msudaisy26
Footballguy
It looked good, but to early to tell.
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2025 Detroit Lions: 7-4 Giants HC beats Giants..Thank you! (35 Viewers)
- Thread starter Da Guru
- Start date
It looked good, but to early to tell.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
DC is not going to wait too long if he feels something is not working as it should. Nip it in the bud if there is an issue.
TartanLion
Footballguy
What was the story behind Tanner Egstrund again ? As in.. he was the OC heir apparent and Ben had his HC deal done before Glenn did. Weird that he would choose Jets over Lions or was that not his choice to make ?
If I remember correctly, we hired Morton over Egstrund and he announced that he was leaving for the Jets after that
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Yes, Jets were definitely his consolation prize.
I recall hearing something about how there were concerns about Engstrund's ability to command a room.
As for whether the Lions made the wrong choice in bypassing Engstrund, it's pretty hard to say. If Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay had a love child and raised him from birth to become an OC, I'm still not sure what he'd be able to do with Justin Fields and Tyrod as his QBs. So we still don't really have any idea how good of an OC he is
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
The issue isn't that Campbell is calling plays. It's that Morton was hired to call them and Campbell reversed course after eight games. Maybe that was the right decision, maybe it wasn't, but it seems pretty humiliating for Morton, and also maybe an admission by Campbell that he screwed up the hire. Or maybe it's none of that, and it really is just a reshuffling of responsibilities, like Campbell said
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Excited for you to be excited.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
A big part of being a good leader is correcting mistakes sooner rather than later. Maybe him and Morton were not as aligned as they initially thought, or maybe Morton is not the right. You don’t know until you know with all relationships. Either way the initial change produced decent results, hopefully that will continue.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Morton might be a good coach, just not a good play caller.
I saw Phillips have a great game for Philly last night..heard his name mentioned with Detroit at the deadline.
I've been excited. Sheesh.
After last night, they better win next Sunday night. Philly and GB both looked terrible.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Both defenses looked good. People glance right over that don't they?
I don't want to take anything away from the defenses because they played well but a lot of that was because both offenses played terrible and the play calling on both teams was atrocious.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I try not to take too much from just the last game a team played, we see teams bounce back strong every week.
I'm not looking over anything. The offenses were absolutely terrible.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It is the NFL one week you look bad and the next week you look awesome and vise versa.
Buffalo beats KC loses to Miami
Lions lose to the Vikings and beat the Commanders.
Packers beat the Lions lose to the Browns.
Good? Holmes first four draft classes is littered with all-pro talent.
Penei, Iffy, St. Brown, Barnes, Alim, Levi, Hutch, Jamo, Kirby, Malcolm, Pascal, Houston, Gibbs, LaPorta, Jack Campbell, Branch, Terrion, Mahagony....many others are still developing.
Six of those guys are listed as top 100 players in the NFL. His first and third draft classes were the best haul in the NFL. 2023 was insanely good. Show me a single NFL team during that span who drafted better. 80 percent of players drafted in the NFL never make a significant impact.
Seriously, show me a single team in the NFL who drafted better than the Detroit Lions from 2021 to 2024. Hint: There is not one. Much of Brad's genius in drafting is staying put. I think you forget all the moves Brad made in getting Gibbs, LaPorta, and Branch. Yes he moved up to get Branch. I would say that was a pretty good move especially since it was with the Packers who also needed a safety.
Because Holmes does not make splash moves at the deadline that the fans and beat writers want, they grossly understate what a miraculous job he has done assembling a great team.
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I understand. Doesn't changed how bad those teams looked last night.
I said very good and I stand by that. Howie Roseman is great. He has also drafted very well and has maintained draft capital to makes moves when necessary.
This trade deadline was THE example of why I say Holmes is not great. What he gave up for TeSlaa, a guy with a handful of receptions, was far too much.
Those 3rd rounders Holmes gave up could and probably should have been depth at O line and either a DB or D lineman at this trade deadline.
You know who had the firepower to make a move like that? Howie Roseman. With one of those 3rd rounders.
I said he was elite at scouting. He is. Your examples prove that. But there is more to "drafting" than just picking players. It is an art.
You specifically said Holmes was not great at drafting. Show me who Roseman drafted during 2021 and 2024 and compare it to wh Holmes drafted. Holmes has done an excellent job at preserving draft capitol which is evident of his draft hauls. I really don't get the criticism. Trading away some 3rds and 6ths. People grossly over estimate the value of thise picks. The chances of a third rounder making it is pretty slim. They got the guy they wanted.
Like trading up for Branch? Stealing an all-pro talent from a division rival which was also a position of need for them. Staying put and letting Penei fall to them. Ditto with Hutch. Trading back and getting Gibbs and LaPorta. I would argue all of those were the best moves possible even with hindsight.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
No matter how good everyone makes mistakes, nobody is perfect. For instance in 2020 (before Holmes came to Detroit) Howie took Jalen Reagor at #21. At #22 Minnesota took Justin Jefferson. These are first round picks.
I said he was very good. YOU are creating false criticism because I don't bow down to Holmes like you do and say he's great.
I say he's "very good" and you act like I called him Matt Milen. This is getting really old jon.
You want to give credit to Holmes for standing pat and having Sewell and Hutch fall to him? Come on.
Or how great our 1st rounder this year is doing.
Absolutely. It was no guarrantee who Jacksonville was taking. The Lions wanted Hutch bad. There were three top edge rushers available. A lot of GMs would have been nervous and tried to trade up for theor guy. Staying put and still getting their guy was huge. Of course in hindsight it is very easy. But in real time, that was nerve wrecking and took balls.
28th pick. Give it some time.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Yeah halfway through their rookie year is a little early to be judging a draft. What I mentioned was 5 plus years of playing.
Let's start the comparison. The best GM in the NFL
what is old is this attitude that Holmes is not great. If only we had a GM like the Eagles who is far better than Brad. I am willing to go draft by draft and compare...
2021. THE Eagles Draft.
1. DeVonta Smith. Decent WR pick at 10.
2. Landon Dickerson. Great OL early 2nd round.
3. Milton Williams. Journeyman, rotational piece now with NE.
4. Zack McPherson. 1 career sack. Released.
5. Kenneth Gainwell. Journeyman RB now with Pitt.
4 late round picks, all whiffs.
1 great pick. 1 solid pick. No others even on their team
Meanwhile Brad drafted Penei, Iffy, St. Brown, Barnes, Alim, Levi. 3 great picks and a couple of solid picks. Jefferson in the 7th even played and had a couple good games. Levi is disappointing mostly due to injury but he is still hanging in there and contributing
1st year not so great Brad Holmes won by a long ways. People don't seem to understand how good Brad has drafted. They really do not. He has been phenomenal....but he is just OK to some Lions fans. 2022 and 2023 are not much different. Brad absolutely kicked butt
what is old is this attitude that Holmes is not great. If only we had a GM like the Eagles who is far better than Brad. I am willing to go draft by draft and compare...
2021. THE Eagles Draft.
1. DeVonta Smith. Decent WR pick at 10.
2. Landon Dickerson. Great OL early 2nd round.
3. Milton Williams. Journeyman, rotational piece now with NE.
4. Zack McPherson. 1 career sack. Released.
5. Kenneth Gainwell. Journeyman RB now with Pitt.
4 late round picks, all whiffs.
1 great pick. 1 solid pick. No others even on their team
Meanwhile Brad drafted Penei, Iffy, St. Brown, Barnes, Alim, Levi. 3 great picks and a couple of solid picks. Jefferson in the 7th even played and had a couple good games. Levi is disappointing mostly due to injury but he is still hanging in there and contributing
1st year not so great Brad Holmes won by a long ways. People don't seem to understand how good Brad has drafted. They really do not. He has been phenomenal....but he is just OK to some Lions fans. 2022 and 2023 are not much different. Brad absolutely kicked butt
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Howie changed his draft philosophy after that year. He stopped trying to get cute and started loading up on big-time players from big-time programs. His 2021-24 drafts are every bit as good as Holmes’.
ETA: And Howie acquired several extra first round picks during those years. One was traded for AJ Brown. One was used to take Jalen Carter, a generational talent at DT whose character issues scared off the bad teams at the top of the draft.
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2021 was not as good as Holmes. See above. Let's do Jalen Carters draft 2023.
1st Jalen Carter. broke out with good season last year. Pro-Bowl. Very good pick. I am not sure he is generational talent. Only 1 sack so far this year.
1st Nolan Smith. 6.5 sacks last year, 1 this year. Starter. Good pick.
3rd. Tyler Streen. Decent OL. Solid picks
Sydney Brown. Backup safety. Ok pick.
Tanner McKee. Backup QB. Ok pick.
Moro Ojomo. Backup DL but good pick considering.
Pretty soldi draft by the Eagles. But compare to Gibbs, Campbell, LaPorta, Branch, and Sorsdal. Those are 4 foundational pieces who will all see some pro-bowls. Carter is the only pick on their level. Brad again had a better draft.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I understand, but saying they better win because of how bad those teams looked the week before isn't really how the NFL works.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Brad Holmes is the best gm ever and basically invented football. That is what we are arguing against.
Your passive aggressive bs is off the charts. You keep telling us all the mistakes Holmes makes and how he is not the best drafter. I list the drafts picks, i do the comparisons, I show the work. I have yet to see any teams draft class that compares to the Lions 2021 or 2023 draft class in this time frame. During his tenure no GM in the league as drafted better than Holmes. Why is it so hard to acknowledge what an incredibly outstanding job Holmes has done? All there is is endless sarcasm and snarkiness.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Because you suck at reading. I have said many times he has done a great job. He is a really good drafter, but that isn't good enough for you. His free agent signings have been meh, his trades have been average, his mid to late round project picks have been pretty bad, which usually isn't a big deal because late picks are lotto tickets, but he reaches on them by rounds, trades extra picks to reach for them. Which is giving him less ammo to makes trades or less lotto tickets. Drafting isn't the only part of the job.
And that wasn't passive aggressive at all, I was informing Pip that not saying Brad is the greatest GM of all time is not negotiable with you. Everyone in here says he is a great GM, but other than you none of say he is the best in the league and for some reason you can't handle that.
It was just a figure of speech.
Oh now I can't read? I read your 'compliments' of Holmes just finem Every so-called compliment is housed by an insult. Oh honey, you look beautiful but you are pretty fat. That is no compliment. I post facts and comparisons and all you can do is post one of your snarky sarcastic comments towards me. I did not say a damn thing towards you.
Terpman22
Footballguy
Hey guys. Looking forward to the game this week.
Just wanted to correct this here. While Ojomo techinically does not start, sometimes he does. He's taken on the Milton Williams role of last year (The guy the Patriots are paying $26M per year), he's already got 4 sacks, to Williams' 5 total in the regular season last year. Per PFF he is the 8th highest ranked DT, and he has also played the 26nd most snaps at the position across the entire league. I'd say that is starter level playing time as well as starter level production. We basically have replaced a $26m man with a 6th round pick who was a backup his first few years bc of all the talent in front of him. That is all I have.
Go Birds
I have challenged people dozens of times to post all these teams thet have drafted better than Detroit since Brad Holmes arrival. I look at who Detroit has drafted and I look at who Philly, GB, and SF....all these alleged superior GMs who are better at drafting than Brad. I am not seeing all these better draft classes. Brad's success of off the chart. That is not Brad worship...that is a fact.
Oh no doubt that was a very good pick. A huge value for a 6th rounded. Anytime you get 4 starting quality players out kf the draft it is outstanding. Two starters is actually a good draft. But those four starters in whole compared to Gibbs, Branch, LaPorta, and Campbell (who is playing at an elite level) are not as good.
I'd pretty strongly disagree with that characterization. He generally has avoided the flashy, big dollar signings, but he has signed a lot of talent on low-money contracts that have filled key roles, which has really helped the team to be able to afford to resign their elite talents.
Alex Anzalone
Kevin Zeitler
Carlton Davis (OK, a trade)
DJ Reed
David Montgomery
Kalif Raymond
Graham Glasgow
Josh Reynolds/Tim Patrick/DJ Chark
A few haven't worked out (like CJDJ), but they have mostly been low-risk contracts that have been easy to move on from.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
We will have to agree to disagree a couple of those guys were decent, but overall nothing special. Off the top of my head the corner they signed from Pittsburgh was a disaster, DJ Reader not good, Davenport not good. Overall free agency has been meh.
I'm going to make one last effort to clarify this.
Nobody has said Holmes is anything but great at scouting talent and drafting. The numbers speak for themselves.
That does not necessarily make him a great GM overall to many. This is where you lose focus.
As far as free agency, he's been above average. He certainly has not been great.
Working the draft, not great.
Trades, not great.
Let's review the three teams you just mentioned.
Philly traded for AJ Brown. Signed Saquon. Traded for Philips who in one game, almost has the same stats as the Lions 1st round pick this year.
GB traded for Parsons. Hasn't worked out as they hoped, but they took a shot and I respect that. That's MY opinion.
SF traded for CMC. Did not win them a Super Bowl (yet), but they probably should have. We can all agree on that.
The Rams traded for Stafford. We all know how that ended. AND the Rams are back on the same level as the Lions due to great drafting.
The Rams are the example I use when I suggested the Lions trade for Trey. If Holmes is as good as you think he is, he has the ability to replace key players they may not be able to sign due to Trey through the draft. Right? Can we agree the Lions chances of winning a Super Bowl increase with Trey opposite Hutch?
My opinion is Brad Holmes isn't doing everything in his power to win a Super Bowl. Howie Roseman is and DID win a Super Bowl.
Signing Davenport AGAIN and saying "we good" isn't good enough.
I don't think signing Jamo two years early was a good move.
Not trading for O line help this trade deadline wasn't good.
I bet if the Lions had the 3rd rounder we gave Philly (to trade for Phillips), we may have had Phillips ourselves or an O lineman to help a need.
Howie is playing chess, Holmes is playing really good checkers.
There is more to being a great GM than just drafting. That's the difference.
The last thing I'm doing is risking losing pro bowl caliber players AND at the same time high draft picks for a player that MIGHT make a difference. If we did not have a bunch of great players coming up for contract extensions it would be a lot different, not to mention several big contract extensions already signed, almost $1 billion worth so far, all signed in the last 2 years. None of those other teams you mentioned had this circumstance, not even close.
Also, had they traded for a player who has a big contract, you are probably losing 2 of Gibbs, Campbell, LaPorta, and Branch and you're asking Holmes to replace two pro bowl caliber players AND taking high picks away at the same time. You build around your young core; you don't draft them to lose them. All you do is shorten the window and there are no guarantees you win a super bowl.
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Davenport was signed for the veteran's minimum, no no risk, possible high reward. The Lions were never trading for one of the expensive edge rushers because they just signed a bunch of players to big contracts and have 4 more coming. That's the reason people think Holmes isn't trying hard enough to win and I find it ridiculous.
The Lions have signed Goff, Sewell, St. Brown, McNeill, Hutchinson, Jamo, and Joseph to big money long-term contracts in the last 2 years and have Gibbs, Campbell, LaPorta, and Branch coming in the next year or two. They are building a certain way and trading for or signing players to big dollar contracts is not how they are doing things.
They have had several very good free agents signings, but some aren't satisfied because they aren't the big name big dollar free agents. But players like Anzalone, Zeitler, Reed, Montgomery, Raymond and others are great signings because the contracts were incredible value. The reason the Lions don't have to overpay or trade for expensive players is because Holmes has hit so many home runs in the draft.
The Rams did it. Gave up two 1st rounders for Stafford. Won a Super Bowl.
Lost Ramsey. Lost Darnold. Lost Miller.
And here in 2025 the Rams are 7-2 and also have their share of young star players to resign.
Let me ask you this. What's the better scenario for winning a Super Bowl.
Current situation or don't pay Jamo and give up pick 32 for Trey and pay him for two years?
The Rams lost 3 players in their 30's while the Lions have 4 players all 25 and under. The Rams were also an older team and didn't have a bunch of young Pro Bowl caliber players coming up for contract extensions. If the Lions had the Rams' situation, I would pay to trade for an edge. Also, trading for a QB is way different than trading for any other position. If the Lions were a QB away from a legit chance to win a Super Bowl I would do what the Rams did.
I don't think edge is a big enough weakness to trade a high pick for, especially given Taylor Decker's health. I would not be surprised if he retires and that would be as high a priority as you can get. If I thought we were desperate then it might be different.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Arnold still in concussion protocol so Lions could once again be missing 3 of 4 of their starting secondary. Branch might be the lone man standing.
That really sucks because Arnold has been very good in coverage for the last 3 games. His run defense still needs work but I'm really encouraged by his improvement.
Not good.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Lions predictably the underdog on the road vs the defending champs. The line has been anywhere from +1.5 to +3 currently at +2.5, total is set at 46.5. Weather should not be too much of a factor, in the high 40s at kickoff with clear skies. I'll update with final injury updates nearer to game time.
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