Anyone downgrading Fitz and Boldin? (1 Viewer)

[duaneok66]

Where do you place the two receivers since the coaching change??

I'd say you have to upgrade Edge and downgrade Leinart, Fitzgerald and Boldin . . .

according to the Cards beatwriter, they want to run 550 times . . .

last year they only ran about 420 times . . .

550 would put them at (or near) the top of the league in rush attempts . . .

of course, their defense (if it isnt good) probably wont allow them to do that

thoughts???

 

[AnonymousBob]

I want to make a million dollars, but my job won't allow me to do that.

 

[Block]

I've thought ever since Whizz and Grimm were hired that both Cardinals WRs are risky propositions this year for their ADPs.

They were never a team that threw alot because they had a great offense (ala the Rams or Colts), they always threw alot because they couldn't run and their defense stunk.

With the new coaches, you have to expect both the running game and the defense to improve, starting this year and continuing into the future.

I expect either Fitz or Boldin to emerge as Leinart's go-to guy, and the other to have a drop-off in production. Who it will be, I don't know, but I won't be drafting either anywhere near their ADP.

 

[BigRed]

? I don't get why people don't get this. Improved OL = more touches/yds/etc, not less.

IMO they have similar #s (allowing for Fitz' injury) - worst case - this year. Boldin may slack off some as I think Leinert will start leaning on Fitz more though.

PS and oh btw in the 2d half, EJ got more carries....and both Boldin and Fitz' recepts stayed pretty similiar (discounting Fitz missing a few games).

But keep up the downgrade talk, hopefully owners in my league will see this

 

[Jon_Moore]

I believe if the running game becomes legit, the cardinals are more likely to becoem a rams style offense.

Last year, they finished 18th in yards and 19th in points.If they run the ball effectively, they'll be able to to sustain drives, thereby attaining more points plays and yards. If the running game improves, defenses won't be able to focus on the passing game.

Leinart should show improvement, and personally I think he'll be an outstanding quarterback.

Just because they get more out of the running game doesn't necessarily mean they'll get less out of the passing game. Perhaps just a better total offense.

 

[David Yudkin]

? I don't get why people don't get this. Improved OL = more touches/yds/etc, not less. IMO they have similar #s (allowing for Fitz' injury) - worst case - this year. Boldin may slack off some as I think Leinert will start leaning on Fitz more though.PS and oh btw in the 2d half, EJ got more carries....and both Boldin and Fitz' recepts stayed pretty similiar (discounting Fitz missing a few games).But keep up the downgrade talk, hopefully owners in my league will see this

The year when Fitz ranked #2 and Boldin #8 the Cardinals threw the ball 670 times. The year Whisnhunt took over the offense in Pittsburgh the Steelers had 358 passing attempts.I think it is unlikely that the team will be close to either of those numbers. IMO, the answer will be closer to in the middle. It's very possible that Arizona could throw the ball 200 times less than they did in 2005. If that is the case, it will be highly unlikely that Fitzgerald and Boldin will hit their projected numbers (FBG currently has Fitz projected 6th and Boldin 9th).How did the Steelers receivers fare the last three years? Ward barely hit the top 10 once but other than that there were no other banner receiving years.

 

[SproutDaddy]

Fitz and Boldin are the best options on that offense. Why would they get the ball into their hands less? Did Edge drink from the fountain of youth or something? Better yet, did Edge and JJ become the next great tandem at RB in the league?

 

[Mark Wimer]

I believe if the running game becomes legit, the cardinals are more likely to becoem a rams style offense.

Last year, they finished 18th in yards and 19th in points.If they run the ball effectively, they'll be able to to sustain drives, thereby attaining more points plays and yards. If the running game improves, defenses won't be able to focus on the passing game.

Leinart should show improvement, and personally I think he'll be an outstanding quarterback.

Just because they get more out of the running game doesn't necessarily mean they'll get less out of the passing game. Perhaps just a better total offense.

Check out the stats from St. Louis last year: vs. the Cards: The Cards were 26th in rushing attempts (419) and 7th in passing attempts (546) - the Rams were 23rd in rushing attempts (424) and 3rd in passing (592 attempts). Last year, the Cards were a Rams-style offense. However, the big difference in the two teams was production in the running game - 1805 yards (17th in the NFL) and 4.26 per carry (10th in the NFL) for the Rams vs. 1338 yards (30th) and 3.19 per carry (32nd) in the NFL for the Cards.

So, the passing games (322/546 for 3924 yards, 17 TDs and 17 INT for ARI; vs. 371/592 for 4328 yards, 24 TDs and 8 TDs) varied substantially and in proportion to the effectiveness of the respective team's running game/run blocking OL play (St. Louis' pass blocking last year was atrocious, and Arizona's was only mediocre).

Anyway, the point that a more effective running game will help the passing game seems to be upheld in the comparison of these 2 teams circa 2006. I would assert that any reasonable study of NFL offenses would find that teams that can rush the ball effectively also have greater success throwing the ball - unsuccessful, one-dimensional offenses rarely succeed in producing top numbers in the NFL. However, the number of touches that are assigned to RBs vs. WRs on any given team in any given year are going to be largely driven by personnel considerations, IMO. When you have Steve Spurrier under center as your starting QB, and Louis Carter as your premier back, as the Tampa Bay Bucs did back in 1976, you are doomed whichever way you turn.

With Edgerrin James and Marcel Shipp in the backfield behind Leinart/Fitzgerald/Boldin/Johnson/Pope, I think you have an entirely different dynamic. I think that it is very possible for both Fitzgerald and Boldin to be among the top 20 WRs in the NFL (I have them at #2 and #18 as of 6/12/07), and it would be only a mild surprise to see both in the top 10.

My .02.

 

[Jon_Moore]

I believe if the running game becomes legit, the cardinals are more likely to becoem a rams style offense.

Last year, they finished 18th in yards and 19th in points.If they run the ball effectively, they'll be able to to sustain drives, thereby attaining more points plays and yards. If the running game improves, defenses won't be able to focus on the passing game.

Leinart should show improvement, and personally I think he'll be an outstanding quarterback.

Just because they get more out of the running game doesn't necessarily mean they'll get less out of the passing game. Perhaps just a better total offense.

Check out the stats from St. Louis last year: vs. the Cards: The Cards were 26th in rushing attempts (419) and 7th in passing attempts (546) - the Rams were 23rd in rushing attempts (424) and 3rd in passing (592 attempts). Last year, the Cards were a Rams-style offense. However, the big difference in the two teams was production in the running game - 1805 yards (17th in the NFL) and 4.26 per carry (10th in the NFL) for the Rams vs. 1338 yards (30th) and 3.19 per carry (32nd) in the NFL for the Cards.

So, the passing games (322/546 for 3924 yards, 17 TDs and 17 INT for ARI; vs. 371/592 for 4328 yards, 24 TDs and 8 TDs) varied substantially and in proportion to the effectiveness of the respective team's running game/run blocking OL play (St. Louis' pass blocking last year was atrocious, and Arizona's was only mediocre).

Anyway, the point that a more effective running game will help the passing game seems to be upheld in the comparison of these 2 teams circa 2006. I would assert that any reasonable study of NFL offenses would find that teams that can rush the ball effectively also have greater success throwing the ball - unsuccessful, one-dimensional offenses rarely succeed in producing top numbers in the NFL. However, the number of touches that are assigned to RBs vs. WRs on any given team in any given year are going to be largely driven by personnel considerations, IMO. When you have Steve Spurrier under center as your starting QB, and Louis Carter as your premier back, as the Tampa Bay Bucs did back in 1976, you are doomed whichever way you turn.

With Edgerrin James and Marcel Shipp in the backfield behind Leinart/Fitzgerald/Boldin/Johnson/Pope, I think you have an entirely different dynamic. I think that it is very possible for both Fitzgerald and Boldin to be among the top 20 WRs in the NFL (I have them at #2 and #18 as of 6/12/07), and it would be only a mild surprise to see both in the top 10.

My .02.

Pretty much made me look like I know what i'm talkin about haha.

 

[LHUCKS]

Fitz is overrated and will make my annual FBG rankings critique as such.

 

[David Yudkin]

IIRC, here are the teams that produced two Top 10 WR in the same season since 1990 and the total number of passing attempts their team had that season. (There may be others but it won't matter all that much.)

2006 IND (Harrison 1/Wayne 3) 557

2005 ARI (Fitzgerald 2/Boldin 8) 670

2004 IND (Harrison 5/Wayne 8) 526

2002 PIT (Ward 3/Burress 8) 551

2002 BUF (Moulds 4/Price 7) 612

2001 OAK (Brown 9/Rice 10) 553

2000 DEN (Smith 4/McCaffrey 8) 569

2000 STL (Bruce 6/ Holt 7) 587

2000 MIN (Moss 1/Carter 10) 495

1999 MIN (Moss 2/Carter 3) 530

1999 CAR (Jeffers 7/Muhammad 10) 575

1998 MIN (Moss 1/Carter 7) 533

1998 SFO (Owens 3/Rice 8) 556

1996 MIN (Carter 7/Reed 9) 561

1995 DET (Moore 3/Perriman 8) 605

1992 HOU (Givins 6/Jeffires 7) 573

1992 ATL (Rison 4/Haynes 9) 548

1991 SFO (Rice 1/Taylor 10) 522

1991 ATL (Haynes 5/Rison 7) 500

1990 HOU (Givins 4/Jeffires 6) 639

The $64,000 question is how many passing attempts the Cardinals will have this year and whether Whisenhunt get get Arizona anywhere near his goal of 550-600 rushing attempts. It appears to me that Arizona will likely need 550 passing attempts to garner 2 Top 10 WRs. My crystal ball is in the shop getting repaired, so I guess will have to wait to find out what happens.

 

[lions327]

Comparing this Arizona team to Pittsburgh is apples and oranges.

First, Pittsburgh was a team led by Cowher that wanted to play solid defense and run the football.

Second, they never had WR's with the skill of Fitz and Boldin. They also had strong offensive lines and Arizona's is weak.

Third, Arizona is not exactly a defensive powerhouse. They don't get leads and play solid defense like Pittsburgh, they often trail and have to throw the ball.

They may not throw it as much, but Fitz and Boldin will get theirs. And don't forget Leinart was a rookie last year. As he gains experience, the passing game overall will be more efficient.

I see this having very little effect on either Arizona WR for the immediate future.

 

[zamboni]

Remember when many were concerned that defensive-minded Tony Dungy would "Dungify" the Colts offense? We saw how that turned out (or didn't turn out).

There's certainly a chance that the defense improves under Whisenhunt and diminishes the need to chuck the ball left and right. But for the most part, one has to think he'll use his best options, which are two top-notch WRs.

 

[BigRed]

It's a question of degree....no way do I see 670 attempts, but I don't see it plunging to a ton less either. They have 2 great WRs and an aging RB. I don't buy the coaching trying to pretend this is the Steelers and they're morons if they do. So somewhat more of a balanced O, yeah, but not a total switch.

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

 

[Jason Wood]

There are plenty of factors at play here...it needs to be said that an increase in running attempts is, in no way, perfectly correlated with an decrease in passing attempts. Ultimately if the Cardinals are more successful rushing the ball, they should convert more first downs and sustain more drives.

That said, unless people expect the Cardinals to creep up to the top of the league's offensive rankings, we can safely say that there are about 50-75 incremental offensive snaps before the rush/pass ratio starts to forcibly move against one another.

Bottom line, the Cardinals don't have the horses to run 550 times, but if they do manage 475-480 times (midway between 2006 and Whisenhunt's 2007 stated goal), we can presume Leinart and Company will throw the ball in the range of 500-520 attempts, give or take.

 

[LHUCKS]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

we can presume Leinart and Company will throw the ball in the range of 500-520 attempts, give or take.

According to David Yudkin's pass attempts up above, just two years ago they threw the ball 670 times. That barely kept Bolden in the top 10. If they throw the ball 150 less times than that season........I don't see how both can stay in the top 10.

 

[LHUCKS]

If they throw the ball 150 less times than that season........I don't see how both can stay in the top 10.

 

[Jason Wood]

we can presume Leinart and Company will throw the ball in the range of 500-520 attempts, give or take.

According to David Yudkin's pass attempts up above, just two years ago they threw the ball 670 times. That barely kept Bolden in the top 10. If they throw the ball 150 less times than that season........I don't see how both can stay in the top 10.

I don't have either in my top 10.

 

[switz]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

If either WR was to take a dip in stats due to less chances it would be Fitz, since Boldin dominates at YAC.

 

[David Yudkin]

we can presume Leinart and Company will throw the ball in the range of 500-520 attempts, give or take.

According to David Yudkin's pass attempts up above, just two years ago they threw the ball 670 times. That barely kept Bolden in the top 10. If they throw the ball 150 less times than that season........I don't see how both can stay in the top 10.

I don't have either in my top 10.

Wlecome to the club . . .

 

[Mark Wimer]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

If either WR was to take a dip in stats due to less chances it would be Fitz, since Boldin dominates at YAC.

More often than not I agree with switz but I don't think this particular post is on target. Fitzgerald is the superior red-zone threat and will get more chances at the goal line IMO. Fitzgerald actually has a higher YPC average for his career than Boldin.Boldin: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 ari | 16 | 5 40 8.0 0 | 101 1377 13.6 8 || 2004 ari | 10 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 56 623 11.1 1 || 2005 ari | 14 | 12 45 3.8 0 | 102 1402 13.7 7 || 2006 ari | 16 | 5 28 5.6 0 | 83 1203 14.5 4 |career Totals receiving: 342/4605/20 13.5 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 17 receptions)Fitzgerald: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2004 ari | 16 | 8 14 1.8 0 | 58 780 13.4 8 || 2005 ari | 16 | 8 41 5.1 0 | 103 1409 13.7 10 || 2006 ari | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 69 946 13.7 6 |career Totals receiving: 230/3135/24 13.6 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 9.5 receptions)

 

[David Yudkin]

I get that the Steelers and Cardinals are not the same teams, but here are how the Steelers WRs fared TD wise with Whisenhunt on-board:

2004: 5 and 4 TD

2005: 11 and 2 TD

2006: 6 and 4 TD

If the Cardinals really do try to emulate the Steelers offense of the past few years, there may not be a ton of TD going to WRs.

I know that the Cards defense is not what the Steelers was, that Leinart could very well be better than Big Ben, that Edge is not FWP, but IMO there still are telltale signs that Arizona will not be turning into the 99-01 Rams.

 

[Mark Wimer]

I get that the Steelers and Cardinals are not the same teams, but here are how the Steelers WRs fared TD wise with Whisenhunt on-board:2004: 5 and 4 TD2005: 11 and 2 TD2006: 6 and 4 TDIf the Cardinals really do try to emulate the Steelers offense of the past few years, there may not be a ton of TD going to WRs.I know that the Cards defense is not what the Steelers was, that Leinart could very well be better than Big Ben, that Edge is not FWP, but IMO there still are telltale signs that Arizona will not be turning into the 99-01 Rams.

OL woes force passing for this team, IMO. Running Backs+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| Name | G | RSH YARD AVG TD | REC YARD AVG TD |+-------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+| J.J. Arrington | 16 | 14 19 1.4 0 | 8 58 7.2 0 || Ob Ayanbadejo | 15 | 9 37 4.1 0 | 17 139 8.2 0 || Ferri Diamond | 3 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 || Edgerrin James | 16 | 337 1159 3.4 6 | 38 217 5.7 0 || Marcel Shipp | 15 | 17 41 2.4 4 | 6 60 10.0 0 |+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

 

[David Yudkin]

OL woes force passing for this team, IMO.

IMO, the real variable as to what happens to the Arizona offense will be how well the DEFENSE does. The year the Steelers had some insane amount of rushing attempts (618 IIRC), they were below league average in ypc and barely cracked the Top 20 in that category.I am willing to give the new staff a crack at getting more mileage out of the OL (in addition to grabbing the best OL option in the draft). I suspect that the OL will do better in their run blocking (although they won't turn into the Chiefs or Broncos from the past few years).If the defense can get to "average," I suspect we will see a lot more rushing attempts this year. If not, we will see an increase in rushing attempts but still a potent passing attack. That's why they play the games . . .

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

No offense to Ward, but in the RZ he is no Fitz.

 

[AnonymousBob]

OL woes force passing for this team, IMO.

IMO, the real variable as to what happens to the Arizona offense will be how well the DEFENSE does. The year the Steelers had some insane amount of rushing attempts (618 IIRC), they were below league average in ypc and barely cracked the Top 20 in that category.I am willing to give the new staff a crack at getting more mileage out of the OL (in addition to grabbing the best OL option in the draft). I suspect that the OL will do better in their run blocking (although they won't turn into the Chiefs or Broncos from the past few years).If the defense can get to "average," I suspect we will see a lot more rushing attempts this year. If not, we will see an increase in rushing attempts but still a potent passing attack. That's why they play the games . . .

Going along with that, I think who the opponent is each week would also play a factor. Afterall, if you're playing the Colts you're more likely to be losing in the fourth quarter than if you're playing the Texans.Here is the 2007 schedule for the Cardinals:NinersSeahawksRavensSteelersRams PanthersRedskinsBuccaneersLionsBengalsNinersBrownsSeahawksSaintsFalconsRams (week 17)

 

[duaneok66]

Remember when many were concerned that defensive-minded Tony Dungy would "Dungify" the Colts offense? We saw how that turned out (or didn't turn out).

There's certainly a chance that the defense improves under Whisenhunt and diminishes the need to chuck the ball left and right. But for the most part, one has to think he'll use his best options, which are two top-notch WRs.

the Colts and Cards situation are totally different . . .the "many" referred to FANS thinking Dungy would corral the offense, Dungy never said he would do so, and shortly thereafter he gave much of the offensive control to holdover Moore . . .

in the Cards situation, Whisenhunt is ON RECORD saying that he wasnts to run the ball 550-600 times . . .

whether he does so or not (due to the quality of the defense hr probably won't be able to) is at issue, but is pretty clear that the philosophy will be markedly different . . .

 

[duaneok66]

OL woes force passing for this team, IMO.

IMO, the real variable as to what happens to the Arizona offense will be how well the DEFENSE does. The year the Steelers had some insane amount of rushing attempts (618 IIRC), they were below league average in ypc and barely cracked the Top 20 in that category.I am willing to give the new staff a crack at getting more mileage out of the OL (in addition to grabbing the best OL option in the draft). I suspect that the OL will do better in their run blocking (although they won't turn into the Chiefs or Broncos from the past few years).

If the defense can get to "average," I suspect we will see a lot more rushing attempts this year. If not, we will see an increase in rushing attempts but still a potent passing attack. That's why they play the games . . .

excellent post . . .

 

[BigRed]

I get that the Steelers and Cardinals are not the same teams, but here are how the Steelers WRs fared

 

[switz]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

If either WR was to take a dip in stats due to less chances it would be Fitz, since Boldin dominates at YAC.

More often than not I agree with switz but I don't think this particular post is on target. Fitzgerald is the superior red-zone threat and will get more chances at the goal line IMO. Fitzgerald actually has a higher YPC average for his career than Boldin.Boldin: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 ari | 16 | 5 40 8.0 0 | 101 1377 13.6 8 || 2004 ari | 10 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 56 623 11.1 1 || 2005 ari | 14 | 12 45 3.8 0 | 102 1402 13.7 7 || 2006 ari | 16 | 5 28 5.6 0 | 83 1203 14.5 4 |career Totals receiving: 342/4605/20 13.5 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 17 receptions)Fitzgerald: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2004 ari | 16 | 8 14 1.8 0 | 58 780 13.4 8 || 2005 ari | 16 | 8 41 5.1 0 | 103 1409 13.7 10 || 2006 ari | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 69 946 13.7 6 |career Totals receiving: 230/3135/24 13.6 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 9.5 receptions)

I appreciate the compliment Mark, and agree - we usually see eye to eye. I guess here is why we differ on this subject:Interestingly, the season that drags down Boldin's YPR is the season he was hurt, only played 10 games, and it was a leg injury. Every other season he has tied or bested Fitz in YPR.2003 - no Fitz, Boldin avg'd 13.6 YPR as a ROOKIE2005 - both avg'd 13.7 (while Boldin missed two game for injury)2006 - Boldin 14.5 to Fitz 13.7 (Fits missed 3 games for injury)The career average is skewed by Boldin's injured season, and even with that he matches Fitz for their careers. It only supports that Boldin is better after the catch.Add in that Boldin saw more receptions last year with Leinart, and it would seem his receptions will drop off less than Fitz if Whisenhunt diminishes the passing game at all.Fitz is the more used red zone target because of his leaping ability. But Boldin holds his own with almost ZERO red zone looks. And if Whisenhunt moves more toward running, it will have the biggest impact in the red zone, meaning that Fitz's opps in the red zone will go down. Again making Fitz the worse of the two options at WR.Taking all that into consideration, it would seem Boldin would be the better bet between the two. At least that's my take.

 

[Franchise Playa]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

If either WR was to take a dip in stats due to less chances it would be Fitz, since Boldin dominates at YAC.

More often than not I agree with switz but I don't think this particular post is on target. Fitzgerald is the superior red-zone threat and will get more chances at the goal line IMO. Fitzgerald actually has a higher YPC average for his career than Boldin.Boldin: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 ari | 16 | 5 40 8.0 0 | 101 1377 13.6 8 || 2004 ari | 10 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 56 623 11.1 1 || 2005 ari | 14 | 12 45 3.8 0 | 102 1402 13.7 7 || 2006 ari | 16 | 5 28 5.6 0 | 83 1203 14.5 4 |career Totals receiving: 342/4605/20 13.5 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 17 receptions)Fitzgerald: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2004 ari | 16 | 8 14 1.8 0 | 58 780 13.4 8 || 2005 ari | 16 | 8 41 5.1 0 | 103 1409 13.7 10 || 2006 ari | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 69 946 13.7 6 |career Totals receiving: 230/3135/24 13.6 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 9.5 receptions)

I appreciate the compliment Mark, and agree - we usually see eye to eye. I guess here is why we differ on this subject:Interestingly, the season that drags down Boldin's YPR is the season he was hurt, only played 10 games, and it was a leg injury. Every other season he has tied or bested Fitz in YPR.2003 - no Fitz, Boldin avg'd 13.6 YPR as a ROOKIE2005 - both avg'd 13.7 (while Boldin missed two game for injury)2006 - Boldin 14.5 to Fitz 13.7 (Fits missed 3 games for injury)The career average is skewed by Boldin's injured season, and even with that he matches Fitz for their careers. It only supports that Boldin is better after the catch.Add in that Boldin saw more receptions last year with Leinart, and it would seem his receptions will drop off less than Fitz if Whisenhunt diminishes the passing game at all.Fitz is the more used red zone target because of his leaping ability. But Boldin holds his own with almost ZERO red zone looks. And if Whisenhunt moves more toward running, it will have the biggest impact in the red zone, meaning that Fitz's opps in the red zone will go down. Again making Fitz the worse of the two options at WR.Taking all that into consideration, it would seem Boldin would be the better bet between the two. At least that's my take.

Why does no one ever take into account that Boldin played in the slot his rookie year and if you put any number 1 caliber reciever in the slot he will excel? Im not saying he isn't a stud but Fitz didn't benefit from playing the slot his rookie year. He was out wide getting the teams best or 2nd best corner unlike Boldin his first year.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

If either WR was to take a dip in stats due to less chances it would be Fitz, since Boldin dominates at YAC.

More often than not I agree with switz but I don't think this particular post is on target. Fitzgerald is the superior red-zone threat and will get more chances at the goal line IMO. Fitzgerald actually has a higher YPC average for his career than Boldin.Boldin: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 ari | 16 | 5 40 8.0 0 | 101 1377 13.6 8 || 2004 ari | 10 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 56 623 11.1 1 || 2005 ari | 14 | 12 45 3.8 0 | 102 1402 13.7 7 || 2006 ari | 16 | 5 28 5.6 0 | 83 1203 14.5 4 |career Totals receiving: 342/4605/20 13.5 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 17 receptions)Fitzgerald: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2004 ari | 16 | 8 14 1.8 0 | 58 780 13.4 8 || 2005 ari | 16 | 8 41 5.1 0 | 103 1409 13.7 10 || 2006 ari | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 69 946 13.7 6 |career Totals receiving: 230/3135/24 13.6 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 9.5 receptions)

I appreciate the compliment Mark, and agree - we usually see eye to eye. I guess here is why we differ on this subject:Interestingly, the season that drags down Boldin's YPR is the season he was hurt, only played 10 games, and it was a leg injury. Every other season he has tied or bested Fitz in YPR.2003 - no Fitz, Boldin avg'd 13.6 YPR as a ROOKIE2005 - both avg'd 13.7 (while Boldin missed two game for injury)2006 - Boldin 14.5 to Fitz 13.7 (Fits missed 3 games for injury)The career average is skewed by Boldin's injured season, and even with that he matches Fitz for their careers. It only supports that Boldin is better after the catch.Add in that Boldin saw more receptions last year with Leinart, and it would seem his receptions will drop off less than Fitz if Whisenhunt diminishes the passing game at all.Fitz is the more used red zone target because of his leaping ability. But Boldin holds his own with almost ZERO red zone looks. And if Whisenhunt moves more toward running, it will have the biggest impact in the red zone, meaning that Fitz's opps in the red zone will go down. Again making Fitz the worse of the two options at WR.Taking all that into consideration, it would seem Boldin would be the better bet between the two. At least that's my take.

Why does no one ever take into account that Boldin played in the slot his rookie year and if you put any number 1 caliber reciever in the slot he will excel? Im not saying he isn't a stud but Fitz didn't benefit from playing the slot his rookie year. He was out wide getting the teams best or 2nd best corner unlike Boldin his first year.

I love Fitz and really think he is great player and an elite talent. But I think not enough people give Boldin the credit he deserves. This guy is on a hall of fame pace and has been good every year he has played whether it be in the slot or not. It seems people are always trying to discredit Boldin even though he is on a hall of fame pace and has had better start to his career than Fitz. And yes I know Fitz is younger and has all world talent, but Boldin has had the better start to his career.

 

[Franchise Playa]

Basically I see one of the 2 WRs here taking a noticable dip in stats (ie from their expected norm) and I'm betting it's Boldin.

why?

If either WR was to take a dip in stats due to less chances it would be Fitz, since Boldin dominates at YAC.

More often than not I agree with switz but I don't think this particular post is on target. Fitzgerald is the superior red-zone threat and will get more chances at the goal line IMO. Fitzgerald actually has a higher YPC average for his career than Boldin.Boldin: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 ari | 16 | 5 40 8.0 0 | 101 1377 13.6 8 || 2004 ari | 10 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 56 623 11.1 1 || 2005 ari | 14 | 12 45 3.8 0 | 102 1402 13.7 7 || 2006 ari | 16 | 5 28 5.6 0 | 83 1203 14.5 4 |career Totals receiving: 342/4605/20 13.5 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 17 receptions)Fitzgerald: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2004 ari | 16 | 8 14 1.8 0 | 58 780 13.4 8 || 2005 ari | 16 | 8 41 5.1 0 | 103 1409 13.7 10 || 2006 ari | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 69 946 13.7 6 |career Totals receiving: 230/3135/24 13.6 ypc (roughly 1 TD every 9.5 receptions)

I appreciate the compliment Mark, and agree - we usually see eye to eye. I guess here is why we differ on this subject:Interestingly, the season that drags down Boldin's YPR is the season he was hurt, only played 10 games, and it was a leg injury. Every other season he has tied or bested Fitz in YPR.2003 - no Fitz, Boldin avg'd 13.6 YPR as a ROOKIE2005 - both avg'd 13.7 (while Boldin missed two game for injury)2006 - Boldin 14.5 to Fitz 13.7 (Fits missed 3 games for injury)The career average is skewed by Boldin's injured season, and even with that he matches Fitz for their careers. It only supports that Boldin is better after the catch.Add in that Boldin saw more receptions last year with Leinart, and it would seem his receptions will drop off less than Fitz if Whisenhunt diminishes the passing game at all.Fitz is the more used red zone target because of his leaping ability. But Boldin holds his own with almost ZERO red zone looks. And if Whisenhunt moves more toward running, it will have the biggest impact in the red zone, meaning that Fitz's opps in the red zone will go down. Again making Fitz the worse of the two options at WR.Taking all that into consideration, it would seem Boldin would be the better bet between the two. At least that's my take.

Why does no one ever take into account that Boldin played in the slot his rookie year and if you put any number 1 caliber reciever in the slot he will excel? Im not saying he isn't a stud but Fitz didn't benefit from playing the slot his rookie year. He was out wide getting the teams best or 2nd best corner unlike Boldin his first year.

I love Fitz and really think he is great player and an elite talent. But I think not enough people give Boldin the credit he deserves. This guy is on a hall of fame pace and has been good every year he has played whether it be in the slot or not. It seems people are always trying to discredit Boldin even though he is on a hall of fame pace and has had better start to his career than Fitz. And yes I know Fitz is younger and has all world talent, but Boldin has had the better start to his career.

I understand and agree with you that Boldin does not get enough credit out of the 2 of them, but someone always brings up the rookie season numbers and neglect to mention he was primarily in the slot. Look at his numbers in and out of the slot position and you will see the difference. The new coaches plan on putting him back in the slot this year to maximize his massive potential there. Boldin may have had the better start but better starts don't give you a pass to the HOF. The reason people jump into Fitz's corner so frequently is because the guy is someone that does not come along very often. There have been players you can put next to Boldin and compare him to, but Fitz is a somewhat of a freak of nature with his skills, size and unbeliveable hands at a young age. Compared to that it's easy to get overlooked sometimes. In the same manner Carl Banks and Harry Carson was overlooked playing next to LT on the old Giants teams this may be a similar thing.

 

[BigRed]

I love Fitz and really think he is great player and an elite talent. But I think not enough people give Boldin the credit he deserves. This guy is on a hall of fame pace and has been good every year he has played whether it be in the slot or not. It seems people are always trying to discredit Boldin even though he is on a hall of fame pace and has had better start to his career than Fitz. And yes I know Fitz is younger and has all world talent, but Boldin has had the better start to his career.

So what you're saying is Boldin is on a hall of fame pace and has had the better start to his career?

 

[kensat30]

Only good teams have the luxury of running the ball late in games and as much as they want. Arizona is not a good team.

I don't think we will see Boldin or Fitz reach 100 receptions again in 2007, but I also don't think that they will dip below 80 either. Boldin and Fitz seem to be appropriately valued due to their TD scoring potential. Fitz I'm seeing drafted in the early 3rd and Boldin in the early 4th. I think either is a pretty decent pick for their ADP. Edgerrin James is the guy that I am avoiding.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

Here is the 2007 schedule for the Cardinals:WIN - NinersWIN - SeahawksWIN - RavensLOSS - SteelersLOSS - Rams WIN - PanthersWIN - RedskinsWIN - BuccaneersWIN - LionsWIN - BengalsLOSS - NinersWIN - BrownsWIN - SeahawksLOSS - SaintsWIN - FalconsLOSS - Rams (week 17)

Wow - I can see them going 11-5!

 

[jcjets]

Nothing will change much unless the coaches do not adapt to their players. Did Billick make the Ravens a passing team after leaving the vikings when he had Moss, Reed, Carter? Did Parcells make the Pats a running team or did Bledsoe finish in the top 5 in pass attempts when he was there?

Unless the new staff says lets ignore the talent we have at the WR spot and run run run I see Fitz and Boldin having close to the same stats as last year. Its the O-line he will work with most, and get himself a defense before he mucks with the passing game.

And yes this is just an opinion.

 

[ShadowMaster]

I believe if the running game becomes legit, the cardinals are more likely to becoem a rams style offense.

YEAH! cuz that's what they ran in Pittsburgh Some of you guys are really lucky to have these boards to help you with the completely misguided ideas.

 

[David Yudkin]

Did Billick make the Ravens a passing team after leaving the vikings when he had Moss, Reed, Carter?

The Ravens had 80 more passing attemtps in Year 1 of the Billick era and rose to the Top 10 in 2001. Not really a great comparison as the Ravens defense mopped the floor with anything the Vikings rolled out.

Did Parcells make the Pats a running team or did Bledsoe finish in the top 5 in pass attempts when he was there?

Parcells drafted Bledsoe and had no RB with more than 450 rushing yards the year before. And the team rushed 80 more times in Bledsoe's rookie season than the year before, ranking 4th in the league in rushing attempts. The Pats only started to air it out when Leonard Russell left town and they had no one competent to run the ball. When Martin arrived the team rushing totals shot way up.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Unless Edgerrin James finds on another gear and the line improves dramatically, they'll still throw early and often. His inability to break runs turns that offense stagnant.

James 06 game log

 

[David Yudkin]

Unless Edgerrin James finds on another gear and the line improves dramatically, they'll still throw early and often. His inability to break runs turns that offense stagnant.

James 06 game log

IIRC, James had only a couple of runs over 20 yards in 2005 with IND and they seemed to do ok (as did James).

 

[steelcityman]

wisenhunt will throw a lot more than the steelers did when he was there. cowher controlled wisenhunt, cowher was all about power game, wisenhunt will throw all day if he can, and I think the cards TE might be a nice sleeper pick this year. I'd keep Fitz and AB in the same spots as last year, top 10 WRs, both of them. Leinart might have a super season if he limits INTS

 

[David Yudkin]

wisenhunt will throw a lot more than the steelers did when he was there. cowher controlled wisenhunt, cowher was all about power game, wisenhunt will throw all day if he can, and I think the cards TE might be a nice sleeper pick this year. I'd keep Fitz and AB in the same spots as last year, top 10 WRs, both of them. Leinart might have a super season if he limits INTS

Whisenhunt has stated that he plans on running the ball 550-600 times this season. So are we to assume that he is bluffing in how he plans on shaping the offense?Whether the team can support that workload on the ground is another story altogether, but I don't see them turning into the team that had 670 passing attempts with Warner as the primary QB and Green as HC.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Unless Edgerrin James finds on another gear and the line improves dramatically, they'll still throw early and often. His inability to break runs turns that offense stagnant.

James 06 game log

IIRC, James had only a couple of runs over 20 yards in 2005 with IND and they seemed to do ok (as did James).

Too bad that he never broke one run, not one, for 20 yards last year. 6 games with less than 11 yards as a long run is not putting the fear into any d-coordionator, despite a pair of stud WRs. His receptions have declined annually since the 03 season as well, so James' glass is half empty unless they make changes.

 

[David Yudkin]

Unless Edgerrin James finds on another gear and the line improves dramatically, they'll still throw early and often. His inability to break runs turns that offense stagnant.

James 06 game log

IIRC, James had only a couple of runs over 20 yards in 2005 with IND and they seemed to do ok (as did James).

Too bad that he never broke one run, not one, for 20 yards last year. 6 games with less than 11 yards as a long run is not putting the fear into any d-coordionator, despite a pair of stud WRs. His receptions have declined annually since the 03 season as well, so James' glass is half empty unless they make changes.

Does adding Whisenhunt and Grimm to the coaching staff and adding Levi Brown count as changes?

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Unless Edgerrin James finds on another gear and the line improves dramatically, they'll still throw early and often. His inability to break runs turns that offense stagnant.

James 06 game log

IIRC, James had only a couple of runs over 20 yards in 2005 with IND and they seemed to do ok (as did James).

Too bad that he never broke one run, not one, for 20 yards last year. 6 games with less than 11 yards as a long run is not putting the fear into any d-coordionator, despite a pair of stud WRs. His receptions have declined annually since the 03 season as well, so James' glass is half empty unless they make changes.

Does adding Whisenhunt and Grimm to the coaching staff and adding Levi Brown count as changes?

You'd certainly hope so. Ideally, the WRs pull coverage away from the LOS, so James should have enough lanes to run through. Exploiting those gaps for 15-20-25+ yard runs is another thing altogether. I've had high expectations for this team for a while, so I'd like to see them win 9ish games, but one thing or the other keeps dragging them down.

 

[steelcityman]

I think he is bluffing, a bit, but he knows he has to run to throw, if he can get a decent season from Edge, then it will open up the passing lanes for 2 dynamic WRs. I dont think you'll see Edge averaging 30 carries a game, and Leinart 17 pass attempts. I think 30 PAs by Leinart, and about the same # of running plays per game, balance. That doesnt mean they cant throw for 30 TDs or 3600 yards. Levi Brown doesnt make an entire OL run block better, he's a rookie to boot. I plan on taking Leinart in the upper-middle rounds of my draft, I think he can move into a Tom Brady-like stat category. That doesnt mean the Cards are super bowl contenders either.

Remember, the steelers had Bettis, Parker and some other decent backup RBs, and never had 2 WRs like the Cards do, since the 70s. If wisenhunt tries to run that much, he is foolish and leaving rounds in the chamber every week.

 

[stanmarino13]

Never had 2 WR's since the 70's? In 2002 the Steelers had Ward/Burress combine for 190 catches, 2654 yards, and 19 tds.

 

[trogg78]

Everyone should totally do this!....in fact, you should go to all the FF websites all around and encourage everyone to do this!