Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Anybody feel guilty about rostering Mike Vick? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter LawFitz
- Start date
But what if you take pleasure in killing for food?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
purestrength
Footballguy
I truly think some of you shmucks would start Vick on your FF team if he killed your own parents and spent only two years in prison for it.
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
Did my parents have it coming, in this scenario, or did he just kill them for pure psychopathic glee?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I didn't say nobodies a bad person. In fact I said quite the opposite. We are ALL bad people (well most of us anyway) in some way or another. Some more than others, but deep down you know the bad things you've done at your worst moments. Especially when yo were a 'kid'. But most don't have the media attention and exposure of a guy like Vick. Now imagine when you were your wildest and craziest someone threw 100 million at you. I'm not condoning the behavior, but I understand. Leonard Little and Stallworth have KILLED people and not only served less time, but get 1% of the public scorn.
what are his good qualities -- he scored you fantasy points?
I hope nobody begrudges ben for raping college girls then goes out fishing on the weekend ---- hypocrites!!!
And his good qualities would be his large amount of charitable involvements, his taking care of those he grew up with (which in many ways led to his fall from grace). He could have walked from his punishment and just done the 'i served my time bit', Instead he has been extremely active with PETA and animal rescue groups in Philadelphia. I mean he served his time, has changed his behavior (was at a event where things started going bad and he left when the trouble was brewing) and he seems to have learned the kind of life lessons that you think about when you sit in jail for a year. If you TRULY believe in your christian ideal of redemption, then for you to JUDGE him still so vehemently years after the fact, and after having done positive things, then you arekind of ignoring that 'turn the other cheek/hate the sin love the sinner thing aren't you?
how many are you rostering ___________ for moral reasons have there been in the history of this board?
And yes. To many people there is very little difference in the moral wrongness of hunting animals/fishing (whether for fish, whales, dolphins, seals etc) and dog fighting.
dude, you are hilarious --- I'm starting to think every one of your posts is nothing more than fishing, which I guess makes you the equivalent of a rapist.and wtf are you talking about with all that christian nonsense??
I have no idea why you think leonard little and stallworth have something to do with vick, somehow exonerate vick in any way, excuse vick, or are in any way connected to vick, but if it makes you feel any better I don't have either on my team.
I DO eat meat, though OMG!!
I smell a ton of rationalization in this thread, and I don't know if maybe you don't feel you're a very good person, maybe had some childhood problems, or if you said you're a criminal defense attorney maybe there's the inevitable guilt that would come from getting scumbags put back out on the street --- but whatever it is, people will usually excuse their poor behavior, lack of good judgment or conscience, immaturity, etc, by trying to convince themselves that 'everybody does it'.
if you steal you will convince yourself that everybody steals, so you aren't any worse than anybody else.
whatever helps you sleep at night.
purestrength
Footballguy
For hypothetical purposes, let's assume he did it for sh*ts and giggles.
thehornet
Footballguy
killing humans and killing dogs is CLEARLY very similar.
Last edited by a moderator:
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
Then I don't think I'd draft him.
purestrength
Footballguy
Thank you for at least having half a conscience.
blake
Footballguy
one of the better commercials that i can remember.
are you serious? :(
you're kind of an idiot.
blake
Footballguy
:(Sorry, full with a waiting list.
blake
Footballguy
:(
Me Neither, I definitely wouldn't draft him. Now if he was on the waiver wire before the championship game in a league that allows waiver pickups in the playoffs, and he had a better matchup than the guy already on my roster, and there was more than $236.81 on the line, THAT would be a different story.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Now imagine he runs a 4.1 40
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
, lol. some much hollier than thou stuff. You are wrong, and you know it. Everyone has some bad #### in their past, some more than others admittedly. Just today Atlanta's prodigal son The Bishop Eddie Long is being sued by three men for rape/sexual harrassment charges. I'll bet before that most everyone woulda said that gau could never do that. same with swaggart, and craig, and that focus on the family guy, and the president,and the head of the local pta etc. Trust me. Skeletons have closets, and most peoples are a lot more filled with #### (yours too) than most of us would ever freely admit.But then again you all bench 400 and and married to HB 9.5's...
dude, you are hilarious --- I'm starting to think every one of your posts is nothing more than fishing, which I guess makes you the equivalent of a rapist.and wtf are you talking about with all that christian nonsense??I have no idea why you think leonard little and stallworth have something to do with vick, somehow exonerate vick in any way, excuse vick, or are in any way connected to vick, but if it makes you feel any better I don't have either on my team.
I DO eat meat, though OMG!! I smell a ton of rationalization in this thread, and I don't know if maybe you don't feel you're a very good person, maybe had some childhood problems, or if you said you're a criminal defense attorney maybe there's the inevitable guilt that would come from getting scumbags put back out on the street --- but whatever it is, people will usually excuse their poor behavior, lack of good judgment or conscience, immaturity, etc, by trying to convince themselves that 'everybody does it'.if you steal you will convince yourself that everybody steals, so you aren't any worse than anybody else.whatever helps you sleep at night.
footballnerd
Footballguy
How is rostering Vick being supportive of his character? Does he get a cut of your winnings? Does he give a crap if you roster him? There is no connection between rostering Vick and Vick himself except in your own cracked out minds.
radballs
Footballguy
radballs
Footballguy
I agree with a some here. But, I look at it the other way. I see a lot of folks standing on some kind of moral high ground denigrating others that would or have drafted him or picked him up via waivers. I also believe there are still a lot of these bogus "moral high grounders" that actually tried to acquire him but failed and now they justify it by saying that they feel better about themselves because they don't have "that" kind of player on their team. It's just like Monday morning quarterbacking and fair weather fans. I have much less patience and respect for these kinds of people than Michael Vick.Neil Beaufort Zod said:
I'm sure I'm not the first one to post something like this and I didn't really have time to read all of the posts but people can change. Michael Vick was a kid from the south that was probably around dog fighting since he was a kid in high school that was given millions of dollars. Vick wasn't mature, he wasn't a man, he was a kid with a deadly weapon, MONEY. Sure, what he did wasn't close to a gray area, it was downright disgusting but I truly believe that he realizes that now. Sometimes it really does take rock bottom to not take certain things for granted. I'm sure he was treated like a king since he was fifteen based on his athleticism alone, he probably didn't take one test in college. He thought he was untouchable, thought he was the king of the world.. as most of us do when we're 22-23 and piss poor... but in his case, he wasn't. I'm actually probably one of the few but I'm rallying around this guy and really pulling for him. I myself own four dogs, two of them being Pits and the two others are American Bulldogs (feeding time is not fun). Just to be clear, I don't do anything close to aggressive things with my pets, no tire swings, ropes, nothing.. I didn't want my family pets to have the ability to lock their jaws (they do by nature but unless it's trained, they don't possess that ability without being taught). I love my dogs very much and they sleep on my bed, couch, etc. Just be to clear of where I stand when it comes to the treatment of animals, but back to Vick... In a nutshell, he made a mistake... as many of us do, I'm 99.9% that majority of posters here aren't up for Sainthood. As long as he understands that what he did was disgusting and vile and he chooses to put that behind him, I'll support him. Michael Vick has grown up before our eyes. I'm not saying that he's the best role model for young athletes/children but he's a great role model for kid's that are following in his footsteps right now. Maybe looking at his story, they realize that maybe the hard work and dedication does pay off. Like they say, sinners make the best saints. As of right now, Mike Vick has my vote... but fool me twice, shame on me.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
I don't really buy that. I've seen people say they wouldn't do it...but I haven't seen anyone say you're a jerk if you feel differently. Maybe you FEEL like people are trying to take the moral high ground, but I've only seen people say what THEY would do...not what YOU should do. Personally, I think fair weather fans are the only intelligent fans, so I'm going to disagree with that as well. I think fans who support their team no matter how poorly the owner runs it are fools. It's like "supporting" a restaurant with your money every weekend even though you hate the food. The players aren't that loyal to the team-- only the ignoramuses in the stands who watch losing season after losing season and are content with it are that loyal. They deserve to have someone smarter take their money. But now I'm taking a moral high ground, so I'll shut up about that and get back to Vick. I have no problem having him on my team because it doesn't help or hurt him either way. If his popularity in fantasy football was somehow tied to his income I wouldn't do it. But I don't fault others who feel differently, and I haven't seen anyone else do that.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
We all make mistakes, but what he didn't wasn't a mistake. He didn't accidentally kill dogs. He did it on purpose. You can blame his age, his upbringing, or whatever. You can't wake up and say "Oh, I thought killing dogs was cool but I guess I can see where it might be wrong." He either knew it was wrong or he had no regard for their lives and didn't care. They weren't killed for food or clothing. They were killed for losing a brutal, painful fight.Yes, we all have skeletons in our closets. But if your closet includes brutally killing dogs for sport, there's something wrong with you. And several months in prison and a nice game against the Lions isn't going to change that. That being said, fantasy football is about YOUR team and winning. Do what you have to do (within the rules) to win. If the game is less fun by having Vick on your team...don't take him.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
He said he didn't think he'd draft them. Depends on how far they fell in the draft and how good they are in the red zone.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
Because...all football players are psychopaths?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Ultimately fantasy football is about having fun as much as winning. So if you have some kind of aversion or disdain for any player, to the point that having him on your roster will impair your ability to enjoy the hobby, then by all means avoid him. I know guys who try to horde players from their favorite teams even though they know it might not give them the best chance to win, and I'm sure we all know folks who avoid players from their rivals even if those players are absolute studs. It's not OPTIMAL if your goal is winning. But it's not WRONG either since ultimately it's your hobby, your team, and your hard earned time and money -- it's no one else's.
All that said, I will concur with others who point out that taking the moral high ground against a player is a tough thing to understand. The NFL is full of people you wouldn't want dating your daughter, or running your business, or watching your kids. Every locker room has those kinds of guys. And every locker room also has amazingly great, moral and hard working people, too. And the truth is we don't even really know who is who. We THINK we know. But I guarantee you that half the guys most fans would cite as "great guys" are likely morally corrupt human beings behind the scenes, and a handful of guys we see as jerks or prima donnas or bad with the media are in fact morally upstanding humanitarians.
Trying to imbue character traits into those athletes who wear your team's jersey is a tough road to travel.
All that said, I will concur with others who point out that taking the moral high ground against a player is a tough thing to understand. The NFL is full of people you wouldn't want dating your daughter, or running your business, or watching your kids. Every locker room has those kinds of guys. And every locker room also has amazingly great, moral and hard working people, too. And the truth is we don't even really know who is who. We THINK we know. But I guarantee you that half the guys most fans would cite as "great guys" are likely morally corrupt human beings behind the scenes, and a handful of guys we see as jerks or prima donnas or bad with the media are in fact morally upstanding humanitarians.
Trying to imbue character traits into those athletes who wear your team's jersey is a tough road to travel.
Last edited by a moderator:
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Fantasy football is just that. A fantasy. You don't own the player. You don't even have to root for the player. You are playing a game of skill/luck of choosing and predicting which individual players perform on Sunday. There shouldn't bet any emotional ties to these players one way or the other. You may find that in real life, your one occurance of meeting a good guy like Peyton Manning, that he was in a bad mood that day and brushed you off. Would you then characterize him to be a jerk? It's sometimes difficult to separate the man from the sport, and the sport from the hobby.I own the stats that belong to Michael Vick, not his morals, not his politcal beliefs, not his crew/possie. That's all I have invested in him. And that makes it easy to own him.
Last edited by a moderator:
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
We're not talking about a guy who is hated because he's known to cheat on his lady friends, or because he's a little too cavalier with his expenditures, or because he's irresponsible.We're talking about a guy who hanged living animals and laughed about it. This doesn't make him a jerk. It makes him ####### evil. We're not trying to, or forced to, imbue character traits, here. Vick admitted these things.I think some of us are making a distinction between knowing that we can never really know these guys on the one hand, and therefore accepting that we have a roster that almost certainly contains some less-than-savory characters...versus on the other hand rostering a sick, demented twist who we know beyond a doubt kills out of sheer perverse joy.I get it if you're comfortable ignoring that distinction. But I don't get it if you honestly claim you can't understand why others aren't.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
There is no moral yardstick that works for all people. If you think that cheating on your wife is somehow less evil than killing a dog, I personally would disagree with you. There are cultural differences that mark our moral boundaries.
For example, growing up I was taken as a small child to see the bull fights, and cheer for the cruel goring of defenseless animals. Later, my dad took me to see #### fights with razors that he gambled on. I didn’t agree with it then, and I don’t agree with it now, but if you are exposed these types of rituals, they almost seem accepted or at least can be easily ignored as part of the “old culture”.
What you think is ####### evil, is for some others a common sin.
For example, growing up I was taken as a small child to see the bull fights, and cheer for the cruel goring of defenseless animals. Later, my dad took me to see #### fights with razors that he gambled on. I didn’t agree with it then, and I don’t agree with it now, but if you are exposed these types of rituals, they almost seem accepted or at least can be easily ignored as part of the “old culture”.
What you think is ####### evil, is for some others a common sin.
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
Super. And if you think cheating on your wife is evil, and I don't mean morally wrong, but literally so inconceivably, grotesquely evil that somebody who does it is beyond redemption, and is vermin fit only for disgust and rejection, then I'd call you weak-spined and hypocritical if you played a game where you endorsed a person guilty of that "sin."Why would you think otherwise of somebody who thought that Vick was such a person for the "sins" he committed?I get that it's not a black and white world. But If we don't live honestly and consistently by our own shades of gray, then we have no moral compass at all.
Brady Gaga
Footballguy
Let's not forget that when faced with a lie detector test, Vick changed his story and ADMITTED to personally killing dogs by methonds including hanging, electrocuting, shooting, drowning (by holding their heads down in a bucket of water) and by slamming them to the ground (and of course by fighting them to the death). Also know that court records show that he was also "adopting" strays from the local pound and using them for tune up fights.
Win or lose - I wouldn't want that piece of garbage on my team but to each his own...
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
Also know that court records show that he was also "adopting" strays from the local pound and using them for tune up fights.
Win or lose - I wouldn't want that piece of garbage on my team but to each his own...
For the record, I'm not on board with anybody saying, quite sweepingly, that Vick is scum, and therefore anybody who rosters him is objectively scum as well. I'm merely saying I won't.By the same token, I don't accept anybody telling me, quite sweepingly, that ethical concerns have no place here, and that I am thus objectively in the wrong for casting him aside.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I'm certainly not going to jump into this fight. I couldn't have been more direct with how I feel here. If ANYONE wants to not roster someone for ANY reason, more power to them. And if in this particular case Vick's obvious personal flaws are that reason, kudos. But I just think it's a naive notion to EVER let the perception of an athletes off-the-field behavior/tendencies/inclinations shape whether you root for them, particularly in a team sport. We don't know these people. I thought more folks would finally get that after the Tiger Woods debacle, but apparently people still mistakenly associate being a great player with being a good person. They're not remotely correlated.
Tillmanisahero
Footballguy
Pretty sure Gandhi wouldn't roster Vick either. Bottom line....Vick is a puke bag and I wouldn't want to have anything do with his name, his stats or anything else no matter how far removed. IMHO winning isn't everything to me, I have to have fun pulling for my guys to score. Everytime I see the Eagles now I just think of the twisted S% Vick did. Unlike many of you Vick fans, I have worked with Pit Bull rescues and volunteered with shelters. I have responded to the aftermath of a Dog Fight Night, it is something that get burned in your memory. The smells, the sounds and the faces of the dogs killed and tortured for "losing". So yes, if you roster Vick you are cooler, smarter, more logical and more shark but I wouldn't want that dirty feeling when I checked my box score. Their are other sleepers and smart waiver moves to be made that I'll use to over come the Vick Factor. I have won my league several times and I have always been able to avoid Vick and his ilk.
VaTerp
Footballguy
Pretty sure you've ENTIRELY missed the point.Pretty sure Gandhi wouldn't roster Vick either. Bottom line....Vick is a puke bag and I wouldn't want to have anything do with his name, his stats or anything else no matter how far removed. IMHO winning isn't everything to me, I have to have fun pulling for my guys to score. Everytime I see the Eagles now I just think of the twisted S% Vick did. Unlike many of you Vick fans, I have worked with Pit Bull rescues and volunteered with shelters. I have responded to the aftermath of a Dog Fight Night, it is something that get burned in your memory. The smells, the sounds and the faces of the dogs killed and tortured for "losing". So yes, if you roster Vick you are cooler, smarter, more logical and more shark but I wouldn't want that dirty feeling when I checked my box score. Their are other sleepers and smart waiver moves to be made that I'll use to over come the Vick Factor. I have won my league several times and I have always been able to avoid Vick and his ilk.
purestrength
Footballguy
And I'm pretty sure Tillmanisahero made one of the best points in this thread.Pretty sure you've ENTIRELY missed the point.Pretty sure Gandhi wouldn't roster Vick either. Bottom line....Vick is a puke bag and I wouldn't want to have anything do with his name, his stats or anything else no matter how far removed. IMHO winning isn't everything to me, I have to have fun pulling for my guys to score. Everytime I see the Eagles now I just think of the twisted S% Vick did. Unlike many of you Vick fans, I have worked with Pit Bull rescues and volunteered with shelters. I have responded to the aftermath of a Dog Fight Night, it is something that get burned in your memory. The smells, the sounds and the faces of the dogs killed and tortured for "losing". So yes, if you roster Vick you are cooler, smarter, more logical and more shark but I wouldn't want that dirty feeling when I checked my box score. Their are other sleepers and smart waiver moves to be made that I'll use to over come the Vick Factor. I have won my league several times and I have always been able to avoid Vick and his ilk.
Who is on your list of players included in Vick's ilk? You don't have any clue as to the players on your fantasy teams moral behavior but somehow feel your fantasy title was more "honorable" because you dont have Vick or other players you see as less than virtuous. Would you roster Ben Roethlisberger? Matt Forte?
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
We don't have a clue as to Vick's moral behavior?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
It's best not to assume that your moral compass is an absolute. It's fair to say it is for you, but not necessarily for others.As for the cheating on spouse slant....Sorry, but I cannot compare a dead dog to a dead marriage. I'm sorry, I just cant. My wife and my family are the most important thing to me. Cheating on my wife means breaking a vow of trust and could potentially lead to a bitter divorce, most of my net worth, and the loss of my children. That is a really evil sin if you ask me. Let’s put some context here. If you drove past a dead dog on the highway, you’d probably think that it was sad, but the next thing you’d wonder is when the state troopers call out for it be picked up and sent to the tallow yard. It’s a dog, not a human being!If you feel dirty for having Vick on your team, fine then....just leave him to others. That’s your prerogative. I won’t try to sell you on Vick. But don’t go and try and make others feel guilty for playing an innocent game of fantasy football that relies on his stats on Sunday. Whatever the guy did, he paid for. I don’t think Vick owners should have to carry his cross for having them on their team.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
What that hurting yourself so that you can feel better about how morally superior you are than other people is a good idea?And I'm pretty sure Tillmanisahero made one of the best points in this thread.Pretty sure you've ENTIRELY missed the point.Pretty sure Gandhi wouldn't roster Vick either. Bottom line....Vick is a puke bag and I wouldn't want to have anything do with his name, his stats or anything else no matter how far removed. IMHO winning isn't everything to me, I have to have fun pulling for my guys to score. Everytime I see the Eagles now I just think of the twisted S% Vick did. Unlike many of you Vick fans, I have worked with Pit Bull rescues and volunteered with shelters. I have responded to the aftermath of a Dog Fight Night, it is something that get burned in your memory. The smells, the sounds and the faces of the dogs killed and tortured for "losing". So yes, if you roster Vick you are cooler, smarter, more logical and more shark but I wouldn't want that dirty feeling when I checked my box score. Their are other sleepers and smart waiver moves to be made that I'll use to over come the Vick Factor. I have won my league several times and I have always been able to avoid Vick and his ilk.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
On second thought you guys should draft Vick and then BENCH him. Then send him an email about it. THAT'LL SHOW HIM!
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
Pretty sue I said the exact opposite.
I didn't ask you. But I think it's telling that you felt the need to expound all the same. Since you feel it truly is evil enough to pontificate on, I'll reiterate: you are weak-spined and hypocritical IF (note the conditional, here) you tacitly or actively endorse players or people who are guilty of that "sin."
It's best not to assume your moral compass is an absolute.
That's precisely what I said I was going to do. It came up in the first place because somebody specifically asked in the OP. If reading opinions from people who DO hold specific moral beliefs makes you "feel guilty," you might want to do a little introspection.And FTR, I don't think he paid for killing those dogs at all. He certainly wasn't imprisoned for it. He was imprisoned for bankrolling an interstate gambling ring. It's my opinion he deserves a lifetime of pain, derision, scorn, and rejection for his actions against the dogs. I don't care a whit about racketeering.
thehornet
Footballguy
VaTerp
Footballguy
I've really tried to stay out of this for the most part but this is just silly. First of all, what constitutes "tacitly or actively endorsing players?" Having them in your fantasy lineup? That's absurd. If you truly believe that to be the case then you should do as others have suggested in this thread and vet everyone on your roster to make sure they are not engaging in any behavior you believe to be a sin.And if anything, you do more to tacitly and actively endorse all players by watching NFL games on Sunday, by purchasing any NFL merchandise, or financially supporting the league in any way. That is much more of an endorsement than rostering any players in FF.
Here you're implying that people who don't agree with you don't hold specific moral beliefs. The term self-righteous comes to mind but that doesnt even capture the irrationality of this line of thinking.
Vick plead guilty to "Conspiracy to Travel in Interstate Commerce in Aid of Unlawful Activities AND to Sponsor a Dog in an Animal Fighting Venture so he was imprisoned for his actions with those dogs. Not to mention that Vick also pled guilty to state charges that were specifically for dog fighting. That you personally think he deserves to suffer for the rest of his life is irrelevant other than to show the extreme, fanatical point of view that shapes your opinion on this matter and causes you to want to condemn a PERSON for the rest of their life. You are certainly entitled to that opinion and more power to you for never even considering Vick as a fantasy option. Fortunately though, your extreme view is not shared by mainstream society or the vast majority of those who legislate laws in this country.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Happy Ragnarok said:
