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"Americans Dramatically Misunderstand Risk of Dying from Covid" ...You Don't Say (1 Viewer)

The Commish said:
ah...I see, it's the lesson in what "treatment" means in this context....sorry, don't have the energy and I'm not confident it would matter to you what info I gave you in the first place.  I'll just leave it at this.  There are drug cocktails and therapeutics being tested with some success.  Those range from helping to keep the virus from spreading to vital organs to "comfort" kinds of practices that are all considered "treatments" for the virus.  We've learned that some approaches don't work and have altered those approaches accordingly.
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You are utterly awful.  "Being tested" is not "there is a treatment"  You sir are out of this conversation and quite frankly shame on you.

PLEASE..someone explain to me what this "treatment" does.   And why we cannot roll it out to everyone.

We have a flu treatment...it's not a cure..but it's a treatment.  We have a treatment for pneumonia..Not a cure, but a treatment.  We dont shelter in place because of those things.

You guys always try to be so smart..Prove your logic here.

 
Skoo said:
I'm really trying to help you out, but you're not making sense at this point.

What exactly are you asking?
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I am asking specifically what the covid treatment does and why we cannot utilize it in this country and get people back to work without masks on their faces at football games.

 
supermike80 said:
You guys aggravate me sometimes.  You cant look past how ridiculous you look and sound when you say there are treatments for covid but we still have businesses shut down, we don't have sports..sending kids to school is a gigantic debate.   I just don't understand you.

Most people who become ill with COVID-19 will be able to recover at home. No specific treatments for COVID-19 exist right now. But some of the same things you do to feel better if you have the flu — getting enough rest, staying well hydrated, and taking medications to relieve fever and aches and pains — also help with COVID-19.

In the meantime, scientists are working hard to develop effective treatments. Therapies that are under investigation include drugs that have been used to treat malaria and autoimmune diseases; antiviral drugs that were developed for other viruses, and antibodies from people who have recovered from COVID-19.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/treatments-for-covid-19
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Its not everyone else's fault that you try to play gotcha with how you phrase statements and questions.

Treatments for people who get COVID to better care for them...steps to take to lessen the severity (like prone beds....).  This does not mean we get to stop taking measures to lessen the spread as much as possible.  This does not mean it is gone...this does not mean its 100% effective for everyone.  Yes...many of those things help with Covid 19.  Unlike the flu...it spreads fast and wide affecting more people as a novel virus (and fewer antibodies out there in people's bodies...among many other differences that make the measures taken necessary...like distancing, masks and so on...).

 
supermike80 said:
I am asking specifically what the covid treatment does and why we cannot utilize it in this country and get people back to work without masks on their faces at football games.
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Oh, ok. I don't know the details but Remdesivir has been the best treatment so far. It's a treatment, which means it helps people survive once contracting COVID.

The parts I think you may be (intentionally) missing:

1. This does not mean NO ONE will die from COVID. It means LESS people will die after contracting COVID.

2. It does nothing to stop the spread of the virus.

 
TripItUp said:
There's plenty of data out there...I spent 30 seconds and provided two links.
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Right...one from April...since then the China conspiracy has been revisited and well, doesn't really fit the narrative you presented as "fact" and then one from June stating that India was ill-equipped to report accurately.  Would you say that our inability to report correctly and their inability to report correctly would be a general wash from a statistical perspective?  Seems like they are having similar issues as we are.  That's to say, generally speaking, for all those countries like India and the US who are struggling, isn't it logical to acknowledge they are all screwed up and the best numbers we have are the ones they are providing?

 
supermike80 said:
You are utterly awful.  "Being tested" is not "there is a treatment"  You sir are out of this conversation and quite frankly shame on you.

PLEASE..someone explain to me what this "treatment" does.   And why we cannot roll it out to everyone.

We have a flu treatment...it's not a cure..but it's a treatment.  We have a treatment for pneumonia..Not a cure, but a treatment.  We dont shelter in place because of those things.

You guys always try to be so smart..Prove your logic here.
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We have flu vaccines...as well as treatments to fight symptoms (fever and so on...).

We have allergy treatments (like claritin...shots....) which lessen the symptoms but aren't cures.  But they are treatments.  Things that have improved over time as well.  We have treatments for different cancers that lengthen people's lives but don't always "cure" them...

None of which means we stop doing other things to prevent getting said diseases ( like for some cancers...we warn about smoking)...for allergies you avoid the foods you may be allergic too or being outside when conditions are bad for things you are allergic to...or not riding horses if you are allergic to horses.

For Covid...we try to limit the spread through distances, things being closed, avoiding large gatherings, face masks.   We have improved treatments in medical facilities...like prone beds, different drugs being used to help and so on.  And as we know more and more...treatment will likely improve.

We don't shelter in place because many of the things you are listing are not nearly as contagious spreading like this.  For the flu...yes, when you show symptoms you are told to shelter in place...you are told to not go to school or work or so on.

Or...you can continue to be so condescending, snarky, and insult people instead and blame it all on everyone else.

 
supermike80 said:
You are utterly awful.  "Being tested" is not "there is a treatment"  You sir are out of this conversation and quite frankly shame on you.

PLEASE..someone explain to me what this "treatment" does.   And why we cannot roll it out to everyone.

We have a flu treatment...it's not a cure..but it's a treatment.  We have a treatment for pneumonia..Not a cure, but a treatment.  We dont shelter in place because of those things.

You guys always try to be so smart..Prove your logic here.
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Like I said....an understand of what "treatment" is in this context is imperative.  It's pretty clear you have no interest in that discussion.  I like that you think this is anything close to resembling a "conversation" though.  :lol:  

The best "treatment" (by your narrow definition) is wearing masks and social distancing.  Shockingly, that applies to the flu as well as the best "treatment" as well, but it appears many of us are incapable and demand medicine fix it so we aren't inconvenienced.  Shocking that such a selfish population would take this position, no?

 
Skoo said:
Oh, ok. I don't know the details but Remdesivir has been the best treatment so far. It's a treatment, which means it helps people survive once contracting COVID.

The parts I think you may be (intentionally) missing:

1. This does not mean NO ONE will die from COVID. It means LESS people will die after contracting COVID.

2. It does nothing to stop the spread of the virus.
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True with any treatment.  So why are we keeping everyone home? Why are small businesses being destroyed? Why cant we get our kids back to school? Why cant we play football?

Do you understand how utterly silly you sound when you say "there is a treatment for Covid"    Better to be like the commish and at least say there are trials.  

 
supermike80 said:
True with any treatment.  So why are we keeping everyone home? Why are small businesses being destroyed? Why cant we get our kids back to school? Why cant we play football? 
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Because over 170,000 Americans died over the last 5 months.

Not sure how to make it any simpler for you. I certainly tried.

 
Skoo said:
A TREATMENT IS NOT A CURE

Ok, I'm done feeding the trolls everyone.

My bad.
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You keep saying this and it continues to make no sense  I posted a link that says there is NO treatment.  This has not been disputed. Commish posted info about trials, but that was a waste of time.  What does this treatment do exactly?  Please help me understand.  What happens with this covid treatment?????

 
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As has been repeated many times...the treatments don’t  work for everyone.  There are still also effects even if you get it and don't die.  Distancing, masks, closures are to help slow and prevent the spread as much as possible.

 
supermike80 said:
You keep saying this and it continues to make no sense  I posted a link that says there is NO treatment.  This has not been disputed. Commish posted info about trials, but that was a waste of time.  What does this treatment do exactly?  Please help me understand.  What happens with this covid treatment?????
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So anti-virals are not treatments? I’m confused by what you’re trying to say. 

 
supermike80 said:
You keep saying this and it continues to make no sense  I posted a link that says there is NO treatment.  This has not been disputed. Commish posted info about trials, but that was a waste of time.  What does this treatment do exactly?  Please help me understand.  What happens with this covid treatment?????
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Sorry, I'm done acting as Google for the day.

Take some time, do some research. There's tons of COVID-related information available on the internet.

This is probably a decent place to start: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Best of luck in your research!

 
supermike80 said:
Anti-Vrals work on COVID?  OMG this keeps getting better.  I hope the big 10 reads this forum and reinstates football season
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Well I don’t know the answer to this question. I do know that it is being studied and tested. Can you definitively say that it’s not working?

 
supermike80 said:
I swear on my life you guys are just just punking me. You just cant be serious

Is there a treatment for the coronavirus disease?

Currently, there are no specific drugs approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for treatment or prevention of COVID-19. Treatment remains largely supportive and includes prevention and management of complications.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/pediatric-hcp.html#:~:text=Currently%2C there are no,and management of complications.
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You answered your own question. It's silly, actually. I bolded it for you.

To give you a little clarification, treatment does NOT only equal drugs.  

 
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moleculo said:
Joe Bryant said:
Accurately assessing risk. 
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do you mean the man on the street or policy makers?  I'd argue that it's not really important what the man on the street thinks relative to someone charged with setting policy.
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I think that even with perfect information informing perfect policy decisions wouldn't make as much of a difference as the shifting public perception of the "man on the street" when it comes to whether there will demand for products and services and the degree that there are those willing to supply it.  I'm not saying that stay at home orders or x% occupancy or social distancing or etc. mandates have no impact, just that I think that the impact is far less than the fear, comfort, economic outlook, cabin fever, etc. of the consuming masses.

Granted better informed policy makers showing leadership in educating the masses would help to the degree that you believe that the masses accept and absorb such information.

 
gianmarco said:
You answered your own question. It's silly, actually. I bolded it for you.

To give you a little clarification, treatment does NOT only equal drugs.  
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or a cure, or a solution (those are different words for a reason).  The reason to why we are "closed" (which we aren't) is because people continue to refuse to social distance and wear masks.  That's the answer to every legit "why" question he's put out there.  For perspective, if everyone had done those two things starting immediately in March, we'd likely be talking about how bad team X was going to destroy team Y or how messed up the preseason college football rankings are.  

 
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The Commish said:
Would you say that our inability to report correctly and their inability to report correctly would be a general wash from a statistical perspective?  Seems like they are having similar issues as we are.  
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No, I would not say its a wash.

Too many other variables involved.

 
supermike80 said:
Do you guys think there is anything to the idea that the medical community botched this thing initially?  No, I think we did the best we could based on the available knowledge of the virus and its treatment. Botched means unsuccessful because of being poorly done : spoiled by mistakes. In the absence of definitive data, covid-19 was initially handled like similar respiratory processes, using existing infrastructure, and I don't think it was a mistake to treat it that way at the time.  I'm not saying it was deliberate or anything close to that. 

However I remember here in MI if you were diagnosed with covid...bam...admitted to the hospital. This isn't exactly germane to your original question, though the implication is more people were dying of covid because they were hospitalized unnecessarily. Not only is your statement false (plenty of people weren't admitted, even early on), patients who eventually died of covid- 19 surely would not have done better by staying home.   Now you're told to monitor like other things.  Rest fluids get to the hospital if certain things happen. This is exactly the advice people with mild disease have always been given, though we err to hospitalize marginal patients and those with inadequate home resources, including some simply because they can't safely self-quarantine.

Michigan is seeing 400-700 or so new cases per day.   But the death count is in single digits.  Of course this is good but whats changed? A lot has changed.

1. Hospitals are better prepared for covid patients. We've converted a lot of beds to account for isolation needs. PPE is more readily available to facilitate their care and reduce spread to other sick patients and healthcare providers. ICU beds have also been expanded, in part because things like elective surgeries have been cancelled. Healthcare workers have been mobilized to help areas in need as well. Places like NYC and likely parts of MI were overwhelmed by the early surge, and suboptimal care (including excess deaths) surely resulted.

2. We understand the disease better, and manage it differently. While the majority of covid care is controlling symptoms (Tylenol, cough medicine and supplemental oxygen), we now know patients can tolerate low oxygen levels much better than other infections. As a result, we can delay or prevent mechanical ventilation, which is tough on the lungs even under the best circumstances. Avoiding a ventilator is associated with a much higher likelihood of surviving covid.

3. Other treatment strategies have evolved that are more specific (although not unique) to covid-19.  Activity is minimized, proning is encouraged and medications to prevent clotting are utilized more aggressively than in other types of pneumonia.

4. As we've expanded our knowledge of the protean manifestations of covid-19, we are more aware of its complications like stroke, cardiomyopathy, kidney failure, blood clots, etc. Understanding what is possible helps to know what to look for, and modify treatment earlier when associated conditions arise.

5. While there is no cure, we have experimental and compassionate use treatments. Remdesivir, dexamethasone and convalescent plasma all appear to have some benefit (primarily reducing the duration of symptoms/hospitalization), though the evidence is limited. And there are a host of therapies targeting specific aspects of the "cytokine storm", most notably tocilizumab, though I'm sure the armchair immunologists/investors would include leronlimab as well.

As an aside, there are hardly any viral diseases which we can cure, but don't conflate absence of cure with inability to treat. HIV is probably the best example. And like HIV, even as treatments improve, we shouldn't dismiss the effectiveness of non-pharmaceutical interventions (safe sex for HIV; social distancing, cough/hand hygiene, masks for SARS-CoV-2).

6. Some people have suggested the virus has mutated into a less virulent, but more contagious form. While I think there may be some truth to this, we shouldn't assume this is permanent, as there's nothing stopping it from mutating further.

7. Early infections were skewed to more vulnerable populations, with nursing home residents disproportionately represented. With a greater percentage of young people being infected,  it's understandable that mortality will drop. Moreover, expanded testing/contract tracing has allowed identification of more mild/asymptomatic cases. 

8. Although I've never seen this studied, It's plausible that the average viral inoculum causing infection has decreased with greater public awareness of the disease. Ideally you'd prefer no exposure, but lower levels of virus are more likely to be contained by your immune system, and even partial compliance with masks, etc. probably impacts this.

As jack Nicholson said in the departed.    "I think about this"

I think about it, too, especially when I see our hospital beds filling up with covid patients. In the last month, we've expanded from half a floor dedicated to covid care to three entire floors. Meanwhile our medical ICU is completely full and spilling over into surgical and other critical care units. Patients who used to go immediately to the ICU remain on the floor as well, even though they'd benefit from increased monitoring in a unit setting.

So please don't tell me to "calm down" - I'm calmly doing my job despite a bunch of people making it harder by dismissing the severity of the pandemic and ignoring simple preventative measures. It's hard to know exactly what balance is necessary to manage the economic and healthcare consequences, but from my perspective, American's aren't doing enough. Why? Because we fixate on flawed statistics like an individual's risk of dying, and try to assign blame elsewhere, instead of learning from countries that have managed the disease and gradually eased restrictions, primarily as a result of complying with NPIs.
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OK, let's try this again. The questions in the OP differ from your subsequent postings, or the message is delivered ineffectively. I've responded in red.

 
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Terminalxylem said:
OK, let's try this again. The questions in the OP differ from your subsequent postings, or the message is delivered ineffectively. I've responded in red.
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This is a great post, all of it, it's too bad it's wasted on disingenuous trolls.  Arguing somehow that they don't know the difference between a treatment and a cure, at least that is my  understanding of this insanely stupid thread.  

These people aren't interested in actually learning anything.   Myself and my wife treat covid patients every day.  It boils my blood that I can be intubating someone and a few miles down the street there is a "no mask Nevada" rally of people claiming masks "take away my freedoms".    I have had people WITH COVID refuse to wear a mask in the ER!!!   We already have 2 healthcare workers dead that I personally knew, and multiple more in town.    I get in an uber last week and the driver starts telling us how hydroxychloroquine is a miracle cure that the liberals don't want to use because of Trump - this was all unprompted, didn't say a word except "Hi" when we got in.  Someone on our city council called it a "plandemic" publicly last week and yesterday in a city council meeting called local code enforcement workers "snitches" for fining rule-breaking businesses.   Guess which political party she is in?. At this point, I don't blame any healthcare worker from just walking away.  Why risk their lives?  The obligation to put out a fire goes away when people are actively pouring fuel on it.

This has been the biggest government catastrophe in my lifetime for sure.   I'm embarrassed to be an American.   We have handled this worse than every other country in the world, and far far far worse than I could ever imagine we would.  

We have 175K DEAD PEOPLE and meanwhile they president says "it is what it is", has rallies with no masks, the ex drug addict that runs a pillow company is getting national air time for snake oil, jared is on TV saying we are doing a great job, Trump falsely claims there will be a vaccine by election day, it's all just infuriating nonsense.  

And the people that live - I've had patients get released after a MONTH in the ICU - what is the cost to their future health?   And the money we are spending on hospital costs has to be absolutely staggering, not to mention personally bankrupting tens of thousands of survivors.   But all I hear from the deniers is "but the overall mortality rate is SOOOOO low".  Tell that to the guy who has been on high flow nasal cannula for three weeks and can't even get out of bed because he gets too hypoxic. Sound like fun?  

I'm thrilled the media has been hyper-focused on covid - if the entire media was Fox news, it would be far far worse with deniers.   This issue may fix itself -at the rate we are going as a country, nearly everyone will know someone who died so maybe people like these "no mask" morons will finally believe it's real.   

 
growlers said:
This is a great post, all of it, it's too bad it's wasted on disingenuous trolls.  Arguing somehow that they don't know the difference between a treatment and a cure, at least that is my  understanding of this insanely stupid thread.  

These people aren't interested in actually learning anything. 
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Thanks. Agree it’s extremely frustrating, especially the politicization of science and medicine.

But I haven’t given up on humanity. I hope a lightbulb will go off and some posters will “get it” without having to suffer personal tragedy. Or, as @Doug B previously noted, it’s always possible someone who isn’t posting may benefit from accurate information.

Regardless, I think ignorant and faulty statements about the pandemic need to addressed, even if it feeds a few trolls along the way.

 
Terminalxylem said:
But I haven’t given up on humanity. I hope a lightbulb will go off and some posters will “get it” without having to suffer personal tragedy. Or, as @Doug B previously noted, it’s always possible someone who isn’t posting may benefit from accurate information.

Regardless, I think ignorant and faulty statements about the pandemic need to addressed, even if it feeds a few trolls along the way.
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You guys are doing the Lord’s work in this thread. Trust that there are readers on the sidelines benefiting from good information being presented.

 
TripItUp said:
LINK HERE

I think it's clear that the liberal media and the Democratic party had an agenda in creating a fear for political gain.   What a terrible thing to do.  

:rant:
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Would you be willing to infect yourself to prove your point?

 
Joe Summer said:
I have zero doubt that there are millions of people in the country who feel exactly the same as you.

I also have zero confidence that if you were infected, that you would take all the precautions necessary to prevent the spread to others.
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People like this don’t care.   They will infect others, The deniers that do fine will claim victory and then the ones that get sick show up at the hospital to risk healthcare workers lives.  It’s infuriating.  If there is a vaccine they deniers who refuse should get opted out of any treatment.   
 

the insane thing is this is a purely American problem, it’s embarrassing 

 
Terminalxylem said:
OK, let's try this again. The questions in the OP differ from your subsequent postings, or the message is delivered ineffectively. I've responded in red.
Click to expand...
Good postings. Thank you for your thoughts.    I am going to go with you do NOT think the medical community botched things early(I will admit, that was DEFINITELY a bad word to use.  Wasn't my intention)

I appreciate you putting your effort into your reply.

 
2. We understand the disease better, and manage it differently. While the majority of covid care is controlling symptoms (Tylenol, cough medicine and supplemental oxygen), we now know patients can tolerate low oxygen levels much better than other infections. As a result, we can delay or prevent mechanical ventilation, which is tough on the lungs even under the best circumstances. Avoiding a ventilator is associated with a much higher likelihood of surviving covid.

I found this one interesting.   Kind of what I was getting at with my original question.  While using the word "botched" was unintentionally inflammatory, I did wonder if we mis diagnosed or mistreated this disease early, which led to an increase in deaths.  That was all I was really wondering.  And I was not saying it happened, I asked the room if anyone thought there was something to that, and, as usual, you all pretty much lost it.  

 
Joe Summer said:
I have zero doubt that there are millions of people in the country who feel exactly the same as you.

I also have zero confidence that if you were infected, that you would take all the precautions necessary to prevent the spread to others.
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And here we again demonstrate the inability for people to process non binary options in this world.

The inability to distinguish anywhere along the spectrum between two extremes.

 
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matuski said:
Joe Summer said:
I have zero doubt that there are millions of people in the country who feel exactly the same as you.

I also have zero confidence that if you were infected, that you would take all the precautions necessary to prevent the spread to others.
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And here we again demonstrate the inability for people to process non binary options in this world.
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This sentence has nothing to do with what I wrote and makes me think that you must have accidentally responded to the wrong post.

 
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