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I dont think he has signed any contract yet, he's a RFA.Why can't Jackson return to the Chargers after he serves his suspension and play football? Won't Jackson be the one in breach of contract?Article in the USA Today reads Jackson say's what Chargers are doing seems unethical and that he just wants to play football.Good for Smith, about time somebody plays hardball with these prima donnas. "I just want to play football" ; really........
OK, my bad. I thought he was in his final year.I dont think he has signed any contract yet, he's a RFA.Why can't Jackson return to the Chargers after he serves his suspension and play football? Won't Jackson be the one in breach of contract?Article in the USA Today reads Jackson say's what Chargers are doing seems unethical and that he just wants to play football.
AJ isnt a big player in Free agency anyway. name the last big time free agent they signed.......wait for it............ exactly.AJ is very bull headed and does things his way. However I think in the McNeil and Vjax scenario the owner needs to take some of the blame, he is being very cheap before the lockout. They used the rules to their advantage this year.
Let's discuss the mythical lockout. If you look at the payroll for this year, teams can spend whatever but I think they receive at least $125 million and maybe a lot more in revenue right now. Certainly enough to cover pay roll. But you look and you'll find at least half the league is well under that numbers. San Diego really isn't that far off at about $111 million but teams like New England and Baltimore are operating almost $25 million under that $115 million from a year ago...where is that money going? (rhetorical question)So what's gonna happen is if they can't get the players to agree to new terms they won't lock them out because the owners are making too much money. They're not going to stop that money flow you can be sure of it. So they'll just extend the terms they have now for another year while they continue to negotiate. But the lockout is a joke, it will never happen the way so many of these teams are set up. Oakland is spending the most if you want to know...$152+ million, Dallas is 2nd with $146 million, that's $300 million well spent
Obviously the Rams GM was talking about and 2nd and 4th round pick if he gets signed to a multi year deal isn't unreasonable. NO TEAM is going to pony up two draft picks to rent a guy for 10 games. The vikes only considered it because its Favre's last hoorah.
Should I also name the last time the Chargers won something other than the AFC west?AJ's success looks to be more a product of the roster that was handed to him vs what he added to it.
He's been the GM for along time, Since 2003 i believe. He drafted both Vjax and McNeil and Rivers and Merriman and Turner. Unfortunately its looks like he will lose most them as well.
Agree about Marty Schottenheimer, but keeping Brees would've required clairvoyance. At one time, wasn't Brees something like 70% likely NOT to be able to ever play again?
You and many others continue to be completely wrong about a number of things related to the Chargers. It's been pointed out to you specifically numerous times, and you refuse to accept the facts. In retrospect, Smith did the right thing with Brees, and the Chargers have been better off without Marty. I don't think those points are really debatable. But for whatever reason, people really don't like Smith, so they will continue piling on him by citing numerous invalid arguments, just as they always have. This year is no different than any other.
How many rings does Drew Brees have? I am one of the biggest Rivers fans thanks to folks like you over the years, the guy is truly coming into his own and I like the in game fighting he does with his team, someone's got to lay into them cause Norv certainly won't. All SD fans in here think AJ is justified for everything he has ever done and I maintain that MT is on the payroll over there in San Diego. AJ might be right in the world of public opinion but he is going to lose a lot of players he drafted because they hate him now. Fans might like to get behind him and say "Yeah stick it to them" but the players ar enot going ot put up with forever and the team is starting to become a place that players want to leave not join. But I like watching them play, their offense is exciting and Air Coryell is back.
A.J. Smith inherited a roster with these quality players
rew BreesLadainian TomlinsonLorenzo NealJamal WilliamsDonnie EdwardsQuentin JammerThat's about it.A.J. Smith drafted these players, among others, from 2004 forward:Eli ManningIgor OlshanskyNate KaedingNick HardwickShaun PhillipsDave BallMichael TurnerShane OliveaShawn MerrimanLuis CastilloVincent JacksonDarren SprolesAntonio CromartieMarcus McNeillCharlie WhitehurstJeromey ClaryCraig DavisEric WeddleLegedu NaaneeBrandon SilerAntoine CasonJacob HesterLarry EnglishLouis VasquezRyan MathewsDonald ButlerCam ThomasA.J. Smith acquired/signed these players, among others, since he took over:Antonio GatesKassim OsgoodWes WelkerKris DielmanGreg CamarilloSteve FoleyKeenan McCardellPhilip RiversMalcom FloydChris ChambersBilly VolekBrandon ManumaleunaMike GoffMike TolbertBrandyn DombrowskiRandy McMichaelPatrick CraytonIn the three seasons prior to Smith taking over, the team was 14-34. The team had not made the playoffs or had a winning record for 7 seasons prior to him taking over.A.J. Smith took over the Chargers right after the draft in 2003, and the team went 4-12 that season. Since that season, they are 68-30, and they have had winning records and made the playoffs in 5 of 6 full seasons.You couldn't be more wrong.
That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Brees was hurt, required a huge contract, and the Chargers knew what they had in Rivers. It was an easy decision to let Brees walk. If the situation was different, like if he was healthy, or if they wouldn't have had to pay him so much to keep him, or if they could have traded Rivers without a massive cap hit, maybe they would have chosen to keep Brees. But none of those things were true.I like Brees. I'm happy he got a ring. That doesn't change the situation that existed when he left San Diego.This is exactly what people always do in judging Smith. They ignore some or all of the relevant facts.
It sure seemed to me that Brees had turned the corner with is play before the injury. And we all know that QB play is critical to winning and having a chance at the SB. But AJ drafted Rivers and wanted him to be the QB in spite of what the coach wanted. So from this perspective, the team had to take a step back to get Rivers up to speed. He did it a great job and is a great QB, but the team lost their momentum a bit waiting for Rivers to become what he is now. Meanwhile, we all know what happened to Brees. I think this and the Marty issue is the most compelling argument about AJ's ego. IMO-they are much furhter ahead with them than without. Not knocking Rivers, he proven to be very good.
I'm sure I could be more wrong, but in this case I'm not...Gates was an undrafted FA he signed. Now I will give him credit for signing the guy, but lets be honest, no one expected him to be this good.A.J. Smith inherited a roster with these quality players
Ladainian Tomlinson - Pro bowler, Franchise RB, HOF lock
Lorenzo Neal - Pro bowler, could be the best blocking FB EVER, potential HOF
Jamal Williams - Pro bowl DT
Donnie Edwards - Pro bowl LB
Quentin Jammer - Solid CB, top 5 pick
That's about it.
You couldn't be more wrong.
I think the main thing people are point at is that the Chargers didn't see what they had in Brees. They drafted Manning before Brees' injury. They only gave Brees 3 years in the NFL before they made the call to move on.
Pretty bizarre logic to say Smith was handed 6 Pro Bowlers and include Gates on that list... Smith signed Gates.I'm sure I could be more wrong, but in this case I'm not...Gates was an undrafted FA he signed. Now I will give him credit for signing the guy, but lets be honest, no one expected him to be this good.A.J. Smith inherited a roster with these quality players
Ladainian Tomlinson - Pro bowler, Franchise RB, HOF lock
Lorenzo Neal - Pro bowler, could be the best blocking FB EVER, potential HOF
Jamal Williams - Pro bowl DT
Donnie Edwards - Pro bowl LB
Quentin Jammer - Solid CB, top 5 pick
That's about it.
You couldn't be more wrong.
So adding Gates to the list, in his first year as the Chargers GM, he was handed 6 pro bowl caliber players and 4 potental HOFers. So lets not act like he built this team from the ground up...
And Donnie Edwards made one Pro Bowl in his career, in 2002. He was a solid player during Smith's tenure, nothing more.
Brees played for the Chargers for 5 seasons, and he was the primary starting QB in 4 of them. In the first 2 of those, he played poorly, which led Smith to draft Eli and trade him for Rivers. Then Brees had 2 great seasons. But he had a major injury when he became a UFA, and would have commanded a very large contract to resign... meanwhile, the Chargers had another excellent, highly paid QB on their team. It was a nobrainer. It was right then, and it has proven to be right since then. It continues to surprise me that people don't understand this situation.
Who should they have drafted instead? They ended up with the best player in the draft.
The Chargers never had the opportunity to trade Brees. Nobody else wanted him bad enough to trade anything. The Saints are the only team that would offer him anything.
Fixed.
Josh Cribbs- 2 time pro bowlerI'm sure I could be more wrong, but in this case I'm not...Gates was an undrafted FA he signed. Now I will give him credit for signing the guy, but lets be honest, no one expected him to be this good.A.J. Smith inherited a roster with these quality players
Ladainian Tomlinson - Pro bowler, Franchise RB, HOF lock
Lorenzo Neal - Pro bowler, could be the best blocking FB EVER, potential HOF
Jamal Williams - Pro bowl DT
Donnie Edwards - Pro bowl LB
Quentin Jammer - Solid CB, top 5 pick
That's about it.
You couldn't be more wrong.
So adding Gates to the list, in his first year as the Chargers GM, he was handed 6 pro bowl caliber players and 4 potental HOFers. So lets not act like he built this team from the ground up...
Sure, and Roman Oben as well. But those other guys weren't the point... the point was that Smith felt compelled to obtain another QB because Brees had played so poorly in his first 3 seasons with the Chargers (and first 2 as their primary starter). Heck, Brees was substantially outplayed by 41 year old backup QB Doug Flutie in 2003, the season before they got Rivers.
If you're right about this, Vincent Jackson will be a restricted free agent again and the Chargers will likely give him the first- and third-round tender again for $3.3 million.Then the interesting question is: will Jackson sign that tender next year before June 15 (when it would go down to $583,000), or would he sit out again for a second consecutive season?Let's discuss the mythical lockout. If you look at the payroll for this year, teams can spend whatever but I think they receive at least $125 million and maybe a lot more in revenue right now. Certainly enough to cover pay roll. But you look and you'll find at least half the league is well under that numbers. San Diego really isn't that far off at about $111 million but teams like New England and Baltimore are operating almost $25 million under that $115 million from a year ago...where is that money going? (rhetorical question)So what's gonna happen is if they can't get the players to agree to new terms they won't lock them out because the owners are making too much money. They're not going to stop that money flow you can be sure of it. So they'll just extend the terms they have now for another year while they continue to negotiate. But the lockout is a joke, it will never happen the way so many of these teams are set up. Oakland is spending the most if you want to know...$152+ million, Dallas is 2nd with $146 million, that's $300 million well spent
I had seen many reports in the weeks leading up to this that seemed to suggest that Jackson would just sit this year out and be an unrestricted free agent next year but doesn't he have to report for the six games this year in order to become an UFA under the current collective bargaining agreement? Obviously the bargaining agreement could change this but if it is just extended as MOP's post suggests then it could be a reality.If you're right about this, Vincent Jackson will be a restricted free agent again and the Chargers will likely give him the first- and third-round tender again for $3.3 million.Then the interesting question is: will Jackson sign that tender next year before June 15 (when it would go down to $583,000), or would he sit out again for a second consecutive season?Let's discuss the mythical lockout. If you look at the payroll for this year, teams can spend whatever but I think they receive at least $125 million and maybe a lot more in revenue right now. Certainly enough to cover pay roll. But you look and you'll find at least half the league is well under that numbers. San Diego really isn't that far off at about $111 million but teams like New England and Baltimore are operating almost $25 million under that $115 million from a year ago...where is that money going? (rhetorical question)So what's gonna happen is if they can't get the players to agree to new terms they won't lock them out because the owners are making too much money. They're not going to stop that money flow you can be sure of it. So they'll just extend the terms they have now for another year while they continue to negotiate. But the lockout is a joke, it will never happen the way so many of these teams are set up. Oakland is spending the most if you want to know...$152+ million, Dallas is 2nd with $146 million, that's $300 million well spent
He doesn't need six games. He just needs to sign by Nov 16 (the last day that players are allowed to sign), which would make him eligible to play in three games. He wouldn't get an accrued season that way, but he doesn't need one since he already has five. What he does need to do, under the current CBA, is avoid sitting out the whole year. The current CBA says that a restricted free agent can never become an unrestricted free agent by sitting out the whole season. If there is no new CBA next year, and no lockout, the terms of the current CBA would still apply.I had seen many reports in the weeks leading up to this that seemed to suggest that Jackson would just sit this year out and be an unrestricted free agent next year but doesn't he have to report for the six games this year in order to become an UFA under the current collective bargaining agreement? Obviously the bargaining agreement could change this but if it is just extended as MOP's post suggests then it could be a reality.If you're right about this, Vincent Jackson will be a restricted free agent again and the Chargers will likely give him the first- and third-round tender again for $3.3 million.Then the interesting question is: will Jackson sign that tender next year before June 15 (when it would go down to $583,000), or would he sit out again for a second consecutive season?Let's discuss the mythical lockout. If you look at the payroll for this year, teams can spend whatever but I think they receive at least $125 million and maybe a lot more in revenue right now. Certainly enough to cover pay roll. But you look and you'll find at least half the league is well under that numbers. San Diego really isn't that far off at about $111 million but teams like New England and Baltimore are operating almost $25 million under that $115 million from a year ago...where is that money going? (rhetorical question)
So what's gonna happen is if they can't get the players to agree to new terms they won't lock them out because the owners are making too much money. They're not going to stop that money flow you can be sure of it. So they'll just extend the terms they have now for another year while they continue to negotiate. But the lockout is a joke, it will never happen the way so many of these teams are set up. Oakland is spending the most if you want to know...$152+ million, Dallas is 2nd with $146 million, that's $300 million well spent
How is his production in year 4+5 darn near identical to marshall's? First of all Marshall is younger and has only played 4 seasons (meaning he is already outproducing Vjax in less time), but thats not the point. Here is:
Get smarter friendsHTH
Basically all the efficiency stats: catch rate, yards per catch, yards per target, touchdowns per catch, etc.
I supplied 3 years running stats? Not sure of the problem on that one.
gross stats unfortunately are the way things are measured in terms of productivity and getting paid. It is unfortunate, but the Chargers arent eaxactly Billy Beane.
They got compensation for Brees and Turner. The rest of your posts have been similarly uninformed/flat out wrong.
He drafted English last year and Cam Thomas this year for the DL. He drafted OT Jeromey Clary in 2006, the same year he drafted McNeill. He added rookie OT Brandyn Dombrowski last year. These players are all young enough that it is too early to judge them IMO. I agree that both lines need improving, and I'm hopeful these players will provide at least some of that needed improvement.YouthofToday said:
McNeill really has not played well since 2006. Most Chargers fans are aware of this. Heck, he was part of the OL last year that your friend just finished saying was a primary reason the Chargers couldn't run the ball last season.Two games is a small sample size, of course, but so far this season, Football Outsiders ranks the Chargers OL as 12th in run blocking and 11th in pass blocking and its DL as 12th in run defense. Those are substantial improvements over last season if they hold up. The pass rush is still pretty weak, though.YouthofToday said:
The Chargers got third-rounders for Brees and Turner.At DE, Cesaire, Boone, and Johnson are all better than Olshansky (which admittedly isn't saying much). At NT, Garay is a stud. Cam Thomas has potential as well.
He replaced the NT this year, the DE last year, and the FB in 2008. We'll see if those replacements work out. So far Tolbert looks solid, and the DL looks good so far this year, albeit in a small sample size.Now, let's get this straight. You were screaming that Brees was a good QB before the 2004 draft? After he had just posted a 67.5 QB rating and a 2-9 record as the Chargers' primary starting QB in 2003? I don't believe you.
I'd say that English is a potential replacement for Merriman. Vaughn Martin would be last year's draft pick who will play DE (although it's a crowded position right now so I don't know if/when he'll break into the lineup).
Dombrowski has played great at LT so far this year. If McNeill came back tomorrow, I'm not sure what they'd do with him. They'd probably move Clary to the bench, but I'm not sure whether they'd move Dombrowski to RT or McNeill. They might want to leave Dombrowski where he is, where he's worked all off-season (even though McNeill seems a better fit at LT than RT). I don't know. But there hasn't been a drop-off in the play at LT this season.
Compensatory picks
They were awarded those 4th rounders. AJ didn't get them himself.
Doesn't matter. It's the truth.
Ah, so you weren't really screaming that Brees was great like you said you were. That's what I thought.By the way, are you aware that GMs don't operate with crystal balls?
Yeah, I had already gone back and reworded that, though still thinking of him as a DE vice LB. PFR lists him as a DE.
The problem is that the original argument was for the last two years and you supplied that last three years solely because it makes your argument look better. Over the last two years:Marshall:howardroark said:I supplied 3 years running stats? Not sure of the problem on that one.craxie said:howardroark said:
Compensatory picksDoesn't matter. It's the truth.
Is this going to spawn into a PPR vs Standard scoring system argument?The problem is that the original argument was for the last two years and you supplied that last three years solely because it makes your argument look better. Over the last two years:Marshall:howardroark said:I supplied 3 years running stats? Not sure of the problem on that one.craxie said:howardroark said:
205 Receptions
2385 Yards
16 TDs
79.50 YPG
Jackson:
127 Receptions
2265 Yards
16 TDs
73.06 YPG
So... Jackson was able to replicate Marshall's yardage and touchdown numbers with 80 less receptions. That's why he deserves to get paid.
Why not - this thread has already devolved to a ridiculous level anyway. Why is JB letting this one continue? I don't see much useful football discussion.Is this going to spawn into a PPR vs Standard scoring system argument?The problem is that the original argument was for the last two years and you supplied that last three years solely because it makes your argument look better. Over the last two years:Marshall:howardroark said:I supplied 3 years running stats? Not sure of the problem on that one.craxie said:howardroark said:
205 Receptions
2385 Yards
16 TDs
79.50 YPG
Jackson:
127 Receptions
2265 Yards
16 TDs
73.06 YPG
So... Jackson was able to replicate Marshall's yardage and touchdown numbers with 80 less receptions. That's why he deserves to get paid.
