried to build around his deficiency that he's allergic to playing on the defensive end.
Name one player Lillard's made better? There isn't one.
I give credit to both sides for their commitment to one another
I just don't think they're going anywhere with Dame heading things 
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Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
According to Kelly Iko of The Athletic, the Rockets plan to waive John Wall.
This is a surprise to absolutely no one, given how Wall's first stint in Houston went. Maybe he can garner some interest in the buyout market after he becomes a free agent, but fantasy managers can't bank on that. Wall should already be on the waiver wire in all leagues.Can't say I've seen him play this season but he and Westbrook should be in demand on buyout market.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
They did a heckuva lot better than I ever thought they'd do. They got to play Bron/AD at four/five so I question the real impact Bamba/Vanderbilt have but they got some shooting improvement
Chemical X
Footballguy
knicks traded a 1 for reddish, who thibs wouldn’t play, now they deal reddish and a 1 for hart, who i assume thibs won’t play.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Not shocking
- A small number of teams have essentially hoarded a ton of future FRPs. Add that to the Stepien Rule and lots of teams were severely limited in trading their picks
- 2nd round picks require no guaranteed money and are not bound by the Stepien Rule, and can be attractive to teams who are pressed up against the cap or into the tax zones.
- Elite level youth basketball has changed. Coaching at that level has changed. More young players are playing against better competition sooner and are being coached better into falling into functional roles at the NBA level. The majority still don't pan out, but the "feeder" system has been much improved over time. The odds of finding a solid player in the deep end of the pool is much better now, relatively, than ever before.
- Advent of the Jumbo Wing and the Small Ball Pivot means less dependency on the traditional big man anchoring a team's championship hopes. This is why so many teams were so desperate for Dwight Howard and his ugly exit from Orlando. You can find rim runners and rim protectors even in some stages of UDFA now, which changes the dynamic of the entire draft process.
- Older stalwart GMs were phased out over time, now you've got younger more dynamic type mindsets. All franchises now have analytics departments and fully individualized cap specialists. There are fewer nimrods like Vlade Divac and Zeke Thomas to make bad trade after bad trade to bail out other GMs. The bar has been raised for front office production and talent.
- Post "The Decision", the league salary system has been built to try to prevent what happened in Miami from ever happening again. You are exponentially rewarded for drafting your own guys and keeping your own players. Of course when the Warriors got a little too good at it, the other owners wanted to change the rules to punish them for their success. The loss of the older version of the "Mid Level Exception" was huge in how FRP's changed in valuation.
Ainge had to create a consolidation package of those players because they were all flawed in many ways as potentially helpful pieces for other teams. It doesn't help that Ainge wants to raid the cookie jar from each and every team around him relentlessly. If Vanderbilt could space the floor on offense, he wouldn't have hung around for so long. If Beasley was a higher BBIQ player with better defense, he'd have been traded already. Conley can still be useful, but is not a seamless fit, and his buyout next year is 14 million, so essentially he's not an expiring and he's not a good long term bet at the same time.
You have to look at the individual situation of the GM in place. Presti has job security. So he can bet on the long haul a little more. Someone like Pelinka however is on a short rope and will be more prone to make bad moves that help in the short term but are lethal to the team long term. But why should he care? He'll be fired anyway at some point. Trading off a 2027 pick for a GM doesn't seem like such a big deal because odds are, they will be ousted before then, and then that loss of asset is someone else's problem. Andy Reid did this in his last few years in Philly. He knew he was on a short rope, so if he purged future assets and future cap hell, why would he care?
Someone desperate to save their job is how you get Otis Smith making a bunch of boneheaded deals to try to appease Dwight Howard into staying with the Magic. Or Phil Jackson giving a broken down Joaquin Noah a big four year deal that no other team would think about doing.
Major
Footballguy
True, just 5 2nd round picks instead. Is this a new thing?
General Malaise
Footballguy
He was out a lonnnnng time and kept missing timelines on when he was supposed to return. He was evasive and didn't discuss itz neither did the Blazers but it was implied GPII was not embraced by teammates.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Exactly. I think that's a given with my comment. No FA of superstar caliber is gonna flock to Portland.
But there's been enough talent brought in at this point and nothing to show for it. Drives me nuts to hear people say theres not been talent around him. They've even tried to build around his deficiency that he's allergic to playing on the defensive end.
Name one player Lillard's made better? There isn't one.
I give credit to both sides for their commitment to one another
Who do you think is the best player Portland has brought in to help Dame? Give me a few examples of you can.
No disagreement that he has not made other players better, though Nurk was a nobody until he played with Dame.
Nobody in this state thinks Portland is going anywhere with just Dame heading things. We're not dumb here. We read books and are proud of our bookstores for cripes sake.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
2nd round picks took a different kind of valuation with the expansion of the Two Way Contracts system. The concern from the ownership side and the NBPA is that too many players would accrue service time and vest a league pension, and thus also vest the long term medical coverage implied. This dilutes the total "pie" of revenue going to players who are actually helping to generate ratings, fan interest, shoes sales, merchandise sales and ticket sales.
The DVME ( i.e. the "veteran's minimum" ) was designed to encourage teams to sign already likely vested veterans, instead of signing a non FRP rookie instead. What's the difference between paying one pension versus two pensions? One medical package versus two medical packages? Do it enough, across the entire league over time, and it all adds up.
The value of a late 2nd round pick is you can take a "Draft And Stash" that operates one of three ways
1) It maintains a good relationship with a specific agent or representation banner. That agent can market himself better to recruits by discussing the number of guys he's gotten drafted. Especially the non elite type guys.
2) It creates inroads into the foreign market for potential players. If one of your guys is on a team with the next Doncic, that's a huge scouting boon for you. A huge relationship building boon for you. The Mavericks had some leg work on Doncic ahead of other teams based on the long term legacy relationships created by Don Nelson Sr for decades in professional basketball.
3) It allows you to funnel an "asset" to make a trade legal under the CBA without giving up anything tangible. You can only send a player/rights, a draft pick or cash. Each team is given a small cash allotment each season to either add into a trade to make the salary equalization work or buy out a foreign contract or to purchase a 2nd round pick. Sending a player already rostered can be complicated if guaranteed money is involved. There are only so many picks or conditional picks you can move for smaller deals. "Draft Rights" to some draft and stash is just simpler for many of these volume back of the roster trades.
A 2nd round pick can be a good or a bad thing in different circumstances. Since 2nd rounders are not locked into guaranteed money of any kind, they also don't fall under any "exception" principles. For a tax paying team, that means they need to split up their Taxpayer Mid Level Exception into smaller chunks, some in part, to pay said 2nd rounder. Add in the Gilbert Arenas Rule and if you have a 2nd rounder make a huge breakout, then it's very hard to keep them long term for that tax paying team.
James Wiseman is proof of how the RSE slotting can go very wrong and very fast for a luxury tax paying/repeater tax paying team.
Year 1 - 8.7
Year 2 - 9.2
Year 3 - 9.6
Year 4 - 12.1
The "exception" exists because the league does not want to force franchises to trade off high draft picks simply because they are too cap locked to formally pay them with functional salary compliance.
However the 4.5x multiplier for the luxury tax still takes old. The RSE slotting is a "cap exception" , it is NOT a tax exception nor a cash exception
That means for each dollar the Warriors would pay Wiseman, under the repeater formula, they'd have to pay 4.5 on top of that in tax.
Tyrese Maxey was the 21st overall pick in his draft, the same year as Wiseman, and a far better player, his slotting is 2.7 this year and 4.3 next year. Can you see the massive difference in the tax bill now?
Now if Maxey fell into the 2nd round, Philly would have likely lost him after this season. They would not have 2 guaranteed years, plus two option years plus a qualifying offer year.
If a guy breaks out, you want him to be a late first rounder. If he bombs, you want him to be a 2nd rounder and not a first rounder of any kind. It's just insanely hard to find a Desmond Bane or a Maxey or a Quickley in most drafts. This is why Bob Myers wanted to trade back from the 2nd overall, pick up a player and trade back again. This is also why lots of people in the GSW organization want Kirk Lacob out. This is basic asset management and the Golden Lacob Child doesn't understand any of it.
Saying a 2nd rounder has value or no value is removing all the practical context. A 2nd round pick from 50-60 is usually less valuable than just getting the guy in UDFA. The picks from 31-35 can be insanely valuable. But if you have a great analytics department, then picks 25-30 can be the highest value potential asset on the board. This is why the Grizzlies try very hard to trade into the late late first round for a player they really like. Santi Aldama might not work out as they hope, but the asset management strategy isn't bad. Five cost controlled years if the player pans out as a slotting not much over a high 2nd rounder's general compensation once you split the Tax Payer or Non Taxpayer MLE.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Dolan needs to sell the team.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Probably Lamarcus AldridgeExactly. I think that's a given with my comment. No FA of superstar caliber is gonna flock to Portland.
But there's been enough talent brought in at this point and nothing to show for it. Drives me nuts to hear people say theres not been talent around him. They've even tried to build around his deficiency that he's allergic to playing on the defensive end.
Name one player Lillard's made better? There isn't one.
I give credit to both sides for their commitment to one another
Who do you think is the best player Portland has brought in to help Dame? Give me a few examples of you can.
No disagreement that he has not made other players better, though Nurk was a nobody until he played with Dame.
Nobody in this state thinks Portland is going anywhere with just Dame heading things. We're not dumb here. We read books and are proud of our bookstores for cripes sake.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Suns targeting Reggie Jackson on buyout market if he hits.
Suns acquired Bazley to pair with Torrey Craig to put on the oppositions best perimeter player / the defensive role Bridges had.
Suns acquired Bazley to pair with Torrey Craig to put on the oppositions best perimeter player / the defensive role Bridges had.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
The Knicks front office power structure is split in half.
Brock Aller acquires the assets. Leon Rose spends them.
Aller runs the NY analytics department. So he has deep ties to all the other stat heads around the league. Every franchise's analytics department serves as a "hard vetting" process for any potential move. You can dream up whatever trade you want as a GM, but if the analytics guys says the money won't add up, or the numbers don't add up right, then there's not much you can do. Since Aller joined the team, the Knicks have traded back and kept trading back again and again, trying to "split assets" into volume. Which is the correct resource management decision. What is the big difference between a player picked at 17 or 18 versus one picked at 25? It's not a dramatic difference.
Rose however is the "brand name" and has a long standing relationship with James Dolan through CAA.
This is why you see moves that make no sense. Obi Toppin cannot defend the rim and can't create his own shot and can't really space the floor. He's an older player to boot. He's an open liability on defense and doesn't really give you the upside of a pure "energy bench guy" you can find in the 2nd round or UDFA. But Rose's son was Toppin's agent. So instead of taking Haliburton or Vassell, both appropriate valued for the range of that draft slot back then, which made more roster sense, then the bone headed decision was made.
Signing Fournier was a Rose move. Trading back again and again and converting the pick that became Robinson Earl into two early 2nds was all Aller.
Dolan is just plain stupid. Just give Aller control of the entire franchise then get out of his way. You want a young dynamic GM, not a former power agent with a history of old grudges and an old school way of thinking about how to win in the NBA.
Same mistake as Phil Jackson and Zeke Thomas. Brand names. Not trained for this kind of job. Now former agents sometimes work out as GMs. At least with Rose, his entire history of relationship building came with him. At least that could be some advantage. But why pick Phil Jackson when Troy Weaver was on a short list for a very very long time for a GM slot?
It's not complicated. Hire someone actually trained for the job and coming from an organization that has had deep success on some level.
So yes, the Toppin pick was insane on all levels. A zero defender rookie being sent to play for a hard nosed defensive first/defense always kind of coach. Or paying a first round pick for Reddish, a low IQ undisciplined player, exactly the kind of player that Thibs hates. You can't pick a specific kind of coach and keep sending him players that have no pathway to fit what that coach has shown he likes to do and tends to do with his roster.
Hire someone trained to do the job and has shown they can do that good job somewhere else. How innovative is that? For example, my companies have their own internal legal department. At times, I need to hire good lawyers. So why would I hire a guy like Capella? ( Maybe Leon Rose is not a great comparison, how about hiring Dana Bible to run a modern NFL offense? That's a better fit. Hiring Capella would be like hiring Dana Bible and expect him to produce like Norv Turner ) Doing that is setting money on fire. Dolan hiring Leon Rose over Aller was setting money on fire.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
I'm hyped about the Warriors getting back GP2. He's much needed to shore up the defense. Let's go!!
Definitely sold low on Wiseman, but the dude doesn't have any fight. Can't understand how a 7 footer with his athletic ability couldn't get more rebounds. I still think he could be serviceable and the Dubs could've used his size and ability in spurts, but they could find something comparable with a vet minimum.
Definitely sold low on Wiseman, but the dude doesn't have any fight. Can't understand how a 7 footer with his athletic ability couldn't get more rebounds. I still think he could be serviceable and the Dubs could've used his size and ability in spurts, but they could find something comparable with a vet minimum.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Nice summary by team, though author admits maybe not perfect
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Yeah, they only had two of the best free agents sign there a couple of years ago when they weren't that good and all the buyout candidates were taking less to go there.
mr. furley
Footballguy
Bucks offloaded Nwora, Hill and Ibaka + 5 second-round picks for Jae Crowder
incredible
incredible
Insomniac
Footballguy
I'm a Knicks hater but I don't understand why they can't get top FAs. A player who led them to even 1 title would make huge $ off it for the rest of his life.
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