2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread: Message board poster furiously types out one more horrible post before thread closes (5 Viewers)

[Anarchy99]

You cant be comparing Shai’s success to Tatum’s success in regard to the accomplishments of the team. For much of the time that Shai has been in OKC, the team and organizations strategy was to tank in order to rebuild for the future. His ability and desire to win was handcuffed by the organizations desire to lose. We are just finally starting to see the potential of how “winning” a player that SGA can be. For Tatum, a large portion of his career so far has been centered around playing with immense talent for a contending team where the motivation of the organization is to win. Over the past several seasons, the motivation and trajectories of the Thunder and Celtics have been wildly different. Until recently, Shai has been in an environment where losing was the plan. Tatum has been playing in an environment where winning has been the design for a lot of his career. Both are great players- so please don’t interpret this as me throwing shade on either.

Not all situations or comparisons are equal (or really relate much to each other). My overall point was, it's rare that players 25 or younger win a title. The huge majority of the time, it takes a while for star players to start winning in the post-season. Obviously, each team starts with a different roster, has a different philosophy, tries hard to win or not to win, etc.

As far as Tatum goes, he's played in a lot more playoff games than the usual 25-year-old (or if people prefer years played over age, a player with 6 years in the league). Put another way, for current players, Boston has 3 of the Top 25 in terms of playoff experience (Horford #3 with 167 games, Brown #19 at 105 games, and Tatum at #23 with 94 games). IMO, there is no substitute for experience in the playoffs . . . even if those players didn't end up winning a title.

Even though OKC and BOS took different paths to get where we are now, Tatum having played 94 post season games is likely a valuable asset compared to SGA's 13 games of post-season experience. Again, I'm not comparing the players abilities or the teams here . . . just the level of post season experience. Looking only across this upcoming post season, that likely helps Tatum and hurts SGA. Things may not play out that way, and certainly the more OKC plays together and goes on playoff runs, SGA will be more hardened / seasoned in playoff basketball.

But I still think Boston playing a ton of playoff basketball in recent years is worth a lot . . . and that experience will help them more than the label of chokers that many people have anointed them with. We can revisit all this in June when we know the outcome to the season.

 

[Kev4029]

Christian Braun had one of the best in-game dunks of the year (the best?) last night.

Good dunk. Wouldn’t make a top 10 list for best in game dunks this year unless we only consider white guys.

High level of difficulty - going up against the best rim protector in the league, who was also in good position, took off left foot/right hand, switched to left hand and contorted his body mid-jump a bit to get around Gobert.

 

[Instinctive]

Christian Braun had one of the best in-game dunks of the year (the best?) last night.

Good dunk. Wouldn’t make a top 10 list for best in game dunks this year unless we only consider white guys.

High level of difficulty - going up against the best rim protector in the league, who was also in good position, took off left foot/right hand, switched to left hand and contorted his body mid-jump a bit to get around Gobert.

Technical proficiency vs visual appeal i think is what we're getting at here

 

[GroveDiesel]

Should Jalen Brunson be considered for MVP?

 

[Yo Mama]

The 4 play-in teams are set in the west though, just not the seeds, right? Philly, Indy, and Miami are still fighting for the 6, correct?

No. CLE-IND-ORL-PHI-MIA can all avoid the play in in the East. Two of those will end up in the 7 and 8 slots. NOS-PHO-SAC-GSW-LAL could all end up as the 6 in the West still (the other 4 will be in the play in).

I don't think that GS and LAL can be the 6 after the Pels win last night.

Yea, I thought the Lakers were locked into 9 or 10 now.

I think Lakers can still get the 8th spot with lots of help.

 

[Yo Mama]

The 4 play-in teams are set in the west though, just not the seeds, right? Philly, Indy, and Miami are still fighting for the 6, correct?

No. CLE-IND-ORL-PHI-MIA can all avoid the play in in the East. Two of those will end up in the 7 and 8 slots. NOS-PHO-SAC-GSW-LAL could all end up as the 6 in the West still (the other 4 will be in the play in).

I don't think that GS and LAL can be the 6 after the Pels win last night.

Yea, I thought the Lakers were locked into 9 or 10 now.

Maybe they tanked so they could raise a Play-In Tournament Champion banner to go next to the In-Season Tournament Champion one.

LeBron Lakers are UNDEFEATED in single game elimination matches (play-in and IST)!!!

 

[Anarchy99]

I think Lakers can still get the 8th spot with lots of help.

Lakers play in probabilities . . .

7 - 3.0%
8 - 5.6%
9 - 21.8%
10 - 69.7%

 

[thecatch]

For those interested in Bronny's NBA scouting report, Vecenie wrote an in depth piece for the Athletic.

 

[Instinctive]

Should Jalen Brunson be considered for MVP?

Sure. Somewhere between 5th and 7th.

Jokic



Luka

Shai

Giannis
Tatum
Brunson
Ant
Davis

I'm probably missing some but that's roughly my view.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Tatum has another playoff collapse.

This is the part that gets so much consideration and discussion that I really don't fully understand. This is Tatum's age 25 season. He and Boston get labelled as chockers and collapsers. He's essentially the same age as SGA. Tatum has played in 94 playoff games. SGA has played in 13. (To be clear, for any of this, I am not suggesting that Tatum is as good as any of these players listed, only that this is the early playoff history of the other guys).

Tatum has made the Finals once and the ECF in three other seasons. Here's how other players have fared through their Age 25 season (and again, I admit that the Celtics likely had better rosters most seasons than these other guys had).

Tatum - 1 Finals, 3 ECF

Jokic - 1 WCF
Jordan - 1 WCF
Shaq - 1 Finals
Lebron - 1 Finals, 1 ECF
Harden - 1 Finals, 1 WCF
Duncan - 1 Title, 1 WCF
Wade - 1 Title, 1 ECF
Durant - 1 Finals, 2 WCF
Kawhi - 1 Title, 1 Finals, 2 WCF
Kobe - 3 Titles, 1 Finals, 1 WCF

Others
Curry - None
Giannis - None
Paul - None
Dirk - None
Garnett - None
Butler - None

Basically, Tatum and the Celtics have advanced farther than most guys on that list and / or had multiple seasons getting to at least the conference finals. Did these other current or future HOFers choke early in their careers? Most of them didn't win a championship in those years . . . were they collapsers? Tatum had multiple years where BOS made a run, so we should look at that NEGATIVELY? To me, that seems . . . odd. Like everything else, we can revisit the Celtics collapsing narrative at some point in the future.

You cant be comparing Shai’s success to Tatum’s success in regard to the accomplishments of the team. For much of the time that Shai has been in OKC, the team and organizations strategy was to tank in order to rebuild for the future. His ability and desire to win was handcuffed by the organizations desire to lose. We are just finally starting to see the potential of how “winning” a player that SGA can be. For Tatum, a large portion of his career so far has been centered around playing with immense talent for a contending team where the motivation of the organization is to win. Over the past several seasons, the motivation and trajectories of the Thunder and Celtics have been wildly different. Until recently, Shai has been in an environment where losing was the plan. Tatum has been playing in an environment where winning has been the design for a lot of his career. Both are great players- so please don’t interpret this as me throwing shade on either.

Of course you can compare the two, as you've just done.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Tatum has another playoff collapse.

This is the part that gets so much consideration and discussion that I really don't fully understand. This is Tatum's age 25 season. He and Boston get labelled as chockers and collapsers. He's essentially the same age as SGA. Tatum has played in 94 playoff games. SGA has played in 13. (To be clear, for any of this, I am not suggesting that Tatum is as good as any of these players listed, only that this is the early playoff history of the other guys).

Tatum has made the Finals once and the ECF in three other seasons. Here's how other players have fared through their Age 25 season (and again, I admit that the Celtics likely had better rosters most seasons than these other guys had).

Tatum - 1 Finals, 3 ECF

Jokic - 1 WCF
Jordan - 1 WCF
Shaq - 1 Finals
Lebron - 1 Finals, 1 ECF
Harden - 1 Finals, 1 WCF
Duncan - 1 Title, 1 WCF
Wade - 1 Title, 1 ECF
Durant - 1 Finals, 2 WCF
Kawhi - 1 Title, 1 Finals, 2 WCF
Kobe - 3 Titles, 1 Finals, 1 WCF

Others
Curry - None
Giannis - None
Paul - None
Dirk - None
Garnett - None
Butler - None

Basically, Tatum and the Celtics have advanced farther than most guys on that list and / or had multiple seasons getting to at least the conference finals. Did these other current or future HOFers choke early in their careers? Most of them didn't win a championship in those years . . . were they collapsers? Tatum had multiple years where BOS made a run, so we should look at that NEGATIVELY? To me, that seems . . . odd. Like everything else, we can revisit the Celtics collapsing narrative at some point in the future.

You cant be comparing Shai’s success to Tatum’s success in regard to the accomplishments of the team. For much of the time that Shai has been in OKC, the team and organizations strategy was to tank in order to rebuild for the future. His ability and desire to win was handcuffed by the organizations desire to lose. We are just finally starting to see the potential of how “winning” a player that SGA can be. For Tatum, a large portion of his career so far has been centered around playing with immense talent for a contending team where the motivation of the organization is to win. Over the past several seasons, the motivation and trajectories of the Thunder and Celtics have been wildly different. Until recently, Shai has been in an environment where losing was the plan. Tatum has been playing in an environment where winning has been the design for a lot of his career. Both are great players- so please don’t interpret this as me throwing shade on either.

Of course you can compare the two, as you've just done.

Compare their individual stats all you want. No problem with that. I do think that in Shai’s case—comparing his “winning” and playoff success is not a fair comparison for the sheer perspective that his organization was doing everything they could to prevent winning. Any comparison bringing that stuff up between those two players should mention that extremely pertinent information imo. I’m all about comparing players and dialoging about them—as this is a basketball thread—but I also think that it’s good to not leave out very important pieces of information when doing these things.

 

[Major]

Should Jalen Brunson be considered for MVP?

Sure. Somewhere between 5th and 7th.

Jokic



Luka

Shai

Giannis
Tatum
Brunson
Ant
Davis

I'm probably missing some but that's roughly my view.

That's a good list. I think 1-3 are locked down in most voters minds. The ambiguity comes in the 4-8 range. Brunson is probably 6 or 7 for me. Definitely one of the most valuable players to his team.

 

[Kev4029]

The 4 play-in teams are set in the west though, just not the seeds, right? Philly, Indy, and Miami are still fighting for the 6, correct?

No. CLE-IND-ORL-PHI-MIA can all avoid the play in in the East. Two of those will end up in the 7 and 8 slots. NOS-PHO-SAC-GSW-LAL could all end up as the 6 in the West still (the other 4 will be in the play in).

I don't think that GS and LAL can be the 6 after the Pels win last night.

Yea, I thought the Lakers were locked into 9 or 10 now.

Maybe they tanked so they could raise a Play-In Tournament Champion banner to go next to the In-Season Tournament Champion one.

LeBron Lakers are UNDEFEATED in single game elimination matches (play-in and IST)!!!

I thought I heard that Lebron himself was something like 7-0 in single game elimination matches in his career, including game 7s.

 

[Anarchy99]

I thought I heard that Lebron himself was something like 7-0 in single game elimination matches in his career, including game 7s.

According to Statmuse, Lebron is 14-12 in elimination games and 6-2 in Game 7s.

 

[Yo Mama]

I thought I heard that Lebron himself was something like 7-0 in single game elimination matches in his career, including game 7s.

According to Statmuse, Lebron is 14-12 in elimination games and 6-2 in Game 7s.

Yeah I don’t think that 7-0 number excludes those playoffs elimination games, but I’m only counting to 5-0. Not sure where the other 2 come from (I did see that 7-0 number mentioned too though).

Play in games 2-0 (2021, 2023)
In Season Tournament 3-0

 

[Anarchy99]

I thought I heard that Lebron himself was something like 7-0 in single game elimination matches in his career, including game 7s.

According to Statmuse, Lebron is 14-12 in elimination games and 6-2 in Game 7s.

Yeah I don’t think that 7-0 number excludes those playoffs elimination games, but I’m only counting to 5-0. Not sure where the other 2 come from (I did see that 7-0 number mentioned too though).

Play in games 2-0 (2021, 2023)
In Season Tournament 3-0

Play in games are not considered official league games. Stats are not counted toward regular season or post season totals and wins and losses don't count toward a team's record. In season tournament games are not truly single elimination games . . . the season doesn't end if a team loses. That would explain the difference in the results.

 

[msudaisy26]

I thought I heard that Lebron himself was something like 7-0 in single game elimination matches in his career, including game 7s.

According to Statmuse, Lebron is 14-12 in elimination games and 6-2 in Game 7s.

Yeah I don’t think that 7-0 number excludes those playoffs elimination games, but I’m only counting to 5-0. Not sure where the other 2 come from (I did see that 7-0 number mentioned too though).

Play in games 2-0 (2021, 2023)
In Season Tournament 3-0

Take that Jordan.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

????

From Seth Davis @SethDavisHoops

With all the Billy Donovan chatter there is another former college coach in the NBA who should not be forgotten.

Brad Stevens.

He’s an Indiana native. Perhaps if there’s a big job open in his native state next year….

Don’t rule it out. It’s more possible than you think.

x.com

x.com

 

[Insein]

Sixers currently find themselves in the 6 seed. Interesting final weekend.

 

[the moops]

????

From Seth Davis @SethDavisHoops

With all the Billy Donovan chatter there is another former college coach in the NBA who should not be forgotten.

Brad Stevens.

He’s an Indiana native. Perhaps if there’s a big job open in his native state next year….

Don’t rule it out. It’s more possible than you think.

x.com

x.com

I find this unlikely. He’s got a sweet gig as an exec in the nba with a much chiller job than the grind of recruiting and coaching. but who knows i guess

 

[Yo Mama]

I thought I heard that Lebron himself was something like 7-0 in single game elimination matches in his career, including game 7s.

According to Statmuse, Lebron is 14-12 in elimination games and 6-2 in Game 7s.

Yeah I don’t think that 7-0 number excludes those playoffs elimination games, but I’m only counting to 5-0. Not sure where the other 2 come from (I did see that 7-0 number mentioned too though).

Play in games 2-0 (2021, 2023)
In Season Tournament 3-0

Play in games are not considered official league games. Stats are not counted toward regular season or post season totals and wins and losses don't count toward a team's record. In season tournament games are not truly single elimination games . . . the season doesn't end if a team loses. That would explain the difference in the results.

Sorry Dr. Naismith, it was a number some NBA reporter quoted on Twitter and they were including the IST knockout games and play-in games in the 7-0 single-elimination number. Of course it’s not an official league stat.

 

[Frostillicus]

Looking like the Wolves would rather be the 3 than the 2. Helped out by Trae Young's foul merchant routine working at an A+++ level tonight

 

[Moe.]

Looking like the Wolves would rather be the 3 than the 2. Helped out by Trae Young's foul merchant routine working at an A+++ level tonight

I can’t imagine why at this point. The Spurs are making things interesting against Denver. Am I correct that if it’s a 3-way tie the Thunder get it?

 

[Mister CIA]

Ahem.

 

[Moe.]

Spurs!

 

[Frostillicus]

Looking like the Wolves would rather be the 3 than the 2. Helped out by Trae Young's foul merchant routine working at an A+++ level tonight

I can’t imagine why at this point. The Spurs are making things interesting against Denver. Am I correct that if it’s a 3-way tie the Thunder get it?

I mean they're playing like complete ***.

 

[Moe.]

Looking like the Wolves would rather be the 3 than the 2. Helped out by Trae Young's foul merchant routine working at an A+++ level tonight

I can’t imagine why at this point. The Spurs are making things interesting against Denver. Am I correct that if it’s a 3-way tie the Thunder get it?

I mean they're playing like complete ***.

Gotcha. I thought you meant on purpose. They are gonna pull this one out. I wonder if Finch just told them what’s going on with Denver at that last timeout

 

[Kev4029]

Nuggets lol

 

[Moe.]

2 is great for the Thunder, no chance of drawing the Lakers.

 

[Mister CIA]

Pop is taking the team out for ice cream tonight.

 

[Frostillicus]

Whew.

Wolves' announcers saying the Wolves are now the #1 seed. I have no idea.

 

[Frostillicus]

I think it should be OKC. The Wolves split with Denver and them, but they went 3-1 against Denver. It looks like record against each other is the #2 tie-breaker for 3 teams.

 

[Yo Mama]

I think it should be OKC. The Wolves split with Denver and them, but they went 3-1 against Denver. It looks like record against each other is the #2 tie-breaker for 3 teams.

Yeah I think OKC has the tie breaker over Min. Three way tie would go OKC, Min, Den.

 

[Frostillicus]

Statmuse just listed the top 3 seeds as : MIN, OKC, DEN on twitter so I don't know what is going on.

 

[Moe.]

Yeah it’s the Thunder, Wolves announcers had me confused as well. Timberwolves have it over the Thunder due to conference record, but 3-way tie is OKC

 

[Moe.]

This is from the NBA’s website. Number 2 breaks the tie in favor of the Thunder. Number 1 is a joke of a tiebreaker.

Tiebreaker Basis – Three or More Teams Tied

(1) Division leader wins tie from team not leading a division (this criterion is applied regardless of whether the tied teams are in the same division)

(2) Better winning percentage in all games among the tied teams

(3) Division won-lost percentage (only if all teams are in same division)

(4) Conference won-lost percentage

(5) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for the playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position)

(6) Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents (“point differential”)

 

[PIK95]

MPJ is the Tatum of the West. Those dudes can shoot, but like the Tin Woodman, neither has a heart. Oof.

 

[Instinctive]

Dallas packed it in tonight, rest up those guys. Interesting situation now...I think if they just roll over for OKC, they get to avoid the Nuggets til a WCF?

 

[Frostillicus]

If OKC wins, they are #1. Unless Denver loses and the Wolves win, then the Wolves are #1.

If OKC loses and the Wolves win, then the Wolves are #1 no matter what Denver does.

If OKC and MIN lose and Denver wins, then Denver is #1.

 

[Yo Mama]

Per Matt Moore (Hardwood Paroxysm):


Sorry, MIN does not control destiny. Hilariously, NO ONE at the top of the West controls destiny.

If Wolves win and Thunder win and Nuggets win,

1. OKC
2. MIN
3. DEN

If Wolves win and Thunder win and Nuggets lose

1. MIN
2. OKC
3. DEN

if Wolves win and Thunder lose and Nuggets lose
1. Wolves
2. Thunder
3. Nuggets

If Wolves win and Thunder lose and Nuggets win
1. Wolves
2. Nuggets
3. Thunder

If Wolves lose and Thunder win and Nuggets win

1. OKC
2. DEN
3. MIN

if Wolves lose and Thunder lose and Nuggets win

1. DEN
2. MIN
3. OKC

If Wolves lose and Thunder lose and Nuggets lose

1. OKC
2. MIN
3. DEN

https://x.com/hpbasketball/status/1778978855463555291?s=46&t=y6cC9YGHSWmPAqN66itfRA

 

[Yo Mama]

Sounds like Mavs will be sitting everyone vs OKC Sunday.

 

[Frostillicus]

If the Kings can beat the Suns tonight, Phoenix will be locked in at #7. Since they play the Wolves in the finale, I would like that very much.

 

[Frostillicus]

But only if NO wins tonight.

This is complicated.

 

[Yo Mama]

Sounds like Mavs will be sitting everyone vs OKC Sunday.

Mavs losing ensures Nuggets are out of their half of the bracket.

It’s crazy Min, OKC, and Den all play at the same time Sunday.

 

[Deamon]

Sixers currently find themselves in the 6 seed. Interesting final weekend.

We are still the 7 seed.

Reading all the scenarios, it's an absolute MESS. Philly could be playing the Bucks, Knicks, or Cavs round 1. Personally I'd rather play the Bucks which seems weird to say. There's so many ways all these teams can shift, it's gonna be messy.

 

[Jayrod]

????

From Seth Davis @SethDavisHoops

With all the Billy Donovan chatter there is another former college coach in the NBA who should not be forgotten.

Brad Stevens.

He’s an Indiana native. Perhaps if there’s a big job open in his native state next year….

Don’t rule it out. It’s more possible than you think.

x.com

x.com

I will cut people.

In Brad we trust.

 

[Jayrod]

MPJ is the Tatum of the West. Those dudes can shoot, but like the Tin Woodman, neither has a heart. Oof.

Lol.

One guy is about to earn his 3rd straight All-NBA 1st team and is his team's best player. The other guy has never even made an All-Star game and is his team's 3rd option.

Who was that other clown who said Tatum and Kelly Oubre were comparable players? This is pretty much on par with that.

 

[Instinctive]

Sounds like Mavs will be sitting everyone vs OKC Sunday.

They better

 

[PIK95]

MPJ is the Tatum of the West. Those dudes can shoot, but like the Tin Woodman, neither has a heart. Oof.

Lol.

One guy is about to earn his 3rd straight All-NBA 1st team and is his team's best player. The other guy has never even made an All-Star game and is his team's 3rd option.

Who was that other clown who said Tatum and Kelly Oubre were comparable players? This is pretty much on par with that.

He still has no heart. And they won't win again because of him this year.

 

[Chemical X]

Sixers currently find themselves in the 6 seed. Interesting final weekend.

We are still the 7 seed.

Reading all the scenarios, it's an absolute MESS. Philly could be playing the Bucks, Knicks, or Cavs round 1. Personally I'd rather play the Bucks which seems weird to say. There's so many ways all these teams can shift, it's gonna be messy.

i know jokic will win the mvp, but if the nyk win and milwaukee loses and the nyk get the 2 seed, would anyone be more valuable to their team than brunson? i mean, are they even playin caliber without him? i know it’s all relative, but i can not believe what this guy turned into………many were questioning if they overpaid 4/100 for him, including me. would he ever have become this in dallas? was dallas derelict in figuring him out?