AAABatteries
Footballguy
I agree - that's why I said I dismiss it as it takes away from the bigger discussion (not to mention it's ridiculous)jonessed said:
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
A thread about race, racial relations, racism, institutional racism, and what should we do about it? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Honestly, I have no idea what the stats say. Or your implied conclusion. Not sure why you even want to bring gun violence into an implied racism discussion if the stats are going to make your claim totally bogus anyway.
jonessed
Footballguy
Obama was elected by America, not just black people and Trump was elected by America, not just white supremacists. Race likely played a part in both elections, but it was not a major part in either.
This is the problem with racial politics. If it’s all that you focus on you can see it as the underlying cause of just about anything.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism
Institutional racism (also known as institutionalized racism) is a form of racism expressed in the practice of social and political institutions. Institutional racism is also racism by individuals or informal social groups,[1] governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism. It is reflected in disparities regarding wealth, income, criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power and education, among other things. Whether implicitly or explicitly expressed, institutional racism occurs when a certain group is targeted and discriminated against based upon race. Institutional racism is mostly implicit in our ideas and attitudes, so it is often unnoticed by the individual expressing it (see implicit bias).
https://www.bustle.com/p/this-is-proof-that-institutional-racism-is-still-very-much-a-problem-43610
Here are 7 examples of how our system treats persons of color differently:
1. Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug related crimes than whites.
2. 58% of prisoners are black or Hispanic, despite making up one quarter of the US population.
3. 13% of all black men are denied the right to vote.
4. 74% of black students and 80% of Latino students attend schools that are more than half-minority populations.
5. In 2013, the unemployment rate for black college grads was almost twice as high as the rate for grads overall.
6. Asian American homebuyers are shown 20% fewer homes than white homebuyers.
7. White families hold 90% of the national wealth. Black and Latino families combined hold less than 5%.
timschochet
Footballguy
Taking each of these one at a time:
Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug related crimes than whites.
A new study on wrongful convictions shows how the justice system disproportionately affects black people. The study found that among three types of crimes (murder, sexual assault, and drug crimes) black people were consistently more likely to be wrongfully convicted. In addition to the above stat on drug-related offenses, the study found black people serving time for sexual assault were three and a half times more likely to be innocent than white people. Despite making up 13 percent of the US population, African Americans made up 47 percent of the exonerations studied.
Systemic racism even exists in the way drug problems are discussed politically. The “War on Drugs” was a response to the crack problem primarily affecting black communities. That’s a stark difference from “Opioid Epidemic,” which is how the prescription drug problem primarily affecting white communities is being discussed.
Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug related crimes than whites.
A new study on wrongful convictions shows how the justice system disproportionately affects black people. The study found that among three types of crimes (murder, sexual assault, and drug crimes) black people were consistently more likely to be wrongfully convicted. In addition to the above stat on drug-related offenses, the study found black people serving time for sexual assault were three and a half times more likely to be innocent than white people. Despite making up 13 percent of the US population, African Americans made up 47 percent of the exonerations studied.
Systemic racism even exists in the way drug problems are discussed politically. The “War on Drugs” was a response to the crack problem primarily affecting black communities. That’s a stark difference from “Opioid Epidemic,” which is how the prescription drug problem primarily affecting white communities is being discussed.
timschochet
Footballguy
58% of prisoners are black or Hispanic, despite making up one quarter of the US population.
The way the justice system disproportionately affects people of color goes beyond wrongful convictions. The above statistic comes from the NAACP’s criminal justice fact sheet, which also mentions that in 2001 one in six black men had been incarcerated at some point in their lifetime. Overall, black people are incarcerated at six times the rate of white people.
The way the justice system disproportionately affects people of color goes beyond wrongful convictions. The above statistic comes from the NAACP’s criminal justice fact sheet, which also mentions that in 2001 one in six black men had been incarcerated at some point in their lifetime. Overall, black people are incarcerated at six times the rate of white people.
timschochet
Footballguy
13% of all black men are denied the right to vote.
The disproportionate incarceration rates have an impact beyond time spent in jail. Because people convicted of felonies are not allowed to vote in many states, more than one out of every 10 black men cannot participate in one of the cornerstones of our democracy.
The disproportionate incarceration rates have an impact beyond time spent in jail. Because people convicted of felonies are not allowed to vote in many states, more than one out of every 10 black men cannot participate in one of the cornerstones of our democracy.
timschochet
Footballguy
74% of black students and 80% of Latino students attend schools that are more than half-minority populations.
Brown versus Board did not solve the racial injustices in our education system. In fact, many school are more segregated now than they were in the the '50s and '60s. The above statistic matters because it shows in numbers the lack of integration among white students and students of color. The “resegregation” of schools has been widely discussed as of late. PBS publishes these infographics on school segregation. ProPublica examined resegregation in the south. NPR ran a series on systemic segregation that highlights how integration helps students of every race.
Racial bias is especially prevalent in the way schools discipline student of color versus white students. Black students are suspended and expelled at three times the rate of white students. This especially affects female students of color, as they are “suspended at higher rates than girls of any other race or ethnicity and most boys.”
Brown versus Board did not solve the racial injustices in our education system. In fact, many school are more segregated now than they were in the the '50s and '60s. The above statistic matters because it shows in numbers the lack of integration among white students and students of color. The “resegregation” of schools has been widely discussed as of late. PBS publishes these infographics on school segregation. ProPublica examined resegregation in the south. NPR ran a series on systemic segregation that highlights how integration helps students of every race.
Racial bias is especially prevalent in the way schools discipline student of color versus white students. Black students are suspended and expelled at three times the rate of white students. This especially affects female students of color, as they are “suspended at higher rates than girls of any other race or ethnicity and most boys.”
timschochet
Footballguy
In 2013, the unemployment rate for black college grads was almost twice as high as the rate for grads overall.
In a 2014 study on employment rates among recent graduates, 12.4 percent of black college graduates were unemployed. That is significantly more than the 5.6 percent of overall college graduates who were unemployed. As the study states, the recent recession impacted all college graduates. However, it was disproportionately difficult on black college graduates.
One factor that may contribute to disproportionate unemployment is the way our culture still discriminates against names that don’t sound white. Studies have shown that a job applicant with a name that “sounds black” is less likely to get called in for an interview than a job applicant with a white-sounding name.
In a 2014 study on employment rates among recent graduates, 12.4 percent of black college graduates were unemployed. That is significantly more than the 5.6 percent of overall college graduates who were unemployed. As the study states, the recent recession impacted all college graduates. However, it was disproportionately difficult on black college graduates.
One factor that may contribute to disproportionate unemployment is the way our culture still discriminates against names that don’t sound white. Studies have shown that a job applicant with a name that “sounds black” is less likely to get called in for an interview than a job applicant with a white-sounding name.
timschochet
Footballguy
Asian American homebuyers are shown 20% fewer homes than white homebuyers.
In a 2012 report by the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, racial bias in the housing market was evidenced by the rate at which homebuyers were shown available housing. The report found that renters and homebuyers of color were shown and told about less homes white homebuyers. Attitudes about living in more segregated areas likely play into this disparity in rates. In a 2008 study on racial attitudes, only 25 percent of white respondents would be willing to live in a neighborhood where half of their neighbors were black.
The practice of redlining still exists, which involves denying funding or services based on the racial demographics of an area. Just this month, AT&T was accused of discriminating against low-income neighborhoods.
In a 2012 report by the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, racial bias in the housing market was evidenced by the rate at which homebuyers were shown available housing. The report found that renters and homebuyers of color were shown and told about less homes white homebuyers. Attitudes about living in more segregated areas likely play into this disparity in rates. In a 2008 study on racial attitudes, only 25 percent of white respondents would be willing to live in a neighborhood where half of their neighbors were black.
The practice of redlining still exists, which involves denying funding or services based on the racial demographics of an area. Just this month, AT&T was accused of discriminating against low-income neighborhoods.
timschochet
Footballguy
White families hold 90% of the national wealth. Black and Latino families combined hold less than 5%.
Inequality in schools and the job market as well as other racial biases compound to create a great disparity in the distribution of wealth. A 2013 survey from the Federal Reserve showed that the top 10 percent of white families own pretty much everything. This works out to mean the median net worth of white families is $134,000. That’s almost ten times higher than $14,000 for Hispanic families and $11,000 for black families.
Inequality in schools and the job market as well as other racial biases compound to create a great disparity in the distribution of wealth. A 2013 survey from the Federal Reserve showed that the top 10 percent of white families own pretty much everything. This works out to mean the median net worth of white families is $134,000. That’s almost ten times higher than $14,000 for Hispanic families and $11,000 for black families.
timschochet
Footballguy
The article concludes:
These disparities are overwhelming when you see them compiled in a list. Even more so when you experience them every day. But like with any other problem, the first step is acknowledging there is something wrong. Once we do that, we can start fixing these systems so they truly help all people.
I agree that these disparities ARE overwhelming. Yet guys like jon mx argue that either they don't exist, or that they're not proof of institutional racism. I think the proof is obvious, unless you're simply unwilling to accept it.
These disparities are overwhelming when you see them compiled in a list. Even more so when you experience them every day. But like with any other problem, the first step is acknowledging there is something wrong. Once we do that, we can start fixing these systems so they truly help all people.
I agree that these disparities ARE overwhelming. Yet guys like jon mx argue that either they don't exist, or that they're not proof of institutional racism. I think the proof is obvious, unless you're simply unwilling to accept it.
waterworld
Footballguy
You know what we could do to really help with this? Let's kneel during the national anthem.
timschochet
Footballguy
The kneeling is not being done to protest these inequities, but because of the specific perceived mistreatment of young black men by the police.
The stuff not crossed out is a possible and perhaps reasonable definition. The other stuff is either individual racism or outcomes which may or may not be based on racism.
timschochet
Footballguy
It's like you have your head in the sand, jon. You can cross out all the lines you want, but the facts still exist.
waterworld
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
waterworld
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
The only bullet point that might represent proof of some form of institutionalized racism is the wrongful conviction study. You would actually have to link to the study though.
That is some terrible use of statistics there and why you can't take this stuff seriously. What you need to compare the percent exonerated from a crime to the percent of the population which makes up the group convicted of a crime. It does not matter if blacks make up 13% of the population. What matters is how that 47% of blacks exonerated compares to the percentage of blacks who were convicted of the crime. That is what would be the basis for a claim that there was some racial discrimination going on.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
One of the lines you crossed off, jon:
Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug related crimes than whites.
The key word here is wrongly. If blacks were simply 12 times more likely to be convicted, you would simply argue that its because they commit many more drug related crimes. But the fact that they're much more likely to be wrongly convicted indicates that we're dealing with racism, and because its coming from our justice system, it must be institutional racism.
Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug related crimes than whites.
The key word here is wrongly. If blacks were simply 12 times more likely to be convicted, you would simply argue that its because they commit many more drug related crimes. But the fact that they're much more likely to be wrongly convicted indicates that we're dealing with racism, and because its coming from our justice system, it must be institutional racism.
Either debate it or not. Start by telling me what is wrong with my last post above. I can go through each of your stats and tear them apart if you wish.
It's like you have your head in the sand, jon. You can cross out all the lines you want, but the facts still exist.
timschochet
Footballguy
Strongly, strongly disagree. And I think you and jon are being awfully dismissive. But again, this is why I raised the question of whether we can even have this discussion at all in my second post. I don't expect you or jon or most other white conservatives around here to accept the truth of institutional racism. No matter what evidence is presented, you will find a way to dispute it.
jonessed
Footballguy
I’m still waiting on the link to the actual study. I’m not sure how one can agree or disagree with a study that can’t be read.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well, by all means, go ahead and try. Your first attempt was not very compelling. You wrote:
It does not matter if blacks make up 13% of the population. What matters is how that 47% of blacks exonerated compares to the percentage of blacks who were convicted of the crime.
That's a ridiculous statement. If we're going to discuss evidence of institutional racism, we can't do it by comparing blacks to other blacks. The only comparison that makes sense is to compare blacks to whites.
I don't expect you to dispute what I said above because you really don't understand statistics and how to control for other variables.
timschochet
Footballguy
The link was in the original article. But here you go:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/07/politics/blacks-wrongful-convictions-study/index.html
timschochet
Footballguy
When it comes to drug crimes, innocent blacks were 12 times more likely to be convicted than innocent whites. While black and white people have similar rates of illegal drug use, black people are more likely to be arrested and convicted of such offenses than white people are, researchers found.
I dunno. Seems pretty damn clear to me.
I dunno. Seems pretty damn clear to me.
You really don't get it. If blacks are 47% of the population who are convicted rapists or drug dealers or whatever and 47% of the exonerated are blacks, that does not show any biased towards blacks. It shows a flawed system which equally fails without regard for race. The fact that they make up 13% of the total population is meaningless.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
So far you have shown the ability to post three
emojis, but in truth the points have just :whoosh: by you.
timschochet
Footballguy
Convicted racists?
Putting that aside, the whole point is that blacks are exonerated more because they falsely charged more, despite the fact by percentage they use the same amount of illegal drugs as white people do. What does that tell you? I know what it SHOULD tell you.
jonessed
Footballguy
So blacks make up about 37% of the prison population, but 47% of those exonerated. That could be something. It depends on how they chose the population of exonerations to study. Do you have any more information on that?
timschochet
Footballguy
OK jon, at the risk of bashing my head against a wall, let's try again:
1. Black people and white people use illegal drugs at a similar rate.
2. Black people represent 13% of the overall population.
3. Black people represent 47% of everybody arrested for illegal drugs.
4. Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongfully convicted than white people are.
Now, you can play around with the numbers all you want, and tell me how I don't understand statistics. I think I understand the above, and what it implies about our society.
1. Black people and white people use illegal drugs at a similar rate.
2. Black people represent 13% of the overall population.
3. Black people represent 47% of everybody arrested for illegal drugs.
4. Black people are 12 times more likely to be wrongfully convicted than white people are.
Now, you can play around with the numbers all you want, and tell me how I don't understand statistics. I think I understand the above, and what it implies about our society.
It does not show what you think it shows. I already wasted my time explaining one to you, which you still don't comprehend. I will have to look at how these numbers were generated to understand what they are really saying.
jonessed
Footballguy
Do you have the breakdown on where most of these drug deals are taking place or where they are being caught?
Max Power
Footballguy
And what can we do about it? Like others have said, no race can say what it's like to be another race. We just don't have that life experience. Yes there are racists out there and there are racists in power. I can educate my kids on the subject and I'm more than willing to vote for someone with a plan to correct some of the wrongs in our society. Outside of continuing education on the issues, what else is there?
The system is set up so that old money makes new money. However, I think it's realistic for each generation to maintain or grow their family's wealth if they apply themselves.
The system is set up so that old money makes new money. However, I think it's realistic for each generation to maintain or grow their family's wealth if they apply themselves.
timschochet
Footballguy
All I'm doing is accessing this stuff from the internet. What are you suggesting here?
timschochet
Footballguy
We're not at that point yet. We're debating whether or not the problem exists. It's obvious to me that it does, but others don't feel that way.
jonessed
Footballguy
That location of arrest may be an important variable. It’s certainly not the only one, income, history of arrests, type of drugs, age, etc. would all be interesting variables to look at in addition to race.
Last edited by a moderator:
Patrick Bateman
Footballguy
This country has a much bigger problem with racism than many of us are willing to admit.
Last edited by a moderator:
1. Is not quite true. In surveys by US HHS, blacks are about 20% more likely to use drugs. But will be a meaningless distinction in this discussion and is brought up mostly to spin the numbers.
2. Obviously true.
3. True. But blacks also represents about 50% of reported rapists, murderers and robbers. In many cases when blacks are being arrested for other crimes, they get nailed for drug possession and that ends up easiest to prove and an easy plea bargain. Oddly, even in districts like Washington DC where over 80 percent of the police force is black, blacks are still more than 8 times more likely to be arrested than whites. I guess they must be racist too? Maybe blacks are arrested more than whites because they are far more likely to be involved in violent crimes, and drugs are just a plea bargain.
4. Again, if you are 12 times more likely to be convicted in the first place, it is pretty easy to understand why they also might be 12 times more likely to be wrongly convicted too. It just matches the percentage convicted in the first place. A wrongful conviction is a horrible thing and there is never a good excuse. And if cops do intentionally plant or alter evidence to get a conviction, they should be thrown in jail.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I wonder who is more likely to have a police encounter, a rural homeowner doing a few lines of blow in the privacy of her own home with only her spouse around, or an urban dweller smoking the drug in a multifamily housing environment.
timschochet
Footballguy
Obviously the urban dweller. And you can find all sorts of other disparities too, if you look. But what should NOT be done is to use these disparities as an argument that the institutional racism doesn't exist because it clearly does.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Surprising, if the matter is as clear as you think, that you need to argue it constantly. It must be difficult to hold the other side in any respect or esteem when they don't get what is so clear clear?
jonessed
Footballguy
That’s kind of how this works. If you want to know the primary factor(s) that lead to a drug arrest you have to study more than one factor.
Last edited by a moderator:
There is nothing clear about this. There are lots of reasons why blacks are more likely to be arrested than others, and the number 1 reason is blacks are far more likely than whites to be involved in violent crimes. Drug crimes are harder to quantify, because there are so many users across every class and race. It really should not be the focus of law enforcement. The focus should be the violent crimes and the hard numbers of crimes committed by blacks is largely the reason they are arrested at much higher rates. Discrimination is a minor player.
Last edited by a moderator:
Max Power
Footballguy
I believe that the majority of people would agree a problem exists. How much of a problem it is will be a long debate. And a solution seems improbable.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I think he's basically right. A huge chunk of Trump's identity is being "not Obama" no matter what that means in terms of policy. And "not Obama" means something racially specific to his base.
