2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread: Message board poster furiously types out one more horrible post before thread closes (2 Viewers)

[msudaisy26]

Tatum with the hug. Valentimes day was.a few months ago.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Doris Burke seemed befuddled that Boston challenged the last foul under the basket
Not saying she shouldn't

 

[GroveDiesel]

That whole inbounds pass sequence with 10 seconds left, including the fact they still had a timeout, is just mind-boggling.

And then not fouling and letting them get a 3 off was mind boggling as well. Epic choke by the Pacers. Frustrating as it sure seemed like Brown had a handful of Siakam’s Jersey on that inbounds, but no excuse for not using the timeout and getting a better play setup. The strategy at the end of the game was awful

 

[trader jake]

That whole inbounds pass sequence with 10 seconds left, including the fact they still had a timeout, is just mind-boggling.

And then not fouling and letting them get a 3 off was mind boggling as well. Epic choke by the Pacers. Frustrating as it sure seemed like Brown had a handful of Siakam’s Jersey on that inbounds, but no excuse for not using the timeout and getting a better play setup. The strategy at the end of the game was awful

This. Indiana absolutely blew game 1 at the end of regulation.

 

[msudaisy26]

I don't have a lot of confidence that Boston will win this in OT.

Seriously? That was a deflating dagger. I wouldn't be surprised if they won by 10.

5 is the new 10!

 

[Jayrod]

Celtics stole it.

I know it is one game, but that could be a dagger for Indy. They played well and Boston struggled at times. Celtics definitely have another gear and KP is probably going to play by the end of the series.

 

[Deamon]

All time choke just call your timeout with 10 seconds left up 3 instead of forcing a bad inbounds pass

The refs probably wouldn't have granted them the timeout.

 

[msudaisy26]

All time choke just call your timeout with 10 seconds left up 3 instead of forcing a bad inbounds pass

The refs probably wouldn't have granted them the timeout.

They don't do that to teams that can make a conference finals.

 

[Jayrod]

Shooting splits:
IND - 54/37/90
BOS - 48/33/80

Offense rebounds: Boston +3 (13 vs 10)
Turnovers: Boston +7 (14 vs 21)

Those 10 extra possessions won Boston the game because Indy was more efficient.

 

[ZADO]

Gonna be a tough series

Well done Celtics

 

[Deamon]

I know it is one game, but that could be a dagger for Indy

That's the series for sure. Indy had it. That's going to be very hard to recover from. Boston wins G2 by double digits.

 

[AAABatteries]

Pacers blew that game.

 

[Deamon]

Pacers blew that game.

you don't say.

 

[identikit]

Pacers lost the first 2 games @ MSG too

They're resilient

 

[Capella]

That whole inbounds pass sequence with 10 seconds left, including the fact they still had a timeout, is just mind-boggling.

Yea idk what Carlisle was doing. Was he awake?

 

[Capella]

I know it is one game, but that could be a dagger for Indy

That's the series for sure. Indy had it. That's going to be very hard to recover from. Boston wins G2 by double digits.

Boston lost both game 2s already against weaker opponents. I was betting Indiana blind game 2.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Boston with 2 blown double digit leads in 1 game.

Awesome.

ETA: still won. Idk how.

 

[identikit]

Boston with 2 blown double digit leads in 1 game.

Awesome.

ETA: still won. Idk how.

Team Lackadaisical got lucky

 

[Jayrod]

I would be very very surprised if Boston lost game 2.

This was their game 2 clunker, just a game early.

 

[Deamon]

Boston lost both game 2s already against weaker opponents. I was betting Indiana blind game 2.

I would be very very surprised if Boston lost game 2.

This was their game 2 clunker, just a game early.

Yep, for sure. They opened as 9 point favourites for G2. Indy just lost the series there.

 

[Jayrod]

I would be very very surprised if Boston lost game 2.

This was their game 2 clunker, just a game early.

Yep, for sure. They opened as 9 point favourites for G2. Indy just lost the series there.

TBH, I really just hope I'm right because if Boston plays bad again and loses game 2, I'm going into a full blown the sky is falling meltdown.

 

[Deamon]

I would be very very surprised if Boston lost game 2.

This was their game 2 clunker, just a game early.

Yep, for sure. They opened as 9 point favourites for G2. Indy just lost the series there.

TBH, I really just hope I'm right because if Boston plays bad again and loses game 2, I'm going into a full blown the sky is falling meltdown.

you are right. Boston will win g2 big.

 

[Deamon]

There's really no one else to cheer for at this point this playoffs that has a shot. Really don't want Kyrie and Luka to win, but they just might.

Imagine Dallas being the current Champions in 3 of the 4 major sports? Has that ever happened?

 

[ShamrockPride]

There's really no one else to cheer for at this point this playoffs that has a shot. Really don't want Kyrie and Luka to win, but they just might.

Imagine Dallas being the current Champions in 3 of the 4 major sports? Has that ever happened?

Closest I'm seeing is either Detroit in 1935 (Lions, Tigers, Red Wings...although that is technically the 1936 NHL season).

Other than that, Boston in 2007 came an undefeated Patriots choke away from doing it along with the Sox and Celtics.

 

[Deamon]

There's really no one else to cheer for at this point this playoffs that has a shot. Really don't want Kyrie and Luka to win, but they just might.

Imagine Dallas being the current Champions in 3 of the 4 major sports? Has that ever happened?

Closest I'm seeing is either Detroit in 1935 (Lions, Tigers, Red Wings...although that is technically the 1936 NHL season).

Other than that, Boston in 2007 came an undefeated Patriots choke away from doing it along with the Sox and Celtics.

awesome, thanks for looking into that. would be interesting for sure. I guess I wouldn't hate it as long as the Cowboys get nowhere near it

 

[Capella]

There's really no one else to cheer for at this point this playoffs that has a shot. Really don't want Kyrie and Luka to win, but they just might.

Imagine Dallas being the current Champions in 3 of the 4 major sports? Has that ever happened?

Closest I'm seeing is either Detroit in 1935 (Lions, Tigers, Red Wings...although that is technically the 1936 NHL season).

Other than that, Boston in 2007 came an undefeated Patriots choke away from doing it along with the Sox and Celtics.

Tampa could have had it in 2020 if the Rays had beat the Dodgers.

 

[the moops]

Last minute I got invited by a neighbor to go Billy Strings show last night so I didn't get to see one second of this. I made a god choice

 

[Desert_Power]

Last minute I got invited by a neighbor to go Billy Strings show last night so I didn't get to see one second of this. I made a god choice

Which one did you choose? There are so many.

 

[identikit]

Last minute I got invited by a neighbor to go Billy Strings show last night so I didn't get to see one second of this. I made a god choice

 

[dickey moe]

Last minute I got invited by a neighbor to go Billy Strings show last night so I didn't get to see one second of this. I made a god choice

Good bless you.

 

[mr. furley]

Look at that. Pacers stop making every freaking shot and the Celtics start to pull away.

That first half shooting by Indy was unsustainable.

You’d think a 21-2 free throw disparity through 3 quarters is unsustainable as well.

refs clearly in Rick Carlisle's pocket going forward

/Boston fans

 

[mr. furley]

How many times has Haliburton lost the ball just dribbling?

my favorite sequence the entire game was the slo-mo replay of him falling out of bounds on to Breen's monitor

not because of the fall but because the close-up slo-mo of him blatantly carrying with his hand completely under the ball as it spins on his hand like a dinner plate... not once.. but twice. that should be submitted to the league as a violation to be corrected in 2024/2025.

very old man of me but my god it's impossible to defend off the dribble when dudes can do that.

just eliminate dribbling at this point.

 

[Jayrod]

How many times has Haliburton lost the ball just dribbling?

my favorite sequence the entire game was the slo-mo replay of him falling out of bounds on to Breen's monitor

not because of the fall but because the close-up slo-mo of him blatantly carrying with his hand completely under the ball as it spins on his hand like a dinner plate... not once.. but twice. that should be submitted to the league as a violation to be corrected in 2024/2025.

very old man of me but my god it's impossible to defend off the dribble when dudes can do that.

just eliminate dribbling at this point.

Jaylen Brown's multiple step through moves were suspect as well last night.

He was awfully close to jumping instead of stepping and also shouldn't have had another step available on one of them, but that's the generous stretching of "gather" step they give everyone.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

 

[msudaisy26]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

 

[Kev4029]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

He under performed in the Wolves series, no doubt, but I wouldn't go as far to say he has underperformed wholistically. In his career, he has averaged 16.2 pp36 and 8.3 rp36 on 38% from three and a .581 TS%. Future HOFer, Klay Thompson (in a VERY similar role and skill set offensively) has averaged 19.2 pp36 on 40% from three and .555 TS%. HOFer Ray Allen Averaged 16.3 pp36 while shooting 40% from three and a .585 TS%.

I'll continue to be frustrated by MPJ and the Nuggets' use of him, but you have too much recency bias clouding your evaluation of him. He's an elite shot maker that didn't make shots last series. That stuff happens to everybody other than Steph Curry.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

We can agree t disagree. Regardless of what MPJ himself says—I don’t think the reason they lost this year is on him. The Jokic/Murray/Gordon/Porter/Braun/Watson/KCP nucleus is championship caliber in my opinion—I think the reason they lost this season is because they played an equally elite team that had more depth. Minnesota had the depth to play aggressive defense, to at times defend the entire court to where Denver even had to expend energy just bringing the ball up, and Denver eventually ran out of gas. Every season—there are some players that sign for the league minimum that are solid contributors. Look at Kelly oubre jr or Spencer Dinwiddie. A guy like Thaddeus young could be helpful. Look at what the Bulls got Andre Drummond for last year…etc. I expect Braun and Watson to improve moderately to significantly moving forward. Taking that into account—I really feel like they are maybe one or two role players away from being a top 2-3 favorite team to win it all. Like I said before, unless you are able to translate MPJ into a guy like Paul George—more likely than not—you’re probably downgrading. Just out of curiosity—could you name a couple viable (like legit potentially available via sign and trade, and viable salary wise) players that you think would improve Denver above having MPJ? I just don’t think that list is very long at all.

 

[msudaisy26]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

He under performed in the Wolves series, no doubt, but I wouldn't go as far to say he has underperformed wholistically. In his career, he has averaged 16.2 pp36 and 8.3 rp36 on 38% from three and a .581 TS%. Future HOFer, Klay Thompson (in a VERY similar role and skill set offensively) has averaged 19.2 pp36 on 40% from three and .555 TS%. HOFer Ray Allen Averaged 16.3 pp36 while shooting 40% from three and a .585 TS%.

I'll continue to be frustrated by MPJ and the Nuggets' use of him, but you have too much recency bias clouding your evaluation of him. He's an elite shot maker that didn't make shots last series. That stuff happens to everybody other than Steph Curry.

I don't remember all of MPJ playoff numbers, but two of the last three series he has been awful.

Are those career numbers? If so that is very flawed because post injury Klay has been awful and Ray Allen was a different era that also include the twightlight of his career.

The eye test says MPJ doesn't have it. We see guys that come into the league all the time with all the skills and it just doesn't click. Loon at guys like Andrew Wiggins, Rasheed Wallace, etc. These are good players that should be great. That is MPJ.

 

[Kev4029]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

We can agree t disagree. Regardless of what MPJ himself says—I don’t think the reason they lost this year is on him. The Jokic/Murray/Gordon/Porter/Braun/Watson/KCP nucleus is championship caliber in my opinion—I think the reason they lost this season is because they played an equally elite team that had more depth. Minnesota had the depth to play aggressive defense, to at times defend the entire court to where Denver even had to expend energy just bringing the ball up, and Denver eventually ran out of gas. Every season—there are some players that sign for the league minimum that are solid contributors. Look at Kelly oubre jr or Spencer Dinwiddie. A guy like Thaddeus young could be helpful. Look at what the Bulls got Andre Drummond for last year…etc. I expect Braun and Watson to improve moderately to significantly moving forward. Taking that into account—I really feel like they are maybe one or two role players away from being a top 2-3 favorite team to win it all. Like I said before, unless you are able to translate MPJ into a guy like Paul George—more likely than not—you’re probably downgrading. Just out of curiosity—could you name a couple viable (like legit potentially available via sign and trade, and viable salary wise) players that you think would improve Denver above having MPJ? I just don’t think that list is very long at all.

Thad Young hasn't played a serious role for like 4 seasons now, there is no way he isn't toast.

Some guys on the cheap (potentially - some of these guys are worth more but could be pinched) that could be signed for the tax payer MLE or less and might serve a role with the Nuggets in 24-25.

Bigs - Jalen Smith, Precious Achiuwa, Xaiver Tillman, Davis Bertans
Wings - Hield, Naji Marshall, Beasley, Melton, Gary Harris
PG: Monte Morris

 

[thecatch]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

We can agree t disagree. Regardless of what MPJ himself says—I don’t think the reason they lost this year is on him. The Jokic/Murray/Gordon/Porter/Braun/Watson/KCP nucleus is championship caliber in my opinion—I think the reason they lost this season is because they played an equally elite team that had more depth. Minnesota had the depth to play aggressive defense, to at times defend the entire court to where Denver even had to expend energy just bringing the ball up, and Denver eventually ran out of gas. Every season—there are some players that sign for the league minimum that are solid contributors. Look at Kelly oubre jr or Spencer Dinwiddie. A guy like Thaddeus young could be helpful. Look at what the Bulls got Andre Drummond for last year…etc. I expect Braun and Watson to improve moderately to significantly moving forward. Taking that into account—I really feel like they are maybe one or two role players away from being a top 2-3 favorite team to win it all. Like I said before, unless you are able to translate MPJ into a guy like Paul George—more likely than not—you’re probably downgrading. Just out of curiosity—could you name a couple viable (like legit potentially available via sign and trade, and viable salary wise) players that you think would improve Denver above having MPJ? I just don’t think that list is very long at all.

Thad Young hasn't played a serious role for like 4 seasons now, there is no way he isn't toast.

Some guys on the cheap (potentially - some of these guys are worth more but could be pinched) that could be signed for the tax payer MLE or less and might serve a role with the Nuggets in 24-25.

Bigs - Jalen Smith, Precious Achiuwa, Xaiver Tillman, Davis Bertans
Wings - Hield, Naji Marshall, Beasley, Melton, Gary Harris
PG: Monte Morris

They won't have the taxpayer MLE unless KCP leaves, I don't think.

 

[Kev4029]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

He under performed in the Wolves series, no doubt, but I wouldn't go as far to say he has underperformed wholistically. In his career, he has averaged 16.2 pp36 and 8.3 rp36 on 38% from three and a .581 TS%. Future HOFer, Klay Thompson (in a VERY similar role and skill set offensively) has averaged 19.2 pp36 on 40% from three and .555 TS%. HOFer Ray Allen Averaged 16.3 pp36 while shooting 40% from three and a .585 TS%.

I'll continue to be frustrated by MPJ and the Nuggets' use of him, but you have too much recency bias clouding your evaluation of him. He's an elite shot maker that didn't make shots last series. That stuff happens to everybody other than Steph Curry.

I don't remember all of MPJ playoff numbers, but two of the last three series he has been awful.

Are those career numbers? If so that is very flawed because post injury Klay has been awful and Ray Allen was a different era that also include the twightlight of his career.

The eye test says MPJ doesn't have it. We see guys that come into the league all the time with all the skills and it just doesn't click. Loon at guys like Andrew Wiggins, Rasheed Wallace, etc. These are good players that should be great. That is MPJ.

Yes, those are career numbers. If you take only Klay's "prime" before he got hurt, it's 18.7 pp36 while shooting 41% from three and .560 TS%. With regards to Allen, I would say that his role in Boston was much more similar to MPJ's than his time in Milwaukee or Seattle, so if you just isolate his time in Boston, it's 14.7 pp36 with 39% from three and .574 TS%. His usage was up in his younger years as he was on ball much more often, but otherwise, he was pretty steady across his career.

If you want to compare MPJ with Wallace and Wiggins, I guess that's fine, but I think they failed to live up to their potential for very different reasons than MPJ. Porter is still playing with drop foot in one of his legs because of nerve damage to his three back surgeries. I posted a video a couple weeks back of some of his high school highlights - he wasn't a nuclear athlete like Lebron or something, but he was closer to that second tier of NBA athletes before he got hurt. By all accounts, he is a good teammate that works very hard. He's not a headcase like Wallace or a guy that has completely rested on his talent like Wiggins. He will never be what he was supposed to be before going to Mizzu but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player or has some sort of moral failing to reach that level.

 

[msudaisy26]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

He under performed in the Wolves series, no doubt, but I wouldn't go as far to say he has underperformed wholistically. In his career, he has averaged 16.2 pp36 and 8.3 rp36 on 38% from three and a .581 TS%. Future HOFer, Klay Thompson (in a VERY similar role and skill set offensively) has averaged 19.2 pp36 on 40% from three and .555 TS%. HOFer Ray Allen Averaged 16.3 pp36 while shooting 40% from three and a .585 TS%.

I'll continue to be frustrated by MPJ and the Nuggets' use of him, but you have too much recency bias clouding your evaluation of him. He's an elite shot maker that didn't make shots last series. That stuff happens to everybody other than Steph Curry.

I don't remember all of MPJ playoff numbers, but two of the last three series he has been awful.

Are those career numbers? If so that is very flawed because post injury Klay has been awful and Ray Allen was a different era that also include the twightlight of his career.

The eye test says MPJ doesn't have it. We see guys that come into the league all the time with all the skills and it just doesn't click. Loon at guys like Andrew Wiggins, Rasheed Wallace, etc. These are good players that should be great. That is MPJ.

Yes, those are career numbers. If you take only Klay's "prime" before he got hurt, it's 18.7 pp36 while shooting 41% from three and .560 TS%. With regards to Allen, I would say that his role in Boston was much more similar to MPJ's than his time in Milwaukee or Seattle, so if you just isolate his time in Boston, it's 14.7 pp36 with 39% from three and .574 TS%. His usage was up in his younger years as he was on ball much more often, but otherwise, he was pretty steady across his career.

If you want to compare MPJ with Wallace and Wiggins, I guess that's fine, but I think they failed to live up to their potential for very different reasons than MPJ. Porter is still playing with drop foot in one of his legs because of nerve damage to his three back surgeries. I posted a video a couple weeks back of some of his high school highlights - he wasn't a nuclear athlete like Lebron or something, but he was closer to that second tier of NBA athletes before he got hurt. By all accounts, he is a good teammate that works very hard. He's not a headcase like Wallace or a guy that has completely rested on his talent like Wiggins. He will never be what he was supposed to be before going to Mizzu but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player or has some sort of moral failing to reach that level.

They aren't perfect comparisons because there never is one, but Denver has a window and needs a change, and it should be him.

 

[Kev4029]

My thoughts on all of this...

• Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
• MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
• Regarding his defense:
  • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
  • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
  • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
  • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
  • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
• Offensively:
  • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
  • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
  • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
  • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.

Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.

I very much agree with a lot of this. The biggest point that I was trying to make is that MPJ is not as bad as lot of people are making him out to be—and that his size, age, and skill set are something that is very rare, valuable and hard to replace in the league. Players that possess the skill and tools that MPJ have tend to command a lot of salary due to that scarcity.

In regard to Jamal—even though I clearly and transparently stated that I didn’t think that the career stats that I brought up meant that MPJ is as good a player as Jamal—it seems as though people just ignored that—and digested the stats that I brought up as meaning I felt they had the same impact on the court. My point was that over their careers—statistically MPJ has averaged an efficient scoring punch that is similar to Jamal . That doesn’t mean that I said that he’s a better player and I made that crystal clear in my post.

In regard to Jamal Murray’s assist numbers— I still firmly stand by my opinion that he is an overrated playmaker when it comes to his skill set in setting up his teammates. Him ranking 15th in the league in assists doesn’t mean much to me because he’s a point guard that is playing with a multi-time MVP winner in Jokic that is a matchup nightmare, Aaron Gordon who is a wonderful finisher, and MPJ who is one of the leagues most efficient shooters from range. I also don’t hink that DeAngelo Russell is a great playmaker in regard to setting his teammates up and his talent as a passer—and he averaged 0.2 assists a game fewer than Jamal. Guys like Murray and DeAngelo are going to get 3-4 assists a game just by throwing relatively standard passes to guys like Jokic, Gordon, Anthony David or lebron. I also think that the presence of Jokic makes it so that Jamal has the easiest job in the league in regard to the typical duties that point guards have in the league. Most people would agree that point guard is the toughest position to learn and play in the league— and in Jamal’s case—Jokic has massively simplified those duties. Let me make crystal clear before anybody misrepresents what I’m saying as that I think that Murray is a bad player or that he sucks. I think that he’s a very good player (he’s an elite clutch shooter)—-that is overrated as being overall great or elite. He’s a solid but streaky scorer, he’s an average passer for an NBA point guard (I’ve watched a lot of his games—and aside from a few passes here or there—I’ve never been consistently impressed with his court vision or passing), and an adequate defender for the position.

The point is MPJ is in his prime and hasn't been great in the playoffs, despite that skill set. He already has back issues and Denver has a window of 2 or 3 more years to really contend. Of their top 5 players he is the most likely to be traded without hurting that window.

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go, and that someone is the guy that is underperformed.

We can agree t disagree. Regardless of what MPJ himself says—I don’t think the reason they lost this year is on him. The Jokic/Murray/Gordon/Porter/Braun/Watson/KCP nucleus is championship caliber in my opinion—I think the reason they lost this season is because they played an equally elite team that had more depth. Minnesota had the depth to play aggressive defense, to at times defend the entire court to where Denver even had to expend energy just bringing the ball up, and Denver eventually ran out of gas. Every season—there are some players that sign for the league minimum that are solid contributors. Look at Kelly oubre jr or Spencer Dinwiddie. A guy like Thaddeus young could be helpful. Look at what the Bulls got Andre Drummond for last year…etc. I expect Braun and Watson to improve moderately to significantly moving forward. Taking that into account—I really feel like they are maybe one or two role players away from being a top 2-3 favorite team to win it all. Like I said before, unless you are able to translate MPJ into a guy like Paul George—more likely than not—you’re probably downgrading. Just out of curiosity—could you name a couple viable (like legit potentially available via sign and trade, and viable salary wise) players that you think would improve Denver above having MPJ? I just don’t think that list is very long at all.

Thad Young hasn't played a serious role for like 4 seasons now, there is no way he isn't toast.

Some guys on the cheap (potentially - some of these guys are worth more but could be pinched) that could be signed for the tax payer MLE or less and might serve a role with the Nuggets in 24-25.

Bigs - Jalen Smith, Precious Achiuwa, Xaiver Tillman, Davis Bertans
Wings - Hield, Naji Marshall, Beasley, Melton, Gary Harris
PG: Monte Morris

They won't have the taxpayer MLE unless KCP leaves, I don't think.

Spotrac says they are likely to be $1.6M over the 2nd apron, so you are probably right unless they can dump Nnaji. Waiving and stretching Jackson (or trading him and a second rounder or something) would also serve to likely get them under the 2nd Apron with a replacement signed.

 

[Kev4029]

Yes, those are career numbers. If you take only Klay's "prime" before he got hurt, it's 18.7 pp36 while shooting 41% from three and .560 TS%. With regards to Allen, I would say that his role in Boston was much more similar to MPJ's than his time in Milwaukee or Seattle, so if you just isolate his time in Boston, it's 14.7 pp36 with 39% from three and .574 TS%. His usage was up in his younger years as he was on ball much more often, but otherwise, he was pretty steady across his career.

If you want to compare MPJ with Wallace and Wiggins, I guess that's fine, but I think they failed to live up to their potential for very different reasons than MPJ. Porter is still playing with drop foot in one of his legs because of nerve damage to his three back surgeries. I posted a video a couple weeks back of some of his high school highlights - he wasn't a nuclear athlete like Lebron or something, but he was closer to that second tier of NBA athletes before he got hurt. By all accounts, he is a good teammate that works very hard. He's not a headcase like Wallace or a guy that has completely rested on his talent like Wiggins. He will never be what he was supposed to be before going to Mizzu but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player or has some sort of moral failing to reach that level.

They aren't perfect comparisons because there never is one, but Denver has a window and needs a change, and it should be him.

I'm not necessarily opposed to trading him, especially if they aren't going to work to get him more involved in the offense. I think from the general sentiment here, you can see that a trade won't be easy to find a suiter that can also help either make the team better or maintain the level while making the team cheaper. Denver can include their 2024 pick with their 2031 pick (technically two years after their 2029 conveys to OKC... so it could be no pick at all), and swaps in between (kinda, all their picks have protections, so the language would be weird), with some straggling 2nd rounders. What would be a deal that you would look at for Porter?

 

[msudaisy26]

Yes, those are career numbers. If you take only Klay's "prime" before he got hurt, it's 18.7 pp36 while shooting 41% from three and .560 TS%. With regards to Allen, I would say that his role in Boston was much more similar to MPJ's than his time in Milwaukee or Seattle, so if you just isolate his time in Boston, it's 14.7 pp36 with 39% from three and .574 TS%. His usage was up in his younger years as he was on ball much more often, but otherwise, he was pretty steady across his career.

If you want to compare MPJ with Wallace and Wiggins, I guess that's fine, but I think they failed to live up to their potential for very different reasons than MPJ. Porter is still playing with drop foot in one of his legs because of nerve damage to his three back surgeries. I posted a video a couple weeks back of some of his high school highlights - he wasn't a nuclear athlete like Lebron or something, but he was closer to that second tier of NBA athletes before he got hurt. By all accounts, he is a good teammate that works very hard. He's not a headcase like Wallace or a guy that has completely rested on his talent like Wiggins. He will never be what he was supposed to be before going to Mizzu but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player or has some sort of moral failing to reach that level.

They aren't perfect comparisons because there never is one, but Denver has a window and needs a change, and it should be him.

I'm not necessarily opposed to trading him, especially if they aren't going to work to get him more involved in the offense. I think from the general sentiment here, you can see that a trade won't be easy to find a suiter that can also help either make the team better or maintain the level while making the team cheaper. Denver can include their 2024 pick with their 2031 pick (technically two years after their 2029 conveys to OKC... so it could be no pick at all), and swaps in between (kinda, all their picks have protections, so the language would be weird), with some straggling 2nd rounders. What would be a deal that you would look at for Porter?

I would take a chance on him if I was the Pistons, but they are stupid so that won't happen. Fontecchio and Stewart should be around 25 to 30 million in pay roll. That gives Denver room to get under the 2nd apron and bring in someone. Stewart would be decent off the bench to give Jokic and Gordon rest. Fontecchio would be the shooter to space the floor.

 

[the moops]

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go,

They will likely go into next year being one the top 5 favorites to win a title. I don't think they necessarily need to do anything drastic

 

[msudaisy26]

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go,

They will likely go into next year being one the top 5 favorites to win a title. I don't think they necessarily need to do anything drastic

I don't follow their cap situation, but if Kev says is correct they are against the second apron and can't really do anything. I don't think running it back will work.

 

[mr. furley]

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go,

They will likely go into next year being one the top 5 favorites to win a title. I don't think they necessarily need to do anything drastic

agreed. playoff over-reaction is in high gear right now.

 

[Kev4029]

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go,

They will likely go into next year being one the top 5 favorites to win a title. I don't think they necessarily need to do anything drastic

And while the bench was clearly a problem, the biggest reason they struggled this playoffs was because Murray clearly was way less than healthy (which is a theme of his career). If he starts the post season as healthy as last post season, they beat the Wolves. Other than KCP, the entire team is either pre-prime (all the young bench dudes) or in their prime (every starter other than KCP).

In 24-25, I think the Nuggets will have the third best odds to win the title behind Boston and whichever team makes it out of the west this postseason. If somebody makes a big trade or signing (Philly, OKC, Miami) they may hop over them as well.

 

[thecatch]

If Denver wants to win another title then someone has to go,

They will likely go into next year being one the top 5 favorites to win a title. I don't think they necessarily need to do anything drastic

I don't follow their cap situation, but if Kev says is correct they are against the second apron and can't really do anything. I don't think running it back will work.

Sure it will. They can just draft someone in the first, sign a couple of minimum guys, and still go into next season as one of the title favorites.