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2025 Miami Dolphins - Week 2; Time to burn it down? (23 Viewers)

SwampDawg said:
Another ugly game but even uglier for the Ravens. Whoever was saying Miami should look at Roman as a coach last night should have convinced you what a disaster of an idea that is. Talk about a one trick pony that can't adjust during the game. On the plus side sneak a few more wins and that draft pick going to the eagles won't look as bad.

Ogbah looked really good last night.

Tua may only end up a NFL backup bur Brissett isn't even that.
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I want a coach who can elevate his players, which is hard to evaluate when your QB is a star, like Roman with Jackson, and Gase with Manning. I'm looking at LaFleur with the Jets to see if his offense continues to exceed expectations with Mike White and Josh Johnson.

With a few more wins Flores may save his job. Not sure about Grier, but a new GM usually wants their own coach. 

 
SwampDawg said:
Another ugly game but even uglier for the Ravens. Whoever was saying Miami should look at Roman as a coach last night should have convinced you what a disaster of an idea that is. Talk about a one trick pony that can't adjust during the game. On the plus side sneak a few more wins and that draft pick going to the eagles won't look as bad.

Ogbah looked really good last night.

Tua may only end up a NFL backup bur Brissett isn't even that.
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Wasn't it a little comforting that when he went into the football game, it felt like Miami still had a shot to win the game. I'm not saying he was an improvement over Jacoby. 

Those shot put throws are starting to be seen by others outside of Miami. 

 
SwampDawg said:
Another ugly game but even uglier for the Ravens. Whoever was saying Miami should look at Roman as a coach last night should have convinced you what a disaster of an idea that is. Talk about a one trick pony that can't adjust during the game. On the plus side sneak a few more wins and that draft pick going to the eagles won't look as bad.

Ogbah looked really good last night.

Tua may only end up a NFL backup bur Brissett isn't even that.
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Holland looks like a good pick, he was all over the place last night.

 
I didn’t see the game but it seems like this is the scrappy bunch from a couple years ago making a reappearance. Might it be enough to save Flo’s job?

 
SwampDawg said:
I didn’t see the game but it seems like this is the scrappy bunch from a couple years ago making a reappearance. Might it be enough to save Flo’s job?
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Maybe. But GM Geier might be gone. Even though lots of GMs want their own guy. Too many misses on offense, especially the oline. And now there are 2 good teams in the division, BUF and NE.

 
TripleThreat said:
https://twitter.com/nextgenstats/status/1462512943829037056?s=21

Tua Tagovailoa & Mack Hollins (65-yd TD)

The pass traveled 52.3 yards in the air, Tua's longest completion of his NFL career, and first over 50 yards. Tua has set new career-longs by air distance in back-to-back games (45.8 yards to Waddle in Wk 10 vs BAL).
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I'm glad you're doing this because I can't hardly watch them at this point. You watch the Jets blown out week in and week out by a lot of teams and watch us struggle so much. One thing Tua lacks or the Miami coaching staff is the ability to exploit what is working or going for the throat. Seems like they should have built a bigger lead early on but they allow teams to stay in games all the way until the end. 

The Jax loss is the killer right now. Should at least be 5-6 with an outside chance of Playoff talk if they were to win the next couple games which are against rather soft opponents. Instead at 4-7, they would have to win every game but there is a No 7 seed out there this year. 

We passed on Watson, no reason to try and compete against other teams that will be in a better position this off season to give Houston what it wants. We need to move forward with Tua and continue to add pieces to the Defense. Miami needs more OL help and they need to get a set of balls and find/sign/draft/steal a GD baller at RB that will make the defenses pinch up and allow for bigger plays in the passing game. If Tua can continue to develop it will be better for Miami even from a potential trade value stand point.

 
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Elijah .Moore..remember when I was all but begging for Miami to wait on Waddle and draft Moore who I felt was primed and ready for the NFL...his last month 24/336/4 TDs including a season high of 141 yds against our secondary yesterday. 

Avg 6/84/TD last 4 games, wicked good. 

 
I only got to see the highlights of the game this morning. The deep pass wasn't as awful looking as some on Twitter made it out to be, that said it also wasn't a Marino type laser either. I did get to watch some of the game last night, I'm willing to say at this point we got it wrong not taking Herbert. That said I don't think it was some blatant mistake of a pick, despite the what the arm chair QB's say it was at best a 50/50 call from the experts which way to go had you told them that Tua would heal from the hip injury with what seems like no issues it would have been 75% or more saying take him.  We also don't have a RB like Eckler, a WR like Keenan Allen, an offensive line as good as theirs or the offensive smarts on the sidelines. So Herbert walked into a much better situation.

@Ministry of Pain I was also going to bring up Moore and you hit that one 100%, he is basically a Waddle that could have been had with a later pick and let us use that early pick on a Sewell. He hasn't been all-pro either however so while it would have made sense not so sure we would have really been happy then either. 

 
SwampDawg said:
I only got to see the highlights of the game this morning. The deep pass wasn't as awful looking as some on Twitter made it out to be, that said it also wasn't a Marino type laser either. I did get to watch some of the game last night, I'm willing to say at this point we got it wrong not taking Herbert. That said I don't think it was some blatant mistake of a pick, despite the what the arm chair QB's say it was at best a 50/50 call from the experts which way to go had you told them that Tua would heal from the hip injury with what seems like no issues it would have been 75% or more saying take him.  We also don't have a RB like Eckler, a WR like Keenan Allen, an offensive line as good as theirs or the offensive smarts on the sidelines. So Herbert walked into a much better situation.

@Ministry of Pain I was also going to bring up Moore and you hit that one 100%, he is basically a Waddle that could have been had with a later pick and let us use that early pick on a Sewell. He hasn't been all-pro either however so while it would have made sense not so sure we would have really been happy then either. 
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Sewell hasn't been all-pro but he's been much better than Liam or Austin at LT. PFF grade of 71.9 versus the 40s for our 2 guys. And he just turned 21 and seems to be getting better after sitting out 2020. He was the teams highest graded player on offense in the game vs PIT and Watt. The other part of not drafting Sewell is that we traded up in the 2nd to get Liam, giving up what is now a 2022 3.08.

Waddle has been good, but giving up a 1st round pick for the trade-up of just 6 slots was a bad value in draft capital as was pointed out at the time. Grier is not good at drafting players on offense, or evaluating them in free-agency.

 
SoBeDad said:
Sewell hasn't been all-pro but he's been much better than Liam or Austin at LT. PFF grade of 71.9 versus the 40s for our 2 guys. And he just turned 21 and seems to be getting better after sitting out 2020. He was the teams highest graded player on offense in the game vs PIT and Watt. The other part of not drafting Sewell is that we traded up in the 2nd to get Liam, giving up what is now a 2022 3.08.

Waddle has been good, but giving up a 1st round pick for the trade-up of just 6 slots was a bad value in draft capital as was pointed out at the time. Grier is not good at drafting players on offense, or evaluating them in free-agency.
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I hadn't really followed him to see how he has improved, sounds like he is making solid progress.  Grier needs to be gone the day after the season ends or sooner if we are eliminated before the last weekend.

 
SoBeDad said:
Eichenberg with his best game of the year with a pff grade of 76.3. Maybe the opposition had something to do with it, hopefully he's an improving 1st year player. 

Tua was our highest rated player on offense.  There's still hope that he will become an average NFL qb.

https://twitter.com/PFF_RyanSmith/status/1462798613088808968?t=LULWhz33ho4I9HICmuFK_w&s=19
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I haven't been piling on Eich, I see potential and I like his awareness in general when he is out there. I think he might need to switch to RT but that would be fine and move Jesse Davis on his way, below avg OL that has made a career here basically as a journeyman or 6th guy along the OL. 

Miami needs a Left Tackle and a Center, period. Austin can continue at LG, Hunt at RG is going to be fine, move Eich over to RT, Phins should be able to fill at least one of those holes thru free agency but will need to continue drafting OL in the 1st-2nd-3rd for the foreseeable future on Draft Day.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I haven't been piling on Eich, I see potential and I like his awareness in general when he is out there. I think he might need to switch to RT but that would be fine and move Jesse Davis on his way, below avg OL that has made a career here basically as a journeyman or 6th guy along the OL. 

Miami needs a Left Tackle and a Center, period. Austin can continue at LG, Hunt at RG is going to be fine, move Eich over to RT, Phins should be able to fill at least one of those holes thru free agency but will need to continue drafting OL in the 1st-2nd-3rd for the foreseeable future on Draft Day.
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And/or sign a free agent to a big contract ala LT Trent Wiliams of the 49ers who has a current pff grade of 97.6.  How does one get a grade that high? He had a connection to Shanahan and a belief in the system. We don't have that in Miami.

Eta: was a trade from the WFT. And the 49ers made him the highest paid OLineman in the NFL.

 
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I am actually hoping.....the entire staff and front office is gone. I don’t want this group having anything to do with another Dolphins draft ever again. 

Instead of Justin Herbert and Jonathan Taylor they bring us:

Tua

Jackson

Iggobonne

Brilliant.

Instead of Kyle Pitts or Jammar Chase they trade down, then back up for Waddle....who has not been impressive at all folks. He runs in place, jibber jabbing and goes nowhere. I have not seen any explosion, breakaway speed.....nothing. 4-5 yard catches....nothing downfield at all and when he has been in space.....nutten. 

Complete and utter failure in the draft and free agency.....a constant rotation of OL coaches and OC’s....it’s a joke. Flores is a fraud. Grier is a fraud, the scouting department is a fraud. 

Burn it down.

This rebuild was a complete bust. And I am saying this off three straight....ugly ### wins. We look like a junk team out there. 

And we are on a path to exactly the same team we have been the last 20 years. 7-10, 8-9, 9-8 purgatory.

It sucks. We suck, this owner sucks.....it all sucks. 

Whew......now I feel better.

 
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Todem said:
I am actually hoping.....the entire staff and front office is gone. I don’t want this group having anything to do with another Dolphins draft ever again. 

Instead of Justin Herbert and Jonathan Taylor they bring us:

Tua

Jackson

Iggobonne

Brilliant.

Instead of Kyle Pitts or Jammar Chase they trade down, then back up for Waddle....who has not been impressive at all folks. He runs in place, jibber jabbing and goes nowhere. I have not seen any explosion, breakaway speed.....nothing. 4-5 yard catches....nothing downfield at all and when he has been in space.....nutten. 

Complete and utter failure in the draft and free agency.....a constant rotation of OL coaches and OC’s....it’s a joke. Flores is a fraud. Grier is a fraud, the scouting department is a fraud. 

Burn it down.

This rebuild was a complete bust. And I am saying this off three straight....ugly ### wins. We look like a junk team out there. 

And we are on a path to exactly the same team we have been the last 20 years. 7-10, 8-9, 9-8 purgatory.

It sucks. We suck, this owner sucks.....it all sucks. 

Whew......now I feel better.
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I will agree that some of the draft picks have not panned out, especially the o line picks, but I cannot fault them for waddle or supposedly how the draft went down to be honest.  Draft could have broken differently depending on two picks to be honest, and neither of them were made by the dolphins.

1st pick that changed the draft: The Niners taking Lance over Mac Jones.  Rumors were that Shanny wanted mac, but once the trade up happened people started to second guess him moving up so far to take mac, so he got gun shy and took Lance.  SO far, Mac may have been the better pick so lets assume shanny did want mac and took him at 3, then the Falcons take fields at 4. Sure, they liked pitts, but Atlanta had fields top 3 on their draft board.  So in that case waddle may not have been the pick.  To be fair, the best pick likely was Parsons at the top of this draft but I do not think Miami had him on their radar.

2nd pick that changed the draft: Giants taking Toney.  Jax wanted him bad and if he fell to them, Jax doesn't take Etienne and the RBs move down more.  Would denver have moved up if both Etienne and Javonte were there?  Phins then get their RB but don't get Holland (I think MoP and I were high on Moehring anyway but Holland has been the real deal).

 
Gatorman said:
I will agree that some of the draft picks have not panned out, especially the o line picks, but I cannot fault them for waddle or supposedly how the draft went down to be honest.  Draft could have broken differently depending on two picks to be honest, and neither of them were made by the dolphins.

1st pick that changed the draft: The Niners taking Lance over Mac Jones.  Rumors were that Shanny wanted mac, but once the trade up happened people started to second guess him moving up so far to take mac, so he got gun shy and took Lance.  SO far, Mac may have been the better pick so lets assume shanny did want mac and took him at 3, then the Falcons take fields at 4. Sure, they liked pitts, but Atlanta had fields top 3 on their draft board.  So in that case waddle may not have been the pick.  To be fair, the best pick likely was Parsons at the top of this draft but I do not think Miami had him on their radar.

2nd pick that changed the draft: Giants taking Toney.  Jax wanted him bad and if he fell to them, Jax doesn't take Etienne and the RBs move down more.  Would denver have moved up if both Etienne and Javonte were there?  Phins then get their RB but don't get Holland (I think MoP and I were high on Moehring anyway but Holland has been the real deal).
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Let me tell you......the Phins had every chance to grab a RB in 2020....the could have had Taylor. Instead they take that reach/bust Igbinoghene  I mean they blew the drafts Gator.....there is no way to spin this. 

Parsons is a beast......hell even Sewall is going to be a damn fine tackle. At #3 you have many many many options.

And Devonte Smith is a better WR than Jaylen Waddle......facts. A superior route runner, far better hands. Waddle is a one trick pony and we have not even seen that trick. What play has he broken....what RAC has he really gotten.

This staff...this front office are complete failures on every level. Have they made some good picks? Yeah a few....but most have been blown. Wasted draft capital. Terrible free agent signings.....a total #### show. 

They all need to go. Because this rebuild is a total bust.

Going to the game tomorrow as one of my sons high school/summer club baseball  coaches had extra tickets and asked if we wanted them......sure! Free tickets. He could not sell them. That stadium will be half full. 

I have been watching that OL all season.....pure ####e. They get bullied every game. No leverage. No push. We suck. 

Our QB is a game manager at best with a below average NFL arm and a fragile body. We have no real true Alpha receivers or running backs and as good as Gesicki is.....he is a complete dog in blocking....so anytime he is on the field the defense knows.....we ain't running. 

Pitts was the pick at 3 and we blew it.

Naji Harris should have been our pick at 17.....we blew it

Herbert at 5 in 2020 we blew it

Taylor in 2020 1st round.....we blew it....we could have had him the second...we passed on this stud not once...but twice. Robert Hunt.....average at best NFL guard.

Tee Higgins

Pittman Jr

K’Lavon Chaisson

Justin Jefferson

We reached so bad on those 2 first rounders after Tua (and Tua in hind sight....a total reach but I never wanted him....I wanted Herbert). I mean Jackson.....god what a reach he was. And Igbinoghene....bro!!!!!

What more proof.....do we need to know this GM and coach can’t pick guys? Their talent evaluation has been a total disgrace. 

Time to move on from that entire staff top to bottom. I don’t want any of these guys in a draft room again for this team.

 
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@SwampDawg

4 Wins in a row...

0-8 to start 2019...5-3 finish 

1-3 to start 2020...10-6 but missed the Playoffs

1-7 to start 2021...4-0 since then

-Not sure what we put in the title but Tua missed 4 passes all day and Miami wins their 4th in a row.

-That Jacksonville loss hurts so bad right now and will continue to be the game we couldn't lose. 

-New York and New York with a Bye week in between I think and we're talking 7-7 with @NO, @TN, New England at Hard Rock to close the season...

 
Essentually no elite arm strength and he's not Justin Herbert....who is looking pretty average right now. But does have a rocket arm and dreamy hair. 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
@SwampDawg

4 Wins in a row...

0-8 to start 2019...5-3 finish 

1-3 to start 2020...10-6 but missed the Playoffs

1-7 to start 2021...4-0 since then

-Not sure what we put in the title but Tua missed 4 passes all day and Miami wins their 4th in a row.

-That Jacksonville loss hurts so bad right now and will continue to be the game we couldn't lose. 

-New York and New York with a Bye week in between I think and we're talking 7-7 with @NO, @TN, New England at Hard Rock to close the season...
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9% chance to make the playoffs per 538. Still a longshot but it was way worse a few weeks ago.  Tua's been super sharp the last 2 weeks,  mostly short timing stuff. How good would he be on downfield throws if he had more time, most still think his lack of arm strength is an issue. Yes, the loss to JAX will likely hurt the most at season's end. Flores and the coaches are saving their jobs. Grier's defensive draft picks are doing well, but lots of misses on oline picks. 

The NE game to close the season could be huge.

 
Question from a non-homer but a Gaskin owner:

do you think Lindsay/Ahmed will meaningfully eat into Gaskin’s carries going forward? And what about the eventual return of Brown?

Lindsay had a lot of work, although seemed to be mostly in garbage time.

Gaskin has put up some fantasy stats, but mostly on volume despite being inefficient. Just not sure how Flores feels about the run game.

 
zamboni said:
Question from a non-homer but a Gaskin owner:

do you think Lindsay/Ahmed will meaningfully eat into Gaskin’s carries going forward? And what about the eventual return of Brown?

Lindsay had a lot of work, although seemed to be mostly in garbage time.

Gaskin has put up some fantasy stats, but mostly on volume despite being inefficient. Just not sure how Flores feels about the run game.
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Gaskin is their No 1, they went thru a number of snaps where he had like 34 carries for about 50 yds maybe, they don't see any other RB that has whatever skills they feel they get from Gaskin. I'm saying they would have really benched him if they felt he was holding the Phins back, he does the little things right, like pass block and pick up the blitz, actually catch the ball even if he doesn't break tackles. 

Lindsay is garbage time and there so Gaskin gets a better breather. 

I have no idea what Ahmed's role is on the team and it continues to amaze me when I see the down and distance ad his number in the back field. 

Brown? Who? Hasn't been a part of this 4 game win streak, they should just release him when he returns, thank him and let him go elsewhere. 

 
2021 Draft Class...

Waddle 8/137/TD

Phillips 3 Sacks 

Javon Holland-Intercpetion

Liam Eichenberg- Tua was 27/31, obviously he was being beat around the corner on every snap. 

9-10-17-10...Dolphins Defense points allowed the past 4 weeks. 

Waddle is clearly their #1 WR with what they have healthy right now, I'm not going to say he is better than Parker when DeVante is healthy, but right here right now, he's all we got at Wideout. 

$20M-$25m they paid their WR1 and WR2 that are basically M-I-A right now. 

Waddle has stopped going in reverse and they stopped throwing these little stick routes and bubble screens for all his targets. 

Phillips was left to roam and he was free to grab the QB and was set up by other guys blitzing such as Van Ginkel who is starting to make plays again like we saw in 2020. 

Holland got burned when he blitzed Cam early, he even looked back like "Oh ####, I'm not going to get there in time" and he looked back, but later on he had a big interception and overall he had a solid game. 

Tua...27 of 31 and he knows he doesn't have any time to set up, he's got to get the ball out fast and he can remember those busted up ribs if he holds it too long. He doesn't have a big arm, we know that. He made some good decisions, he didn't throw a pass all day that really wowed me much but he didn't make a lot of mistakes and let's just keep moving forward. He does seem to have a little more confidence right now, he had a lot of weight when Watson was coming here.  

 
My in person observations from yesterdays game.

Offense:

Our OL is truly one of the worst in the league....we are not beating playoff caliber defense’s with this OL and this QB. 

Tua had a very efficient day. That is easy to do when every play is designed to one read. Literally one read. You can’t beat good and great teams with this offense. Anyone just looking at a box score is not seeing what we saw yesterday. 

Tua has a weak arm. And I saw a comment about Herbert looking ordinary right now.....well all great QB's will goo through tough stretches.....but anyone who would not take Herbet over Tua is high on drugs. We will never....ever be more than a middling team with Tua at QB. Plain and simple. He is a great kid.....works hard and can play the game. But he does not possess the elite traits needed to be a Super Bowl caliber QB. He simply does not have them. And neither does Ryan Tannehill. Yes he has done a very good job in Tennessee but when teams focus on stopping the run.....and ask Tannehill to win a game.....he is not that kind of QB. Never will be. Terrible pocket presence.....I mean bad.

This league and the way it is structured with the rules is not a ball control, defense wins games anymore. Although I love ball control, great defense......the rules do not allow great physical defense to be played. Flags fly all freaking day and when all these QB's and WR’s flail their arms in the air and cry for flags.....the game is not what it once was. It is actually quite bad. 

It is built for:

Brady

Mahomes

Rodgers

ETC ETC ETC.

We need a real passing game to compete and get to the top. I am tired of being that team that simply wins enough to not be bad but wins too much to rebuild....and we have a guy who blew the 2020 draft in a big way and is the reason we are in this state. All 3 first rounders are complete and utter busts. 

Do you think this team is even close to being able to go and beat:

Buffalo

KC

LAC

Bengals

GB

TB

God.....come on. We are not. Not even close guys. We can’t compete with those teams. 

I love how the defense is playing. Grier hit on Holland. Great pick. Phillips has some kinda special motor and he is really coming on. Waddle showed what he can do if you get him he ball on time and in space.

And BTW 3 times yesterday he was wide open going deep......TUA two times would not pull the trigger and simply go down field and lead him to easy TD’s and the third time he had zero time to even look downfield. 

So it comes down to this. Next off-season we need to be active in free agency and grab OL. Because we are going nowhere with this OL. Eichenberg and Hunt are the only two worth anything.....the rest are awful. Just getting mauled 90% of the time.

Do we talk ourselves into believing Tua is the answer to a Super Bowl run? I would not. No freaking way. He is not “The Guy” we need to make a move for a Russell Wilson or continue to draft a QB till we hit on one....it really is as simple as that. 

We are still a ways away. Still need a legit RB and another legit WR. Time to move on from Parker.....who is a freaking turd because he simply can’t ever stay healthy.....unless it was his contract year (how convenient) and I would have never extended him when they did. Fuller is a turd. Williams is a turd. Wilson is below average.

Waddle and Gesicki is all we got......problem with Gesicki is......Tua can’t get him the ball downfield in the seam where he excels and he can’t block if his life depended on it. I hope Hunter Long shows us something next year after a full NFL off-season is under his belt. 

Draft and FA focus for 2022:

QB

OL

WR

RB

In that order.

We have a legit defense on the brink......our offense is awful. We are not a legit NFL offense. The OL and QB limit everything we can do to a pop gun offense. It is plain to see.

 
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zamboni said:
Question from a non-homer but a Gaskin owner:

do you think Lindsay/Ahmed will meaningfully eat into Gaskin’s carries going forward? And what about the eventual return of Brown?

Lindsay had a lot of work, although seemed to be mostly in garbage time.

Gaskin has put up some fantasy stats, but mostly on volume despite being inefficient. Just not sure how Flores feels about the run game.
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I think where Lindsay looked a lot better than all our other backs was in pass protection.  I will say the dolphins schemed in a lot of help to double team the weakside rusher with both a RB and a TE, and occasionally they would then send that TE into the flat (Shaheen) to mix things up. He also ran pretty hard but all three (4 with Laird) RBs got in on the action but once they got near the goal line it was the Gaskin show.

I'm not going to get into a war with Todem on Tua.  Some of his passes yesterday were sublime.  Hitting guys in stride between two defenders so they can accelerate and run was pretty nice vs. what is considered a very good passing defense.

I think if we ever figure out our line issues and how to defend vs. the bills we may have something here.

 
Todem said:
My in person observations from yesterdays game.

And BTW 3 times yesterday he was wide open going deep......TUA two times would not pull the trigger and simply go down field and lead him to easy TD’s and the third time he had zero time to even look downfield. 
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I think this is amazing and something most of us cannot see on our couches due to the way the game is televised with the camera always on the football up close. 

That means Waddle is even better than the box scores. 

-Let's also remind everyone his BIG chunk of the day came as the Carolina DB fell down and once in space he took off, that's awesome but not something you can rely on week to week. I still think it would be nice for him to have a quality veteran WR to learn off him across from him but not meant to be this year. 

No punch at RB, no going to take Defenses long to focus on him all the time if we don't get some better weapons surrounding these young guys. 

 
Gatorman said:
I think where Lindsay looked a lot better than all our other backs was in pass protection.  I will say the dolphins schemed in a lot of help to double team the weakside rusher with both a RB and a TE, and occasionally they would then send that TE into the flat (Shaheen) to mix things up. He also ran pretty hard but all three (4 with Laird) RBs got in on the action but once they got near the goal line it was the Gaskin show.

I'm not going to get into a war with Todem on Tua.  Some of his passes yesterday were sublime.  Hitting guys in stride between two defenders so they can accelerate and run was pretty nice vs. what is considered a very good passing defense.

I think if we ever figure out our line issues and how to defend vs. the bills we may have something here.
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He made some great passes......but again....evaluating the total package....this is not a Super Bowl caliber, championship QB. On top of that.....he is soft IMO. Not a guy that can take a lot of punishment. A history of being injured. Yeah sometimes you can’t avoid getting hurt....but he is not built to take a pounding at the NFL level. I hold my breath every time he get’s hit. Oh and is mobility is below average. 

He is accurate on the short stuff, and has good pocket presence. So it’s not like he is awful. But a consistent playoff caliber guy that strikes any fear into a defense? Come on.

Let’s agree to disagree. I want a better QB on this team. When we see what has been taken.....we took the worst possible choice IMO. Herbert was the obvious....obvious pick. Grier and Flores blew that one in a bad way. So much so they were going to pull the trigger on Watson.....what does that tell you.

 
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Ministry of Pain said:
I think this is amazing and something most of us cannot see on our couches due to the way the game is televised with the camera always on the football up close. 

That means Waddle is even better than the box scores. 

-Let's also remind everyone his BIG chunk of the day came as the Carolina DB fell down and once in space he took off, that's awesome but not something you can rely on week to week. I still think it would be nice for him to have a quality veteran WR to learn off him across from him but not meant to be this year. 

No punch at RB, no going to take Defenses long to focus on him all the time if we don't get some better weapons surrounding these young guys. 
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Yeah......we don't have a guy that can get the ball downfield to Waddle. He is so elite with that speed.....yet he has not been hit once this season downfield.

Wasting his talent. 

And it is all not on Tua....that OL is just horrific. But Tua had two clear chances to hit a couple of easy TD’s where Waddle had a good 3 yards of separation (and calling for he ball) on the DB and all you do is lead him and boom. Any very good QB with an NFL caliber arm hit’s him in stride. 

 
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Todem said:
Yeah......we don't have a guy that can get the ball downfield to Waddle. He is so elite with that speed.....yet he has not been hit once this season downfield.

Wasting his talent. 

And it is all not on Tua....that OL is just horrific. But Tua had two clear chances to hit a couple of easy TD’s where Waddle had a good 3 yards of separation (and calling for he ball) on the DB and all you do is lead him and boom. Any very good QB with an NFL caliber arm hit’s him in stride. 
Click to expand...
Fact is dolphins hit with waddle. Teams have to game plan around him and if we had any other functional wr out there with him everyone would be open, but the line matters. 
 

todem: we got rid of our “tough as nails” qb after he hurt his knee (and polarized the fan base the last go round). Tua may be “soft” but David Carr was “soft” too after getting killed by his bad o line. Even mahomes got killed when his o line regressed. (We’ve seen it this year). 
 

would I prefer a 6’4, 235 lb qb with a rocket on his biceps, sure, but therein lies the though experiment. Do you think if the dolphins drafted josh Allen he’d be this good w this type of development and coaching in Miami vs what he got (and the patience of the bills mafia up there?). Do you think this team would know what to do with Herbert?  Marino had “mad talent” but Shula completely changed his offense to suit Danny. You think Flores (or a lot of coaches) would change their playbook? Look at Lamar and Greg Roman. You think if we had drafted Lamar we would have played to his strengths?

 
Gatorman said:
Fact is dolphins hit with waddle. Teams have to game plan around him and if we had any other functional wr out there with him everyone would be open, but the line matters. 
 

todem: we got rid of our “tough as nails” qb after he hurt his knee (and polarized the fan base the last go round). Tua may be “soft” but David Carr was “soft” too after getting killed by his bad o line. Even mahomes got killed when his o line regressed. (We’ve seen it this year). 
 

would I prefer a 6’4, 235 lb qb with a rocket on his biceps, sure, but therein lies the though experiment. Do you think if the dolphins drafted josh Allen he’d be this good w this type of development and coaching in Miami vs what he got (and the patience of the bills mafia up there?). Do you think this team would know what to do with Herbert?  Marino had “mad talent” but Shula completely changed his offense to suit Danny. You think Flores (or a lot of coaches) would change their playbook? Look at Lamar and Greg Roman. You think if we had drafted Lamar we would have played to his strengths?
Click to expand...
No and No and No and I agree with you 100%

We don’t have the right system or coaching staff. Again another in a long line of failures with Ross as our owner. He has never...ever gotten the right “football” people in here. 

Oh....the suffering continues. But I still root for them....I had a great time at the game yesterday....and it was great for my son to see some Dolphins success live and in person. every game I have taken him to prior to yesterday we have been......baaaaaaaaad. 

Let’s just hope for the best. Because man this front office and coaching staff has really not been great. I realize we won 10 games last season.....stillamazed we did....because this offense is putrid in reality. 

 
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Gatorman said:
Fact is dolphins hit with waddle. Teams have to game plan around him and if we had any other functional wr out there with him everyone would be open, but the line matters. 
 

todem: we got rid of our “tough as nails” qb after he hurt his knee (and polarized the fan base the last go round). Tua may be “soft” but David Carr was “soft” too after getting killed by his bad o line. Even mahomes got killed when his o line regressed. (We’ve seen it this year). 
 

would I prefer a 6’4, 235 lb qb with a rocket on his biceps, sure, but therein lies the though experiment. Do you think if the dolphins drafted josh Allen he’d be this good w this type of development and coaching in Miami vs what he got (and the patience of the bills mafia up there?). Do you think this team would know what to do with Herbert?  Marino had “mad talent” but Shula completely changed his offense to suit Danny. You think Flores (or a lot of coaches) would change their playbook? Look at Lamar and Greg Roman. You think if we had drafted Lamar we would have played to his strengths?
Click to expand...
You gotta stop talking about Marino when you post if you ar trying to make comparisons...I have bit my tongue for a long time but I don't believe you saw him in the flesh in the Orange Bowl the way you speak of him and Shula...I could be wrong but as a season ticket holder within my family during that time I find it hard to believe they way you toss his name around. 

It's something that has bugged me for a while and might be the one big gap in why I have a hard time posting with you and tend to avoid conflict or back and forth, I usually just say my .02 and keep moving. 

-I don't think you understand what Marino did when he burst on the scene, many don't realize he was actually in his 2nd season when he faced Montana in Stanford, CA...home game for the Niners of course...oh and Marino also went B2B AFCC in '84 and '85 which of course Marino beat the '85 Bears, the only loss on their historic '85 run and he shredded the ever loving #### out of them and would have crushed them in the Super Bowl vs Steve #######' Grogan. 

-Seriously, appreciate your takes and POV but you're never there when Tua does poorly and that kinda sucks. I could highlight all the nice things @Todem and myself have posted about Tua, Waddle, even in just the last many days but I never see you say much critical of Tua and the Phins, they lost 7 GAMES IN A ROW, that's really hard to do in the modern NFL unless you are truly the suxor, the last 4 weeks proves otherwise but you can't have it both ways. 

And please lay off the Marino takes because Marino did not walk into an ideal situation, yes he had some talent around him but he obliterated record books by LARGE PERCENTAGES...36TD(Blanda) to 48 in his 2nd Season! vs 48 to 50? Marino's records were mostly eclipsed by smaller percentages than when he cleared the bars...do you understand why folks might be a little put off when you bring his name up when you have Tua in the same post?  

Cheers friend  

 
Where does Tua rank since Marino retired? 

Basically, from Jay Fiedler until right now, where would you rank Tua? The only QBs i can think of that were even legit were perhaps Fiedler although that's a stretch, maybe Pennington, obviously Tannehill but I agree again with @Todem that RT continues to show why he has limits and he showed them here but obviously Tennessee is a slightly better run franchise and they have elevated his game but still he is not elite. 

Fiedler, Penny, THill, Cutler, Tua...bunch of scrubs...is Tua the best we've seen since Marino? That's the real question @Gatormanyou want to ask isn't it? It's legit and I don't want to fight with you, would rather find common ground and I think this is a legitimate question. I know many who would say tHill but certainly not when he was wearing Teal n Orange.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty because the fact is we might be looking at the same 2 guys in charge, Grier and Flores, what do we do as fans at that point with Tua likely the starter heading into year 3. 

-Side note, happy we are not shipping a Top 5 to Philly, going 9-8 doesn't help much either but sending them a Top 5 pick would have been an even bigger gut punch. 

 
@Ministry of Pain

I think Tannehill had the best arm talent we have had since Marino. Well….Culpepper but he was totally damaged goods with that horrific knee injury prior to us getting him.

Tanny was a tough SOB and could make every throw but went through what….3-4 OC’s? 
 

Tua has some great qualities but lacks the most important. NFL arm talent. It is simply not good enough……and what blows my mind is our esteemed scouting department did not see that? I was never a Tua fan when he was in college because I saw an arm that would not transcend to the pro game well.

Anyway…..we either need to keep drafting QB’s till we get one or go get Wilson from Seattle.

I would rather they go get some competent OL in free agency, a RB and WR as well and go get Wilson.

Our defense has finally woken up. We are an offense away. 

But I have seen enough of this front office and Brian Flores who has not been able to assemble a good staff around him.

And yeah Marino is a legend and made everyone and I mean everyone great around him. He got it done with guys like Mark Ingram, OJ McDuffie, Orande Gadsen, a out of his prime Irving Fryar, it did not matter who he had he made them all look good.

I can pretty much guarantee Marino would have taken Herbert and never even have given Tua a second look.

 
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Russ looks like toast too right now. He wouldn't thrive with Miami's OL and weapons if he can't with the better cast in Seattle now. Maybe he's checked out

 
Ministry of Pain said:
You gotta stop talking about Marino when you post if you ar trying to make comparisons...I have bit my tongue for a long time but I don't believe you saw him in the flesh in the Orange Bowl the way you speak of him and Shula...I could be wrong but as a season ticket holder within my family during that time I find it hard to believe they way you toss his name around. 

It's something that has bugged me for a while and might be the one big gap in why I have a hard time posting with you and tend to avoid conflict or back and forth, I usually just say my .02 and keep moving. 

-I don't think you understand what Marino did when he burst on the scene, many don't realize he was actually in his 2nd season when he faced Montana in Stanford, CA...home game for the Niners of course...oh and Marino also went B2B AFCC in '84 and '85 which of course Marino beat the '85 Bears, the only loss on their historic '85 run and he shredded the ever loving #### out of them and would have crushed them in the Super Bowl vs Steve #######' Grogan. 

-Seriously, appreciate your takes and POV but you're never there when Tua does poorly and that kinda sucks. I could highlight all the nice things @Todem and myself have posted about Tua, Waddle, even in just the last many days but I never see you say much critical of Tua and the Phins, they lost 7 GAMES IN A ROW, that's really hard to do in the modern NFL unless you are truly the suxor, the last 4 weeks proves otherwise but you can't have it both ways. 

And please lay off the Marino takes because Marino did not walk into an ideal situation, yes he had some talent around him but he obliterated record books by LARGE PERCENTAGES...36TD(Blanda) to 48 in his 2nd Season! vs 48 to 50? Marino's records were mostly eclipsed by smaller percentages than when he cleared the bars...do you understand why folks might be a little put off when you bring his name up when you have Tua in the same post?  

Cheers friend  
Click to expand...
We aren't going to get into a #### measuring contest here, but suffice to say I've seen every Marino snap as a dolphin and had season tickets from 1991 on.  I am not comparing Tua to Marino, I am comparing Tua's situation to Marino. Shula trusted marino from Day one to make the calls (according to legend Shula made Marino call audibles as early as training camp).  Danny also had the benefit of really really good offensive lines early in his career.  His numbers took a hit when Stephenson went down and then went back up when Shula drafted Webb and Sims.

Moving on:  I was never as low on Tannyhill as the rest of the fanbase was mainly bc I saw Ryan as having 3 things working against him: 1) Coaching staff didn't have faith in him, 2) Coaching staff didn't play to his strengths, and 3) His line was also not great. Kid was tough as nails which is something Tua doesn't seem to be but I can't judge Tua that harshly with an O line that is getting him killed. Lo and Behold as the protection has been slightly better Tua has looked better.

My gripes with Tua are as follows: Not tough, so he doesn't tend to run as much.  He seems small and not in a drew brees kind of way.  Brees worked on his body (especially his core strength) and that is what got him through (but let's face it, even Brees had his issues which is how Phil Rivers ended up there. (I think it took rehab from the shoulder to make him rethink his offseason workouts).

Going back to Marino: when Danny worked for the dolphins he had some thoughts as to qbs and what they need to be able to throw in the NFL.  Back shoulder, the deep comeback, etc.  I'm not sure how marino graded out the Tua herbert decision, all I can remember is he liked Flacco back in the day as well as Rivers and one other guy.  

 
Todem said:
@Ministry of Pain

I think Tannehill had the best arm talent we have had since Marino. Well….Culpepper but he was totally damaged goods with that horrific knee injury prior to us getting him.

Tanny was a tough SOB and could make every throw but went through what….3-4 OC’s? 
 

Tua has some great qualities but lacks the most important. NFL arm talent. It is simply not good enough……and what blows my mind is our esteemed scouting department did not see that? I was never a Tua fan when he was in college because I saw an arm that would not transcend to the pro game well.

Anyway…..we either need to keep drafting QB’s till we get one or go get Wilson from Seattle.

I would rather they go get some competent OL in free agency, a RB and WR as well and go get Wilson.

Our defense has finally woken up. We are an offense away. 

But I have seen enough of this front office and Brian Flores who has not been able to assemble a good staff around him.

And yeah Marino is a legend and made everyone and I mean everyone great around him. He got it done with guys like Mark Ingram, OJ McDuffie, Orande Gadsen, a out of his prime Irving Fryar, it did not matter who he had he made them all look good.

I can pretty much guarantee Marino would have taken Herbert and never even have given Tua a second look.
Click to expand...


Todem, I agree with you to a certain extent.  I think when picking a qb you should look for the one who can throw the ball in a hurricane but also one who can actually be coached up to get the other stuff down.  Lamar has an arm, Watson has an arm, Rodgers, etc.  Tua is a "chad pennington" and  I do think that a pennington can work if the complementary pieces are there. I'm not sure we've seen his deep ball (the one to Hollins traveled 60 years in the air so maybe we are both wrong). 

His slants are laser beams.

My whole Tua vs Herbert concept is this: You all are assuming with the same coaching Herbert comes out ahead of Tua.  Maybe, but just as easily we could be complaining about Tua in San Diego with a better O line than Miami, Better RB in Eckler, and better skill position players in Allen and Williams.  Those things do matter to a QB.

 
Todem said:
@Ministry of Pain

I think Tannehill had the best arm talent we have had since Marino. Well….Culpepper but he was totally damaged goods with that horrific knee injury prior to us getting him.

Tanny was a tough SOB and could make every throw but went through what….3-4 OC’s? 
 

Tua has some great qualities but lacks the most important. NFL arm talent. It is simply not good enough……and what blows my mind is our esteemed scouting department did not see that? I was never a Tua fan when he was in college because I saw an arm that would not transcend to the pro game well.

Anyway…..we either need to keep drafting QB’s till we get one or go get Wilson from Seattle.

I would rather they go get some competent OL in free agency, a RB and WR as well and go get Wilson.

Our defense has finally woken up. We are an offense away. 

But I have seen enough of this front office and Brian Flores who has not been able to assemble a good staff around him.

And yeah Marino is a legend and made everyone and I mean everyone great around him. He got it done with guys like Mark Ingram, OJ McDuffie, Orande Gadsen, a out of his prime Irving Fryar, it did not matter who he had he made them all look good.

I can pretty much guarantee Marino would have taken Herbert and never even have given Tua a second look.
Click to expand...
How I remember it...

 
How I remember it: Tannehill could not name the divisions with Matt Moore in a Hard Knocks episode. Lots of "Fiedleresque" ints (but could have just been the OCs at the time). And Philbin making players pick up gum wrappers from the practice field. /shrug

I been rooting for Tannehill past 2 seasons fwiw, but in my worthless 2cents - Tua has more heart and potential.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
-Side note, happy we are not shipping a Top 5 to Philly, going 9-8 doesn't help much either but sending them a Top 5 pick would have been an even bigger gut punch. 
Click to expand...
I agree with most, always respected your opinion over the years lurking here but...

I don't think it matters what pick Phi gets, water under the bridge. SF winning games lately is the bigger gut punch to me.

 
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