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Answer To Backlash To 18 Games? (1 Viewer)

Invictus~Bronte

Footballguy
Why has no one in the Sports media raised this question. Players and Union Reps and many media members are against 18 games. All will fall down dead or be disabled for playing 2 more games.

Why then do certain upper echelon franchises make it to Playoffs and Championship games every season with no dropoff of quality of play, nor riddled with injuries.

Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Ravens just to name a few and are very physical clubs. So..WTF is the problem? They play 17 to 20 games EVERY YEAR

 
Why has no one in the Sports media raised this question. Players and Union Reps and many media members are against 18 games. All will fall down dead or be disabled for playing 2 more games. Why then do certain upper echelon franchises make it to Playoffs and Championship games every season with no dropoff of quality of play, nor riddled with injuries.Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Ravens just to name a few and are very physical clubs. So..WTF is the problem? They play 17 to 20 games EVERY YEAR
And now it would be 19-22 games. That's almost 1.5 regular seasons. Maybe you watched the Super Bowl this season? Green Bay was decimated by injuries all season. Yes, they made it and won anyways, but its not like the teams that make it far into the playoffs are unscathed, even with a 16-game schedule.Also, I don't think I've ever heard of the Colts or Patriots being called "physical" clubs. Maybe certain members of their defenses, but they are very much "finesse" teams.
 
Why has no one in the Sports media raised this question. Players and Union Reps and many media members are against 18 games. All will fall down dead or be disabled for playing 2 more games. Why then do certain upper echelon franchises make it to Playoffs and Championship games every season with no dropoff of quality of play, nor riddled with injuries.Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Ravens just to name a few and are very physical clubs. So..WTF is the problem? They play 17 to 20 games EVERY YEAR
Normally after those teams win the Superbowl they usually do considerably poorer the next year. Steelers didn't make the playoffs in either of the year after their past 2 superbowls. Colts lost in their first playoff game in the year after their superbowl. Patriots didn't make the playoffs after winning the superbowl in 2001. They didn't make the playoffs the year after losing in the superbowl in 2007. The Patriots did win back-to-back superbowls in 2003/2004, but besides that, usually the teams that make the superbowl usually relatively struggle the next season.
 
I agree that most of the arguments are present within a 16 game season. It's not as if some RB tears his ACL in the 17th game and someone can sit there and say no RB tore their ACL from weeks 1-16.

There are teams that "come out of the gates" poorly and are not good September teams. It might not be the same team every year, but I feel (and I assume other fans do) one can tell which teams didn't give it their all in camp.

This and when a player doesn't go full speed (diva WR or somesuch) for so many plays are the only times I believe the NFL offers a subpar product to it's fans.

Preseason can be construed as a subpar product, but they do have to see the backups in action.

Many years ago (I remember him most, he may not be the start) a player i adore, LaDainian Tomlinson, did not want to play in preseason for fear of being injured. I believe it escalated from there with other players taking time off. There was always less time for starters and an injury concern, it just seemed to increase. I do think NFL players and teams became a little extra paranoid for a few years after Robert Edwards' horrific injury-was moreso than a "healthy fear" for a little while.

I believe some of this 18 games issue is a result of all the preseason whine.

Possibly the true issue- Attendance is best when games are sold out of course. One can generally get tix for preseason. I don't believe the NFL can remedy this nor can any other sport. "Tune-up games" are what they are. As I understand it, NFL folks think of empty seats as money they could have received from fans. They also think of preseason-only fans as future season ticket buyers. We often blow off preseason around here. These people concerned with sales and stadium official types do not.

 
I see so much crap in other forums, that I am starting to wonder if the NFL doesn't pay plants to post in favor of 18 games. Time to debunk a couple arguments.

Fallacy argument #1: "If you are a true sports fan, you should want more games."

And why stop at 18? Let's make it 20. 22. 25. Heck, let's emulate the NBA / NHL at 80+ as we move towards MLB-style double headers. Come on, what fan wouldn't want Colts-Patriots twice a day, huh?

The appeal of the NFL is that almost every game counts and counts A LOT. It's very rare for teams to check out early. Players usually HAVE to go all-in on almost every play and leave it all on the field. This is what makes the game so much fun to watch. 18 games = a dilluted product. If you are a true sports fan you should want the best product: quality over quantity. There is a reason nobody cares about the NBA and the NHL until playoffs.

Fallacy argument #2: "Just expand roster sizes and it will be fine."

No, it won't be fine. By the same logic, why don't we just double the roster sizes and double the number of games? For me as a fan, players are not interchangable. I want to watch 16 games of Adrian Peterson running hard, not 18 games of Adrian Peterson coming off the field on half the plays, because he needs to be fresh in March. And if you don't think injuries would be a problem, tell me - who would the Packers be starting at CB and WR if they had to play two more games after the Superbowl?

 
I see so much crap in other forums, that I am starting to wonder if the NFL doesn't pay plants to post in favor of 18 games. Time to debunk a couple arguments.Fallacy argument #1: "If you are a true sports fan, you should want more games."And why stop at 18? Let's make it 20. 22. 25. Heck, let's emulate the NBA / NHL at 80+ as we move towards MLB-style double headers. Come on, what fan wouldn't want Colts-Patriots twice a day, huh? The appeal of the NFL is that almost every game counts and counts A LOT. It's very rare for teams to check out early. Players usually HAVE to go all-in on almost every play and leave it all on the field. This is what makes the game so much fun to watch. 18 games = a dilluted product. If you are a true sports fan you should want the best product: quality over quantity. There is a reason nobody cares about the NBA and the NHL until playoffs.Fallacy argument #2: "Just expand roster sizes and it will be fine." No, it won't be fine. By the same logic, why don't we just double the roster sizes and double the number of games? For me as a fan, players are not interchangable. I want to watch 16 games of Adrian Peterson running hard, not 18 games of Adrian Peterson coming off the field on half the plays, because he needs to be fresh in March. And if you don't think injuries would be a problem, tell me - who would the Packers be starting at CB and WR if they had to play two more games after the Superbowl?
Neither of these arguments are "fallacies," and even if they were, you haven't really debunked them anyways.Someone wanting 18 games doesn't mean they want 22, 25, or 62 games, just like you wanting to keep it at 16 games doesn't mean ou would prefer to have 6. There's no reasonable way to say that 16 games is somehow "perfect" - it just happens to be how many games there has been for awhile, so you're used to it. That doesn't make it "ideal" or perfect in any way, and I'm sure you would've argued extending the season to 16 games back when that happened for the exact same reasons.Nobody is really saying that there won't be more injuries from more games. Expanding the rosters is just one way to help offset that. Again, Adrian Peterson already comes off the field plenty to stay fresh for 16 games + the potential off-season, 16 is not the perfect number of games that a player can play "hard" for before they start to break down. And yea, the Packers had a lot of injuries, we get it, let's start making NFL policy based on the last Super Bowl teams alone.
 
Actually, both of Zdravko's arguments are fallacies. Great examples of slippery slope. Probably some good irony in there as well.

 
Again, as I've argued MANY times in the past:

1. 2 less pre-season games WILL save some of that wear and tear on Vets (admittedly not 2 games worth, but coaches will play their vets even less than before in these games because they NEED to evaluate the rookies and undrafted guys)

2. The extra bye WILL greatly help players suffering nagging injuries. How many times does a guy go on a nagging injury only to pull up lame and miss 2 weeks? Bye weeks are already huge pluses for NFL teams...the impact of an extra bye is being GROSSLY under-stated.

In the end, there will be more serious injuries, but not a lot more. It will only equate to one extra game for vets, an increase of MAJOR injuries of less than 6.5% due to playing time.

However, time missed for minor injuries should actually go DOWN (at least in terms of %s), as players will have another bye with which to nurse and "heal" minor ailments. In the end, I see no reason to expect the end of the world scenarios currently being painted.

 
I see so much crap in other forums, that I am starting to wonder if the NFL doesn't pay plants to post in favor of 18 games. Time to debunk a couple arguments.Fallacy argument #1: "If you are a true sports fan, you should want more games."And why stop at 18? Let's make it 20. 22. 25. Heck, let's emulate the NBA / NHL at 80+ as we move towards MLB-style double headers. Come on, what fan wouldn't want Colts-Patriots twice a day, huh? The appeal of the NFL is that almost every game counts and counts A LOT. It's very rare for teams to check out early. Players usually HAVE to go all-in on almost every play and leave it all on the field. This is what makes the game so much fun to watch. 18 games = a dilluted product. If you are a true sports fan you should want the best product: quality over quantity. There is a reason nobody cares about the NBA and the NHL until playoffs.Fallacy argument #2: "Just expand roster sizes and it will be fine." No, it won't be fine. By the same logic, why don't we just double the roster sizes and double the number of games? For me as a fan, players are not interchangable. I want to watch 16 games of Adrian Peterson running hard, not 18 games of Adrian Peterson coming off the field on half the plays, because he needs to be fresh in March. And if you don't think injuries would be a problem, tell me - who would the Packers be starting at CB and WR if they had to play two more games after the Superbowl?
Wow, I hope logical thinking is not an important part of your daily duties. I am having a hard time seeing all these "NFL" plants, since it seems to me that 70%+ of the responders (especially in the media) are anti-18 games. It is amazing how the vast majority of respondents back in August were pro 18 games. Using the anti 18 game arguments to their "logical" conclusions, we really only should have about a 10 game season. After all every extra game played increase the chance of injuries but 10 games would probably give each team enough games for the best teams to finish near the top and in the playoffs. The next "logical" step needs to be a reduction in playoff games, again remember every extra game is inherently going to increase the injury risk to the players, to two rounds and the playoffs or possibly even just a Conference Championship game and then the Super Bowl.All that seems to be put out is the one side of the "injury" argument, but if that is the basis for not making a change then we need to seriously look at reducing games for the "player's health". Oh wait a second, the players are not for that because .... they would get paid less. The reality of this issue is it is all $$ driven - the fact that the owners want the players to take a pay cut and play more is the real issue. The "injury" defense is just what the union put out there for the masses to consume without really thinking out that this argument begs the question about why reducing games is not being discussed. Again it all comes down to the Bennies.
 
Again, as I've argued MANY times in the past:1. 2 less pre-season games WILL save some of that wear and tear on Vets (admittedly not 2 games worth, but coaches will play their vets even less than before in these games because they NEED to evaluate the rookies and undrafted guys)2. The extra bye WILL greatly help players suffering nagging injuries. How many times does a guy go on a nagging injury only to pull up lame and miss 2 weeks? Bye weeks are already huge pluses for NFL teams...the impact of an extra bye is being GROSSLY under-stated.In the end, there will be more serious injuries, but not a lot more. It will only equate to one extra game for vets, an increase of MAJOR injuries of less than 6.5% due to playing time.However, time missed for minor injuries should actually go DOWN (at least in terms of %s), as players will have another bye with which to nurse and "heal" minor ailments. In the end, I see no reason to expect the end of the world scenarios currently being painted.
It was the same argument when there was a 14 game season, that it would be destructive to the players and the league. Now that 16 games is the accepted norm 18 is the magic number where will we see players dying on the field and the quality of play diminish. If they tackled as they were meant to instead of launching themselves at each other, the injuries would diminish not the quality of play be it 16 or 18 games. It's the players individual responsibility to take care of each other on the field, they are the ones playing, not the owners.
 
I see so much crap in other forums, that I am starting to wonder if the NFL doesn't pay plants to post in favor of 18 games. Time to debunk a couple arguments.Fallacy argument #1: "If you are a true sports fan, you should want more games."And why stop at 18? Let's make it 20. 22. 25. Heck, let's emulate the NBA / NHL at 80+ as we move towards MLB-style double headers. Come on, what fan wouldn't want Colts-Patriots twice a day, huh? The appeal of the NFL is that almost every game counts and counts A LOT. It's very rare for teams to check out early. Players usually HAVE to go all-in on almost every play and leave it all on the field. This is what makes the game so much fun to watch. 18 games = a dilluted product. If you are a true sports fan you should want the best product: quality over quantity. There is a reason nobody cares about the NBA and the NHL until playoffs.Fallacy argument #2: "Just expand roster sizes and it will be fine." No, it won't be fine. By the same logic, why don't we just double the roster sizes and double the number of games? For me as a fan, players are not interchangable. I want to watch 16 games of Adrian Peterson running hard, not 18 games of Adrian Peterson coming off the field on half the plays, because he needs to be fresh in March. And if you don't think injuries would be a problem, tell me - who would the Packers be starting at CB and WR if they had to play two more games after the Superbowl?
By this same token should the Packers just quit when they lost Grant game 1 or Finley a few weeks later? I guess an 8 game season would cure that. ( no I'm not on the NFL payroll )
 
Why has no one in the Sports media raised this question. Players and Union Reps and many media members are against 18 games. All will fall down dead or be disabled for playing 2 more games. Why then do certain upper echelon franchises make it to Playoffs and Championship games every season with no dropoff of quality of play, nor riddled with injuries.Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Ravens just to name a few and are very physical clubs. So..WTF is the problem? They play 17 to 20 games EVERY YEAR
And now it would be 19-22 games. That's almost 1.5 regular seasons. Maybe you watched the Super Bowl this season? Green Bay was decimated by injuries all season. Yes, they made it and won anyways, but its not like the teams that make it far into the playoffs are unscathed, even with a 16-game schedule.Also, I don't think I've ever heard of the Colts or Patriots being called "physical" clubs. Maybe certain members of their defenses, but they are very much "finesse" teams.
There have been Dynasties in the past from the Cowboys, 49er's, and even the Bill's 4 years in a row to the SB. whatever their "style". Some clubs are just better consistently and will thrive no matter how many games. Separate the wheat from the chafe..
 
These arguments get tiresome. No one can prove that 14, 16, 18, 20, or 22 games is the right amount. All of them would still make NFL games more meaningful than any regular season in professional sports. Injuries are a concern, but a longer season would also allow players injured earlier to come back before the end. Season ending injuries would be a bit higher, but not a lot. If I had the exact injury numbers and expected length of injuries for players that were put on IR, the math would be fairly simple to figure out how many roster spots would need to be added to make up for the extra games.

I don't think it makes much of a difference to the game either way. Because of that I'm for 18 games since all things being equal more football = better. I'm not going to be upset if things stay at 16 games though.

 
I think it'd be interesting if every team played each other in the AFC but I'd probably miss the rivalries.

If the NFL offered a plan for these two-the juiciest plan they can, so many more people could be "on board" with it.

Suppose Giants fans are whining but now the NFL says with these two games they have to play the Jets and Buffalo. We can get a NY rivalry thing. Eagles are not far away so feel free to insert them.

Or if it's extra divisional, Pack have to play Bears and Vikes one more time each?

If the NFL wants to get this through they can make the added games more appealing.

And how about those tix are sold through a box office and the season ticket holders don't get two more games? Give ordinary folks a chance to go?

Also, if added to the end of the season the cold is going to be significant. If added to the summer, some of these southern players are going to roast in the heat. They could promise Phoenix goes to a northern town, Buffalo gets to enjoy Flordia in January.

The NFL has ways to "sweeten the pot" here if they want to.

 
I just asked this in the NFLPA decertification thread but it would fit into this topic I believe. If the union decertifies, would the owners not be able to just implement an 18 game schedule without anti-trust issues? If this would create an anti-trust issue, I see no way the NFL could schedule games for this coming season. From what I have read, the Union felt the decertification process was one way to force the owners to have a season full slate of games this fall. If so, I am not sure they would have grounds to challenge the NFL making 2 preseason games into official games.

 
Wow, I hope logical thinking is not an important part of your daily duties. I am having a hard time seeing all these "NFL" plants, since it seems to me that 70%+ of the responders (especially in the media) are anti-18 games. It is amazing how the vast majority of respondents back in August were pro 18 games. Using the anti 18 game arguments to their "logical" conclusions, we really only should have about a 10 game season. After all every extra game played increase the chance of injuries but 10 games would probably give each team enough games for the best teams to finish near the top and in the playoffs. The next "logical" step needs to be a reduction in playoff games, again remember every extra game is inherently going to increase the injury risk to the players, to two rounds and the playoffs or possibly even just a Conference Championship game and then the Super Bowl.All that seems to be put out is the one side of the "injury" argument, but if that is the basis for not making a change then we need to seriously look at reducing games for the "player's health". Oh wait a second, the players are not for that because .... they would get paid less. The reality of this issue is it is all $$ driven - the fact that the owners want the players to take a pay cut and play more is the real issue. The "injury" defense is just what the union put out there for the masses to consume without really thinking out that this argument begs the question about why reducing games is not being discussed. Again it all comes down to the Bennies.
I agree, you are probably not an NFL plant - too much of a clown for that to work. Won't bite on the "logical thinking duties" bait. You seem to be getting my logic just fine, as demonstrated by your ability to extend it futher in your own argument. So, next time, find a more accurate insult.On to your points of unconstructive criticism. Yes, the extension of my logic would lead you to reduce the number of games. So allow me to stipulate that at a certain threshold the benefits from a less diluted product that fewer games bring are offset by other costs, tangible or not, and missed revenue. Feeling better? I suggest that this threshold number is 16, but it could be something else. Thus, feel free to throw me a good argument why 18 (or 20? 22?) is closer to that threshold. Also, feel free to respond why you think your 18 games preference does not lead to a dilluted product.As for the injuries part, we are clearly not talking about the same thing. You keep referring to the dollars: who gets paid how much, per game, etc, etc. As a fan, I don't care about that. As a fan, as I told ya, I don't see players as interchangable. With 18 games, I expect to see more studs rested more often and I prefer watching AP instead of Toby. Maybe you don't, that's fine. I am just telling you why increased roster sizes is not a good solution for me.
 
Why has no one in the Sports media raised this question. Players and Union Reps and many media members are against 18 games. All will fall down dead or be disabled for playing 2 more games. Why then do certain upper echelon franchises make it to Playoffs and Championship games every season with no dropoff of quality of play, nor riddled with injuries.Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Ravens just to name a few and are very physical clubs. So..WTF is the problem? They play 17 to 20 games EVERY YEAR
Normally after those teams win the Superbowl they usually do considerably poorer the next year. Steelers didn't make the playoffs in either of the year after their past 2 superbowls. Colts lost in their first playoff game in the year after their superbowl. Patriots didn't make the playoffs after winning the superbowl in 2001. They didn't make the playoffs the year after losing in the superbowl in 2007. The Patriots did win back-to-back superbowls in 2003/2004, but besides that, usually the teams that make the superbowl usually relatively struggle the next season.
Just to hone your point, are you saying that Superbowl teams don't fare so well the next year because the physical toll the game requires of them cannot be recovered from in the ensuing months off?
 
I see so much crap in other forums, that I am starting to wonder if the NFL doesn't pay plants to post in favor of 18 games. Time to debunk a couple arguments.

Fallacy argument #1: "If you are a true sports fan, you should want more games."

And why stop at 18? Let's make it 20. 22. 25. Heck, let's emulate the NBA / NHL at 80+ as we move towards MLB-style double headers. Come on, what fan wouldn't want Colts-Patriots twice a day, huh?

The appeal of the NFL is that almost every game counts and counts A LOT. It's very rare for teams to check out early. Players usually HAVE to go all-in on almost every play and leave it all on the field. This is what makes the game so much fun to watch. 18 games = a dilluted product. If you are a true sports fan you should want the best product: quality over quantity. There is a reason nobody cares about the NBA and the NHL until playoffs.

Fallacy argument #2: "Just expand roster sizes and it will be fine."

No, it won't be fine. By the same logic, why don't we just double the roster sizes and double the number of games? For me as a fan, players are not interchangable. I want to watch 16 games of Adrian Peterson running hard, not 18 games of Adrian Peterson coming off the field on half the plays, because he needs to be fresh in March. And if you don't think injuries would be a problem, tell me - who would the Packers be starting at CB and WR if they had to play two more games after the Superbowl?
Wow, I hope logical thinking is not an important part of your daily duties. I am having a hard time seeing all these "NFL" plants, since it seems to me that 70%+ of the responders (especially in the media) are anti-18 games. It is amazing how the vast majority of respondents back in August were pro 18 games. Using the anti 18 game arguments to their "logical" conclusions, we really only should have about a 10 game season. After all every extra game played increase the chance of injuries but 10 games would probably give each team enough games for the best teams to finish near the top and in the playoffs. The next "logical" step needs to be a reduction in playoff games, again remember every extra game is inherently going to increase the injury risk to the players, to two rounds and the playoffs or possibly even just a Conference Championship game and then the Super Bowl.All that seems to be put out is the one side of the "injury" argument, but if that is the basis for not making a change then we need to seriously look at reducing games for the "player's health". Oh wait a second, the players are not for that because .... they would get paid less. The reality of this issue is it is all $$ driven - the fact that the owners want the players to take a pay cut and play more is the real issue. The "injury" defense is just what the union put out there for the masses to consume without really thinking out that this argument begs the question about why reducing games is not being discussed. Again it all comes down to the Bennies.
That bolded part should be the end of the thread.It all comes down to the money. Players don't want to work more for less pay. If the owners would say OK to the expired CBA with an across the board 1/8 increase in player salaries, then we'd have an agreement in place tomorrow.

Whether the players are over or under compensated under the expired CBA is the real issue. Opinions on that question certainly differ.

 
I just asked this in the NFLPA decertification thread but it would fit into this topic I believe. If the union decertifies, would the owners not be able to just implement an 18 game schedule without anti-trust issues? If this would create an anti-trust issue, I see no way the NFL could schedule games for this coming season. From what I have read, the Union felt the decertification process was one way to force the owners to have a season full slate of games this fall. If so, I am not sure they would have grounds to challenge the NFL making 2 preseason games into official games.
Interesting point.My initial thought was that retroactively requiring additional service (18 games) over and above the amount of service previously agreed to (16 games) would create a breach of contract issue for each team for each of it's players. What team wants to litigate 50-something individual contract disputes when a new CBA could resolve all?But since you are simply making two of the preseason games "count", that might change my analysis. How does pay differ for veteran players durng preseason and post season? But, ostensibly, even if they didn't get game checks for preseason, the coach still has authority to make a veteran play the whole preseason game. So if a player refused to play the snaps in those games, whether they are preseason or not, it could be grounds for suspension without pay, correct? And with no NFLPA to complain to about the coach's unreasnable demands...
 
Wow, I hope logical thinking is not an important part of your daily duties. I am having a hard time seeing all these "NFL" plants, since it seems to me that 70%+ of the responders (especially in the media) are anti-18 games. It is amazing how the vast majority of respondents back in August were pro 18 games. Using the anti 18 game arguments to their "logical" conclusions, we really only should have about a 10 game season. After all every extra game played increase the chance of injuries but 10 games would probably give each team enough games for the best teams to finish near the top and in the playoffs. The next "logical" step needs to be a reduction in playoff games, again remember every extra game is inherently going to increase the injury risk to the players, to two rounds and the playoffs or possibly even just a Conference Championship game and then the Super Bowl.All that seems to be put out is the one side of the "injury" argument, but if that is the basis for not making a change then we need to seriously look at reducing games for the "player's health". Oh wait a second, the players are not for that because .... they would get paid less. The reality of this issue is it is all $$ driven - the fact that the owners want the players to take a pay cut and play more is the real issue. The "injury" defense is just what the union put out there for the masses to consume without really thinking out that this argument begs the question about why reducing games is not being discussed. Again it all comes down to the Bennies.
I agree, you are probably not an NFL plant - too much of a clown for that to work. Won't bite on the "logical thinking duties" bait. You seem to be getting my logic just fine, as demonstrated by your ability to extend it futher in your own argument. So, next time, find a more accurate insult.On to your points of unconstructive criticism. Yes, the extension of my logic would lead you to reduce the number of games. So allow me to stipulate that at a certain threshold the benefits from a less diluted product that fewer games bring are offset by other costs, tangible or not, and missed revenue. Feeling better? I suggest that this threshold number is 16, but it could be something else. Thus, feel free to throw me a good argument why 18 (or 20? 22?) is closer to that threshold. Also, feel free to respond why you think your 18 games preference does not lead to a dilluted product.As for the injuries part, we are clearly not talking about the same thing. You keep referring to the dollars: who gets paid how much, per game, etc, etc. As a fan, I don't care about that. As a fan, as I told ya, I don't see players as interchangable. With 18 games, I expect to see more studs rested more often and I prefer watching AP instead of Toby. Maybe you don't, that's fine. I am just telling you why increased roster sizes is not a good solution for me.
Well most of my response was sarcasm, just extending the logic you were using in the other direction. If injuries and extra games hurt the quality of football so much we should not consider 2 more official games, then we seriously need to discuss the potential quality improvements of the NFL games by reducing the number played. But no one is willing to do that it seems - the owners/players due to the $$ decrease for each and the fans because we want to see football. I guess my complaint with this whole argument is: Why is 16 games the magic number? If player health is the real issue (which I don't believe it really is from the players side - they are just using it as a PR point with the fans) then we seriously should be discussing the season dropping to 14, 12, or even 10 games so there is less likelihood of injuries and yet the better teams would likely have enough games rise to the top to setup the playoffs. This should lead to higher quality football.
 
I guess my complaint with this whole argument is: Why is 16 games the magic number?
I wouldn't say it's a magic number, just that we know, right now, this number works. For me, it is simply a matter of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.Any potential problems is all guesswork now. And if the extended season did lead to more injuries and whatnot, would they ever go BACK to a 16 game season? Of course not. The only thing we know would happen is increased revenue for the owners. I don't really care if they make more money or not, and I don't think adding two games is going to drastically change my NFL enjoyment or anything.
 
The answer to all your questions is money. Stop the post.

2 more games=increased revenue. Everything else is negotiable because every person (player, agent, etc) HAS THEIR PRICE.

I don't favor the 18 game schedule, because of many of the same concerns already listed. But it WILL happen and the only thing that hasn't been established is how much money its going to take for enough guys to say "worth it..I'm in".

This is an extreme example, but let's face it. Take the millions and play football or go do your job your scholarship degree prepered you for. You DID finish your degree and not come out early to make money one year earlier didn't you?" Ok, so let's say you learned that lesson and you still won't play. Even though youre making a fraction of what you were. Even though you're aging as I type this. Ok, well, there ARE some guys that WILL play 18 games and they just got your job. Even if the product is inferior. Even if some of the replacements are guys writing and reading these posts. They'll play. because there are guys out there that want what you have and it would be IMPROVEMENT to their life to do it (anyone remember the beer man that got his shot to play in New Orleans?). And guess what, I can wait longer than you can. Cause I'm a wealthy 60 year old owner today and i'll be a wealthy (or at least still rich) 65 year old owner in five years. You, on the other hand, are a rich 27 year old player who will be a less rich RETIRED player in five years. Let's play ball.

the answer to all your questions is money!

 
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I guess my complaint with this whole argument is: Why is 16 games the magic number?
I wouldn't say it's a magic number, just that we know, right now, this number works. For me, it is simply a matter of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.Any potential problems is all guesswork now. And if the extended season did lead to more injuries and whatnot, would they ever go BACK to a 16 game season? Of course not. The only thing we know would happen is increased revenue for the owners. I don't really care if they make more money or not, and I don't think adding two games is going to drastically change my NFL enjoyment or anything.
Why would they not return to 16 games if they went to 18, they would not want to take the pay cut (either side - owners or players). Remember the players get a % of the money generated. The less generated, the less money the players get to split up. As I have said all along - the injury/quality of play are red herrings in this and most don't seem to realize it. It is all about the $$. If the owners offered a % increase that matched adding two games to their current contract, I am certain with just a little saving face language the players would be all over it. Why, because these two additional games are supposed to bring in approximately $550+ Million in revenue that gets to be split with the players salaries.Shut Out beat me to it.
 
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Why has no one in the Sports media raised this question. Players and Union Reps and many media members are against 18 games. All will fall down dead or be disabled for playing 2 more games. Why then do certain upper echelon franchises make it to Playoffs and Championship games every season with no dropoff of quality of play, nor riddled with injuries.Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Ravens just to name a few and are very physical clubs. So..WTF is the problem? They play 17 to 20 games EVERY YEAR
Normally after those teams win the Superbowl they usually do considerably poorer the next year. Steelers didn't make the playoffs in either of the year after their past 2 superbowls. Colts lost in their first playoff game in the year after their superbowl. Patriots didn't make the playoffs after winning the superbowl in 2001. They didn't make the playoffs the year after losing in the superbowl in 2007. The Patriots did win back-to-back superbowls in 2003/2004, but besides that, usually the teams that make the superbowl usually relatively struggle the next season.
Pretty sure NE actually tied (record wise) for the division lead in 2002 and 2008, missing the play-offs on tie breakers. In 2008, they had an exceptional record (11-5) for a team to miss the play-offs, even without Brady.Agree that teams can have a SB hangover (losers and winners). Is the pressure of a SB appearance the root cause? or the toll of an extended season? Or even the chicken dinner circuit of the off-season? In any event, the point is valid, there are teams that play well year after year with more than 16 games.
 
Let's get this out of the way. Switching two preseason games to real games is not keeping the number of games the same. There is a big difference between playing glorified scrimmages and competing for the playoffs. Even this point excluded, the idea of adding more games necessitates adding more roster spots. And you are somehow supposed to fill out a complete roster with less time to evaluate talent. They say the preseason is too long...because of how long the season is. To have any chance of maintaining the quality of the game you need those 4 preseason games.

The answer to all the backlash to 18 games is money. Everybody involved gets paid more and everyone would like more money. The problem is that the players already get treated like crap so why would they want to risk themselves in two more games? If the players were treated fairly, the 18 game schedule would be no problem.

The most important thing to know about the 18 game schedule is the potential for expansion.

And remember, the Pats secondary was the main reason defensive pass violations were inacted. Illegal Contact and D Holding only came after the Pats were mauling receivers for a couple years.

 
Let's get this out of the way. Switching two preseason games to real games is not keeping the number of games the same. There is a big difference between playing glorified scrimmages and competing for the playoffs. Even this point excluded, the idea of adding more games necessitates adding more roster spots. And you are somehow supposed to fill out a complete roster with less time to evaluate talent. They say the preseason is too long...because of how long the season is. To have any chance of maintaining the quality of the game you need those 4 preseason games.The answer to all the backlash to 18 games is money. Everybody involved gets paid more and everyone would like more money. The problem is that the players already get treated like crap so why would they want to risk themselves in two more games? If the players were treated fairly, the 18 game schedule would be no problem. The most important thing to know about the 18 game schedule is the potential for expansion. And remember, the Pats secondary was the main reason defensive pass violations were inacted. Illegal Contact and D Holding only came after the Pats were mauling receivers for a couple years.
I'm curious do play special teams in the NFL for the league minimum or something? For a bunch of guys taking a job where they're "treated like crap" maybe they should consider going and putting those degrees they've supposedly earned to use from the top schools they graduated from. I'm sure there will be lines outside the Facilities every day by men looking to take those crappy jobs the players feel they aren't compensated fairly for.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with how much more they get paid than the average person. It has to do with how much money is being made on them. The special teamer especially. They get paid relative #### to run into eachother at full speed. I would not be surprised if a special teamers pay couldnt even restore his health.

The fact that any competent owner is making absolute bank on players, the majority of whom aren't getting paid hundreds of million, and aren't willing to share the wealth is a testament to how badly players have been treated. I really don't understand how the PAs offer was unfair. 50/50 split is as fair as it gets no? A rookie salary cap? Sounds fine to me. Veteran benefits? Especially considering the killing machines dedication creates.

The owners want to have their cake and eat it too. The credits allow them to have shared revenue without taking a hit.

In this game, the players are the only ones risking their lives. They deserve a larger piece of the pie.

 
It was the same argument when there was a 14 game season, that it would be destructive to the players and the league.
And wasn't the argument correct (with regard to the players)?What's the average lifespan of players who played in the era of 14 games per year? I think it's pretty short. Football is a grueling sport that takes a toll on people's bodies, and every game counts.That doesn't mean that the season definitely shouldn't be expanded to 18 games. There are benefits to doing that as well as costs. But the costs to the players' health is not make-believe. It is real, and should be included in the analysis.
 
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This has absolutely nothing to do with how much more they get paid than the average person. It has to do with how much money is being made on them. The special teamer especially. They get paid relative #### to run into eachother at full speed. I would not be surprised if a special teamers pay couldnt even restore his health.The fact that any competent owner is making absolute bank on players, the majority of whom aren't getting paid hundreds of million, and aren't willing to share the wealth is a testament to how badly players have been treated. I really don't understand how the PAs offer was unfair. 50/50 split is as fair as it gets no? A rookie salary cap? Sounds fine to me. Veteran benefits? Especially considering the killing machines dedication creates. The owners want to have their cake and eat it too. The credits allow them to have shared revenue without taking a hit. In this game, the players are the only ones risking their lives. They deserve a larger piece of the pie.
Did the owners just wake up one day and find themselves NFL franchise owners? I'm sure it didn't come easily for most of them. Regardless they are the bosses and the ones who sign the checks. I didn't realize that they have an obligation to split their profits at least down the middle with the employees who will be working for them for a brief period of time, and compensated handsomely for it. I wonder why Cops, Fireman and Miners don't demand or get a 50% profit of those they work for? How come Steelworkers who are contracted out to work a very dangerous job don't get or demand half their bosses profits while working for them? Maybe if they did they would be told to go take their meds and find another line of work.
 
It was the same argument when there was a 14 game season, that it would be destructive to the players and the league.
And wasn't the argument correct (with regard to the players)?What's the average lifespan of players who played in the era of 14 games per year? I think it's pretty short. Football is a grueling sport that takes a toll on people's bodies, and every game counts.That doesn't mean that the season definitely shouldn't be expanded to 18 games. There are benefits to doing that as well as costs. But the costs to the players' health is not make-believe. It is real, and should be included in the analysis.
And has the game been better, actually safer and the players been earning fiftyfold of what they were then? The safety issue wouldn't be an issue if they tackled like the used to when they played 14 games. The owners have also agreed to bump the retire/medical compensation considerably so I don't think it's at all unreasonable for the players to play 2 more games. And by the same token, what about the Backup QB's or the kickers , punters etc. who barely will break a sweat tying their cleats while getting well paid for the extra 2 games? No one considers that side either..
 
How do you think the owners got the money to own a franchise? Exploitation. And the continual pressure of the owners to take more money is increased exploitation. This is run of the mill class conflict.

All those dangerous jobs have people desperate enough to replace the current job holders, giving the owner all the leverage. For one, cops and fire companies arent businesses. Two, you are telling me a miner would reject 50% of the profits?

Honestly the analogy you are trying to make is fallacious. Players are already getting 40% making it different than the average job. It is more like those businesses that have arose where the workers are also the board and owners of the business

The workplace is not fair (especially in America, where worker rights are non-existent) but if the exploited has the opportunity to make things fairer it is the responsibility of those being exploited to even the playing field. I want to see you turn down a raise.

The owners are going to be absolutely crushed in litigation.

 
How do you think the owners got the money to own a franchise? Exploitation. And the continual pressure of the owners to take more money is increased exploitation. This is run of the mill class conflict. All those dangerous jobs have people desperate enough to replace the current job holders, giving the owner all the leverage. For one, cops and fire companies arent businesses. Two, you are telling me a miner would reject 50% of the profits?Honestly the analogy you are trying to make is fallacious. Players are already getting 40% making it different than the average job. It is more like those businesses that have arose where the workers are also the board and owners of the businessThe workplace is not fair (especially in America, where worker rights are non-existent) but if the exploited has the opportunity to make things fairer it is the responsibility of those being exploited to even the playing field. I want to see you turn down a raise. The owners are going to be absolutely crushed in litigation.
If you call what the players are playing for "exploitation" I really don't know how to continue a conversation. Al Davis has been exploiting his employees all these decades? JaMarcus Russell anyone? I guess it was Arthur Blank who exploited Michael Vick, and Dan Snyder who exploits his players like Albert Haynesworth.No, Cops and Fireman aren't business they are employees who work a dangerous job and get paid and receive a pension. Miners and Steelworkers are contracted out by bosses , they work a dangerous job for a paycheck and receive a pension based on the time put in. They are not ENTITLED to the contractors earnings or profits. Sound familiar?
 
I wonder why Cops, Fireman and Miners don't demand or get a 50% profit of those they work for? How come Steelworkers who are contracted out to work a very dangerous job don't get or demand half their bosses profits while working for them?
They're not as highly skilled. Not to take anything away from what firemen do; but one fireman is about as good as the next, for the most part. There are only a few thousand people in the world capable of playing football at an NFL level. A significant fraction of the population, probably more than 5% of adults in the relevant age range, would be capable of succeeding as firemen (if they wanted to).Also, I suspect that labor costs account for more than 50% of the revenues in a great many industries, including some of the ones you mentioned.
 
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I wonder why Cops, Fireman and Miners don't demand or get a 50% profit of those they work for? How come Steelworkers who are contracted out to work a very dangerous job don't get or demand half their bosses profits while working for them?
They're not as highly skilled. Not to take anything away from what firemen do; but one fireman is about as good as the next, for the most part. There are only a few thousand people in the world capable of playing football at an NFL level. A significant fraction of the population, probably more than 5% of adults in the relevant age range, would be capable of succeeding as firemen (if they wanted to).
Funny how replaceable the NFL players are individually no? The turnover is tremendous as the average career is 3.5 years, there never seems to be a lack of " Highly Skilled " talent every spring to enter the league. And even if the talent level were to drop people would still be paying to watch them. The players will come and go but the Franchise will remain. The owners know this and the players would do themselves a favor if they realize this truth as well.
 
I wonder why Cops, Fireman and Miners don't demand or get a 50% profit of those they work for? How come Steelworkers who are contracted out to work a very dangerous job don't get or demand half their bosses profits while working for them?
They're not as highly skilled. Not to take anything away from what firemen do; but one fireman is about as good as the next, for the most part. There are only a few thousand people in the world capable of playing football at an NFL level. A significant fraction of the population, probably more than 5% of adults in the relevant age range, would be capable of succeeding as firemen (if they wanted to).Also, I suspect that labor costs account for more than 50% of the revenues in a great many industries, including some of the ones you mentioned.
Really? Even if we throw out top executives? After all, they aren't the true labor pool. IN most cases, they are part-owners, or at least have the books which show exactly the company profits and thereby have the power to force better compensation. And let's face it...a CEO earning 10 million a year and a 10 man board each earning 1.5 million really skews the "labor costs" in many companies. Not trying to say your point is completely invalid...just over-stated. In most companies, NOBODY makes more than the owner (at least, not for long as companies in that position fail). In fact....in the overwhelming number of cases, nobody comes even CLOSE to what the owner makes (excepting partner CEOs). Several dozen NFL players made more than the Packers last year, and there's no reason to think the Pack were the lowest grossing team in the NFL.

I take some exception to the idea that players are "partner CEOs". More like law firm junior partners and aides...they should have a say, but they should NOT be in charge. When players make more than some clubs can claim in profits....somethings wrong.

 
Also, I suspect that labor costs account for more than 50% of the revenues in a great many industries, including some of the ones you mentioned.
Really?
Yes. Just back-of-the-envelope, but suppose that a widget-maker's return on invested capital is 10% per year. That means sales (or other revenues) are 10% higher than costs. So let's say it has sales of $110, and costs of $100. What portion of that $100 is going to be from labor? If labor is more than 55% of its costs, then it will be more than 50% of revenues. Different industries will have very different cost structures, but I suspect that in many industries (including perhaps mining, and almost certainly in all entertainment fields like film production, etc.), labor does account for over 55% of costs.
 
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Entitlement? When were business owners entitled to exploit? For thousands of years the laborer got the fruit of their labor. What entitles someone else to take that fruit and determine who gets what? Maybe you could explain to me how business has booming for 80 years yet the average wage has barely moved for 40. Why even pay workers at all? Where is their entitlement for even getting paid at all? Ridiculous. The current rift between players and owners is really a testament to how terrible worker rights are today. The owners aren't giving up real information because it is a record of how much money is being made off players.

And naming the guys who fail and get overpaid is not a testament to a lack of exploitation, it is support of human error.

I am not going to put players on a pedestal and say they are higher skilled. Their agents are also higher skilled, a fireman is higher skilled and so on. Skills are occupation specific.

It is saddening to see that your support for exploitation is that everybody else is doing it so its okay. Just because the richer person has greater leverage doesn't mean they should use that leverage to bury the poorer

 
Entitlement? When were business owners entitled to exploit? For thousands of years the laborer got the fruit of their labor. What entitles someone else to take that fruit and determine who gets what? Maybe you could explain to me how business has booming for 80 years yet the average wage has barely moved for 40. Why even pay workers at all? Where is their entitlement for even getting paid at all? Ridiculous. The current rift between players and owners is really a testament to how terrible worker rights are today. The owners aren't giving up real information because it is a record of how much money is being made off players.

And naming the guys who fail and get overpaid is not a testament to a lack of exploitation, it is support of human error.

I am not going to put players on a pedestal and say they are higher skilled. Their agents are also higher skilled, a fireman is higher skilled and so on. Skills are occupation specific.

It is saddening to see that your support for exploitation is that everybody else is doing it so its okay. Just because the richer person has greater leverage doesn't mean they should use that leverage to bury the poorer
You left the tracks early on here. Workers today have more rights, and more compensation than ever before in history. Perhaps you should spend a few weeks as a 14th century peasent in Europe, or 6th century in China, to get some perspective. Heck...go spend A SINGLE DAY in a 3rd world country today!The entire reason that we have such an enormous and vibrant middle class is because of historicly superior workers rights and compensation. When the COMMON man has a home, a car, TV, internet, etc. etc. IE: numerous LUXURIES....then the comman man is nowhere even remotely close to the poor exploited shlup you're portraying.

Pay me 4 million a year, and you can "exploit" me all you want.

 
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Again, as I've argued MANY times in the past:

1. 2 less pre-season games WILL save some of that wear and tear on Vets (admittedly not 2 games worth, but coaches will play their vets even less than before in these games because they NEED to evaluate the rookies and undrafted guys)

2. The extra bye WILL greatly help players suffering nagging injuries. How many times does a guy go on a nagging injury only to pull up lame and miss 2 weeks? Bye weeks are already huge pluses for NFL teams...the impact of an extra bye is being GROSSLY under-stated.

In the end, there will be more serious injuries, but not a lot more. It will only equate to one extra game for vets, an increase of MAJOR injuries of less than 6.5% due to playing time.

However, time missed for minor injuries should actually go DOWN (at least in terms of %s), as players will have another bye with which to nurse and "heal" minor ailments. In the end, I see no reason to expect the end of the world scenarios currently being painted.
:goodposting: The return of a double-bye week system might actually help improve the league's product late in the season and on into the playoffs. Teams will learn to manage practice reps and etc. in a way which preserves their stars' performance for the playoff push. I see NO compelling arguments against an 18-game regular season, assuming that preseason workouts and games are curtailed and rosters are expanded such that the net effect on the players is mitigated.

Football is a collision sport, and at the pro level this is doubly true. Injuries are going to happen and they are, except for certain degenerative conditions (bone-on-bone contact in the knee(s), etc), unpredictable on a person-by-person basis. Guys can blow up an ankle or a knee in week 1 or week 16 (or 18), and there is simply no avoiding that fact. The length of the schedule is only one factor in the picture - you have to include spring camps, OTA's, workouts, the intensity of in-season workouts, etc. If contact drills/weeks of exertion are trimmed prior to regular season, an 18 game schedule shouldn't be detrimental to the game.

:2cents:

 
There's nothing inherently illogical in an employee of a company making a salary greater than the profits of the company as a whole. If you're the owner of said company, you might not like it if it happens, but the market value of an employee just might really be greater than your market value as an owner.

 
A peasant paid his taxes for protection. He grew his food and gave a part of it as forced gratitude. Those that taxed their subjects into oblivion didn't last long. There is a big difference between producing something and keeping/selling it and producing something and letting someone else sell it for profit.

The developed world makes more and hence pays more for something. A person making a dollar a day is not paying 5 dollars for a loaf of bread. It is same reason you can take what you have now and go to the Phillipines and be etremely rich. Compare America to a developed nation--America is not a third world country. American Laborers are treated basically the step up from nothing. Look up German or French workers rights. You will be shocked.

I'll pay you 4 mil to do X. I'll watch and count the 8 mil I made off of you in your face. Let's see how long you think it's fair

 
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A peasant paid his taxes for protection. He grew his food and gave a part of it as forced gratitude. Those that taxed their subjects into oblivion didn't last long. There is a big difference between producing something and keeping/selling it and producing something and letting someone else sell it for profit. The developed world makes more and hence pays more for something. A person making a dollar a day is not paying 5 dollars for a loaf of bread. It is same reason you can take what you have now and go to the Phillipines and be etremely rich. Compare America to a developed nation--America is not a third world country. American Laborers are treated basically the step up from nothing. Look up German or French workers rights. You will be shocked.I'll pay you 4 mil to do X. I'll watch and count the 8 mil I made off of you in your face. Let's see how long you think it's fair
As long as your company allows me to make $4 mil, I'll take it. The other option is to create my own company.
 
I say it's better for everyone to leave things as is -- just make sure the starters play all four quarters of ALL games.

 

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