***AFCC - Buffalo 15-4 at Kansas City 16-2*** (-2, 47.5) 6:30 (3 Viewers)

[Steelers4Life]

I'm not whining at all.

You've been whining about KC since before the game even began as early as two weeks ago. That sounds not just like whining, but self-interested whining. That a Steelers fan is complaining about league favoritism is more ironic than the examples Alanis Morrisette gave in that song of hers.

But forget motive, the game wasn't officiated that poorly. I knew (yes, I did) that they were going to have trouble spotting the ball from about play four of the game when they looked at each other all confused about a spot. "Here we go," I thought. "Grist for the mill." Alle's lay looked like a first down to me. As a Jets fan this year, though, and somebody who watches every game all year, the officials are horrible at spotting the ball these days, especially (and I don't care what anybody says) with those two female referees running around unable to keep up with play.

That could be something to spend energy on when complaining. Complain about things that are tangible and real, not conspiracy theories that hold no water nor a candle to Occam's razor, which is that the officials are just plain bad. For everyone.

The ironic thing is that the refs only seemed to have a hard time spotting the ball on a few would-be first downs for the Bills. But, when Hopkins caught his one pass with 6:30 left in the 1st quarter and he looked close, the line judge initially marked him short by about a yard. Magically, they made the decision to move the ball forward and give the Chiefs a first down. Funny how that works, huh?

I think I made one post early when Allen was hit borderline late out of bounds that itll be interesting to see if a similar hit on Mahomes would also be treated the same way. I didn't get involved in any pre-game debate, certainly wasnt complaining before the game, but its been clear for a while now how that would all go. The Bills would've needed to overcome that and didnt.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

My wrongness is usually of a duller variety.

Nothing dull about you, Alex. Aside from that time you slept through the SATs because you were borrowing diet pills from Mallory's friend.

I have a real story of taking a CFA exam that is more extreme than that Family Ties episode lol

 

[ZADO]

According to pro football reference that one (or two really) first down call shifted KCs win probability from 40% to 60% at the time the call was made.

It definitely didn’t decide the game.

We often try to distill games down to one moment or one reason why a team won, then someone else can jump in with an argument - well Kincaid should have caught that pass as an example.

The reality is, no one play decides any game. But as the game progresses win probability starts to come into focus and an incorrect (or bias) call moved win probability 20% in favour of one team. To me that is something worth correcting.

I think at that type of "tipping point" in a game where the percentages can swing that much based on the result of that paly..... if you are going to run a play that everybody in the stadium knows is coming.....and it hadn't really been as successful early in the game as you had hoped.....and you kept running it to the exact same side (left)....and even the announcers said KC told them before the game that they know he always go left....you better be able to execute it well enough to leave no doubt on the spot.....

Correct.

Leaving the game up to a spot by the referees when facing Kansas City is going to leave you short 100% of the time.

Regardless, the side judge who ACTUALLY COULD SEE THE BALL was running onto the field to spot the ball with a first down. The side just who couldn't see the ball is the one who marked it short. It's not exactly surprising when looking at how the close calls went as a whole in that game and previous Chiefs games.

doesn't matter which side actually.....it's almost a total guessing game from either side and easy to see how two guys might have different spots....luckily the play was reviewed and determined that the spot was correct....

man, your name says it all

 

[rockaction]

I have a real story of taking a CFA exam that is more extreme than that Family Ties episode lol

Oh no. I'm trying to ask for more info. delicately but failing here.

 

[JohnnyU]

The booth ref should have used the sky cam to make the call. It clearly shows Allen getting the first down.

I don't think it clearly showed anything. That's why they went to review and didn't reverse it. We don't see the angles they had in the booth. That's an issue of transparency the NFL could work on, post hoc. You want play to move along as quickly as possible but you also want transparency. So move the game along and then show the viewers what the booth was looking at.

But the call merely stood (like Anarchy99, I listened for the language they used). It was not confirmed, but the call on the field stood because there wasn't enough evidence to overturn it. That's what I saw. I thought he had the first but then got bent back. Okay, but bad spots happen twice a game at least. That's what people aren't discussing here. There's no conspiracy—they blow that call all the time.

And I thought, like Stinkin Ref did, that the guy placing him behind the line to gain had a better view than the other guy who marked him ahead. The guy with the better view just blew the call, IMHO.

I disagree, and we can do that respectfully, I thought the sky cam clearly showed Allen getting the first down.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Bad spots against the Bills

vs good spot for Hopkins when line judge changed his mind

For anyone who didn't see the videos I was referring to, here they are. Amazing how differently the situations were treated by the refs when the Bills had the ball vs when the Chiefs had the ball. Once is a fluke, but it happened more than a couple times in the game. They kind of get lost during the game when they aren't in a key moment, but pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Anarchy99]

Bad spots against the Bills

vs good spot for Hopkins when line judge changed his mind

For anyone who didn't see the videos I was referring to, here they are. Amazing how differently the situations were treated by the refs when the Bills had the ball vs when the Chiefs had the ball. Once is a fluke, but it happened more than a couple times in the game. They kind of get lost during the game when they aren't in a key moment, but pretty interesting stuff.

The first one with Cools looks to me like his knee was down before he lunges past the marker. Same thing with Kincaid. It's not always where the player extends the ball to, as he could already have been down. I have a hard time seeing where the players were on the ones when they went out of bounds. For example, on the Copper one, I can't tell if he stepped on the sideline before he extended the ball. Just because someone makes a video doesn't make the calls as obvious as the video makes them out to be. IMO, Hopkins got pushed out of bounds past the marker. Isn't the point to get the ball spotted where it belongs? Again, I have no dog in this fight, and people could probably comb through game footage and find calls that benefitted BUF.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Bad spots against the Bills

vs good spot for Hopkins when line judge changed his mind

For anyone who didn't see the videos I was referring to, here they are. Amazing how differently the situations were treated by the refs when the Bills had the ball vs when the Chiefs had the ball. Once is a fluke, but it happened more than a couple times in the game. They kind of get lost during the game when they aren't in a key moment, but pretty interesting stuff.

The first one with Cools looks to me like his knee was down before he lunges past the marker. Same thing with Kincaid. It's not always where the player extends the ball to, as he could already have been down. I have a hard time seeing where the players were on the ones when they went out of bounds. For example, on the Copper one, I can't tell if he stepped on the sideline before he extended the ball. Just because someone makes a video doesn't make the calls as obvious as the video makes them out to be. IMO, Hopkins got pushed out of bounds past the marker. Isn't the point to get the ball spotted where it belongs? Again, I have no dog in this fight, and people could probably comb through game footage and find calls that benefitted BUF.

It looks like Cooks easily had the first down because the ball was a yard ahead of his knee when his knee touched. Zoom in and it's pretty clear. Same with Kincaid, and Cooper's looked pretty far off too. Even the announcers called it that way on each of them and were surprised that they marked it short.

Agreed, looked like Hopkins had the first down just like Cooper did. The difference is that the line judge was short on the Bills' placements and didn't adjust them, while he initially marked Hopkins short but changed his mind.

Right or wrong, I found it a little interesting that in every discretionary case, the call narrowly went in KC's favor. Were there other plays that favored Buffalo? I don't know. Asidr from the facemask that should've been either a 5 or 15 yarder, I haven't seen one anywhere.

 

[Anarchy99]

Bad spots against the Bills

vs good spot for Hopkins when line judge changed his mind

For anyone who didn't see the videos I was referring to, here they are. Amazing how differently the situations were treated by the refs when the Bills had the ball vs when the Chiefs had the ball. Once is a fluke, but it happened more than a couple times in the game. They kind of get lost during the game when they aren't in a key moment, but pretty interesting stuff.

The first one with Cools looks to me like his knee was down before he lunges past the marker. Same thing with Kincaid. It's not always where the player extends the ball to, as he could already have been down. I have a hard time seeing where the players were on the ones when they went out of bounds. For example, on the Copper one, I can't tell if he stepped on the sideline before he extended the ball. Just because someone makes a video doesn't make the calls as obvious as the video makes them out to be. IMO, Hopkins got pushed out of bounds past the marker. Isn't the point to get the ball spotted where it belongs? Again, I have no dog in this fight, and people could probably comb through game footage and find calls that benefitted BUF.

It looks like Cooks easily had the first down because the ball was a yard ahead of his knee when his knee touched. Zoom in and it's pretty clear. Same with Kincaid, and Cooper's looked pretty far off too. Even the announcers called it that way on each of them and were surprised that they marked it short.

Agreed, looked like Hopkins had the first down just like Cooper did. The difference is that the line judge was short on the Bills' placements and didn't adjust them, while he initially marked Hopkins short but changed his mind.

Right or wrong, I found it a little interesting that in every discretionary case, the call narrowly went in KC's favor. Were there other plays that favored Buffalo? I don't know. Asidr from the facemask that should've been either a 5 or 15 yarder, I haven't seen one anywhere.

I’d have to rewatch the game to see what happened the rest of the plays, and I just don’t care enough to be bothered. As for the last part, they haven’t had the five yard face mask penalty for years. It’s 15 yards or nothing.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfection concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

First, periods are your friend.

Nobody anywhere disputes how good the Chiefs have been. I've experienced plenty of success as a Steelers fan, not jealous in the least. But for anyone to look objectively at the way their games have been called recently, (not just this past Sunday), it's unrealistic to think that the Chiefs haven't been unevenly benefiting from a vast majority of close judgement calls, especially those in key moments of the games. Its been called out by announcers, talk show hosts, coaches, former players, and TV personalities. People can judge hiwever they want if its intentional or not, but it shouldn't take away a Chiefs fan's enjoyment one bit. It just has a negative impact on football for everyone else.

using words like "unevenly" implies cheating or favoritism....no matter how you spin it.....but I get it.... because when reffing basketball that is often often an angle we get from coaches and fans....."look at the foul count....it's totally lopsided"....well the thing is as officials we are not here to make sure the foul count is even....we are here to call a fair game....and sometimes calling a fair game means one team has more fouls or penalties then the other...we aren't going make something up so the foul count looks better or "more even"....we don't give a ****....we try to be consistent....bottom line....but in sports sometimes the other team just plays better then you, they play cleaner, they play with more discipline, they are well coached, they get two yards when they need one, they don't run the same play over and over again....but the losing fans don't want to talk about those things...it makes them feel better to blame it on something else....

Favoritism, yes.

Cheating, no.

I'm glad you didn't show favoritism when you reffed. I don't think all refs treat things that way whether it's consciously or subconsciously, but you shouldn't take it personally when other referees are called out. People at all levels of football and media have called them out too, and Id bet it'll be watched closely next Sunday.

in your opinion what is the difference between showing "favoritism" and cheating....as an official...they mean the same ****ing thing....

IMO it's about motivation.

I don't think they're actively trying to help the Chiefs win. But subconsciously at this point I think they've been conditioned to give the Chiefs the benefit of the doubt on close plays out of respect for Reid and Mahomes. Id like to believe there's not a directive from the NFL to give the Chiefs a few close calls per game and Id like to believe the refs don't do it for nefarious reasons. But it happens too often for even casual fans to not notice, which is why it's been called out by so many fans, tv and radio personalities, and former players.

But watching the clip of 4 or 5 times when Bills runners or receivers were clearly past a first down line, the announcers even called it a first down, only to see the refs move the ball back a yard or two makes you really think. Didn't notice them at the time, just got caught up in the game flow.

as to the bolded.....we see this several times every week in almost every game.....how many times have you seen a play live that is called a TD, looks like a TD, the announcers think it is a TD....and then when they review we end up seeing the runner was in fact short of the goal line....it happens ALL the time on ALL parts of the field...officials come in all the time and spot it shorter then it looks from our TV angle...where you initially think the runner got further then they actually did....if you watch football, you see this a lot...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

lol....we and I say we act like "just because the announcers say something, that somehow carries more weight and means something"....while they are actually at the game, they are often watching the same feed we see....so we should probably pump the brakes on that being the basis of almost every post like stelllers4 life includes it...

also just another small officiating behind the scenes nugget, that many people aren't aware of....often when a pass play goes to one side of the field, when the play is over you will often see the "covering" official glance across the field to his counterpart on the other sideline real quick.....well what is he doing....?...he is looking at his counterpart to help with "forward progress"....why...?...well as the covering official many times he is focusing on the action immediately around the ball....does he have control, does it come loose, is there a facemask or other penalty, etc....while doing so, the official can have a tendency to lose track so to speak of where the player might have progressed and was driven back from, etc. as that official is continuing to officiate "through" the play and is looking for the things I mentioned....he looks across because the guy on the opposite side, doesn't have any meaningful action going on in front of him and can often focus solely on "in his opinion" how far the runner advanced .....the "covering" official often depends on his partner on the other side to help him out in these situations...that becomes his focus almost immediately when the play goes away from him....so yeah, spotting the ball isn't an exact science....

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

 

[JohnnyU]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

looked and I can't find it....do you have a youtube link you can share...?...

 

[JohnnyU]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

looked and I can't find it....do you have a youtube link you can share...?...

Even if I posted it you would deny it. I've read your posts here and you are simply too bias. By the way, just search for refs helping the Chiefs and you will find one where they show the play on skycam. I'm not going to go and look for you when I know it won't do any good.

 

[renesauz]

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

And when the ref IS a chiefs fan, it's an impossible discussion. Stinkin Ref has a blind spot for the Chiefs, but that isn't unusual for many fans even knowledgeable ones on this board.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHERE if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

 

[ChiefD]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

 

[Joe Schmo]

I'm a Bills/Ravens fan(born in Buffalo/moved to Balt in my late teens) and I can't believe people think the refs are intentionally aiding ANY team let alone the Chiefs. Close calls, missed callas and bad calls for and against? Yes, but done to tilt the game to favor an outcome? Not a chance, Sheet happens, and all teams benefit from time to time.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

just got an issue with the clearly botched and obvious and everybody but chiefs fans KNOWS he got it group hiding behind their keyboards with nothing to back it up....it wasn't any of those....many people thought he got it and that is fine.....but the spin that it was obvious and another indication of the refs blatantly helping the chiefs is just inaccurate and unjustified by the tape...everything I have seen shows it was really close....and those not seeing it through hater glasses admit it wasn't definitive and it wasn't obvious....99% of America knows it was a first down....c'mon man....99% of America wanted it to be a first down is a little more accurate...

 

[Cowboysfan8]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

just got an issue with the clearly botched and obvious and everybody but chiefs fans KNOWS he got it group hiding behind their keyboards with nothing to back it up....it wasn't any of those....many people thought he got it and that is fine.....but the spin that it was obvious and another indication of the refs blatantly helping the chiefs is just inaccurate and unjustified by the tape...everything I have seen shows it was really close....and those not seeing it through hater glasses admit it wasn't definitive and it wasn't obvious....99% of America knows it was a first down....c'mon man....99% of America wanted it to be a first down is a little more accurate...

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

 

[JohnnyU]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

just got an issue with the clearly botched and obvious and everybody but chiefs fans KNOWS he got it group hiding behind their keyboards with nothing to back it up....it wasn't any of those....many people thought he got it and that is fine.....but the spin that it was obvious and another indication of the refs blatantly helping the chiefs is just inaccurate and unjustified by the tape...everything I have seen shows it was really close....and those not seeing it through hater glasses admit it wasn't definitive and it wasn't obvious....99% of America knows it was a first down....c'mon man....99% of America wanted it to be a first down is a little more accurate...

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

People used to complain that Tom Glavine used to get strikes on the outside of the plate that others didn't.

 

[ShamrockPride]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

just got an issue with the clearly botched and obvious and everybody but chiefs fans KNOWS he got it group hiding behind their keyboards with nothing to back it up....it wasn't any of those....many people thought he got it and that is fine.....but the spin that it was obvious and another indication of the refs blatantly helping the chiefs is just inaccurate and unjustified by the tape...everything I have seen shows it was really close....and those not seeing it through hater glasses admit it wasn't definitive and it wasn't obvious....99% of America knows it was a first down....c'mon man....99% of America wanted it to be a first down is a little more accurate...

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

No, he doesn't.

"Superstar calls" would inherently indicate that refs have bias (subconscious or not), or otherwise aren't impartial, and refboy here can't imagine living a world like that.

 

[JohnnyU]

I'm a Bills/Ravens fan(born in Buffalo/moved to Balt in my late teens) and I can't believe people think the refs are intentionally aiding ANY team let alone the Chiefs. Close calls, missed callas and bad calls for and against? Yes, but done to tilt the game to favor an outcome? Not a chance, Sheet happens, and all teams benefit from time to time.

Well, that surely is the easy answer and easy way out of it. I don't think the refs are cheating on purpose, but I do believe subconscious bias is a real thing.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Sheet happens, Chiefs are not getting anything more than any other winning team gets, they just happen to win more and garner more scrutiny. The Ravens And Bills benefited from calls this year as well it just happened they were playing the Jets and Browns so no one cared, Life goes on and the leagues game integrity remains as stout as ever.

 

[JohnnyU]

Sheet happens, Chiefs are not getting anything more than any other winning team gets, they just happen to win more and garner more scrutiny. The Ravens And Bills benefited from calls this year as well it just happened they were playing the Jets and Browns so no one cared, Life goes on and the leagues game integrity remains as stout as ever.

...again, easiest answer.

 

[ChiefD]

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

People used to complain that Tom Glavine used to get strikes on the outside of the plate that others didn't.

Man, that whole pitching staff got 6" on both sides of the plate. That was criminal what they got away with.

 

[JohnnyU]

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

People used to complain that Tom Glavine used to get strikes on the outside of the plate that others didn't.

Man, that whole pitching staff got 6" on both sides of the plate. That was criminal what they got away with.

I'm a huge Braves fan too. I don't think the entire staff got that as much as Glavine did. Greg Maddux was a master painting the corners and that was legit.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

And I STILL think Mahomes wins the game regardless of that call!!!

 

[Alex P Keaton]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

just got an issue with the clearly botched and obvious and everybody but chiefs fans KNOWS he got it group hiding behind their keyboards with nothing to back it up....it wasn't any of those....many people thought he got it and that is fine.....but the spin that it was obvious and another indication of the refs blatantly helping the chiefs is just inaccurate and unjustified by the tape...everything I have seen shows it was really close....and those not seeing it through hater glasses admit it wasn't definitive and it wasn't obvious....99% of America knows it was a first down....c'mon man....99% of America wanted it to be a first down is a little more accurate...

Already explained repeatedly that I’m not a Chiefs fan, not an AFC West fan, not a Buffalo fan. I love great football. And that game was great — but seeing Mahomes face even more adversity and STILL winning would have been better!!

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

People used to complain that Tom Glavine used to get strikes on the outside of the plate that others didn't.

Man, that whole pitching staff got 6" on both sides of the plate. That was criminal what they got away with.

On the flip side, David Justice got away with 9”. Allegedly. Which is still less than Nick Foles.

 

[JohnnyU]

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

People used to complain that Tom Glavine used to get strikes on the outside of the plate that others didn't.

Man, that whole pitching staff got 6" on both sides of the plate. That was criminal what they got away with.

On the flip side, David Justice got away with 9”. Allegedly. Which is still less than Nick Foles.

That's what Halle Berry said.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

TBH....I have been looking and can't find a clip/replay that shows that he no doubt clearly got it....does anybody have one ....

The skycam shows him definitely getting it. I saw it on YouTube. I’m sure you can find it.

I think what it comes down to is .....every non KC fan thinks by coming up with all these conspiracies theories, complaints, whining, crying, etc....that it will somehow take away the satisfaction from Chiefs fans over the success that they have had....like it somehow cheapens it in some way....sorry to disappoint but I don't think they are getting the desired result ....probably the opposite in fact....kind of embracing it at this point and other fans crying and whining actually adds the frosting to the cake....

feel bad to see other fan bases completely lose their mind every week...and you get to the point where you feel sorry that it has gotten to that level for them....they can't just take a loss for a loss and lose with any grace....it has to be something else...has KC "gotten" some calls over the last few years....?...I don't like the word gotten or went their way because it reeks of favoritism.....but yeah good teams do in general, in every sport, sometimes appear to end up on the good side ....so yeah things have gone well at times....

they have also been on the "other side" of calls as well.....I have tried to fight the narrative in hear because I truly don't think the refs are cheating or operate under some unconscious bias or whatever people go to....I don't think Tim Donaghy became a football ref all of a sudden...in many sports like boxing, they say leave no doubt....on the majority of the plays people are crying about, teams didn't execute well enough....did the two defenders break up the Worthy play well enough...?...did a ref trip Kincaid when he dropped it...?....did the ref not push Allen hard enough in the back to get through the line....I don't know...

as a 30+ year official of football, basketball. baseball, and softball ....I also tried to just give a very distant view from an officials perspective.....I'm a nobody in the officiating world ....but I do kinda know what goes on behind the scenes and the integrity it takes to ref and what you have to go through to work your way up....so combine that with being a KC fan and it's almost like the perfect concoction to fight the fight in these discussions.....it's just a message board and I know it's a losing battle......good luck to your team or whoever is playing the Chiefs each week....

Similar to you, I don’t believe the refs are rigging the games. Nor do I think they intentionally make calls to favor Mahomes. Nor do I think the refs are a primary reason for KC’s success — quite contrary, if we could go back in time and reverse that abysmal 4th down ball placement, my gut is that Mahomes still finds a way to win! He’s that good!!

But see, here is where you and I differ:
1. I’m unafraid to admit that refs are human, suffer from inherent bias, and CLEARLY botched multiple key calls in favor of the Chiefs the past couple years

2. I don’t think most people complaining about this want to cheapen KCs success. They just want to watch an evenly called game.

3. Many people who are impartial fans (like me) who have no skin in the game simply want to see the best game possible (!!!) and we didn’t get that — we were robbed of a more exciting game by the refs.

4. The NFL could do SOMETHING to address this — but they choose not to, because Goodell doesn’t give a **** about the product he puts out there for the fans — he only cares about short term monetary gain.

It’s really hard to be a ref. In any sport, at any level. Really hard. I was a soccer ref for a decade plus. Have heard it all from coaches and parents. Didn’t always get every call right. It happens.

I just sat through a JV basketball game for a friend’s HS kid. Nobody on either sideline was happy with the officiating (which bluntly was mixed, bad calls both ways). I’m convinced one of the refs has never played basketball based on his attitude and knowledge. But realistically, he’s just a dude doing his best, like almost every ref I know. Which I think is a big part about what I enjoy from your perspective as a long-time ref. You’ve lived it, and that means your experience is a valuable perspective for all of us to benefit from. I thank you for that, even when I disagree with portions of your comments.

appreciate your post....as to the bolded...was the 4th down spot CLEARLY botched...?

Yep. Everyone except refs and Chiefs fans can see that.

lol....I guess "clearly" means different things to different people...

Yep. And I have a rule in life which is basically “don’t try to solve for the 1% of people who are outliers.”

99% of America saw the play and knows it was a 1st down. The remaining 1% were either Chiefs fans or referees.

But again — even if that single play got reversed, it still doesn’t mean the Bills would have automatically won the game. Far, far from it.

everything is going ok until spit this noise...then it just takes away from everything you say....this is quite the exaggeration and obviously just continued fishing at this point....cast away...

fishing lol. You just don’t like the answer…..for some reason it’s like you were the ref and feel the need to defend him.

I just simply asked for a clip showing that he clearly got the first down since it was so obvious to 99% of America and to everybody but chiefs fans....I can't find one and nobody here will provide one....you would think they would be EVERYWHER if it was so obvious and clearly botched...

eta: just went and tried searching again....every replay I see they basically say "it wasn't definitive"....it was very close....etc....not a one I found said it was very clear or obvious...

Our house thought he got a first down.

The Chiefs were very fortunate there. As usual.


I mean, come on here ref. You are beating this into the ground at this point.

just got an issue with the clearly botched and obvious and everybody but chiefs fans KNOWS he got it group hiding behind their keyboards with nothing to back it up....it wasn't any of those....many people thought he got it and that is fine.....but the spin that it was obvious and another indication of the refs blatantly helping the chiefs is just inaccurate and unjustified by the tape...everything I have seen shows it was really close....and those not seeing it through hater glasses admit it wasn't definitive and it wasn't obvious....99% of America knows it was a first down....c'mon man....99% of America wanted it to be a first down is a little more accurate...

Do you watch baseball? Do you think certain pitchers get a few inches off the corners that others don’t?

I really don't....I can't remember the last time I watched a full baseball game....

 

[Lansdowne]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Found the clip pretty easily. The second angle is the sky cam view. You can reach your own conclusion from there.

 

[IHEARTFF]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Found the clip pretty easily. The second angle is the sky cam view. You can reach your own conclusion from there.

I think he probably gets it, but why is the white line moving? Makes it more difficult than it should be.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Found the clip pretty easily. The second angle is the sky cam view. You can reach your own conclusion from there.

I think he probably gets it, but why is the white line moving? Makes it more difficult than it should be.

yeah I mean if anything it is definitely still not clear or obvious or botched....isn't a no doubter...so it should put this discussion to bed....

 

[crushedspirit]

It's easy to see the skycam shot is at an angle behind the play and not overhead, (looks to be at least 3 yards behind the play). This will obviously give the impression the ball is further ahead than it really is because you're looking at it tilted. Basic geometry in play.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Found the clip pretty easily. The second angle is the sky cam view. You can reach your own conclusion from there.

I think he probably gets it, but why is the white line moving? Makes it more difficult than it should be.

I assume that white line isn’t superimposed on the version the video reviewer uses because it seems inaccurate. For me this is inconclusive and would not support overturning the call on the field.

 

[JohnnyU]

Anyone notice how the media conversations before the Super Bowl have swung towards officiating over the game itself? That should make you take a step back and think about that for a minute. What does that tell you about the health of biggest show in sports?

 

[Joe Schmo]

Anyone notice how the media conversations before the Super Bowl have swung towards officiating over the game itself? That should make you take a step back and think about that for a minute. What does that tell you about the health of biggest show in sports?

It tells me people are tired of the Chiefs winning and are getting grumpy to the point of pitching fits over anything to take the shine off their accomplishments. Reminds me of the Pats hate for the previous 20 years of which I was(and am) a big proponent. Eff the Pats!!

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Anyone notice how the media conversations before the Super Bowl have swung towards officiating over the game itself? That should make you take a step back and think about that for a minute. What does that tell you about the health of biggest show in sports?

It tells me people are tired of the Chiefs winning and are getting grumpy to the point of pitching fits over anything to take the shine off their accomplishments. Reminds me of the Pats hate for the previous 20 years of which I was(and am) a big proponent. Eff the Pats!!

that's the "easy" answer....he doesn't like the easy answers.... even if they are correct......it has to be something conspiracy related or unconscious related....please try again...

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Anyone notice how the media conversations before the Super Bowl have swung towards officiating over the game itself? That should make you take a step back and think about that for a minute. What does that tell you about the health of biggest show in sports?

Obviously the media is going to press the hot topics of the day. It's the worst two weeks of the season for them and us. It's not like these guys are hard hitting investigative journalists. They are happy to feed whatever hot theories are trending.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Anyone notice how the media conversations before the Super Bowl have swung towards officiating over the game itself? That should make you take a step back and think about that for a minute. What does that tell you about the health of biggest show in sports?

Obviously the media is going to press the hot topics of the day. It's the worst two weeks of the season for them and us. It's not like these guys are hard hitting investigative journalists. They are happy to feed whatever hot theories are trending.

please be careful....this is bordering on making sense....which could be misconstrued as "easy"....again, not allowed here when giving answers...

 

[The Duff Man]

Record haul here. Well done

 

[Ministry of Pain]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Found the clip pretty easily. The second angle is the sky cam view. You can reach your own conclusion from there.

I think he probably gets it, but why is the white line moving? Makes it more difficult than it should be.

yeah I mean if anything it is definitely still not clear or obvious or botched....isn't a no doubter...so it should put this discussion to bed....

You would agree that had Buffalo been given the first down, replay would not have overturned it

 

[Stinkin Ref]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

Found the clip pretty easily. The second angle is the sky cam view. You can reach your own conclusion from there.

I think he probably gets it, but why is the white line moving? Makes it more difficult than it should be.

yeah I mean if anything it is definitely still not clear or obvious or botched....isn't a no doubter...so it should put this discussion to bed....

You would agree that had Buffalo been given the first down, replay would not have overturned it

100%.....it was very close....very close...definitely not clearly botched or obvious or a no doubter...and let's be honest.....if BUF did get it.....the venom and noise from the KC side of things would not have been nearly as loud or whiney as it has from those with a severe case of chiefs fatigue....