A Ruling On The Robert Meachem Play (1 Viewer)

[cardsharky]

YAHOO scoring

After last nigh's game two teams were tied at 108. This morning the score was 108-100.

Yahoo originally awared 8 points to the New Orleans defense.

Then as of this morning they took the 8 points from the defense and awared Robert Meachum an extra 6 points.

Usually overnight YAHOO will tweak a score +/- one point based on official NFL yardage. In this case my guess is they were relying on the NFL considering Meachum an offensive player.

Note Meachum did have one pass receiving touchdown. When you look at his results as posted by Yahoo of 142 yards and one touchdown with total points of 27. In our league the 142 is worth 14 points plus a bonus point for exceeding 100. The TD is 6 points for a total of 21 points. So they have awarded Meachum an extra 6 with no way in their minds to properly show it.

 

[Lobary]

YAHOO scoringAfter last nigh's game two teams were tied at 108. This morning the score was 108-100.Yahoo originally awared 8 points to the New Orleans defense.Then as of this morning they took the 8 points from the defense and awared Robert Meachum an extra 6 points.Usually overnight YAHOO will tweak a score +/- one point based on official NFL yardage. In this case my guess is they were relying on the NFL considering Meachum an offensive player.Note Meachum did have one pass receiving touchdown. When you look at his results as posted by Yahoo of 142 yards and one touchdown with total points of 27. In our league the 142 is worth 14 points plus a bonus point for exceeding 100. The TD is 6 points for a total of 21 points. So they have awarded Meachum an extra 6 with no way in their minds to properly show it.

Read the thread. Yahoo is awarding the Meachem owner an offensive fumble recovery TD. 14 + 1 + 6 + 6 = 27

 

[30 Rock]

If you're going to awards points for the Saints D then your logic would have to be that once the Redskins obtained possession of the ball the Redskins became the offense and the Saints became the defense. However, carrying that logic through, wouldn't you then have to say that once Meacham got the ball back, the Saints now became the offense again and the Redskins became the defense again? It seems inconsistent to only change the labels of "offense" and "defense" for the first turnover and not the second turnover.

It's not inconsistent to consistently award points to the team that was on defense at the instant before the turnover. In fact, the way you described it would be inconsistent because if we're saying that the Saints were on offense after Meachem's fumble recovery, wouldn't we then have to say that the Redskins were on offense after the interception (such that if the INT had been returned for a touchdown, the Redskins' D/ST would not be credited)? It seems inconsistent to only change the labels of "offense" and "defense" for the second turnover and not the first turnover. There are both consistent and inconsistent arguments supporting each position. Ultimately, neither position is inherently more or less consistent than the other -- it just comes down to how your league's rules read. Asking whether Meachem's touchdown should be scored as an offensive or defensive TD for fantasy purposes is a bit like asking whether Meachem should get a point for a six-yard reception. Does your league award points for receptions? Does your league award the D/ST points for all return TDs, or just for return TDs by the team that was on defense at the start of the play ("Team B" using NFL rules parlance)? Does your league award an individual points for return TDs?There's no inherently right or wrong answer to any of those questions in an objective sense -- it just depends on how your league's scoring is set up.

Maybe I wasn't clear. The only consistent way to look at this is to say the offense is always the offense and the defense is always the defense. Meacham was on the field as an offensive player and therefore gets credit for an offensive touchdown. When you start trying to say that the offense becomes the defense, or the defense becomes the offense, that's where things become unclear. In my original statement I was simply trying to point out this flaw.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The only consistent way to look at this is to say the offense is always the offense and the defense is always the defense.

There are a lot of consistent ways to look at it.1. The team that snaps the ball is on offense for the whole play, and its opponent is on defense for the whole play. (Thus Meachem scored an offensive TD.)2. The team that possesses the ball at any given time is on offense, and at such time, its opponent is on defense. (Thus Meachem scored an offensive TD -- and there is no such thing as a defensive TD.)3. The team that snaps the ball begins the play on offense and its opponent begins the play on defense, and those designations remain if there are no turnovers on that play. Immediately after any given turnover, the team that gains possession of the ball via that turnover is the defense and its opponent is the offense. (Thus Meachem scored a defensive TD.)4. The team that snaps the ball begins the play on offense and its opponent begins the play on defense, and those designations remain if there are no turnovers on that play. Immediately after any given turnover, both teams are on defense, and neither team is on offense. (Thus Meachem scored a defensive TD. This was big0mar's suggestion from earlier in the thread.)5. "Offense" and "defense" don't matter -- return TDs are always credited to the D/ST and not to the individual player. (Thus the Saints D/ST gets points but Meachem doesn't.)6. "Offense" and "defense" don't matter -- return TDs are always credited to the D/ST as well as to the individual player. (Thus the Saints D/ST and Meachem both get points.)And so on . . .

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

5. "Offense" and "defense" don't matter -- return TDs are always credited to the D/ST and not to the individual player. (Thus the Saints D/ST gets points but Meachem doesn't.)6. "Offense" and "defense" don't matter -- return TDs are always credited to the D/ST as well as to the individual player. (Thus the Saints D/ST and Meachem both get points.)

By the way, I really prefer this sort of scoring based on what was done rather than on who did it. It solves all kinds of problems, including interceptions by Randy Moss, touchdown receptions on fake field goals, touchdown runs by William "the Refrigerator" Perry, and extra points kicked by Chad Ochocinco.Rushing TDs, passing TDs, and receiving TDs are always credited to the individual player and not to the team defense/special teams -- whether they came on a fake field goal or not.Return TDs are always credited to the team defense/special teams -- whether done by an offensive player or not. (Alternatively, offensive returns and defensive returns can be handled differently. But it would still depend on what happened, not who did it.)Interceptions are always credited to the defense/special teams and not to an individual player, regardless of his position. (Or, in the case of IDP leagues, they are always credited to the individual player regardless of position.)Field goals are always credited to the person who kicked them -- whether he is listed as a kicker on the roster or not.Etc.That's certainly not the only valid way to do things, but it seems neater to me, and I like neatness.

 

[oso diablo]

does the same logic prevail for the Meacham fumble recovery as for his TD?I have to make a ruling that determines our regular season champion, and it hinges on those 2 points that were awarded to the Saints DST for the fumble recovery by Meacham. We use MFL and they rightly don't award the Saints a defensive TD, but they ARE giving them the fumble points, pointing to system limitations.

Are you sure MFL is crediting Meachem's fumble, or are they crediting the muffed punt before the end of the first half?

yes. MFL covers this dichotomy in their blog. The Saints DST does NOT get 6 points for the TD, but they ARE getting points for the fumble recovery by Meacham on this play. If i use the logic about change of possession, then the fumble points make sense.if i use the logic about "the defense is on the sidelines", then the fumble points do NOT make sense.

 

[KyleBasa]

In early September, when you sit down with your friends and draft your teams, how do you evaluate your defenses? Do you consider how well the WRs on a particular team can strip the interceptors' before making the pick for a team defense? Probably not. You pick a defense based on the defensive and special teams personnel, period.

Any freak plays such as Meachem's should not benefit a team D/ST, because the team owner did not draft the D/ST with that in mind. Do not reward an owner of a D/ST for a fluke. Reward the Meachem owner for his player's football ability and tenacity.

Points go to Meachem, not the NO D/ST.

 

[TWP]

In early September, when you sit down with your friends and draft your teams, how do you evaluate your defenses? Do you consider how well the WRs on a particular team can strip the interceptors' before making the pick for a team defense? Probably not. You pick a defense based on the defensive and special teams personnel, period.

On the contrary. I spend the due amount of time evaluating each team's WR chance to score in a way that occurs once every six years, knowing full well that if they do so I will receive the TD for my DST. I assume everyone else also spends this appropriate amount of time on this analysis.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

In early September, when you sit down with your friends and draft your teams, how do you evaluate your defenses? Do you consider how well the WRs on a particular team can strip the interceptors' before making the pick for a team defense? Probably not.

You should consider everything.Be on the lookout for Bruce Henderson's Offensive Fumble-Recovery Dominator app next offseason.

 

[KyleBasa]

In early September, when you sit down with your friends and draft your teams, how do you evaluate your defenses? Do you consider how well the WRs on a particular team can strip the interceptors' before making the pick for a team defense? Probably not. You pick a defense based on the defensive and special teams personnel, period.

On the contrary. I spend the due amount of time evaluating each team's WR chance to score in a way that occurs once every six years, knowing full well that if they do so I will receive the TD for my DST. I assume everyone else also spends this appropriate amount of time on this analysis.

I guess I need to step up my research next off-season.

 

[30 Rock]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The only consistent way to look at this is to say the offense is always the offense and the defense is always the defense.

There are a lot of consistent ways to look at it.1. The team that snaps the ball is on offense for the whole play, and its opponent is on defense for the whole play. (Thus Meachem scored an offensive TD.)2. The team that possesses the ball at any given time is on offense, and at such time, its opponent is on defense. (Thus Meachem scored an offensive TD -- and there is no such thing as a defensive TD.)3. The team that snaps the ball begins the play on offense and its opponent begins the play on defense, and those designations remain if there are no turnovers on that play. Immediately after any given turnover, the team that gains possession of the ball via that turnover is the defense and its opponent is the offense. (Thus Meachem scored a defensive TD.)4. The team that snaps the ball begins the play on offense and its opponent begins the play on defense, and those designations remain if there are no turnovers on that play. Immediately after any given turnover, both teams are on defense, and neither team is on offense. (Thus Meachem scored a defensive TD. This was big0mar's suggestion from earlier in the thread.)5. "Offense" and "defense" don't matter -- return TDs are always credited to the D/ST and not to the individual player. (Thus the Saints D/ST gets points but Meachem doesn't.)6. "Offense" and "defense" don't matter -- return TDs are always credited to the D/ST as well as to the individual player. (Thus the Saints D/ST and Meachem both get points.)And so on . . .

1. Seems consistent to me.2. If your league allows defensive touchdowns, as does mine, then this is inconsistent.3. You explanation makes no sense. Immediately after the second turnover the Saints gained possession of the ball and were therefore on offense, meaning Meachem scored an offensive TD. Or what is your explanation for counting the first turnover but not the second one?4. Both teams are on defense? If both teams can be on defense, then why can't both teams also be on offense? Both teams are trying to defend their end zones, and both teams are trying to get into their opponents' end zones. Why does it make sense to say that when the Redskins defender got the ball and tried to get into the Saints end zone that he was still a defender? At that point he wasn't defending his end zone anymore, he was trying to get into the opponents end zone just like any offensive player would. If you're going to say that a player can switch from offense to defense on a given play, then to be consistent you need to also say that a player can switch from defense to offense on a given play. This would mean every touchdown is an offensive one and no touchdowns are defensive ones, which clearly isn't the intent of a league that allows scoring for defensive touchdowns.5. Seems consistent as far as removing the offense and defense labels. However, if Brees drops the ball and Meachem picks it up and runs for a touchdown, would you agree that Meachem deserves credit for an offensive touchdown? Why does it matter who dropped the ball? Also, did the coach put Meachem on the field as an offensive or a defensive player? If you say offensive, or both, then Meachem should get credit for the score. If you say defensive, well then 6. If your league allows individual D/ST players to get points for touchdowns, then maybe this makes sense if you're comfortable thinking of receivers as defensive players. However, if a player on your team scores a touchdown on a punt return and your league doesn't already award you points for that, then I don't see how you could get individual points for a touchdown after a fumble recovery.

 

[big0mar]

I'll never understand it either, and for the life of me I'm puzzled by those that argue for it to be a DT/ST score. When the ball is snapped, the players are either defense or offense, this is nuts saying offense became defense. CBS would have been better served to say they were Disqualifying the play from scoring, and advised all Leagues to handle on their own.

By definition, you cannot score if you are the defender. The defender is defending his endzone. A defensive TD is a TD scored by someone who at some point was a defender, then during the course of the play, became offensive.

 

[Emerson Biggens]

The McCardell play in 2003 final verdict by yahoo was to award TB defense the fumble recovery and the touchdown. I know because I lost that week due to that ruling (by 4 points) and that one loss ended up costing me our regular season championship, which in our league is the big trophy. They actually awarded the points to TB defense Monday night, took them away on Tuesday, and re-awarded them Thursday.

Yahoo as of now awarded them on Monday, took them away on Tuesday, and .....

I'm going to be pissed if they're not consistent with this and give the points to the defense. I don't agree with it, and didn't back then, I just think the precedent has been set and they need to be consistent. CBS still has NO defense with the DFR and DTD as of now, opposite of how yahoo has it right now.

This ruling is the difference between one team or another team getting in our playoffs.

 

[big0mar]

In early September, when you sit down with your friends and draft your teams, how do you evaluate your defenses? Do you consider how well the WRs on a particular team can strip the interceptors' before making the pick for a team defense? Probably not. You pick a defense based on the defensive and special teams personnel, period.

Any freak plays such as Meachem's should not benefit a team D/ST, because the team owner did not draft the D/ST with that in mind. Do not reward an owner of a D/ST for a fluke. Reward the Meachem owner for his player's football ability and tenacity.

Points go to Meachem, not the NO D/ST.

What about when Randy Moss comes in to defend a hail mary?WTF are you talking about? Freak plays happen all the time. Does anyone really scout how good teams are at defending missed field goal returns? Should Brandon Stokely lose his fluke TD?

Meachem said it himself, he hears Gregg Williams in practice every day, telling his defense to strip the ball. The defense has every right to be rewarded.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Meachem said it himself, he hears Gregg Williams in practice every day, telling his defense to strip the ball. The defense has every right to be rewarded.

At the expense of Meachem?

 

[big0mar]

Meachem said it himself, he hears Gregg Williams in practice every day, telling his defense to strip the ball. The defense has every right to be rewarded.

At the expense of Meachem?

Meachem should get the points as well. Just like if it was a return.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Meachem said it himself, he hears Gregg Williams in practice every day, telling his defense to strip the ball. The defense has every right to be rewarded.

At the expense of Meachem?

Meachem should get the points as well. Just like if it was a return.

I'm down with that.Now, do you deduct 2 points from the Washington D/ST for losing a fumble?

 

[EzCrash]

OMG 0mar.

Are you REALLY that dense ?

"Then how in the world do you define who the NO D/ST is, if not by their defense of their endzone?"

Um, you know, those guys who trot out on the field when the other team is in possession of the football ?

Oh, and this is Fantasy Football. Just FYI. So I don't give a rat's posterior how the NFL Officially scores it.

If you had the New Orleans DEFENSE AND SPECIAL TEAMS you are aware that the "players" that you collectively have on your fictitious "Fantasy Football" team were NOT .... I repeat for those with thick skulls .... your "players" were NOT on the field at the time all this happened.

If you don't understand that then you really must have issues in life defining reality. If I see something and you don't, does that mean that it exists in my world and not your's or does it mean I am crazy ? Are you crazy because you can't see it ? What if I see it and no one else can ? Do I have some kind of perception of a parallel universe ?

Look dude, sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade.

 

[Wu-banger]

Kinda weird/lazy that people are relyiing soley on whatever website is hosting your league to score such a play. Your league needs to have rules regarding these events especially since they happened before.

FWIW My league scores the TD for Meachem under the premise that the unit that is designated on the field presnap is the unit that remains on the field till the play is over.

 

[bollocks28]

Kinda weird/lazy that people are relyiing soley on whatever website is hosting your league to score such a play. Your league needs to have rules regarding these events especially since they happened before.FWIW My league scores the TD for Meachem under the premise that the unit that is designated on the field presnap is the unit that remains on the field till the play is over.

I am curious about your scoring. If team A turns the ball over to team B and team B scores on that play, is Team A's D/ST penalized for the points against? Ours is and I take issue with it.

 

[big0mar]

Meachem said it himself, he hears Gregg Williams in practice every day, telling his defense to strip the ball. The defense has every right to be rewarded.

At the expense of Meachem?

Meachem should get the points as well. Just like if it was a return.

I'm down with that.Now, do you deduct 2 points from the Washington D/ST for losing a fumble?

Yes.

 

[big0mar]

OMG 0mar.

Are you REALLY that dense ?

"Then how in the world do you define who the NO D/ST is, if not by their defense of their endzone?"

Um, you know, those guys who trot out on the field when the other team is in possession of the football ?

Oh, and this is Fantasy Football. Just FYI. So I don't give a rat's posterior how the NFL Officially scores it.

If you had the New Orleans DEFENSE AND SPECIAL TEAMS you are aware that the "players" that you collectively have on your fictitious "Fantasy Football" team were NOT .... I repeat for those with thick skulls .... your "players" were NOT on the field at the time all this happened.

If you don't understand that then you really must have issues in life defining reality. If I see something and you don't, does that mean that it exists in my world and not your's or does it mean I am crazy ? Are you crazy because you can't see it ? What if I see it and no one else can ? Do I have some kind of perception of a parallel universe ?

Look dude, sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade.

Well, the NFL disagrees with you. I'm not sure how your league scores things, my league goes by NFL official scoring.Do fantasy players in your league challenge bad spots too? Incompletions?

 

[30 Rock]

Does anyone have a summary of how various sites like Yahoo, ESPN, MFL, etc., are scoring this play? I have been searching and can't find anything.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Meachem, by rule, is an offensive player on the field until the play has ended. Bottom line.

From the NFL rulebook Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1: "Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense." The rule, along with Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2, states: "The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its opponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammates as A2, A3, etc… Opponents are B1, B2, etc… The rule goes on state through notation: "A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession."

Your own quote refutes your claim. "Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense." When the Skins intercepted, Meachem became a defender. Just because he never became on 'Team B' which is the team that did not put the ball into play, does not mean that he did not become a defender or a member of the Saint DST.

Team A remains Team A until the down ends. The Saints, remain on offense until the down ends.

Finish reading the rule....specifically the bolded part. The rule states that Team A and Offense are not the same thing.

 

[austinke]

MFL, Rtsports, ESPN, Yahoo - consider this an offensive fumble recovery TD with points to the player, and _not_ to the Saints defense.

CBS Sports and Fanball - consider this an Saints defensive TD

All of the sites - offer the ability to manually override this, as you see fit, according to your own interpretation of your own league rules.

don't know about anyone else.

 

[30 Rock]

MFL, Rtsports, ESPN, Yahoo - consider this an offensive fumble recovery TD with points to the player, and _not_ to the Saints defense.

CBS Sports and Fanball - consider this an Saints defensive TD

All of the sites - offer the ability to manually override this, as you see fit, according to your own interpretation of your own league rules.

don't know about anyone else.

Also add Fantasy Commissioner to the first category (offensive fumble recovery TD for the player, not the Saints D).http://www.webleaguemanager.com/faq-stats.html#s16

 

[PoolShark]

IF THE OFFENSE LOSES POSSESSION, THEN THE DEFENSE THAT GAINED POSSESSION SUBSEQUENTLY LOSES POSSESSION BACK TO THE OFFENSE AND THE OFFENSE SCORES, WHO SHOULD GET THE FANTASY POINTS?

This is born out of the infamous Keenan McCardell Monday Night Football fumble recovery touchdown. We have a full discussion of that play at here, but here are the general principles.



An offensive team is an offensive team and a defensive team is a defensive team. A change in possession does not change that or by definition, we could never have defensive touchdowns. As soon as the defensive team came into possession of the ball, they would become the offensive team. To think that designation changes at the time of a change of possession simply defies logic the way we play the game.

The bolded is all you need to know. The player started that play on OFFENSE, therefore everything he does is part of an OFFENSIVE play.

What he said. All you idiots arguing that the Saints D should get points need to wake up. The "logic" that CBS & ESPN are applying in favor of the Saints D is not only ridiculous, but it essentially means there would NEVER be a fantasy defensive TD. Its absurd.... wake up!

(for the record, I don't own the Saints D, wasnt playing against them & the points theyre getting {or not} mean nothing to me on a fantasy level)

It's just COMMON SENSE!

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

All you idiots arguing that the Saints D should get points need to wake up. The "logic" that CBS & ESPN are applying in favor of the Saints D is not only ridiculous, but it essentially means there would NEVER be a fantasy defensive TD.

Scoring Meachem's play as a fantasy defensive TD essentially means there will never be a fantasy defensive TD? I'm not sure that follows.

 

[PoolShark]

All you idiots arguing that the Saints D should get points need to wake up. The "logic" that CBS & ESPN are applying in favor of the Saints D is not only ridiculous, but it essentially means there would NEVER be a fantasy defensive TD.

Scoring Meachem's play as a fantasy defensive TD essentially means there will never be a fantasy defensive TD? I'm not sure that follows.

Ok, here's the logic applied by CBS (and I assume ESPN).... Once possession changes, the offense becomes defense and the defense becomes offense. So the Saints turn it over & they become defense. Meachum takes the ball away (another turnover, now making the Saints offense again) and winds up scoring. But he's on offense again. Once Meachum gets the ball back, they are now back on offense, therefore he scores an offensive TD. I could see (an idiotic) argument that the Saints D should get credit for a defensive fumble recovery (based on CBS/ESPN logic), but using that very same logic when Meachum scored he was back on "offense" therefore no defensive TD. By that same logic, ANY time a team turns the ball over, the original defensive unit should get credit for the turnover, but then they become offense and any resulting TD is offensive, NOT defensive. It's a situation where the wording of the NFL rules do not realistically correlate to fantasy football.

 

[TWP]

All you idiots arguing that the Saints D should get points need to wake up. The "logic" that CBS & ESPN are applying in favor of the Saints D is not only ridiculous, but it essentially means there would NEVER be a fantasy defensive TD.

Scoring Meachem's play as a fantasy defensive TD essentially means there will never be a fantasy defensive TD? I'm not sure that follows.

Ok, here's the logic applied by CBS (and I assume ESPN).... Once possession changes, the offense becomes defense and the defense becomes offense. So the Saints turn it over & they become defense. Meachum takes the ball away (another turnover, now making the Saints offense again) and winds up scoring. But he's on offense again. Once Meachum gets the ball back, they are now back on offense, therefore he scores an offensive TD. I could see (an idiotic) argument that the Saints D should get credit for a defensive fumble recovery (based on CBS/ESPN logic), but using that very same logic when Meachum scored he was back on "offense" therefore no defensive TD. By that same logic, ANY time a team turns the ball over, the original defensive unit should get credit for the turnover, but then they become offense and any resulting TD is offensive, NOT defensive. It's a situation where the wording of the NFL rules do not realistically correlate to fantasy football.

Oh this is so painful. Please read the thread before rehashing the same very wrong arguments. The argument is not that it is a Saints D TD because he was on defense WHEN HE SCORED. The argument is that it is a Saints D TD because he was on defense BEFORE HE GOT THE BALL. Just like every other Defensive TD in Fantasy Football.

 

[austinke]

for the record, only CBS and Fanball are scoring this as a Saints defensive TD. All of the other sites that I'm aware of, including:

-MyFantasyLeague.com

-Rtsports.com

-Yahoo

-ESPN

-Webleaguemanager.com

are scoring this as an offensive fumble recovery touchdown.

 

[PoolShark]

All you idiots arguing that the Saints D should get points need to wake up. The "logic" that CBS & ESPN are applying in favor of the Saints D is not only ridiculous, but it essentially means there would NEVER be a fantasy defensive TD.

Scoring Meachem's play as a fantasy defensive TD essentially means there will never be a fantasy defensive TD? I'm not sure that follows.

Ok, here's the logic applied by CBS (and I assume ESPN).... Once possession changes, the offense becomes defense and the defense becomes offense. So the Saints turn it over & they become defense. Meachum takes the ball away (another turnover, now making the Saints offense again) and winds up scoring. But he's on offense again. Once Meachum gets the ball back, they are now back on offense, therefore he scores an offensive TD. I could see (an idiotic) argument that the Saints D should get credit for a defensive fumble recovery (based on CBS/ESPN logic), but using that very same logic when Meachum scored he was back on "offense" therefore no defensive TD. By that same logic, ANY time a team turns the ball over, the original defensive unit should get credit for the turnover, but then they become offense and any resulting TD is offensive, NOT defensive. It's a situation where the wording of the NFL rules do not realistically correlate to fantasy football.

Oh this is so painful. Please read the thread before rehashing the same very wrong arguments. The argument is not that it is a Saints D TD because he was on defense WHEN HE SCORED. The argument is that it is a Saints D TD because he was on defense BEFORE HE GOT THE BALL. Just like every other Defensive TD in Fantasy Football.

Yes, I agree it is painful... If the Saint's "became" defense as soon as the turnover occurred, then they "became" offense again as soon as the ball was turned back over. Or is the official NFL rule "you only become defense if the other team DOESN'T score a TD off the turnover?" The whole premise is ridiculous and I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the people arguing that the Saints D should get points have a game hinging on that fact. For the record (again), I do not. Their score means NOTHING to me presonally, its just the principle. I don't know you, or most of the other posters personally & as far as I know I don't play in leagues with any of you. The Saints D scoring points or not means nothing to me on any level other than the principle of fantasy football. And on that principle, they shouldn't...sorry.

 

[Sarnoff]

The whole premise is ridiculous and I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the people arguing that the Saints D should get points have a game hinging on that fact. For the record (again), I do not. Their score means NOTHING to me presonally, its just the principle. I don't know you, or most of the other posters personally & as far as I know I don't play in leagues with any of you. The Saints D scoring points or not means nothing to me on any level other than the principle of fantasy football. And on that principle, they shouldn't...sorry.

I have no skin in the game either, I don't have Meachem or the Saints or in any way am I affected by anything that happened in the game, but if you can't see why, for example, in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem, then there's no point in discussing it.

 

[PoolShark]

The whole premise is ridiculous and I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the people arguing that the Saints D should get points have a game hinging on that fact. For the record (again), I do not. Their score means NOTHING to me presonally, its just the principle. I don't know you, or most of the other posters personally & as far as I know I don't play in leagues with any of you. The Saints D scoring points or not means nothing to me on any level other than the principle of fantasy football. And on that principle, they shouldn't...sorry.

I have no skin in the game either, I don't have Meachem or the Saints or in any way am I affected by anything that happened in the game, but if you can't see why, for example, in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem, then there's no point in discussing it.

Unfortunately I am no longer in the FBG contest, but I find it difficult to understand why Joe would be posting Bill's comments on the subject to start this thread (which say the Saints D should not get points) and yet turn around and award the points to their D in his own subscriber contest. Seems kind of contradictory if you ask me. I haven't checked that, so I'll have to take your word on it...Irregardless, if you go up a few posts, you will notice that there are a couple sites that are doing the same. Sorry. but that still doesn't mean it's the right decision.

 

[Sarnoff]

The whole premise is ridiculous and I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the people arguing that the Saints D should get points have a game hinging on that fact. For the record (again), I do not. Their score means NOTHING to me presonally, its just the principle. I don't know you, or most of the other posters personally & as far as I know I don't play in leagues with any of you. The Saints D scoring points or not means nothing to me on any level other than the principle of fantasy football. And on that principle, they shouldn't...sorry.

I have no skin in the game either, I don't have Meachem or the Saints or in any way am I affected by anything that happened in the game, but if you can't see why, for example, in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem, then there's no point in discussing it.

Unfortunately I am no longer in the FBG contest, but I find it difficult to understand why Joe would be posting Bill's comments on the subject to start this thread (which say the Saints D should not get points) and yet turn around and award the points to their D in his own subscriber contest. Seems kind of contradictory if you ask me. I haven't checked that, so I'll have to take your word on it...Irregardless, if you go up a few posts, you will notice that there are a couple sites that are doing the same. Sorry. but that still doesn't mean it's the right decision.

You can look at the subscriber contest page, read the rules, and then look at the week 13 results to see why Joe made the correct decision and awarded the DST the points.Also, you can try rereading TWPs point above, which is consistent with how many sites interpret the rules.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

for the record, only CBS and Fanball are scoring this as a Saints defensive TD. All of the other sites that I'm aware of, including:-MyFantasyLeague.com-Rtsports.com-Yahoo-ESPN-Webleaguemanager.comare scoring this as an offensive fumble recovery touchdown.

Not sure how much MFL.com can be relied upon on the issue.MFL is not being consistent with the ruling and how they are scoring it. MFL.com awarded the Meachem fumble recovery to the Saints Defense, but then gave the TD to Meachem. That makes no sense. If you are awarding the Saints D the defensive fumble recovery, then wouldn't that mean that Meachem was on defense, and thus not an offensive TD? Regardless of how someone thinks it should be scored, MFL.com is certainly not consistent.

 

[Sarnoff]

for the record, only CBS and Fanball are scoring this as a Saints defensive TD. All of the other sites that I'm aware of, including:-MyFantasyLeague.com-Rtsports.com-Yahoo-ESPN-Webleaguemanager.comare scoring this as an offensive fumble recovery touchdown.

IIRC, CBS might be scoring it as an OFRTD, but the question is where to score an OFRTD (as a default) if there isn't a specific selection in each league's customized rule set. My CBS league doesn't award OFRTD points to players on the rules page, OFRTD doesn't show up at all, because the commish never checked the box for it, so, the points had to go somewhere and they defaulted to the D/ST (because, by rule, they couldn't go to the player).

 

[TommyGilmore]

in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem

Ironic if true.

 

[Sarnoff]

in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem

Ironic if true.

Clearly spelled out in the contest rules since the beginning: "Defensive/ST TD = 6 points (Kickoff return, punt return, blocked FG return, blocked punt return, interception return, fumble recovery return, etc. Note: ALL fumble recoveries and non-offensive TDs will count)". Individual players only scored for "passing" "rushing" or "receiving" touchdowns. Meachem's TD wasn't any of those, so no argument could be made he should have gotten the points.Week 13 note.

 

[TWP]

Poolshark, I'll try one last time, then I'll give up.

When Darren Sharper makes an interception and runs it back for a TD:

- He is on defense at the start of the play

- He is on defense before he gets the ball

- He is on offense when he gets the ball

- He is on offense when he scores the TD

- The TD is a Saints DST TD

When Meachem recovers a Redskins fumble and runs it for a TD:

- He is on offense at the start of the play

- He is on defense when the Redskins make the pick

- He is on offense when he recovers the fumble

- He is on offense when he scores the TD

The situation is exactly the same except for the fact that he started the play on offense instead of defense. Some people say that the important thing is that he is on defense before he gets the ball (just like Sharper) -- therefore it is a DST TD. Some people say that the important thing is that he was on offense when the play started (not like Sharper) -- therefore it is not a DST TD.

Either way, your 'counter-argument' is very wrong.

 

[TommyGilmore]

in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem

Ironic if true.

Clearly spelled out in the contest rules since the beginning: "Defensive/ST TD = 6 points (Kickoff return, punt return, blocked FG return, blocked punt return, interception return, fumble recovery return, etc. Note: ALL fumble recoveries and non-offensive TDs will count)". Individual players only scored for "passing" "rushing" or "receiving" touchdowns. Meachem's TD wasn't any of those, so no argument could be made he should have gotten the points.

That's not as clear as you might think, since it says "ALL non-offensive TDs will count" -- yet the NFL considers Meachem's TD to be an offensive TD. You could argue that neither Meachem nor the Saints D/ST would get the points in the subscriber contest.

 

[Sarnoff]

in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem

Ironic if true.

Clearly spelled out in the contest rules since the beginning: "Defensive/ST TD = 6 points (Kickoff return, punt return, blocked FG return, blocked punt return, interception return, fumble recovery return, etc. Note: ALL fumble recoveries and non-offensive TDs will count)". Individual players only scored for "passing" "rushing" or "receiving" touchdowns. Meachem's TD wasn't any of those, so no argument could be made he should have gotten the points.

That's not as clear as you might think, since it says "ALL non-offensive TDs will count" -- yet the NFL considers Meachem's TD to be an offensive TD. You could argue that neither Meachem nor the Saints D/ST would get the points in the subscriber contest.

The full line is "ALL fumble recoveries and non-offensive TDs will count". The key words are "ALL" and "and". "ALL fumble recoveries" is pretty clear, and would end the conversation, but the rules go even further. "And non-offensive TDs"... the thing is the use of "and", which means that there are some TDs which are offensive TDs will count as well. When you use "and", you use it to connect things that might not ordinarily be similar. The rules wouldn't say for QBs that "ALL passes for TDs and passes that are caught in the end zone will count", because those two mean the same thing. The use of "and" is there because there is a subset of things in category 1 which are not in category 2, namely, "non-offensive TDs (or "TDs not scored by the offense') AND TDs that are scored by fumble recovery". OFRTDs would fall in category 1 of "ALL fumble recoveries AND non-offensive TDs".

 

[30 Rock]

The explanation from Fantasy Commissioner makes the most sense to me. It explains why they don't award the Saints D with a score and it explains why the Saints do get credit for a fumble recovery.

link: http://www.webleaguemanager.com/faq-stats.html#s16

A player on Team B intercepted a pass from Team A, then fumbled it and Team A recovered it and ran it back for a TD. How is this scored?

Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field during the fumble, neither get credit for it. Instead, it goes down as an offensive fumble return TD for McMichael.

EXAMPLE: In week 5 of 2003, Michael Doss of Indianapolis intercepted a pass from Brad Johnson of Tampa Bay. Doss then fumbled the ball, and Keenan McCardell of Tampa Bay picked up the fumble and returned it 57 yards for a TD. We score the play as a 57-yard offensive fumble return TD for McCardell. To further clarify, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers began the play on offense. After the interception, according to NFL rules, the defense becomes the offense and vice versa. This is what causes the confusion. But if you really take that logic to its conclusion, it would stand to reason that there could never be a defensive TD, since once a defensive teams intercepts a pass, by NFL rules it has become the offense. Additionally, let's take that interpretation and reapply it to when McCardell gained possession of the ball - he was back on offense again. There is no scenario where McCardell's TD can be credited to the Bucs defense.

During a kick-off return, a player on Team B returned the kickoff and fumbled the ball, and Team A recovered it. Why was the defensive team of Team A given credit for a fumble recovery?

Even though the defensive team for Team A was not on the field, they are given credit for a fumble recovery. This reason is as follows: Team stats (as per the NFL) are defined as those generated by the entire team. Since most team stats can easily be attributed to one of the sub-teams (OT, DT, or ST), this is not typically an issue. For example, Punt Return TDs is always associated with the ST. However, in the case of fumbles, this is not nearly as clearly defined. All sub-teams (OT, DT, or ST) can fumble and recover a fumble. As a result, the stats generated by the NFL only list the fumble stats for the entire team and do not list the fumbles of the sub-teams. So, a fumble recovery will always be credited to the defensive team, no matter if the fumble occurred on the OT or ST, since the NFL does not break down fumbles into ST fumbles, OT fumbles, and DT fumbles.

EXAMPLE: In week 14 of 2003, Brandon Bennett of Cincinnati received a kickoff by Baltimore. Bennett then fumbled the ball, and Lamont Brightful of Baltimore recovered it. We would credit Baltimore's defensive team with a defensive fumble recovery.

 

[Sarnoff]

The explanation from Fantasy Commissioner makes the most sense to me. It explains why they don't award the Saints D with a score and it explains why the Saints do get credit for a fumble recovery.

link: http://www.webleaguemanager.com/faq-stats.html#s16

A player on Team B intercepted a pass from Team A, then fumbled it and Team A recovered it and ran it back for a TD. How is this scored?

Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field during the fumble, neither get credit for it. Instead, it goes down as an offensive fumble return TD for McMichael.

If those are how the rules are set up beforehand, fine, but you can't make some decisions that change existing rules because of one play. If you league doesn't have this rule already in place, then that's the issue.

Also, I'm not happy with the "Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field" in the explanation.... For example, say I have the Ravens as my DST. Hypothetically, if my DST scoring says:

0 points against: 10 points

1-7 PA: 5 points

8-13 PA: 0 points

14-22 PA: -5 points

23+ PA: -10 points

And, hypothetically, the Ravens D holds the opposing offense scoreless, however, Flacco throws 2 INTs that are returned for touchdowns, and they win the game 21-14. In most leagues, I'd be hit with 14 PA (-5) points, even though the defense wasn't on the field for the scoring plays. We all accept this begrudgingly, most of the time. This situation is similar.

 

[TommyGilmore]

in the FBG Subscriber Contest (in which I'm not a participant) the decision was made to award the points to the Saints D instead of Meachem

Ironic if true.

Clearly spelled out in the contest rules since the beginning: "Defensive/ST TD = 6 points (Kickoff return, punt return, blocked FG return, blocked punt return, interception return, fumble recovery return, etc. Note: ALL fumble recoveries and non-offensive TDs will count)". Individual players only scored for "passing" "rushing" or "receiving" touchdowns. Meachem's TD wasn't any of those, so no argument could be made he should have gotten the points.

That's not as clear as you might think, since it says "ALL non-offensive TDs will count" -- yet the NFL considers Meachem's TD to be an offensive TD. You could argue that neither Meachem nor the Saints D/ST would get the points in the subscriber contest.

The full line is "ALL fumble recoveries and non-offensive TDs will count". The key words are "ALL" and "and". "ALL fumble recoveries" is pretty clear, and would end the conversation, but the rules go even further. "And non-offensive TDs"... the thing is the use of "and", which means that there are some TDs which are offensive TDs will count as well. When you use "and", you use it to connect things that might not ordinarily be similar.

Fair enough. So even a TD like Kevin Curtis' offensive TD two years ago (Week 17) would count for the Eagles D/ST, even though there was no change of possession.I wonder if the subscriber contest gave the 6 points to the Philly D/ST back then (assuming that the same rules were used).

 

[30 Rock]

If, at any point during the play, you are defending your end zone, you are the defense. If at some point during the play, you are defending your end zone, and you end up scoring, it should be a defensive touchdown.

Why is that any more true than the following statement?If, at any point during the play, you are attacking your opponents end zone, you are the offense. If at some point during the play, you are attacking your opponents end zone, and you end up scoring, it should be an offensive touchdown.

 

[30 Rock]

The explanation from Fantasy Commissioner makes the most sense to me. It explains why they don't award the Saints D with a score and it explains why the Saints do get credit for a fumble recovery.

link: http://www.webleaguemanager.com/faq-stats.html#s16

A player on Team B intercepted a pass from Team A, then fumbled it and Team A recovered it and ran it back for a TD. How is this scored?

Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field during the fumble, neither get credit for it. Instead, it goes down as an offensive fumble return TD for McMichael.

If those are how the rules are set up beforehand, fine, but you can't make some decisions that change existing rules because of one play. If you league doesn't have this rule already in place, then that's the issue.

Also, I'm not happy with the "Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field" in the explanation.... For example, say I have the Ravens as my DST. Hypothetically, if my DST scoring says:

0 points against: 10 points

1-7 PA: 5 points

8-13 PA: 0 points

14-22 PA: -5 points

23+ PA: -10 points

And, hypothetically, the Ravens D holds the opposing offense scoreless, however, Flacco throws 2 INTs that are returned for touchdowns, and they win the game 21-14. In most leagues, I'd be hit with 14 PA (-5) points, even though the defense wasn't on the field for the scoring plays. We all accept this begrudgingly, most of the time. This situation is similar.

The scenario you describe is a major flaw in fantasy football scoring as far as I'm concerned. It does not justify acceptance of other flawed scoring.

 

[Sarnoff]

I wonder if the subscriber contest gave the 6 points to the Philly D/ST back then (assuming that the same rules were used).

Same wording, but the subscriber contest only ran until week 16 in '07.

 

[Sarnoff]

The explanation from Fantasy Commissioner makes the most sense to me. It explains why they don't award the Saints D with a score and it explains why the Saints do get credit for a fumble recovery.

link: http://www.webleaguemanager.com/faq-stats.html#s16

A player on Team B intercepted a pass from Team A, then fumbled it and Team A recovered it and ran it back for a TD. How is this scored?

Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field during the fumble, neither get credit for it. Instead, it goes down as an offensive fumble return TD for McMichael.

If those are how the rules are set up beforehand, fine, but you can't make some decisions that change existing rules because of one play. If you league doesn't have this rule already in place, then that's the issue.

Also, I'm not happy with the "Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field" in the explanation.... For example, say I have the Ravens as my DST. Hypothetically, if my DST scoring says:

0 points against: 10 points

1-7 PA: 5 points

8-13 PA: 0 points

14-22 PA: -5 points

23+ PA: -10 points

And, hypothetically, the Ravens D holds the opposing offense scoreless, however, Flacco throws 2 INTs that are returned for touchdowns, and they win the game 21-14. In most leagues, I'd be hit with 14 PA (-5) points, even though the defense wasn't on the field for the scoring plays. We all accept this begrudgingly, most of the time. This situation is similar.

The scenario you describe is a major flaw in fantasy football scoring as far as I'm concerned. It does not justify acceptance of other flawed scoring.

But the reasoning is consistent, which is how all rules must be.

 

[30 Rock]

The explanation from Fantasy Commissioner makes the most sense to me. It explains why they don't award the Saints D with a score and it explains why the Saints do get credit for a fumble recovery.

link: http://www.webleaguemanager.com/faq-stats.html#s16

A player on Team B intercepted a pass from Team A, then fumbled it and Team A recovered it and ran it back for a TD. How is this scored?

Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field during the fumble, neither get credit for it. Instead, it goes down as an offensive fumble return TD for McMichael.

If those are how the rules are set up beforehand, fine, but you can't make some decisions that change existing rules because of one play. If you league doesn't have this rule already in place, then that's the issue.

Also, I'm not happy with the "Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field" in the explanation.... For example, say I have the Ravens as my DST. Hypothetically, if my DST scoring says:

0 points against: 10 points

1-7 PA: 5 points

8-13 PA: 0 points

14-22 PA: -5 points

23+ PA: -10 points

And, hypothetically, the Ravens D holds the opposing offense scoreless, however, Flacco throws 2 INTs that are returned for touchdowns, and they win the game 21-14. In most leagues, I'd be hit with 14 PA (-5) points, even though the defense wasn't on the field for the scoring plays. We all accept this begrudgingly, most of the time. This situation is similar.

The scenario you describe is a major flaw in fantasy football scoring as far as I'm concerned. It does not justify acceptance of other flawed scoring.

But the reasoning is consistent, which is how all rules must be.

Consistency based on flawed logic is not good enough when there are other consistent solutions that make more sense.