4-way tie for the #5/6 seed (1 Viewer)

[belljr]

this is what happens when nerds get involved

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

If there were nerds involved this never would've happened in the first place.

 

[belljr]

If there were nerds involved this never would've happened in the first place.

maybe i guess... i figured the nerds weren't bright enough to know how to play magic football

 

[Saint]

If there were nerds involved this never would've happened in the first place.

Bingo.

Bottom line here is that the rules are being changed at the end of the year. Never a good policy. The rules state six (6) advance. Therefore teams 1-4 are in. The issue are teams 5-8, you have a completely arbitrary group here on FBG that are more than happy to take a quick moment to look at rules (assuming you have some), look at your league information, and give you the answer on who makes it.

Pretty simple to me.

On a side note, add this line to your rules next year. When in doubt, website scoring and seeding will be the final decision.

 

[CalBear]

How about enact a new rule, no team with a losing record makes the playoffs. Do a three-week Super Bowl between teams 1 and 2.

 

[Competitive1]

Thanks guys for replying and trying to help. No we haven't settled it yet and the Commissioner for far too long has giving the #5-8 too much say in the situation. Meaning, every time an idea came up someone would shoot it down. I told him look 2/4 teams deserve to be in 2 don't! For christ sakes they're 5-8 teams they shouldn't get a say in the matter. I believe they/he agrees and at this point we're going to let the seeds #1-4 decide it.. And all along I have been pushing to BREAK THE TIE!!! No nullifying byes, no week 17, no 3/4 seeds in multiple games.. No 8 teams in the playoffs.. BREAK THE F'in TIE !!!!

The problem with breaking the tie is the ESPN site has the COMMISSIONER listed as the #7 seed and just outside the playoffs, however I believe he has the H2H Record tie-breaker won..The league listed tie-breaker is H2H Record. With a 4-way tie that's tough to figure out. However, I pulled the data and while 2 teams played 5 common games and 2 played 6 common games the tie-breaker still says H2H record. Which I have 2 QUESTION's or requests for opinions on this..

1) If H2H Record is the tie-breaker does this also equate to H2H Record vs. common games? I say YES! but need opinions

2) If so does H2H Record also equate to Winning % in those common games? I say YES! but need opinions

If its still unclear I think proposing the 2 vote choices below is the best idea. H2H win % vs. common games regardless # of games played. Or Total Points because most leagues do it that why. Is it fair ? One team will be upset and one team happy.. Look below.

H2H Record (win %) in common games.

Team P .667 4-2

Team C 600 3-2

Team H .500 3-3

Team S .200 1-4

*Team P & C would be in and the other 2 OUT

B) Overall Points breaks the tie. The points order is as follows

Team H

Team P

Team S

Team C

*Team P & H would be in and the other 2 OUT

Thanks again!!!

 

[Competitive1]

Thanks guys for replying and trying to help. No we haven't settled it yet and the Commissioner for far too long has giving the #5-8 too much say in the situation. Meaning, every time an idea came up someone would shoot it down. I told him look 2/4 teams deserve to be in 2 don't! For christ sakes they're 5-8 teams they shouldn't get a say in the matter. I believe they/he agrees and at this point we're going to let the seeds #1-4 decide it.. And all along I have been pushing to BREAK THE TIE!!! No nullifying byes, no week 17, no 3/4 seeds in multiple games.. No 8 teams in the playoffs.. BREAK THE F'in TIE !!!!

The problem with breaking the tie is the ESPN site has the COMMISSIONER listed as the #7 seed and just outside the playoffs. The league listed tie-breaker is H2H Record. With a 4-way tie that's tough to figure out. However, I pulled the data and while 2 teams played 5 common games and 2 played 6 common games the tie-breaker still says H2H record. Which I have 2 QUESTION's or requests for opinions on this..

1) If H2H Record is the tie-breaker does this also equate to H2H Record vs. common games? I say YES! but need opinions

2) If so does H2H Record also equate to Winning % in those common games? I say YES! but need opinions

If its still unclear I think proposing the 2 vote choices below is the best idea. H2H win % vs. common games regardless # of games played. Or Total Points because most leagues do it that why. Is it fair ? One team will be upset and one team happy.. Look below.

H2H Record (win %) in common games.

Team P .667 4-2

Team C 600 3-2

Team H .500 3-3

Team S .200 1-4

*Team P & C would be in and the other 2 OUT

B) Overall Points breaks the tie. The points order is as follows

Team H

Team P

Team S

Team C

*Team P & H would be in and the other 2 OUT

Thanks again!!!

Team P is in under both scenarios above and Team S is OUT..

It's down to Team C and H

Team C wins the tie-breaker by H2H win % in common games.

Team H wins the tie-breaker with Points.

The ESPN default tie-breaker lists is: H2H Record

The Commissioner (Team C) says it's H2H Record, H2H Matchup Points, & Overall Points..

 

[GregR]

If he claims the rules differ from what is set on the site, then the commish needs to produce the written rules that were previously distributed that show it. Barring that, he could give the links to previous years of the league so you can confirm that each year the tiebreakers were as he is claiming.

If he has no proof that the alternate rules exist, then stick with what is on ESPN.

A commish has to be above the appearance of impropriety, and claiming there are rules which help his team but that there is no proof they exist is not doing that.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

If there's nothing in written rules, you go with ESPN.

If his reason is 'that's what we've always done', then 'what he should have done' is produced a written league rule book after all these years.

 

[Competitive1]

I agree there should be a constitution or method to decide disputes. That's how I run my league. However, that is not the case for this league. With that said, please leave opinions on the questions below because the tie-breaker for this league is H2H Record.

Does H2H Record equate to H2H win % vs. the 4 common tied teams? If so we have our 2 teams. If not I'm heading down this road.... Vote for A or B:

A) Use H2H win % vs. the 4 common tied teams. Team P and Team C would be in

B) Over Points. Team P and Team H would be in

Team P is in under both A & B and team S is out.

Team C is in under vote A

Team H is in under vote B

The #1-4 seeds would vote.. Again we could come to a tie and I guess would suggest either the 5 seed to break the tie with a vote or the team that is out....

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Team P is in under both scenarios above and Team S is OUT..

It's down to Team C and H

Team C wins the tie-breaker by H2H win % in common games.

Team H wins the tie-breaker with Points.

The ESPN default tie-breaker lists is: H2H Record

The Commissioner (Team C) says it's H2H Record, H2H Matchup Points, & Overall Points..

Wait, so the commissioner says the first tiebreaker is H2H Record, and the website also says the tiebreaker is H2H record. So what's the issue? Go with the way the website broke the tie and tell your commissioner to stop being a shady #####.

 

[Competitive1]

The website says H2H Record yes. The commissioner says the tie-breaker is 1) H2H Record 2) H2H Matchups 3) Points. However, the ESPN site doesn't appear to use H2H because of the 4-way tie. The way I interpret how the ESPN site is doing the standings is it's using H2H record when applicable and otherwise defaults to Points.

For example:

#1 10-3 beat #2 twice, 2nd points

#2 10-3 lost to #1 twice, 1st points

#3 6-7 split with #4, 4th in points & more than #4 & either way the 2nd league tie-breaker would be H2H matchup points and goes to this team

#4 6-7 split with #3, 6th in points

The H2H isn't clear because of 4-way tie. The site must do something crazy that I can't figure out... nor can anyone..

#5 5-8 3rd in points

#6 5-8 5th in points

#7 5-8 8th in points <----

#8 5-8 7th in points

 

[Competitive1]

The ESPN site only has 1 listed tie-breaker: H2H Record. The ESPN site must default to "something"?

My take is either we use win% vs. the 4 common tied teams or points. Which would be the ESPN listed teams #6 & #7 teams above.

OR //

Points which would be the #5 & #6 teams..

#8 is out under both and is fine with that as long as ONLY 6 teams make the playoffs.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Ties are broken one at a time. First, you determine who the #5 seed is. Then, out of the remaining three teams, you go back to the beginning of the tiebreaking process and determine who the #6 seed is. Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming in. The #6 seed should not be determined based on anything like H2H record among 4 different teams.

 

[Competitive1]

H2H Record is the tie-breaker. So how do you determine who the #5 seed is among 4 x 5-8 teams with H2H Record as the tie-breaker? Do you use H2H win % among common teams, or H2H matchup points would apparently is the 2nd tie-breaker or just simply use Points because that's what it should be???

I get that it SHOULD BE POINTS, however it's not and the tie-breaker is H2H Record.

IMO We can't just change the rules, we have to be fair.. and to me fair is using the H2H rule (H2H win %) OR Points.

.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

H2H Record is the tie-breaker. So how do you determine who the #5 seed is among 4 x 5-8 teams with H2H Record as the tie-breaker? Do you use H2H win % among common teams, or H2H matchup points would apparently is the 2nd tie-breaker or just simply use Points because that's what it should be???

I get that it SHOULD BE POINTS, however it's not and the tie-breaker is H2H Record.

IMO We can't just change the rules, we have to be fair.. and to me fair is using the H2H rule (H2H win %) OR Points.

.

The problem with figuring out just what tiebreaker is fairest is that the season has already played out. It amounts to selecting the playoff teams from the tied teams. It seems clear that the rules are ambiguous. Sure, the rules should not have been ambiguous but they are. At the point only fair way to determine the playoff teams is to treat each of the tied teams equally. There have been three suggestions that all fit the bill while being fair to the top four teams. 1. Coin flip. 2. Extend the playoffs to week 17 and have the four bottom teams play the first week. 3. Have team 3 play team 4 and the bottom four teams play for one spot in the semifinals. I prefer the 3rd choice.

In order to justify deciding which teams are #5 and #6, there must not merely be an interpretation of the rules that justifies it, but an unambiguous interpretation. If that were available then there would be no problem in the first place.

Good luck.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

In order to justify deciding which teams are #5 and #6, there must not merely be an interpretation of the rules that justifies it, but an unambiguous interpretation. If that were available then there would be no problem in the first place.

And in the absence of an unambiguous interpretation of the rules in place, make up some other solution that has nothing to do with the rules in place. /s

 

[Van Dyman]

No way the 1 and 2 seeds should lose their byes.

If they do it anyway with an 8 team playoff I would propose the following.

Have a mini playoff between teams 5,6,7,8 this week.

Team 5 vs Team 8

Team 6 vs Team 7

In order for the winner for Team 5 vs Team 8 to advance, they both would have to score higher than Team 3.

In order for the winner for Team 6 vs Team 7 to advance, they both would have to score higher than Team 4.

This prevents Teams 3 and 4 from having to beat 2 teams, if they lose to both it wouldn't matter who advanced.

Week 14:

Team 1, Team 2 - Bye

Team 3 vs (Team 5 and Team 8, both must score higher than Team 3 for one to advance)

Team 4 vs (Team 6 and Team 7, both must score higher than Team 4 for one to advance)

This is kind of weird, but it keeps 1 and 2 with their byes and doesn't hurt teams 3 and 4 with having to play 2 teams. It only hurts teams 5,6,7,8 but at least they have a chance.

Actually, this is a very clever way of doing it. It actually tilts a bit into Team 3 and 4's favor but that's okay.

I like this creative solution as well. Unfortunately, to do this you'd first have to employ tie-breakers to figure which is team 5, 6,7, and 8. And if they could do that, they'd just eliminate team 7 and 8.

 

[belljr]

if tiebreaker is h2h

take all the games those 4 teams played against eaxh other. the best % is 5 seed.

now start over with the other 3 teams.

not sure why this is so difficult

 

[GregR]

Ties are broken one at a time. First, you determine who the #5 seed is. Then, out of the remaining three teams, you go back to the beginning of the tiebreaking process and determine who the #6 seed is. Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming in. The #6 seed should not be determined based on anything like H2H record among 4 different teams.

Yes, kicking myself I didn't notice they were doing that. Good catch.

Someone wins the 5th seed. Then you have a 3 way tie for the 6th seed and H2H would not include anything games against the 5th seed.

Coming in second place in a tiebreaker for a previous seed is meaningless. It does not award you the next spot down the list. You have to give 6th place its own tiebreaker that stats from scratch with the 3 teams tied for 6th.

 

[Manster]

Total points? Should be the 1st or 2nd tie breaker in H2H leagues.

 

[Saint]

this should really not be that difficult. can you post a link to the team page where we can review? i'd like to see details and then i can post what teams would be in based on your tie breaking rules.

 

[Competitive1]

We broke the tie. The top 4 teams not in this crazy 4-way tie voted between 2 things.

H2H Record Win % vs. common tied teams. Which is actually how the NFL would do it

Or//

Total Points. Which is how many leagues do it.

It was unanimous 4-0 for H2H win %.

 

[GregR]

We broke the tie. The top 4 teams not in this crazy 4-way tie voted between 2 things.

H2H Record Win % vs. common tied teams. Which is actually how the NFL would do it

Or//

Total Points. Which is how many leagues do it.

It was unanimous 4-0 for H2H win %.

Glad you got it resolved.

For the future, you should also read the last few posts that you guys aren't doing tiebreakers correct in general if you're calculating H2H record with 4 teams tied for the #5 seed, then using it for the tiebreak for the #6 seed when there are only 3 teams tied for that seed.