The tool factor in this thread is off the charts.Oh man, get ready for a barrage of quotes followed by lots of , references to being a cuck, and something about a safe space.
If it had started with something in tone like "Guys, help me reconcile this..." rather than "My friend turned out to be a pod person and now I fear for my children" it would have helped.Yup, I think it would be great if this were a thread where we could try to reach out and share what's happening in our bubbles. It's tough with all the trolls though.
I agree that Trump himself probably isn't that conservative, but I'm worried he's just going to get played by all the people he's surrounding himself with.As much as I believe his presidency is a disaster waiting to happen, there are a few things to be hopeful of.
That's not really Koya's style. A long-time poster like you should know that.If it had started with something in tone like "Guys, help me reconcile this..." rather than "My friend turned out to be a pod person and now I fear for my children" it would have helped.
There are a lot of reasons to reject Hillary. But, to make the leap and say therefore Trump is nuttery. At least 40% who voted for him in the Republican primary subscribed to the hate-filled rhetoric. Let's not pass this off as just a "lesser of two evils" selection, which is still incomprehensible. No, there are a lot of awful people who came out of the woodwork this year, emboldened by a racist (and sexist and homophobic) voice who could amplify their own views.Koya--Consider this hypothetical. A longtime family friend ends his friendship with your wife because she voted for Hillary. He lost a son in Iraq and considers Hillary's actions to be treason. He thinks that anyone who supports Hillary is also betraying the country that his son died protecting.
My experience is that it is specifically liberal people of color, women, and LGBTQ who are taking it very hard. Hard to blame them given the rhetoric coming out of the alt-right.I don't know how to convey how incredibly common Koya's feelings are in the liberal bubble. Koya's post could have been written by virtually everyone I know.
I think it's important for those of you who live in the conservative bubble, or who don't pay attention to politics, to understand this isn't just one nutty guy going overboard.
It's an all-star lineup of trolls.The tool factor in this thread is off the charts.
The bolded is your fault, not theirs.No. I waited to let the initial shock and emotion pass. And was not intending on posting this - here and certainly in a very public space on facebook - until I realized this morning that I literally could not feel comfortable letting my children (that wife and I plan on having) having as their godparents two friends I care about dearly, one of whom I've known for over 30 years.
I realized that my mixed-race children don't deserve to be raised in a household where, as bad a choice as Hillary may have been, they chose someone who not only stands ideologically opposed to what we believe in, but who support someone who is harming those of minority decent across the nation. Not sure what crystalized that for me... because it's not political. I'd have no problem with any number of Romney, Bush etc supporters caring for my children, even if we share different viewpoints on certain matters. That's political discourse and policy.
In this case, it's a clear white-nationalist bent. And perhaps that was the deciding factor on why I posted it today. Because Bannon? Really? You are going to be the president for "everyone" and bring the lead cheerleader for the alt-right, white-nationalist movement as your key advisor?
And then it dawned on me just what this election meant. That I can't, by definition, look at my friends like that the same way. As the child of a Holocaust survivor, I don't take this #### lightly. While I don't believe these people are actively racist (that's not to say they are not, at all, but then again, to a degree we all are), they certainly care so little about people such as my wife and I, and our children, that they'd elect someone who has come out very clearly for white-nationalism and against all those who stand in the way.
Hope that explains the timing. It's been bottled up inside and I didn't want to further alienate anyone and wanted to move forward. But I realized that forward can never again be in the direction we once thought it was.
He's not my guy but no they don't. What if you care about a conservative Supreme Court? Or repealing Obamacare? You're getting neither by voting for Clinton. But it doesn't mean you support 100% of trump either. Just like those voting for Clinton don't necessarily support corruption, money laundering, and reckless handling of classified materials. There's gray area.See, this is just patently false. By definition, if you support Trump, you support racism. You may not think so, but you do. At minimum, on an implicit level, it's ok with you.
Don't disagree. I disagree with painting everyone that voted for him as a racist.here's the issue for many: I was a Bernie supporter. Trump could have adopted every one of Bernie's stances and he still wouldn't have got my vote. Bernie wouldn't have gotten my vote if he did and said the things Trump said. Issues aside, I could never vote for or support a racist/sexist/bigot. those are disqualifying traits for many people. for others, not so much it seems. that can be disheartening
This is true but I think it's more important to understand why this is the case.See, this is just patently false. By definition, if you support Trump, you support racism. You may not think so, but you do. At minimum, on an implicit level, it's ok with you.
No, you just decided that racism, xenophobia and homophobia are less important than whatever single issue you're smitten with.He's not my guy but no they don't. What if you care about a conservative Supreme Court? Or repealing Obamacare? You're getting neither by voting for Clinton. But it doesn't mean you support 100% of trump either. Just like those voting for Clinton don't necessarily support corruption, money laundering, and reckless handling of classified materials. There's gray area.
Lolololol yeah no not necessarily. I mean what the #### kind of #### logic is this?See, this is just patently false. By definition, if you support Trump, you support racism. You may not think so, but you do. At minimum, on an implicit level, it's ok with you.
Well, honestly to be fair I am not sure and you may be correct. I am in an inter-racial marriage (but she is not of any racial group that is really under "attack").If you were gay, Muslim or Mexican I bet you would feel different.
No, you just decided that racism, xenophobia and homophobia are less important than whatever single issue you're smitten with.
You understand Trump won't actually help those people, right? His tax cuts won't help them. Even if their income is tied to coal and other non-sustanable energies, they are choosing their personal well being over the well being of this earth.This is true but I think it's more important to understand why this is the case.
It's common knowledge now that Trump flipped counties in the Rust Belt that Obama had previously won. A lot of these people are obviously white and there's essentially no way they would have voted for Obama in 08/12 if they were full blown racists.
From the perspective of these people, their economic well-being superseded all else. Can you truly blame them? Let's say you're poor as #### and your life is miserable. When presented with the choice between a candidate running a tone deaf campaign (ImWithHer ), who pushed trade agreements that decimated your town and isn't really trying to court you anymore or a loud mouthed bigot who is promising to bring back your jobs even if it isn't even remotely feasible, who do you go with? Even if you find the latter candidate to be reprehensible, where does that get you?
On the surface, I actually think the choice was easy and I place most of the blame on Clinton. I know it's hindsight but I still can't get over how awful of a campaign she ran.
Ok, Card Trader.
So...now Trump supporters are racists that he cannot associate with and apparently even though there were worse people who got more support than Trump in the past...he had no problem keeping those friendships/relationships.I can't believe I'd EVER vote for Hillary. In this State or any other election.
But this is as no brainer as it comes. The flat irresponsibility of Trump makes that clear as day. Unless you are so blinded by ideology or indeed are a flat out nationalist (with all the negative connotations).
Then again, we've seen worse people get more support by larger percentages as Trump. Curious who ever admitted to those historic "blunders"
So, true. My drowning in dem salty tears is a legitimate fear right now.Trust me, if Trump wins, eating crow will be about the 119th worst thing we will have to deal with.
We'll find out. In his life so far he's the guy who does the playing, not the guy who gets played. He's been completely underestimated by everyone in politics since day one all the way up to about 8:30pm last Tuesday night. The guy just moved mountains and won the presidency basically all by himself and with no backing. What else does he have to do for people to take him seriously?I agree that Trump himself probably isn't that conservative, but I'm worried he's just going to get played by all the people he's surrounding himself with.
I don't know, stop acting like a doofus?We'll find out. In his life so far he's the guy who does the playing, not the guy who gets played. He's been completely underestimated by everyone in politics since day one all the way up to about 8:30pm last Tuesday night. The guy just moved mountains and won the presidency basically all by himself and with no backing. What else does he have to do for people to take him seriously?
I've posted my thoughts. Your problem, and many others here, is you can't stop assigning thoughts to people they don't have. Then you guys question people's intelligence when they stop engaging you. Carry on.Ok, Card Trader.
Try and un-holster than monstrous intellect and tell me how that isn't true?
You literally agreed with me.I've posted my thoughts. Your problem, and many others here, is you can't stop assigning thoughts to people they don't have. Then you guys question people's intelligence when they stop engaging you. Carry on.
You said people decided that repealing Obama care or getting a more conservative Supreme Court outweighed the bevy of negatives associated with Trump.He's not my guy but no they don't. What if you care about a conservative Supreme Court? Or repealing Obamacare? You're getting neither by voting for Clinton. But it doesn't mean you support 100% of trump either. Just like those voting for Clinton don't necessarily support corruption, money laundering, and reckless handling of classified materials. There's gray area.
You were considering these people before their support of Trump and now because of who they voted for you disqualify them? That doesn't add up to me - I assume you wouldn't have felt they were good candidates before the election if they showed any signs of racism. Therefore it seems you are assigning the racist label to all Trump supporters. And there is no way to find common ground with people if you take such a superficial view of their reasons for voting.If you were considering entrusting your children to these friends prior to the election you must have known and trusted them enough to not think they were "ok with bigotry and hate". I know people who voted both ways (and personally I voted for Johnson) and I think of them the same way as I thought of them before. I hope that after maybe a little more time has passed that you reassess your stance here. People have many different reasons for voting the way that they do.
Acceptance speech. Check.I don't know, stop acting like a doofus?
14% of Gays voted TrumpNo, you just decided that racism, xenophobia and homophobia are less important than whatever single issue you're smitten with.
Neither do I.No. I waited to let the initial shock and emotion pass. And was not intending on posting this - here and certainly in a very public space on facebook - until I realized this morning that I literally could not feel comfortable letting my children (that wife and I plan on having) having as their godparents two friends I care about dearly, one of whom I've known for over 30 years.
I realized that my mixed-race children don't deserve to be raised in a household where, as bad a choice as Hillary may have been, they chose someone who not only stands ideologically opposed to what we believe in, but who support someone who is harming those of minority decent across the nation. Not sure what crystalized that for me... because it's not political. I'd have no problem with any number of Romney, Bush etc supporters caring for my children, even if we share different viewpoints on certain matters. That's political discourse and policy.
In this case, it's a clear white-nationalist bent. And perhaps that was the deciding factor on why I posted it today. Because Bannon? Really? You are going to be the president for "everyone" and bring the lead cheerleader for the alt-right, white-nationalist movement as your key advisor?
And then it dawned on me just what this election meant. That I can't, by definition, look at my friends like that the same way. As the child of a Holocaust survivor, I don't take this #### lightly. While I don't believe these people are actively racist (that's not to say they are not, at all, but then again, to a degree we all are), they certainly care so little about people such as my wife and I, and our children, that they'd elect someone who has come out very clearly for white-nationalism and against all those who stand in the way.
Hope that explains the timing. It's been bottled up inside and I didn't want to further alienate anyone and wanted to move forward. But I realized that forward can never again be in the direction we once thought it was.
No #### but that's not the point, the vast majority of these people aren't policy wonks and no one should expect them to be. I'm saying from what I can expect the average voter to glean from both campaigns, Trump's was by far more effective and not due to bigotry - in fact it was effective despite of the bigotry. Clinton just ran a ####ty, tone deaf campaign and she is to blame.You understand Trump won't actually help those people, right? His tax cuts won't help them. Even if their income is tied to coal and other non-sustanable energies, they are choosing their personal well being over the well being of this earth.
No matter how you cut it, these people are ignorant, uneducated and date I say "Morons" of the highest degree.
I don't care if they voted Obama, Hittler or Castro. They are not intelligent.
Everything always takes a backseat to the economy.No, you just decided that racism, xenophobia and homophobia are less important than whatever single issue you're smitten with.
How have the democrats done for the people in Detroit, Baltimore and other inner cities? Are you gonna insult their intelligence them for voting D as well?You understand Trump won't actually help those people, right? His tax cuts won't help them. Even if their income is tied to coal and other non-sustanable energies, they are choosing their personal well being over the well being of this earth.
No matter how you cut it, these people are ignorant, uneducated and date I say "Morons" of the highest degree.
I don't care if they voted Obama, Hittler or Castro. They are not intelligent.
This is a separate point from the concerns Koya is expressing, but anyone taking solace in the bolded is making a mistake IMO.Well, honestly to be fair I am not sure and you may be correct. I am in an inter-racial marriage (but she is not of any racial group that is really under "attack").
I do have a cousin who married a Muslim, and I do like the guy a lot, and they have four daughters so maybe there could be some concern there (but honestly that would likely exist with or without Trump given the climate of the world at the present time). As far as Mexicans, he has already backed off from some of that campaign rhetoric, and as of now he is only speaking of deporting any undocumented Mexican that is charged with a crime. I doubt anyone has much issue with that.
Heck, I don't like the man for many reasons - but as some one that lives in the NYC metro area I do know he's a NY liberal at heart and as an American I know the limited powers of the presidency and trust the system to work the way it should. I seriously don't think Koya needs to worry as much as he is. I hope I am right.
Not really. One doesn't have to think very hard to come up with more plausible alternative hypotheses. One can be a racist, support racists, and view fellow racists as unqualified, lacking in any other substantive ideas, outdated/boring, etc.The vast majority of voters in the state of Louisiana preferred Donald Trump. Yet only 3% of them voted for David Duke, running for Senator.
This suggests to me that most people who voted for Trump are not racists and reject racism.
Your thoughts are that people decided his flaws didn't matter when compared to other issues. That in and of itself is telling about the character of the voters.
Blacks and hispanics can be racist and sexist too. The concept of internalized racism being a plausible explanation for this.14% of Gays voted Trump
8% of blacks voted Trump
29% of the Hispanic voted Trump
Its fine to demand answers from the supposed white hetero, racist, xenophobic and homophobic crowd, but what do you make of these voters?
This...no matter what side you're on. A lot of the Trump votes were because he wasn't a lifetime politician corrupted by the system.I do think what we're seeing now is a release of a lot of pent-up emotion. It was a long, drawn out, contentious, hateful and soul-crushing election cycle and now it's finally over. The happy racists are feeling empowered to say racist things, and the ignorant trolls love to gloat. 8 years ago there was a lot of emotion too, obviously of a much different tone and content, but some of it was pretty ridiculous too. Then eventually we all realized nothing really changed, we still have to get up in the morning and go to work. Remember when Obama was going to completely transform Washington? 8 years later, half the electorate is as fed up as ever and willing to vote for an insane baby, because this time dammit, things really need to change. It ain't gonna change. Politics just sucks and it gets more depressing the more you follow it. Life's too short. I wish I could redo the last 18 months and pay zero attention to any of this.
And it's cousin "they didn't care about certain issues." You know, like, civil liberties and stuff.
It doesn't say a damn thing about their character. It says they cared about certain issues. You're either trolling or not bright.
If you cry wolf too many times, people stop caring.I just want to offer one small piece of unasked for advice.
The Left REALLY needs to start picking their spots when using the term "hate".
You sound like the weirdos shouting "Herbert" in that trippy Star Trek episode Way to Eden.
You won't see any disagreement from me there. Clinton botched it bigly.No #### but that's not the point, the vast majority of these people aren't policy wonks and no one should expect them to be. I'm saying from what I can expect the average voter to glean from both campaigns, Trump's was by far more effective and not due to bigotry - in fact it was effective despite of the bigotry. Clinton just ran a ####ty, tone deaf campaign and she is to blame.
So from yout POV, these 97 percent are racist for voting for Trump, but found David Duke boringNot really. One doesn't have to think very hard to come up with more plausible alternative hypotheses. One can be a racist, support racists, and view fellow racists as unqualified, lacking in any other substantive ideas, outdated/boring, etc.
Fixed it for ya.That's what most media outlets are telling them. Huffpo I'm guessing.
And it's cousin "they didn't care about certain issues." You know, like, civil laws and stuff.
Great post Tim and spot on.Not gonna lie, I was as devastated as Koya, still am.
But- I look at the Trump supporters in this forum, most of them: SIDA, RBM, Loan Sharks, Court Jester, etc- and they're not racists, and they're not fascists. We disagree on a lot of issues but these are good dudes who love America as much as I do, and I truly believe that if Trump ever tried to do anything that was really racist or bigoted or a threat to American liberty, (I'm not talking about questionable appointments now, I'm talking about laws that actually affect people) these folks would turn against him in a heartbeat. I have no doubt of that, and I think they're representative of most people who voted for Trump.
There are others, however, who truly are racist and they supported Trump for racist reasons- but they're a small minority here and elsewhere.