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A Longer School Day/Year for Students (1 Viewer)

School year should be longer

  • Yes

    Votes: 83 61.0%
  • No

    Votes: 53 39.0%

  • Total voters
    136
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
i don't think that works though, i think more of the same thing just produces more of the same thing
Only there is plenty of data that says otherwise. The 'summer learning loss' is a well-researched phenomenon. And it is far, far more prevalent in poorer kids.

If you read Gladwell's essay on the topic, he shows that in a particular study (albeit small), the in school year gains between rich and poor were virtually the same. But the summer drop-off ranged from non-existent (or even improvement) in rich kids to massive in poor kids.

I'd be interested to see a good study that looks at this large-scale, but the data I've seen suggests that a longer school year would a) improve overall performance and b) reduce the gap in learning between rich and poor. Sounds like a winner to me.

And if cost make it prohibitive, give more and shorter breaks rather than a 12-week summer.

 
igbomb said:
B-Deep said:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
i don't think that works though, i think more of the same thing just produces more of the same thing
Only there is plenty of data that says otherwise. The 'summer learning loss' is a well-researched phenomenon. And it is far, far more prevalent in poorer kids.

If you read Gladwell's essay on the topic, he shows that in a particular study (albeit small), the in school year gains between rich and poor were virtually the same. But the summer drop-off ranged from non-existent (or even improvement) in rich kids to massive in poor kids.

I'd be interested to see a good study that looks at this large-scale, but the data I've seen suggests that a longer school year would a) improve overall performance and b) reduce the gap in learning between rich and poor. Sounds like a winner to me.

And if cost make it prohibitive, give more and shorter breaks rather than a 12-week summer.
Sounds like the data says that the summer break is harmful, but does it actually claim the bolded? Sounds like the answer is to differently distribute the days.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
It isn't easy though. It will mean throwing a lot of money at questionable returns. It would be much easier and cheaper to find ways to bring the changes in information technology to the classroom (or replace the classroom) than to make the classroom experience much longer.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Foosball God said:
Also, we need to decrease class sizes and increase the amount of teachers. There shouldn't be more than 15 kids in a class.
And the room for all these classrooms will come from where? As well as the tax money for salaries?

 
Why not let the rich kids get a summer break, but keep the poor ones in school year round?

Oh right, we've got to treat everyone the same, even when everyone is different.

 
DocHolliday said:
The school day seems long enough. Kids need time to be kids and to work part-time jobs as they get older.

The school year could be extended by going a week longer into summer and by eliminating/decreasing the breaks. I would not make kids go year round.

The US should test some ways to improve education. Try extending the school year by 20 days in NJ. Eliminate some of the breaks by 50% in NY. Start the school year earlier by 20 days in PA. Of course, teacher unions would likely stop any of these changes before they ever got started. There are probably teachers that have some solid ideas.
How do you increase the school year by 20 days without increasing teacher pay?

 
igbomb said:
B-Deep said:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
i don't think that works though, i think more of the same thing just produces more of the same thing
Only there is plenty of data that says otherwise. The 'summer learning loss' is a well-researched phenomenon. And it is far, far more prevalent in poorer kids.

If you read Gladwell's essay on the topic, he shows that in a particular study (albeit small), the in school year gains between rich and poor were virtually the same. But the summer drop-off ranged from non-existent (or even improvement) in rich kids to massive in poor kids.

I'd be interested to see a good study that looks at this large-scale, but the data I've seen suggests that a longer school year would a) improve overall performance and b) reduce the gap in learning between rich and poor. Sounds like a winner to me.

And if cost make it prohibitive, give more and shorter breaks rather than a 12-week summer.
redistributing the time off is different from eliminating it

I am just saying, i don't think more time in school makes up for less general concern about academics as a culture. If we want to catch China (do we?) we need to change the culture, and i don;t think any of the proposals will do that.

Cina also has smaller classes, more computers, is not locally run or state ruin but run from the federal government. It used to be the case, not sure if it still is, that the only way to attend college was to get good grades. there are exams that determine your future that you have to take in school. We live in America where anyone can get a chance no matter how badly we blow off high school/.

Everything about education is different. There's follows their culture, ours follows our culture.

 
DocHolliday said:
The school day seems long enough. Kids need time to be kids and to work part-time jobs as they get older.

The school year could be extended by going a week longer into summer and by eliminating/decreasing the breaks. I would not make kids go year round.

The US should test some ways to improve education. Try extending the school year by 20 days in NJ. Eliminate some of the breaks by 50% in NY. Start the school year earlier by 20 days in PA. Of course, teacher unions would likely stop any of these changes before they ever got started. There are probably teachers that have some solid ideas.
How do you increase the school year by 20 days without increasing teacher pay?
Like I wrote, teacher unions will likely stop any of these changes before they are started. The teachers will demand more pay which will be tough to make happen with the school budgets. But, if folks are serious about improving our education system, there has to be changes. You cannot keep the system the same and expect different results.

 
DocHolliday said:
The school day seems long enough. Kids need time to be kids and to work part-time jobs as they get older.

The school year could be extended by going a week longer into summer and by eliminating/decreasing the breaks. I would not make kids go year round.

The US should test some ways to improve education. Try extending the school year by 20 days in NJ. Eliminate some of the breaks by 50% in NY. Start the school year earlier by 20 days in PA. Of course, teacher unions would likely stop any of these changes before they ever got started. There are probably teachers that have some solid ideas.
How do you increase the school year by 20 days without increasing teacher pay?
Like I wrote, teacher unions will likely stop any of these changes before they are started. The teachers will demand more pay which will be tough to make happen with the school budgets. But, if folks are serious about improving our education system, there has to be changes. You cannot keep the system the same and expect different results.
wouldn't you demand more pay if your boss suddenly wanted you to work 6 days a week instead of 7?

principal will, lunch ladies will, anyone who gets paid for working a job X number of days and is then told they have to incease that significantly generally wants more compensation'

hell NFL players are gonna demand it when they go to 17 games

it is a pretty reasonable demand

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
It isn't easy though. It will mean throwing a lot of money at questionable returns. It would be much easier and cheaper to find ways to bring the changes in information technology to the classroom (or replace the classroom) than to make the classroom experience much longer.
Studies tell us tech isn't really the answer.

 
igbomb said:
B-Deep said:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
i don't think that works though, i think more of the same thing just produces more of the same thing
Only there is plenty of data that says otherwise. The 'summer learning loss' is a well-researched phenomenon. And it is far, far more prevalent in poorer kids.

If you read Gladwell's essay on the topic, he shows that in a particular study (albeit small), the in school year gains between rich and poor were virtually the same. But the summer drop-off ranged from non-existent (or even improvement) in rich kids to massive in poor kids.

I'd be interested to see a good study that looks at this large-scale, but the data I've seen suggests that a longer school year would a) improve overall performance and b) reduce the gap in learning between rich and poor. Sounds like a winner to me.

And if cost make it prohibitive, give more and shorter breaks rather than a 12-week summer.
Sounds like the data says that the summer break is harmful, but does it actually claim the bolded? Sounds like the answer is to differently distribute the days.
I think that's a great start, and it comes at a low cost. I agree that we shouldn't arbitrarily increase the length of the year without compelling data, but there is enough data out there that says we should shorten summers.

Like I said in an earlier post, two to three week breaks after each quarter would be far better than 10-12 weeks in the summer.

 
I

d like to point out that all of these studies, if conducted by americans, are all tainted by the inferior educational system that those americans are saddled with, and thus we should question them

we should really have someone from a a superior education system conduct the studies :)

 
Foosball God said:
Also, we need to decrease class sizes and increase the amount of teachers. There shouldn't be more than 15 kids in a class.
And the room for all these classrooms will come from where? As well as the tax money for salaries?
How about taking it from the defense budget?
And give it to the people who run schools? I think a safer investment would be to set it on fire. Less would go wrong.

 
Foosball God said:
Also, we need to decrease class sizes and increase the amount of teachers. There shouldn't be more than 15 kids in a class.
And the room for all these classrooms will come from where? As well as the tax money for salaries?
How about taking it from the defense budget?
And give it to the people who run schools? I think a safer investment would be to set it on fire. Less would go wrong.
We probably should just continue to overcrowd our schools and work towards increasing our standardized testing scores then.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
It isn't easy though. It will mean throwing a lot of money at questionable returns. It would be much easier and cheaper to find ways to bring the changes in information technology to the classroom (or replace the classroom) than to make the classroom experience much longer.
Studies tell us tech isn't really the answer.
You should probably cite those studies then. I'm not aware of many comparing something like a MOOC to a classroom. Or even districts that leverage similar technologies in lieu of bussing students.

The model of education has changed little in decades, I'd rather re-think it than spend incremental vast sums of money on the current system.

 
Officer Pete Malloy said:
Mile High said:
Who's going to pay to put AC into all those schools?
How many schools do you think don't have AC?
My brand new building doesn't, but we don't really need it. Northwest Washington summers rarely ever get close to 90 degrees.

 
Foosball God said:
Also, we need to decrease class sizes and increase the amount of teachers. There shouldn't be more than 15 kids in a class.
And the room for all these classrooms will come from where? As well as the tax money for salaries?
How about taking it from the defense budget?
Navy going to have a bake sale?
I was thinking lemonade stand for the Navy. Bake sale is more Air Force I think.

 
DocHolliday said:
The school day seems long enough. Kids need time to be kids and to work part-time jobs as they get older.

The school year could be extended by going a week longer into summer and by eliminating/decreasing the breaks. I would not make kids go year round.

The US should test some ways to improve education. Try extending the school year by 20 days in NJ. Eliminate some of the breaks by 50% in NY. Start the school year earlier by 20 days in PA. Of course, teacher unions would likely stop any of these changes before they ever got started. There are probably teachers that have some solid ideas.
Miniumum days/hours of school is determined by state, not districts. It isn't something the union has negotiating power on.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
It isn't easy though. It will mean throwing a lot of money at questionable returns. It would be much easier and cheaper to find ways to bring the changes in information technology to the classroom (or replace the classroom) than to make the classroom experience much longer.
Studies tell us tech isn't really the answer.
How did the studies determine value of technology? If it is by traditional pencil and paper tests, no shocker. Did they evaluate how it impacts students ability to productively use technology? I would say that is much more important than trig or metaphysical poetry or neutralization reactions.

 
What % of schools have air conditioning for summer? About 1/6 of our building does. In June/Sep it often exceeds 90 degrees in the classrooms.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
It isn't easy though. It will mean throwing a lot of money at questionable returns. It would be much easier and cheaper to find ways to bring the changes in information technology to the classroom (or replace the classroom) than to make the classroom experience much longer.
Studies tell us tech isn't really the answer.
You should probably cite those studies then. I'm not aware of many comparing something like a MOOC to a classroom. Or even districts that leverage similar technologies in lieu of bussing students.

The model of education has changed little in decades, I'd rather re-think it than spend incremental vast sums of money on the current system.
I always have cites:

Mathematica’s National Study of the Effectiveness of Educational Technology Interventions, funded by the U.S. Department of Education's Institute of Education Sciences, was a scientific evaluation of the efficacy of technology applications designed to improve student learning in math and reading in grades K-12. The study, which found few impacts on achievement, assessed the effects of four reading products—Destination Reading, Headsprout, Plato Focus, and Waterford Early Reading Program—on reading achievement in first grade, and two products—Academy of Reading and LeapTrack—in fourth grade. It also looked at effects of two math products—Achieve Now and Larson Pre-Algebra—on math achievement in sixth grade, and two high school algebra products—Cognitive Tutor Algebra I and Larson Algebra I—used mostly in ninth grade.

A classroom-level random assignment design was used to estimate impacts. The study recruited a geographically diverse set of 36 districts and 132 schools balancing the urban/rural setting of the districts. The study also focused on schools that served low-income students, were interested in implementing one of the interventions, had the technology infrastructure to support the intervention, and were able to implement random assignment at the appropriate grade level. In the interest of understanding the effects of technology relative to conventional instruction, the school recruitment process avoided schools that already used a technology intervention at the grade level.

The study assessed technology’s impacts using two types of student achievement measures. The first set of measures assessed reading achievement among students who were part of the reading cluster experiments, and math achievement among students who were part of the math cluster experiments. The second set of measures used data collected from school records and included such outcomes as student attendance and promotion to the next grade. The study also examined the conditions and practices under which educational technology is effective. The design yielded measures of technology’s impacts for each school in the study. The importance of school-level conditions and practices was explored by relating the school-level impact estimates and measures of school factors.

Data collection was based on five instruments: (1) a teacher survey, (2) classroom observations, (3) teacher interviews, (4) school records, and (5) achievement tests administered to students. The teacher survey was conducted soon after the start of the 2004–2005 school year. Classroom observations were conducted three times during the 2004–2005 school year, with the first occurring in fall 2004, the second in winter 2005, and the third in spring 2005. Teacher interviews were conducted during the first and third classroom observations. School records were obtained at the end of the 2004–2005 school year and contained information for that school year, as well as information for the previous school year. Achievement tests were administered to students at the beginning and end of the 2004–2005 school year.

The Year 1 sample included 526 teachers with a teacher survey response rate of 94 percent. Slightly fewer than 12,000 students were sampled for the Year 1 survey. Of these, 95 percent were tested at baseline. Response rates ranged from 85 percent in ninth grade algebra to 98 percent in sixth grade math classes. The spring follow-up study achieved similar response rates.

FindingsKey findings from the 2009 report include the following:

  • Teacher experience was not systematically related to changes in effects between the first year and the second year.
  • Of the 10 products reviewed, one had statistically significant positive effects. The size of the effect was equivalent to moving a student from the 50th to the 54th percentile.
Findings from the 2007 report to Congress showed that:

  • On average, after one year, products did not increase or decrease test scores by amounts that were statistically different from zero.
  • For reading products, effects on overall test scores were correlated with the student-teacher ratio in first-grade classrooms and with the amount of time that products were used in fourth-grade classrooms.
  • For math products, effects were uncorrelated with classroom and school characteristics.
Now that is just one but I have read many and they all say roughly the same thing. Some products might make some small differences but overall they don't really move the needle. They aren't really the answer to our dilemma.

 
DocHolliday said:
The school day seems long enough. Kids need time to be kids and to work part-time jobs as they get older.

The school year could be extended by going a week longer into summer and by eliminating/decreasing the breaks. I would not make kids go year round.

The US should test some ways to improve education. Try extending the school year by 20 days in NJ. Eliminate some of the breaks by 50% in NY. Start the school year earlier by 20 days in PA. Of course, teacher unions would likely stop any of these changes before they ever got started. There are probably teachers that have some solid ideas.
How do you increase the school year by 20 days without increasing teacher pay?
Like I wrote, teacher unions will likely stop any of these changes before they are started. The teachers will demand more pay which will be tough to make happen with the school budgets. But, if folks are serious about improving our education system, there has to be changes. You cannot keep the system the same and expect different results.
As they should. Cannot ask people to work longer hours and longer days and say there is nothing in it for them. Not sure how the gov will do eithout incurring additional educational costs...especially when he just vetoed full day kindergarten across the state, too.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
B-Deep said:
i don't agree that more school = better school, better school is what makes education better, and better home emphasis. I think much of the education differences are cultural differences with priorities more than an indictment of the amount of time our kids spend in school.
The longer school year (or day) is supposed to make up for the educational experiences that many kids are not receiving at home. It's easier to provide more schooling than to change the broader social and cultural changes that have resulted in some kids falling behind.
It isn't easy though. It will mean throwing a lot of money at questionable returns. It would be much easier and cheaper to find ways to bring the changes in information technology to the classroom (or replace the classroom) than to make the classroom experience much longer.
Studies tell us tech isn't really the answer.
You should probably cite those studies then. I'm not aware of many comparing something like a MOOC to a classroom. Or even districts that leverage similar technologies in lieu of bussing students.

The model of education has changed little in decades, I'd rather re-think it than spend incremental vast sums of money on the current system.
I always have cites:

Mathematica’s National Study of the Effectiveness of Educational Technology Interventions, funded by the U.S. Department of Education's Institute of Education Sciences, was a scientific evaluation of the efficacy of technology applications designed to improve student learning in math and reading in grades K-12. The study, which found few impacts on achievement, assessed the effects of four reading products—Destination Reading, Headsprout, Plato Focus, and Waterford Early Reading Program—on reading achievement in first grade, and two products—Academy of Reading and LeapTrack—in fourth grade. It also looked at effects of two math products—Achieve Now and Larson Pre-Algebra—on math achievement in sixth grade, and two high school algebra products—Cognitive Tutor Algebra I and Larson Algebra I—used mostly in ninth grade.

A classroom-level random assignment design was used to estimate impacts. The study recruited a geographically diverse set of 36 districts and 132 schools balancing the urban/rural setting of the districts. The study also focused on schools that served low-income students, were interested in implementing one of the interventions, had the technology infrastructure to support the intervention, and were able to implement random assignment at the appropriate grade level. In the interest of understanding the effects of technology relative to conventional instruction, the school recruitment process avoided schools that already used a technology intervention at the grade level.

The study assessed technology’s impacts using two types of student achievement measures. The first set of measures assessed reading achievement among students who were part of the reading cluster experiments, and math achievement among students who were part of the math cluster experiments. The second set of measures used data collected from school records and included such outcomes as student attendance and promotion to the next grade. The study also examined the conditions and practices under which educational technology is effective. The design yielded measures of technology’s impacts for each school in the study. The importance of school-level conditions and practices was explored by relating the school-level impact estimates and measures of school factors.

Data collection was based on five instruments: (1) a teacher survey, (2) classroom observations, (3) teacher interviews, (4) school records, and (5) achievement tests administered to students. The teacher survey was conducted soon after the start of the 2004–2005 school year. Classroom observations were conducted three times during the 2004–2005 school year, with the first occurring in fall 2004, the second in winter 2005, and the third in spring 2005. Teacher interviews were conducted during the first and third classroom observations. School records were obtained at the end of the 2004–2005 school year and contained information for that school year, as well as information for the previous school year. Achievement tests were administered to students at the beginning and end of the 2004–2005 school year.

The Year 1 sample included 526 teachers with a teacher survey response rate of 94 percent. Slightly fewer than 12,000 students were sampled for the Year 1 survey. Of these, 95 percent were tested at baseline. Response rates ranged from 85 percent in ninth grade algebra to 98 percent in sixth grade math classes. The spring follow-up study achieved similar response rates.

FindingsKey findings from the 2009 report include the following:

  • Teacher experience was not systematically related to changes in effects between the first year and the second year.
  • Of the 10 products reviewed, one had statistically significant positive effects. The size of the effect was equivalent to moving a student from the 50th to the 54th percentile.
Findings from the 2007 report to Congress showed that:

  • On average, after one year, products did not increase or decrease test scores by amounts that were statistically different from zero.
  • For reading products, effects on overall test scores were correlated with the student-teacher ratio in first-grade classrooms and with the amount of time that products were used in fourth-grade classrooms.
  • For math products, effects were uncorrelated with classroom and school characteristics.
Now that is just one but I have read many and they all say roughly the same thing. Some products might make some small differences but overall they don't really move the needle. They aren't really the answer to our dilemma.
Setting aside the clear bias in this experiement, I'd certainly not suggest school districts should use these programs in addition to their current methods. It would be interesting to compare students using just these programs to using just the classroom experience. I'll bet the results would be similar.

 
Worth a read: http://teacherbiz.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/the-real-agenda-behind-christies-extended-school-dayyear-proposal/

In his speech, Christie claimed that the antiquated calendar that was in place when he was a child needs to be revamped if our lagging academic growth is to be rectified and our students are to compete in the world economy. Setting aside the fact that Christies son attended the elite Delbarton school, which is in session for 6 hours per day for 163 days per year (as opposed to the nearly 7 hours per day for 180 days per year that are mandated for New Jerseys public school students), its important to note that the Governor failed to specifically acknowledge that 2013 NAEP results again revealed New Jerseys public schools to be among the top in the nation. And while there are glaring gaps in achievement among students in the statetest scores are predictably lower in racially- and socioeconomically-segregated areason the whole, New Jerseys children are among the highest-achieving in America. Christie also failed to mention that because of the emphasis hes placed on high-stakes testing, districts have been forced to narrow their programs of studies, cut personnel, and focus too much on test preparationall of which negatively impact instructional time.

 
That's actually a good point. I went to a fairly highly regarded private school 1st-12th grade and compared to local public school we had a shorter school year, shorter school day, every Friday was a 1/2 day, we had many religious holidays off, our lunch was a full hour instead of the 27 minutes we get at public, and senior year you only had to attend part time which meant you got out about 12:30 on M-Th and 10:30 on F. Virtually every kid went to college, we had dozens of Merit scholars, etc.

 
Any household that has two working parents, your kids are probably in some form of camp during summer break anyhow. Why not just choose a camp that has some form of classroom component built into the schedule; i know they exist? Or there's short 1 or 2 week programs over the summer that you can inject into a typical summer camp schedule. I know camps give you the ability to pay for just six instead of 8 weeks. Use the other two weeks for these programs. This only applies to people that have some disposable income to accrue the extra costs which aren't significant but do exist nonetheless. If you're talking about poor people, I've got nothing. They seemed pretty screwed.

 

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