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2025 Detroit Lions: 1-1 Lions vs Lamar (180 Viewers)

Hock trade:

Traded up picks in the next two drafts; turned 2023’s 4th into a 2nd rounder and 2024’s 4th into a 3rd.

They weren't really interested in giving him the LT deal (going rate 4-5 yrs for $14-16M) for 1-2 elite games per year. Deal makes sense for both sides.

James Mitchell & Brock Wright it is.

It really does not matter at this point. Holmes should get a couple more years but Campbell needs to go after this season, his act is growing old fast. Wonder how long he will keep the locker room as I heard Pleasent was a player favorite as coach.
 
Hock trade:

Traded up picks in the next two drafts; turned 2023’s 4th into a 2nd rounder and 2024’s 4th into a 3rd.

They weren't really interested in giving him the LT deal (going rate 4-5 yrs for $14-16M) for 1-2 elite games per year. Deal makes sense for both sides.

James Mitchell & Brock Wright it is.

It really does not matter at this point. Holmes should get a couple more years but Campbell needs to go after this season, his act is growing old fast. Wonder how long he will keep the locker room as I heard Pleasent was a player favorite as coach.
Depends if they see Campbell and/or Glenn using Pleasant as a scapegoat. If the plan was to chuck the hell out of the WRs and mug them and that didn't happen, why not?

You can't hit what you can't get to, Miami wrs were too elusive? Or DBs were too scared they'd get burned if they missed so backed off? Did Pleasant disagree with that plan?

You wonder what happened at half time if Campbell/Glenn thought that plan was not being followed.

Lions only had two defensive penalties against Miami. Oruwariye lining up offside and Okwara with an illegal contact. So if DBs were expected to be physical I would expect to have seen more penalties for defensive holding or illegal contact beyond 5 yards.

So why was Pleasant fired? Ongoing issues? Miami game was the tipping point? Campbell mentioned lack of production.

Dolphins are a good team they haven't lost when Tua has played except when he got knocked out early in Bengals game. They beat the Bills and threw for over 460 yards and for 6 TDs against the Ravens. If their defense gets healthy will challenge for AFC. Tua is reported to have the quickest release and maybe the two best WR tandem, Lions were outmatched. If Lions thought their best chance was to mug the WRs to give pass rush a chance, why didn't it happen.

I do not think it was scapegoating, I think it was a similar situation to Anthony Lynn. Campbell is moving on from a coach who was ineffective and the Miami game was the last straw. Also I do think Campbell has more character than that.
 
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The Lions were never signing Hockenson beyond next year and if I recall correctly they also have about 70% of their cap space tied up in the offense. They need not only draft picks but cap room to address the many needs on defense. In addition they have more ammo in case they want to move up for a QB.
 
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Adam Schefter

Compensation update: The 2024 conditional fourth-round pick that Detroit sent to Minnesota today as part of the T.J. Hockenson trade will become a 2024 fifth-round round pick if the Vikings win a playoff game, per source.
 
Adam Schefter

Compensation update: The 2024 conditional fourth-round pick that Detroit sent to Minnesota today as part of the T.J. Hockenson trade will become a 2024 fifth-round round pick if the Vikings win a playoff game, per source.
So a 4th rounder, it is!
There's also a clause that says the Lions get Dalvin Cook and Justin Jefferson if Cousins wins a game in prime time
 
Also saving 9.5 million on the cap, have to see if that turns into a FA or trade before grading it just for the draft picks.
Add in the mucho dollars that would have been needed to resign him. Is that where you want to spend your big bucks on a secondary position for your offense.
Trading within the division is risky but you may also sabotage the Vikes with a bad contract if they resign him. The Irv Smith injury on Sunday pushed the Vikes to make this trade. They will be in the playoffs.
 
Hock trade:

Traded up picks in the next two drafts; turned 2023’s 4th into a 2nd rounder and 2024’s 4th into a 3rd.

They weren't really interested in giving him the LT deal (going rate 4-5 yrs for $14-16M) for 1-2 elite games per year. Deal makes sense for both sides.

James Mitchell & Brock Wright it is.

It really does not matter at this point. Holmes should get a couple more years but Campbell needs to go after this season, his act is growing old fast. Wonder how long he will keep the locker room as I heard Pleasent was a player favorite as coach.
Depends if they see Campbell and/or Glenn using Pleasant as a scapegoat. If the plan was to chuck the hell out of the WRs and mug them and that didn't happen, why not?

You can't hit what you can't get to, Miami wrs were too elusive? Or DBs were too scared they'd get burned if they missed so backed off? Did Pleasant disagree with that plan?

You wonder what happened at half time if Campbell/Glenn thought that plan was not being followed.

Lions only had two defensive penalties against Miami. Oruwariye lining up offside and Okwara with an illegal contact. So if DBs were expected to be physical I would expect to have seen more penalties for defensive holding or illegal contact beyond 5 yards.

So why was Pleasant fired? Ongoing issues? Miami game was the tipping point? Campbell mentioned lack of production.

Dolphins are a good team they haven't lost when Tua has played except when he got knocked out early in Bengals game. They beat the Bills and threw for over 460 yards and for 6 TDs against the Ravens. If their defense gets healthy will challenge for AFC. Tua is reported to have the quickest release and maybe the two best WR tandem, Lions were outmatched. If Lions thought their best chance was to mug the WRs to give pass rush a chance, why didn't it happen.

I do not think it was scapegoating, I think it was a similar situation to Anthony Lynn. Campbell is moving on from a coach who was ineffective and the Miami game was the last straw. Also I do think Campbell has more character than that.

Lack of production? Campbell has made more boneheaded mistakes in two years than any HC we have ever had. And that is saying something.
 
The Lions were never signing Hockenson beyond next year and if I recall correctly they also have about 70% of their cap space tied up in the offense. They need not only draft picks but cap room to address the many needs on defense. In addition they have more ammo in case they want to move up for a QB.

I agree they were not going to bring Hock back, Goff won`t be back for another rebuild. So hopefully they keep losing to get the QB they want and the picks to hopefully work out.

This is beyond sad for any fan base to endure year after year.

I actually drank the Hard Knocks Kool Aid this year so I am so disappointed.
 
Eh whatever. Obviously he was a disappointment for where he was taken. Seems clear we weren't going to sign him for what he expected. I get that we could have got a 3rd round comp pick but that would have been probably 35-45 picks later than what we got here. We are clearly going full tank. Hock out. Saying Swift needs to more rest and limited touches. Not sure if see Jamo until December now and even then it will be a light role just to get him some experience. Probably needed to be done but just another Lions failure. Sigh. Hated the pick at the time and so this isn't too surprising in the end.
 
Memory lane, forgot about that. Now I remember briefly not being too upset that we drafted another first round TEnafter that game. The feeling quickly came back however.
Yep, thought we had the next Gronk there. Turned out that year that the Cardinals just didn't cover TEs and basically every TE that played them had a bonkers game.
 
Remember when Hock had 160 yards and a TD in his first NFL game...

6-131-1 in his 2019 debut

one (1) other 100 yard game in his career - 4 weeks ago VS SEA
The above is all you need to know about Hockenson. This is over a 4 year period. The guy doesn't get consistent separation and is not a good blocker. The Lions were never signing him long-term so I don't blame them for moving him.
 
Remember when Hock had 160 yards and a TD in his first NFL game...

6-131-1 in his 2019 debut

one (1) other 100 yard game in his career - 4 weeks ago VS SEA
The above is all you need to know about Hockenson. This is over a 4 year period. The guy doesn't get consistent separation and is not a good blocker. The Lions were never signing him long-term so I don't blame them for moving him.
Cap relief next year and some this year. As you say below average blocker at odds with team philosophy of having receivers who block well. Opportunity to see what they have with Wright and Mitchell.

Not dumping on Hock but want to list positives of trade. I remember him having untimely penalties and looked it up,
Hock was tied with two other TEs for the third most penalties for TEs last year and he missed several games in doing so.
2020 tied for 6th most penalties with 5 others
2019 tied for 7th most penalties with 3 others
 
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It'll take a couple years until we can judge this one. Near term I'm interested to see James Mitchell who got his first NFL reception last week. Pre-draft talk was he could have been a second round pick if not for the injury. Wright seems like JAG to me. Bringing Zylstra back ? There could be deep sleeper fantasy value here?
 
Remember when Hock had 160 yards and a TD in his first NFL game...

6-131-1 in his 2019 debut

one (1) other 100 yard game in his career - 4 weeks ago VS SEA
The above is all you need to know about Hockenson. This is over a 4 year period. The guy doesn't get consistent separation and is not a good blocker. The Lions were never signing him long-term so I don't blame them for moving him.
Cap relief next year and some this year. As you say below average blocker at odds with team philosophy of having receivers who block well. Opportunity to see what they have with Wright and Mitchell.

Not dumping on Hock but want to list positives of trade. I remember him having untimely penalties and looked it up,
Hock was tied with two other TEs for the third most penalties for TEs last year and he missed several games in doing so.
2020 tied for 6th most penalties with 5 others
2019 tied for 7th most penalties with 3 others

Hock would cost 9.2 next season, no way he could live up production wise to justify that. Then he wanted a Kelce-Kittle type of deal. Lions are going nowhere fast anyway so it does not really matter who plays TE. Roll the dice on the #2 panning out.
 
Does this mean the Lions will finally stop using high first round picks on tight ends?

Spider-Man meme:

Brandon Pettigrew (20th pick)
57 g 393 targets 243-2412-14

Eric Ebron (10th)
56 g 288 targets 186-2060-11

TJ Hockenson (8th)
47 g 287 targets 186-2068-14

first 4 years in Detroit

Pettigrew spent 3 more years in Detroit, production declined as the injuries mounted

Ebron spent 2 years each in IND & PIT; Pro Bowl (66-650-13) first year after walking
 
I'm not seeing any info on new Det TE. All I've seen so far is it's Mitchell and Wright. Anyone have anything else on these guys for fantasy purposes eg. one's a better pass catcher? Or is the consensus the Hock trade just gives more opportunities for existing starters and new Det TE's are fantasy irrelevant?
 
I'm not seeing any info on new Det TE. All I've seen so far is it's Mitchell and Wright. Anyone have anything else on these guys for fantasy purposes eg. one's a better pass catcher? Or is the consensus the Hock trade just gives more opportunities for existing starters and new Det TE's are fantasy irrelevant?

Wright is the better blocker. James Mitchell is a raw rookie who was hurt. Zylstra or Cabinda will also function as inline blockers/H back.

Hock played 1/3 of his snaps in the slot and another 1.5 /g outside. 199 routes run in 7 games (move TEs need a floor of around 23 /g to be productive.)

Wright has 42 rr in 165 snaps and 14.5% of the time he lined up as a WR. Mitchell has only played 20 snaps, 17 in-line, 6 rr. Not really enough data to go off from, wouldn’t expect either to crack TE20.
 
I'm not seeing any info on new Det TE. All I've seen so far is it's Mitchell and Wright. Anyone have anything else on these guys for fantasy purposes eg. one's a better pass catcher? Or is the consensus the Hock trade just gives more opportunities for existing starters and new Det TE's are fantasy irrelevant?
I'd wait and see how it goes. Wright was a rookie last year but filled in for Hockenson after his injury for the last five games. 10 receptions103 yds in those five games. but 2 TDs, He's not going to make you rich but again that was his first year. Mitchell should have only a light workload as he comes back from injury.
 
kyle meinke
@kmeinke


Just caught up with Brad Holmes at practice. Interestingly, said he would have made the same deal if the Lions were 6-1. Said Hockenson is a good player, but the deal was better for the present and long term

1:18 PM · Nov 2, 2022·Twitter for iPhone

***************

Mike Payton
@POD_Payton

The Lions are suddenly a team that has no pressing contracts to get done for in house talent. There’s really no upcoming free agent that this team needs to make sure they keep. They’re about to hit the offseason with a ton of money and a ton of draft assets. This could get fun.

2:02 PM · Nov 1, 2022·Twitter for iPhone

***************

Of the 43 players drafted by Bob Quinn, only 10 remain with the team.
 
kyle meinke
@kmeinke


Just caught up with Brad Holmes at practice. Interestingly, said he would have made the same deal if the Lions were 6-1. Said Hockenson is a good player, but the deal was better for the present and long term

1:18 PM · Nov 2, 2022·Twitter for iPhone

***************

Mike Payton
@POD_Payton

The Lions are suddenly a team that has no pressing contracts to get done for in house talent. There’s really no upcoming free agent that this team needs to make sure they keep. They’re about to hit the offseason with a ton of money and a ton of draft assets. This could get fun.

2:02 PM · Nov 1, 2022·Twitter for iPhone

***************

Of the 43 players drafted by Bob Quinn, only 10 remain with the team.
The Holmes era will be defined by what he does with this cap space + draft picks. I will try to be more patient than I am going forward.
 
The Holmes era will be defined by what he does with this cap space + draft picks. I will try to be more patient than I am going forward.
I'm not going to be patient next year.
Fair enough. This coming off-season is key. There has to be big improvement in terms of wins in 2023.

He should get one shot (and probably only one shot) at a) draftibg his QB, and b) picking his own HC. Given the extraordinary patient of the Fords, b) is not a given.

They started out the league year saying “We’re now in the player acquisition phase.” Which brought us Chris Board, DeShon Elliott, Mike Hughes…and a TBD draft class which is def not setting the world on fire.

***************

Question

What would a successful final 10 games look like?

GB
at CHI
at NYG
BUF
JAX
MIN
at NYJ
at CAR
CHI
at GB
 
Carolina curb stomped the Bucs after trading CMC, then lost in OT to the Falcons

Odds on Detroit winning this week? +3.5 (49.5)

***************

Brad Holmes refused to answer when asked if he had the authority to fire MCDC. They both report to Rod Wood, so I imagine the answer is no.

Lions HC decisions have always been up to the Fords, correct?

Paraphrasing Yzerman: General Managers manage, coaches coach, players play.

Pretty sure Brad has unfettered control over the roster. I don't understand all the inner workings of scouting or the Lions internal staff, on Reddit people were complaining about guys in scouting who have been there for decades. IIRC Brad brought in some of his own people from the Rams but i don't know the chain of command in that aspect of his job.

But WRT Campbell, he won't be gone until Sheila gives her approval. Right now it seems like she is still a believer.
 
The Holmes era will be defined by what he does with this cap space + draft picks. I will try to be more patient than I am going forward.
I'm not going to be patient next year.
Fair enough. This coming off-season is key. There has to be big improvement in terms of wins in 2023.

He should get one shot (and probably only one shot) at a) draftibg his QB, and b) picking his own HC. Given the extraordinary patient of the Fords, b) is not a given.

They started out the league year saying “We’re now in the player acquisition phase.” Which brought us Chris Board, DeShon Elliott, Mike Hughes…and a TBD draft class which is def not setting the world on fire.

***************

Question

What would a successful final 10 games look like?

GB
at CHI
at NYG
BUF
JAX
MIN
at NYJ
at CAR
CHI
at GB
win at home vs gb and Chicago
 
Does this mean the Lions will finally stop using high first round picks on tight ends?

Spider-Man meme:

Brandon Pettigrew (20th pick)
57 g 393 targets 243-2412-14

Eric Ebron (10th)
56 g 288 targets 186-2060-11

TJ Hockenson (8th)
47 g 287 targets 186-2068-14

first 4 years in Detroit

Pettigrew spent 3 more years in Detroit, production declined as the injuries mounted

Ebron spent 2 years each in IND & PIT; Pro Bowl (66-650-13) first year after walking

Detroit is the only team in NFL history that has drafted 3 TEs in the first round, 2 in the top 10 and none of them worked out. In reality they were all for Stafford, kept saying Stafford needs more help even though he had Calvin, Nate, Golden, Bush to name a few.

Pettigrew was a good blocker and an OK receiver but not a first rd talent, Ebron was too erratic with drops and could not block, Hock is a weak blocker but good receiver.

In a redraft none of them would go in the first rd. Pettigrew probably a third rounder, Ebron and Hock maybe mid seconds
 
I hate trying to judge potential top 10 picks vs. inferior defenses. I won't have that problem Saturday afternoon when QB Hendon Hooker hitchhikes into Georgia.
 
Remember when Hock had 160 yards and a TD in his first NFL game...

6-131-1 in his 2019 debut

one (1) other 100 yard game in his career - 4 weeks ago VS SEA
The above is all you need to know about Hockenson. This is over a 4 year period. The guy doesn't get consistent separation and is not a good blocker. The Lions were never signing him long-term so I don't blame them for moving him.
Cap relief next year and some this year. As you say below average blocker at odds with team philosophy of having receivers who block well. Opportunity to see what they have with Wright and Mitchell.

Not dumping on Hock but want to list positives of trade. I remember him having untimely penalties and looked it up,
Hock was tied with two other TEs for the third most penalties for TEs last year and he missed several games in doing so.
2020 tied for 6th most penalties with 5 others
2019 tied for 7th most penalties with 3 others

Hock would cost 9.2 next season, no way he could live up production wise to justify that. Then he wanted a Kelce-Kittle type of deal. Lions are going nowhere fast anyway so it does not really matter who plays TE. Roll the dice on the #2 panning out.
I don't get why the potential $ paid to Hockenson would be a worry. Are they one $9.2 million free agent away from making a playoff run next year? I don't think it was worth scrapping a young, talented TE.

And speaking of TE production vs. salaries, I'd take Hockenson over these guys going around the same price:
Hunter Henry, Patriots: $12.5 million
Jonnu Smith, Patriots: $12.5 million
Mike Gesicki, Dolphins: $10.93 million
Evan Engram, Jaguars: $9 million
Logan Thomas, Commanders: $8.02 million
C.J. Uzomah, Jets: $8 million*
Will Dissly, Seahawks: $8 million*
 
I don't get why the potential $ paid to Hockenson would be a worry. Are they one $9.2 million free agent away from making a playoff run next year? I don't think it was worth scrapping a young, talented TE.

Kind of agree, it's not an impediment to roster construction.....could have kept him another year and dealt him with probably similar return.

But we don't see everything that happens in the facility and at practice. We see the end product.

May just be philosophically, they don't like having a move TE who can't block and isn't especially elite as a pass catcher or run up a lot of YAC.

IDK, not worth worrying about. They have a ton of issues and having a good vs mediocre TE doesn't move the needle that much.
 
I don't get why the potential $ paid to Hockenson would be a worry. Are they one $9.2 million free agent away from making a playoff run next year? I don't think it was worth scrapping a young, talented TE.
The offense accounts for roughly 70% of the Lions cap space and they need more money allocated for the defense. Plus, Hockenson only had 2 games with 100+ yards and in all of his other games he averaged about 4-40 with 9 TDs. That's not worth $9 million, let alone the big multi-year contract he will get.
 

https://twitter.com/WillRagatz

T.J. Hockenson on going from Lions to Vikings: "That’s really what we’re here to do is go somewhere and win some games. That’s kind of the first time I’ve been able to say that."


https://twitter.com/WillRagatz/status/1587908248819990528
Remember when Hock had 160 yards and a TD in his first NFL game...

6-131-1 in his 2019 debut

one (1) other 100 yard game in his career - 4 weeks ago VS SEA
The above is all you need to know about Hockenson. This is over a 4 year period. The guy doesn't get consistent separation and is not a good blocker. The Lions were never signing him long-term so I don't blame them for moving him.
Cap relief next year and some this year. As you say below average blocker at odds with team philosophy of having receivers who block well. Opportunity to see what they have with Wright and Mitchell.

Not dumping on Hock but want to list positives of trade. I remember him having untimely penalties and looked it up,
Hock was tied with two other TEs for the third most penalties for TEs last year and he missed several games in doing so.
2020 tied for 6th most penalties with 5 others
2019 tied for 7th most penalties with 3 others

Hock would cost 9.2 next season, no way he could live up production wise to justify that. Then he wanted a Kelce-Kittle type of deal. Lions are going nowhere fast anyway so it does not really matter who plays TE. Roll the dice on the #2 panning out.
I don't get why the potential $ paid to Hockenson would be a worry. Are they one $9.2 million free agent away from making a playoff run next year? I don't think it was worth scrapping a young, talented TE.

And speaking of TE production vs. salaries, I'd take Hockenson over these guys going around the same price:
Hunter Henry, Patriots: $12.5 million
Jonnu Smith, Patriots: $12.5 million
Mike Gesicki, Dolphins: $10.93 million
Evan Engram, Jaguars: $9 million
Logan Thomas, Commanders: $8.02 million
C.J. Uzomah, Jets: $8 million*
Will Dissly, Seahawks: $8 million*

GM Brad Holmes said he would have made the trade if the Lions were 6-1 instead of 1-6.

I say BS!
 
TrueMedia database goes back to 2000; that's 23 seasons (x 32 teams), 734 single season performances.

2022 Detroit Lions defense ranks 734th in EPA per drive.
2020 Detroit Lions defense ranked 732nd in EPA per drive.

(2008 Detroit Lions defense ranked 733rd)
 
TrueMedia database goes back to 2000; that's 23 seasons (x 32 teams), 734 single season performances.

2022 Detroit Lions defense ranks 734th in EPA per drive.
2020 Detroit Lions defense ranked 732nd in EPA per drive.

(2008 Detroit Lions defense ranked 733rd)
So this means they should use their #1 pick on a QB?
 
TrueMedia database goes back to 2000; that's 23 seasons (x 32 teams), 734 single season performances.

2022 Detroit Lions defense ranks 734th in EPA per drive.
2020 Detroit Lions defense ranked 732nd in EPA per drive.

(2008 Detroit Lions defense ranked 733rd)
So this means they should use their #1 pick on a QB?

Or the Notre Dame TE amiright
Hooker/Mayer with the 2 first rounders, RB with the first 2nd rounder.
 
TrueMedia database goes back to 2000; that's 23 seasons (x 32 teams), 734 single season performances.

2022 Detroit Lions defense ranks 734th in EPA per drive.
2020 Detroit Lions defense ranked 732nd in EPA per drive.

(2008 Detroit Lions defense ranked 733rd)
So this means they should use their #1 pick on a QB?

Or the Notre Dame TE amiright
Hooker/Mayer with the 2 first rounders, RB with the first 2nd rounder.

Big Joe Milton transferred to the wrong college.
 
2021 NFL coaching hires:

Nick Sirianni, Eagles: 16-8 (0-1 playoffs)
Brandon Staley, Chargers: 13-11
Arthur Smith, Falcons: 11-14
Robert Saleh, Jets: 9-16
David Culley, Texans: 4-13 (fired)
Dan Campbell, Lions: 4-19-1
Urban Meyer, Jaguars: 2-11 (fired)
 

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