Asiata vs. McKinnon (1 Viewer)

[jtd13]

What kind of value are people getting for trading Asiata? Targeting the AD owners who didn't handcuff him?

Dynasty I've traded him in 2. Traded Asiata and a 2nd for OBJ & 3rd in one. Traded him and m. bryant for Latimer in another. Super happy with both, but both took a lot of work.

 

[cvnpoka]

The "experts" on fantasypros.com have actually been rather infatuated with Asiata lately. The most accurate experts had him at an overall ECR of 12 last week. So far this week, with a limited number of people weighing in (15) they have him pegged as the #13th overall back with his best ranking being 6th and his worst 19th. He really is a prime example of how opportunity is weighted so heavily in fantasy football.

dodds has been all over asiata for weeks. hes been pretty correct about it too.

Dodds has him ranked 9th in PPR this week.

he was 7 week 3.

 

[Biabreakable]

In case anyone was wondering about pass pro. up to this point.

@PFF has Matt Asiata with perfect pass-blocking rating on 23 snaps. McKinnon poor mark of 71% on 6 snaps

McKinnon only has 6 snaps of pass pro up to this point in the season? I thought he had that many in the last game alone.

When he's in on pass plays, he rarely stays in to block. Pretty much releases on every play. Still isn't trusted in pass-pro.

I didn't watch the whole game, only bits and pieces late at the bar, but McKinnon seemed to make some decent blocks in pass pro. At least, I didn't see him make any terrible mistakes or anything. He hung back and did his job on the few plays when I was looking at that TV.

I may watch the game again tonight and will try to take a few notes about this specifically.

There is one that I recall where McKinnon lined up on the right side of Bridgewater and the Falcons blitzed off of the left side. McKinnon had to come all the way across the formation and meet that blitzer while crossing Bridgewaters drop. A difficult situation for any RB. McKinnon did not disrupt Bridgewaters drop and successfully met the blitzer on the left side of the formation and blocked him well.

Jerick McKinnon did bench 32 times at the combine. Certainly a high mark for any RB. He packs a punch you might not think he has for a player of his size. He is also very fast and can get on top of defensive backs or linebackers quickly.

 

[SameSongNDance]

Okay I just rewatched all of his snaps on game rewind. He was asked to stay back and block maybe 5-6 times at most and only actually had to pick someone up on 3 of them. Honestly, he looked absolutely fine to me. He actually looks very capable. I still expect them to use Asiata more in obvious passing situation as he is still superior but I can confidently say that pass protection was not a weakness of McKinnon's vs. ATL.

 

[Biabreakable]

3rd possession for the Vikings begins with the big run from Jerick McKinnon, which is well blocked. McKinnon has the speed to turn this play into an explosive play that I do not think Asiata would have.

After the big run the Vikings call pass and McKinnon sits down in the middle about 5 yards off the LOS. With no receivers open Bridgewater checks down to McKinnon but the pass is hard and bounces of McKinnon's hands.

2nd down Bridgewater audibles into an inside run to McKinnon who gains 6 yards.

3rd down McKinnon stays in to block but the potential blitzer does not come.

The 4th possession the Vikings use Matt Asiata who has a nice block on a defensive lineman after a twist. This posession led to the Bridewater TD run.

During the 2 minute offense Jerick McKinnon is the RB. The Vikings run with him and the Falcons use time outs hoping for a stop so they can try another drive before half time. This backfires on them as McKinnon runs for the 1st down and if he did not trip on Jerome Felton's leg he may have run for a touchdown as commented by Ronde Barber. On the next down the Vikings have McKinnon run a circle route which Bridgewater connects with him on and he runs for another first down. The next play is hurried as the clock is running. This is the play I was talking about before. Bridgewater is in the shotgun with McKinnon to his right and a little behind him. The blitz comes from the left side and McKinnon recognizes and is able to make his way to the other side of the formation and make the block. The pass is to Jarius Wright moving the Vikings into field goal range. The next play McKinnon helps Kalil block the outside rusher and the pass is complete to Chase Ford. The next play the Vikings call an inside run to McKinnon and they call it a TD initially but he was just short after review.The refs run 10 seconds more off the clock and the Vikings end up kicking a field goal after one attempt to Chase Ford at the back of the end zone as they only had 5 seconds left at that point.

The Vikings get the ball to start the second half. They start with Asiata and a run to the right side but false start nullify's the play and backs the Vikings up. Then they run a screen pass to Asiata who gets a good gain. The next play is a slant route to Patterson which is set up by play action. The next play is a run for Asiata where he gains a couple yards. He does fight for more yardage on the play but ends up at around the same spot. The next play Bridgewater scrambles for a 1st down. They run with Asiata again who gets 4 yards. On second down Bridgewater fakes that he is throwing the slant route (which went to Patterson earlier) then turns and hands off to Asiata who gets 5 yards. The Vikings try a QB sneak for the 1st down but fail to convert. After a time out the Vikings decide to kick a field goal.

The next drive they start with McKinnon who has a short run to the right side. After a false start by TE Gray, McKinnon runs a route out in the flat, Bridgewater connects with Greg Jennings on a comeback route. 1st down they run with McKinnon up the middle for 6 yards. On 2nd down McKinnon stays in to block but no blitzer to block. Bridgeater gets the ball to Jarius Wright. The next two plays are incomplete passes off of play action to McKinnon. The second was almost an interception but the db couldn't get under it. On 3rd down the Falcons get called for defensive holding and give the Vikings offense another set of downs. Ducasse gets called for holding on the next play backing the vikings up. McKinnon takes a play off with one of the trainers checking out his eyes and Asiata gets a run up the middle for 5 yards. The next play Bridgewater targets Patterson but incomplete. 3rd and 15 they try the screen to Wright again but the Falcons tackle him for minimal gain this time.

Next drive Asiata runs for 3 yards on 1st down. 2nd down bridgewater throws the ball away. 3rd down after a time out Bridgewater tries to connect with Wright on a deep ball but overthrows him.

Next drive they start with Asiata running to the right side where he runs over the safety as he gets dragged out of bounds for 3 yards. The safety gets hurt on the play. Bridgewater connects with Greg Jennings who was wide open. First down. Next play Bridgewater play actions to Asiata then connects with Patterson on a in route. The next play is play action again then a slant route to Wright. With goal to go the Vikings give the ball to Asiata twice but he doesn't score. On 3rd down they bring in McKinnon who Bridgewater fakes to before trying to run for the TD where he comes up short. This is the play where Bridgewater's ankle gets injured from a whip kick by a defender who missed the tackle on him. The Vikings go for it on 4th down and Asiata scores his 3rd TD. The 2 point conversion to Ellison is good. This is where Bridgewater gets his ankle taped.

With Ponder in at QB the Vikings run with McKinnon up the middle for a 1st down. They run with McKinnon again the next 3 plays and then kick a long field goal.

second series with Ponder they give the ball to McKinnon 3 times who again gets a big run on 3rd down to keep the clock moving for another set of downs. They run with McKinnon again for a short gain and then another run on second down. 2 minute warning. On 3rd down Ponder fakes to McKinnon then keeps the ball for a short gain and the Vikings kick a field goal.

Ronde Barber talked a lot about how impressed he was with Jerick McKinnon. Adrian Peterson said the same thing about him during training camp. I do not recall Peterson ever saying this about Matt Asiata.

 

[T with T]

I have a funny story about Asiata. I hope you guys don't mind. So last year during our live draft, we had one guy drafting remotely cuz he moved to Oregon. Around the 12th round, he drafts Matt Asiata. Everyone was like who? Remember Asiata was behind AP and Gerhart at the time and this guy didnt own either. So I call this guy up and ask him if he picked the wrong guy by accident and hes like no, hes thinking outside the box. So I hang up on him and we all start laughing at his pick. Anyway, guy drops him a few weeks later and life goes on... Until AP and gerhart gets hurt in the same game and Asiata is called in to start the game. As everyone remembers, that was the game Asiata had 3 TDs. Heres the kicker, the guy who drafted him didnt even pick him up THAT week. He went untouched in free agency. So this guy drafts him when hes the third stringer but when he finally gets the chance he has no interest in him. So Asiata will always be a punchline in our league.

guy sounds like an idiot......

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I had to go back and check on this.

On that fantastic 55-yard run the line destroyed the falcs d-line, & Felton, one of the league's best FBs, obliterated the LB creating a huge hole for McKinnon.

Vikings Rewind: Jerick McKinnon's 55-yard runhe situation: Up 14-7 with 13:07 left in the second quarter, the Vikings start their third offensive series at their own 8. They hand the ball off to rookie running back Jerick McKinnon.

The reason: The Vikings are pinned deep in their own end zone and need some room to work with. They design a draw play in this situation, hoping it’ll do the trick.

The result: McKinnon breaks off a career-long 55-yard run on his first carry to the Falcons 37 to put the Vikings in scoring position.

“I was messing with him a little bit,” fullback Jerome Felton said. “I was wondering when I was going to see it, so it’s good to finally see. It’s all good to talk about his speed and everything else, buy you’ve got to show it on Sundays. And he did that.”

The Vikings are lined up in an offset “I” formation, with Felton lined up to the right of rookie quarterback Teddy Bridgewater, in a 21 personnel (two backs and one tight end). It’d be considered “strong right” because of Felton’s alignment and tight end Rhett Ellison also lined up on the right side of the line of scrimmage. With McKinnon (circled in yellow) in the backfield, the Falcons stack the box with six near the line of scrimmage. They’re sensing run with the Vikings personnel.

They’re fooled. Well, at least initially they’re tricked. Bridgewater immediately sets his feet after receiving the snap and looks to wide receiver Greg Jennings (circled in yellow), who has about eight yards of separation from safety Dwight Lowery (circled in red) in the slot. Bridgewater pump fakes to Jennings, causing the Falcons to believe it’s a pass play.

Instead, it’s a delayed “iso draw” with McKinnon receiving the hand off after Bridgewater sells the pump fake. The Vikings did a great job blocking, particularly Felton (circled in yellow on the left) and center John Sullivan (circled in yellow on the right). They clear the entire “A” gap for McKinnon by sealing linebackers Joplo Bartu and Paul Worrilow.

“You want to fool the defense and have the linebackers think we’re about to pass the ball with the defensive line going to their pass rush techniques,” Felton said. “That usually opens up a big hole.”

Here’s another angle on how great the blocking was all around on that play by the offensive line, Ellison and Felton. McKinnon wisely opts to cut left, with two unblocked defenders to his right and Jennings and wide receiver Cordarrelle Patterson to his left.

What goes unnoticed on this play is McKinnon’s patience before he even receives the hand off.

“We talked about it all week just being patient and letting the quarterback bring the ball to him,” Felton said. “He did a good job of that and that allows them to get in their pass rush stuff with the linebackers thinking it’s pass. That was important to have patience there and you can see he’s really developed as a runner Sunday.”

After McKinnon cuts left, his eyes must’ve lit up from all the open space he had. Jennings had a nice block on Lowery to allow McKinnon to bounce outside, then Patterson (circled in yellow) also had a good block down field to allow for more yards on the explosive play.

“I just followed Jerome, and he had a great block – a knockdown as a matter of fact – on the ‘Mike,’” McKinnon said. “I made a cut off of him just ran in space.”

Felton’s block was definitely the most notable on that play, allowing McKinnon to play off the fullback. That first carry set up a breakout performance for McKinnon, who had 18 carries for 135 yards. In the first three games, the rookie had just five carries for seven yards.

“Usually if you’re downhill, the linebacker is going to be downhill,” Felton said. “But if you take a draw set, they’re think you’re about to release into the flat. It kind of keeps them off base and on their heels, and they really don’t know what to expect. I like it. It’s one of my favorite plays, so I’m glad we got that run.”

http://blog.startribune.com/sports/access-vikings/vikings-rewind-jerick-mckinnons-55-yard-run

Something people keep missing about all this pass pro talk is that the Vikes have Jerome Felton, one of the best run and pass blocking FBs in the league. If Felton & McKinnon are both in there they can do anything.

McKinnon also has 8 targets in 2 games so far.

 

[TheFanatic]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

 

[SameSongNDance]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You're right. It's was silly of me to expect him to finish the year with 40 TDs, I think I need to keep my expectations in check. Weak straw man, I never said I expected him to score three TDs a game. You do realize he needs to average .5 TDs a game from here on out to reach my double digit projection, right? The way Teddy, Wright and McKinnon looked, I think this offense will be capable of moving the ball down the field. My projection really isn't far off. I believe I prorated 40-60 all purpose yards, 3 catches and .5 TDs a game. Super attainable.

 

[Kendall The Great]

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You can make the same argument for long runs....

 

[mnmplayer]

I get that, but he *has* done it twice now, and in only 5 career games played (where he had a significant role), not to mention a receiving TD too. Matty like him some TDs. mmmmm

Not to0 many RBs get 3 TD games, let alone two 3 TD games, and in such a short period of time. I am sure that is a record.

edited to add: and they didn't even give him an opp for what would have been his 4th TD on that run where McKinnon was down on the half yard line. I am not sure why he never got an opp on 1st and goal from the half yard line but that would have been 4, mark it down. Hope Norv learned his lesson <g>.

 

[flapgreen]

This thread is a big turd

 

[Henry Ford]

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantasyfootball/players/playerpage/2129436/jerick-mckinnon

I didn't see it noted in the thread.

Vikings rookie running back Jerick McKinnon was limited in Tuesday's practice with an ankle injury ahead of Thursday's game at Green Bay. McKinnon ran 18 times for 135 yards in Sunday's win over Atlanta.

 

[SameSongNDance]

Raymond Summerlin ‏@RMSummerlin 18s19 seconds ago
McKinnon ran 9 routes to Asiata's 22 against the Falcons. Could be more involved, but a concern if the Vikings get down big.

 

[nastynate]

The falcons have given up 2 10+ point RBs in 3/4 games this year. I don't expect other teams to be that generous.

Have a feeling McKinnon will have some 6-8 touch games over the next month.

 

[TheFanatic]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You're right. It's was silly of me to expect him to finish the year with 40 TDs, I think I need to keep my expectations in check. Weak straw man, I never said I expected him to score three TDs a game. You do realize he needs to average .5 TDs a game from here on out to reach my double digit projection, right? The way Teddy, Wright and McKinnon looked, I think this offense will be capable of moving the ball down the field. My projection really isn't far off. I believe I prorated 40-60 all purpose yards, 3 catches and .5 TDs a game. Super attainable.

Let's look at his rushing and receiving numbers. In his three starts this year, he's averaged 49.6 yards per game rushing and 35 yards per game receiving. Those aren't bad numbers by themselves. That's more than 1K yards prorated out over a year. Throw in a TD every other game (based on your .5 TD's a game) and those are decent numbers, but in the games he doesn't get in the endzone are going to be problematic as there should be better options on your team, particularly since this guy's ceiling is relatively low and only increased by the luck of the TD.

Factor in the fact that in two of those games, McKinnon saw all the time at the end of decided games, and Asiata's outlook looks more bleak. And that McKinnon is getting more and more snaps every game, those Asiata numbers are not going to be static by any means. They are likely going to drop.

I predict that Asiata will keep the goal line duties based on his size compared to McKinnon, but beyond that, once McKinnon can pass block, he's going to garner more touches. I'm not sure this can even be debated.

 

[shader]

Well, I had Asiata and picked up McKinnon off waivers. I honestly have no idea which one to start on Thursday.

Asiata is the "safer" guy, as it's a pretty sure bet he'll get 70-80 total yards, 2-4 receptions. A TD is also very possible.

McKinnon is the high upside guy, but we still aren't quite sure what the split will be. Will it go back to a 80/20 or 70/30, or has he now beaten the door down into a full 50/50 split.

 

[ourmanflint]

Anyone notice that Minny's run schedule isn't exactly tasty?

Especially look at weeks 13-16.

 

[Dondante]

Well, I had Asiata and picked up McKinnon off waivers. I honestly have no idea which one to start on Thursday.

Asiata is the "safer" guy, as it's a pretty sure bet he'll get 70-80 total yards, 2-4 receptions. A TD is also very possible.

McKinnon is the high upside guy, but we still aren't quite sure what the split will be. Will it go back to a 80/20 or 70/30, or has he now beaten the door down into a full 50/50 split.

Or will the weather and a couple of bum ankles keep the chumps on the field and the studs on the bench without helmets on. Who the hell knows...It's all...classified.

 

[bigbrownbag]

Well, I had Asiata and picked up McKinnon off waivers. I honestly have no idea which one to start on Thursday.

Asiata is the "safer" guy, as it's a pretty sure bet he'll get 70-80 total yards, 2-4 receptions. A TD is also very possible.

McKinnon is the high upside guy, but we still aren't quite sure what the split will be. Will it go back to a 80/20 or 70/30, or has he now beaten the door down into a full 50/50 split.

I think you answered yourself

 

[Ted Mullins]

Well, I had Asiata and picked up McKinnon off waivers. I honestly have no idea which one to start on Thursday.

Asiata is the "safer" guy, as it's a pretty sure bet he'll get 70-80 total yards, 2-4 receptions. A TD is also very possible.

McKinnon is the high upside guy, but we still aren't quite sure what the split will be. Will it go back to a 80/20 or 70/30, or has he now beaten the door down into a full 50/50 split.

Just IMO, but it seems like Asiata has the more clearly carved out role, will get most of the goalline work, and most of the passing down/hurry up work because of his perceived reliability (which seems big vs Packers). That combined with the ankle issue for McKinnon makes Asiata seem like the clear favorite to me for this week.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

So you were thinking that when he projected double digit TDs for a guy that has 3 already (4 if you want to count receptions) he was thinking 40, and not say 10-12?

 

[mnmplayer]

"Factor in the fact that in two of those games, McKinnon saw all the time at the end of decided games, and Asiata's outlook looks more bleak. And that McKinnon is getting more and more snaps every game, those Asiata numbers are not going to be static by any means. They are likely going to drop."

I subscribe to the thinking that to a point of 50% share or less, McKinnon's growth in carries helps Asiata get more points, more goal line looks. Asiata's biggest output came with McKinnon getting 18 carries. When McKinnon only got a few carries and no production Asiata's numbers were lower. I also think Teddy helps Asiata's numbers as well.

Of course ATL was a big part too. I am in a wait and see how this breaks down mode this week as I have better options at RB. I will be watching the Thu game with interest.

 

[RealReactions]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You're right. It's was silly of me to expect him to finish the year with 40 TDs, I think I need to keep my expectations in check. Weak straw man, I never said I expected him to score three TDs a game. You do realize he needs to average .5 TDs a game from here on out to reach my double digit projection, right? The way Teddy, Wright and McKinnon looked, I think this offense will be capable of moving the ball down the field. My projection really isn't far off. I believe I prorated 40-60 all purpose yards, 3 catches and .5 TDs a game. Super attainable.

Let's look at his rushing and receiving numbers. In his three starts this year, he's averaged 49.6 yards per game rushing and 35 yards per game receiving. Those aren't bad numbers by themselves. That's more than 1K yards prorated out over a year. Throw in a TD every other game (based on your .5 TD's a game) and those are decent numbers, but in the games he doesn't get in the endzone are going to be problematic as there should be better options on your team, particularly since this guy's ceiling is relatively low and only increased by the luck of the TD.

Factor in the fact that in two of those games, McKinnon saw all the time at the end of decided games, and Asiata's outlook looks more bleak. And that McKinnon is getting more and more snaps every game, those Asiata numbers are not going to be static by any means. They are likely going to drop.

I predict that Asiata will keep the goal line duties based on his size compared to McKinnon, but beyond that, once McKinnon can pass block, he's going to garner more touches. I'm not sure this can even be debated.

McKinnon owner....↗

 

[RichInOrlando]

Something people (especially us fantasy players) overlook is that team don't want feature backs if they have multiple players with select skills. Workhorse backs get hurt or run down to quickly if they are worked all the time. It's become more common in the NFL for RBBC where there is one speedster/elusive type and a power back.

There are the Lynch/Murray/Forte anomalies that tend to have a firm hold, but many are now running multiple backs. That's why, yes, McKinnon may begin to emerge, but he may be the 'between the 20s' back that plays certain snaps, while Asiata is the goal line specialist that also plays passing downs.

I think this is what we will see in Minny this year. No one will emerge without an injury happening.

In case you were wondering, I own both of them ... and AP.

 

[TheFanatic]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You're right. It's was silly of me to expect him to finish the year with 40 TDs, I think I need to keep my expectations in check. Weak straw man, I never said I expected him to score three TDs a game. You do realize he needs to average .5 TDs a game from here on out to reach my double digit projection, right? The way Teddy, Wright and McKinnon looked, I think this offense will be capable of moving the ball down the field. My projection really isn't far off. I believe I prorated 40-60 all purpose yards, 3 catches and .5 TDs a game. Super attainable.

Let's look at his rushing and receiving numbers. In his three starts this year, he's averaged 49.6 yards per game rushing and 35 yards per game receiving. Those aren't bad numbers by themselves. That's more than 1K yards prorated out over a year. Throw in a TD every other game (based on your .5 TD's a game) and those are decent numbers, but in the games he doesn't get in the endzone are going to be problematic as there should be better options on your team, particularly since this guy's ceiling is relatively low and only increased by the luck of the TD.

Factor in the fact that in two of those games, McKinnon saw all the time at the end of decided games, and Asiata's outlook looks more bleak. And that McKinnon is getting more and more snaps every game, those Asiata numbers are not going to be static by any means. They are likely going to drop.

I predict that Asiata will keep the goal line duties based on his size compared to McKinnon, but beyond that, once McKinnon can pass block, he's going to garner more touches. I'm not sure this can even be debated.

McKinnon owner....↗

Actually, when this thing started I owned both. One in one league and one in the other. I traded Asiata and kept McKinnon.

I kept the guy that is having his snaps increase every week. Do you think that this increase in snaps is only for the short term and that soon the Viking coaches are going to go back to more traditional work horse back in Asiata and his career 3.6 YPC.

Do you think that McKinnon cannot learn to pass protect and thus should not see as many touches?

I keep seeing the Asiata owners trumpeting Asiata's pass pro skills which are really good this year. The problem with the argument I keep seeing over and over on this is that it is assumed the level of proficiency of both players is going to remain constant forever. That is not an absolute and needs to be considered by every Asiata owner.

ETA - Owning one guy or the other does not negate my right to express my opinion on this subject. Just as pointing out ownership on one side of the other does not negate the arguments expressed. It's a weak argument to point out bias and walk away from the debate as if to say you have somehow won it.

 

[iamkoza]

Matt Asiata... the only fantasy player I've ever owned whose stock dropped after scoring 3 TDs.

I know. Over the past 3 weeks he's been the 3rd best RB on a PPG basis, behind only Davis and Murray. It's funny how he's outscored L. Bell, who looks like the next coming of LT in that time span. I have a feeling were going to continue to hear how dreadfully unathletic Asiata, and how it's a crime that McKinnon isn't touching the ball 20 times a game (not in this thread, this thread has evolved) from now until the end of the year. We'll then look back at his 800-1000 all purpose yards, 40-50 catches, double digit TDs and laugh.

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You're right. It's was silly of me to expect him to finish the year with 40 TDs, I think I need to keep my expectations in check. Weak straw man, I never said I expected him to score three TDs a game. You do realize he needs to average .5 TDs a game from here on out to reach my double digit projection, right? The way Teddy, Wright and McKinnon looked, I think this offense will be capable of moving the ball down the field. My projection really isn't far off. I believe I prorated 40-60 all purpose yards, 3 catches and .5 TDs a game. Super attainable.

Let's look at his rushing and receiving numbers. In his three starts this year, he's averaged 49.6 yards per game rushing and 35 yards per game receiving. Those aren't bad numbers by themselves. That's more than 1K yards prorated out over a year. Throw in a TD every other game (based on your .5 TD's a game) and those are decent numbers, but in the games he doesn't get in the endzone are going to be problematic as there should be better options on your team, particularly since this guy's ceiling is relatively low and only increased by the luck of the TD.

Factor in the fact that in two of those games, McKinnon saw all the time at the end of decided games, and Asiata's outlook looks more bleak. And that McKinnon is getting more and more snaps every game, those Asiata numbers are not going to be static by any means. They are likely going to drop.

I predict that Asiata will keep the goal line duties based on his size compared to McKinnon, but beyond that, once McKinnon can pass block, he's going to garner more touches. I'm not sure this can even be debated.

McKinnon owner....↗

Actually, when this thing started I owned both. One in one league and one in the other. I traded Asiata and kept McKinnon.

I kept the guy that is having his snaps increase every week. Do you think that this increase in snaps is only for the short term and that soon the Viking coaches are going to go back to more traditional work horse back in Asiata and his career 3.6 YPC.

Do you think that McKinnon cannot learn to pass protect and thus should not see as many touches?

I keep seeing the Asiata owners trumpeting Asiata's pass pro skills which are really good this year. The problem with the argument I keep seeing over and over on this is that it is assumed the level of proficiency of both players is going to remain constant forever. That is not an absolute and needs to be considered by every Asiata owner.

ETA - Owning one guy or the other does not negate my right to express my opinion on this subject. Just as pointing out ownership on one side of the other does not negate the arguments expressed. It's a weak argument to point out bias and walk away from the debate as if to say you have somehow won it.

the coach said he is a role player 2 days ago..... anyone with eyes can see mckinnon is the superior talent and could very well could garner hype next year that matches ellington's 2014 pre-season hype.. but i think most can concede for the time being asiata is the better fantasy play... for how long? that remains to be seen

most asiata owners are playing with house money at this point.... i think anyone trying to plug a rb2 hole with either player for ROS is asking a lot of the situation

 

[T with T]

is Mckinnon worth the start??? I have a weird feeling he will have 100 plus and a td Anyone with me? Im debating putting him in over Cooks in a ppr league can't make up my mind. If I start him he will score 2 If I bench him in this league I swear he will have 20. It is that type of season. 0-4 need a win This is not good love the guys upside.

 

[Henry Ford]

Are we just all discounting the reports that Mckinnon's been limited this week with an ankle injury? Just checking.

 

[SameSongNDance]

Are we just all discounting the reports that Mckinnon's been limited this week with an ankle injury? Just checking.

I'm reading he's probable.

 

[mrbigg]

On one hand, bad run defense

On another hand, short week, weak ankle, heavy precipitation where you could mess up your ankle even more, it's scary to start him.

 

[buck naked]

ETA - Owning one guy or the other does not negate my right to express my opinion on this subject. Just as pointing out ownership on one side of the other does not negate the arguments expressed. It's a weak argument to point out bias and walk away from the debate as if to say you have somehow won it.

It's not even an argument - its just stupid and weak, period.

 

[DropKick]

Asiata's stats are extremely over inflated due to the TD's. Three TD games are very much an anomaly. I mean, if you are counting on that every game, then by all means keep starting him. But pretty soon, we're going to see that the guy is good at getting a couple of yards near the goal line, or the scrimmage line in all reality, but if he had to score from the three, he'd have a hard time getting there. TD's are a fickle beast, not a guarantee. TY Hilton is going to have a great year in terms of yardage, but has no TD's, on a team with a QB on pace to hit 52 TD's this year.

You can make the same argument for long runs....

You might have a point if McKinnon had a bunch of short or even negative yardage runs and a single long run made the average look good. However, quite the opposite, some runs later in the game (to run the clock out) actually lowered his average as the defense knew exactly what was coming.

 

[RichInOrlando]

The Asiata debate will always be "he's slow and what if they aren't scoring TDs" no matter how good he plays. The fact of the matter is that he is scoring when given the chance and helping move the ball, convert third downs and convert goal line pushes.

He's not gonna blow our socks off. He won't dazzle on the screen. He's basically everything we thought Gerhart was going to be. Yet many saw Gerhart as a decent RB 2-3 based on opportunity and workload.

Seems like Asiata is in the same boat now, but he's making results. Can McKinnon supplant him? Maybe, who knows. But right now, Asiata is earning play time with results. I'll start that guy all week long over what McKinnon can be, but has yet to be given a chance to be.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I kept the guy that is having his snaps increase every week.

McKinnon's offensive snap counts decreased from Week 2 to Week 3. But don't let the facts get in your way.

 

[Vicktimized]

Zimmer basically told everyone what the plan is for the time being. McKinnon's not an every-down back yet; yet he's gonna see work because Asiata can't scare anyone by running the ball. Asiata's a nice bodyguard for Bridgewater to ward off blitzers. They're both going to play unless McKinnon shows he's a really quick study in the passing game. I think you're going to see something similar to Ellington/Mendenhall last season ... the former was a much more productive player on his touches but the latter kept the QB clean.

I DO think McKinnon will see more work, sooner, than Ellington because of better size and a better offensive line in Minn than Ari '13. But Asiata isn't likely to be shoved onto the bench. They can both have value, albeit it'll be more in the "flex play/RB 2 in a strong matchup" unless one goes down.

 

[Vicktimized]

I had to go back and check on this.

On that fantastic 55-yard run the line destroyed the falcs d-line, & Felton, one of the league's best FBs, obliterated the LB creating a huge hole for McKinnon.

Vikings Rewind: Jerick McKinnon's 55-yard runhe situation: Up 14-7 with 13:07 left in the second quarter, the Vikings start their third offensive series at their own 8. They hand the ball off to rookie running back Jerick McKinnon.

The reason: The Vikings are pinned deep in their own end zone and need some room to work with. They design a draw play in this situation, hoping it’ll do the trick.

The result: McKinnon breaks off a career-long 55-yard run on his first carry to the Falcons 37 to put the Vikings in scoring position.

“I was messing with him a little bit,” fullback Jerome Felton said. “I was wondering when I was going to see it, so it’s good to finally see. It’s all good to talk about his speed and everything else, buy you’ve got to show it on Sundays. And he did that.”

The Vikings are lined up in an offset “I” formation, with Felton lined up to the right of rookie quarterback Teddy Bridgewater, in a 21 personnel (two backs and one tight end). It’d be considered “strong right” because of Felton’s alignment and tight end Rhett Ellison also lined up on the right side of the line of scrimmage. With McKinnon (circled in yellow) in the backfield, the Falcons stack the box with six near the line of scrimmage. They’re sensing run with the Vikings personnel.

They’re fooled. Well, at least initially they’re tricked. Bridgewater immediately sets his feet after receiving the snap and looks to wide receiver Greg Jennings (circled in yellow), who has about eight yards of separation from safety Dwight Lowery (circled in red) in the slot. Bridgewater pump fakes to Jennings, causing the Falcons to believe it’s a pass play.

Instead, it’s a delayed “iso draw” with McKinnon receiving the hand off after Bridgewater sells the pump fake. The Vikings did a great job blocking, particularly Felton (circled in yellow on the left) and center John Sullivan (circled in yellow on the right). They clear the entire “A” gap for McKinnon by sealing linebackers Joplo Bartu and Paul Worrilow.

“You want to fool the defense and have the linebackers think we’re about to pass the ball with the defensive line going to their pass rush techniques,” Felton said. “That usually opens up a big hole.”

Here’s another angle on how great the blocking was all around on that play by the offensive line, Ellison and Felton. McKinnon wisely opts to cut left, with two unblocked defenders to his right and Jennings and wide receiver Cordarrelle Patterson to his left.

What goes unnoticed on this play is McKinnon’s patience before he even receives the hand off.

“We talked about it all week just being patient and letting the quarterback bring the ball to him,” Felton said. “He did a good job of that and that allows them to get in their pass rush stuff with the linebackers thinking it’s pass. That was important to have patience there and you can see he’s really developed as a runner Sunday.”

After McKinnon cuts left, his eyes must’ve lit up from all the open space he had. Jennings had a nice block on Lowery to allow McKinnon to bounce outside, then Patterson (circled in yellow) also had a good block down field to allow for more yards on the explosive play.

“I just followed Jerome, and he had a great block – a knockdown as a matter of fact – on the ‘Mike,’” McKinnon said. “I made a cut off of him just ran in space.”

Felton’s block was definitely the most notable on that play, allowing McKinnon to play off the fullback. That first carry set up a breakout performance for McKinnon, who had 18 carries for 135 yards. In the first three games, the rookie had just five carries for seven yards.

“Usually if you’re downhill, the linebacker is going to be downhill,” Felton said. “But if you take a draw set, they’re think you’re about to release into the flat. It kind of keeps them off base and on their heels, and they really don’t know what to expect. I like it. It’s one of my favorite plays, so I’m glad we got that run.”

http://blog.startribune.com/sports/access-vikings/vikings-rewind-jerick-mckinnons-55-yard-run

Something people keep missing about all this pass pro talk is that the Vikes have Jerome Felton, one of the best run and pass blocking FBs in the league. If Felton & McKinnon are both in there they can do anything.

McKinnon also has 8 targets in 2 games so far.

Although, despite what I stated above, this is a good observation and one I didn't consider. Arians is a 3-wide coach so maybe this is different from that example.

 

[Biabreakable]

While I agree Jerome Felton or Rhett Ellison can be asked to help pick up pass protection assignments (and Ellison does a lot) Jerome Felton is not very often in the game. Felton had 11 offensive snaps against the Falcons. He made a big impact with his blocks with so few opportunities.

That said I have not really seen Jerick McKinnon do poorly in pass protection despite how many times people have tried to make that point.

Here is an related article I found pretty amusing.

Jerick McKinnon and Matt Asiata Need to Teach Clay Matthews Their Names

 

[Henry Ford]

While I agree Jerome Felton or Rhett Ellison can be asked to help pick up pass protection assignments (and Ellison does a lot) Jerome Felton is not very often in the game. Felton had 11 offensive snaps against the Falcons. He made a big impact with his blocks with so few opportunities.

That said I have not really seen Jerick McKinnon do poorly in pass protection despite how many times people have tried to make that point.

Here is an related article I found pretty amusing.

Jerick McKinnon and Matt Asiata Need to Teach Clay Matthews Their Names

McKinnon just hasn't had enough snaps to really see him succeed or fail in pass pro. However, that usually means a guy is failing in practice.

 

[Dondante]

So for fantasy purposes is he a hold (McKinnon)?

 

[SameSongNDance]

While I agree Jerome Felton or Rhett Ellison can be asked to help pick up pass protection assignments (and Ellison does a lot) Jerome Felton is not very often in the game. Felton had 11 offensive snaps against the Falcons. He made a big impact with his blocks with so few opportunities.

That said I have not really seen Jerick McKinnon do poorly in pass protection despite how many times people have tried to make that point.

Here is an related article I found pretty amusing.

Jerick McKinnon and Matt Asiata Need to Teach Clay Matthews Their Names

"They've got that one guy who can run really hard." That has to be the greatest compliment I've heard given to Asiata since this chaos started three weeks ago.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

While I agree Jerome Felton or Rhett Ellison can be asked to help pick up pass protection assignments (and Ellison does a lot) Jerome Felton is not very often in the game. Felton had 11 offensive snaps against the Falcons. He made a big impact with his blocks with so few opportunities.

That said I have not really seen Jerick McKinnon do poorly in pass protection despite how many times people have tried to make that point.

Here is an related article I found pretty amusing.

Jerick McKinnon and Matt Asiata Need to Teach Clay Matthews Their Names

"They've got that one guy who can run really hard." That has to be the greatest compliment I've heard given to Asiata since this chaos started three weeks ago.

Reminds me of Celtics broadcaster Johnny Most calling an exhibition game against Yugoslavia.

 

[mnmplayer]

"He's basically everything we thought Gerhart was going to be."

That about sums it up Asiata minus the pre-season hype/analysis/thoughts/rankings that went along with ranking Gerhart an RB2. It takes a while for the community to accept change. I really want McKinnon to take all the snaps, but this is really what we all wanted Gerhart to be for Jax scoring wise.

 

[ATSS_0100]

Bout to start them both this week over Bradshaw, vereen, joique....

 

[FUBAR]

Anyone trade him recently. Trying to gauge trade value.

Was about to ask the same question about mckinnon.

One owner is offering moreno and vjax for Martin and mckinnon. I rejected but am considering a counter. Highly inclined to keep mckinnon unless the offer were too good to pass and netted a player i like long term.

Also considering starting mckinnon over Martin.

 

[Ignoramus]

I have a story about Asiata...

 

[SameSongNDance]

What does Ponder starting do to Asiata and McKinnon? More but much less potent reps?

 

[iamkoza]

What does Ponder starting do to Asiata and McKinnon? More but much less potent reps?

as an amateur DC.... if i were green bay i'd load up the box with at least 8 and make christian ponder beat me with medium to deep passes.... try to stuff the run game and the short pass screen game.... but that would be my plan regardless for who their starting QB was... who knows though, GB was atroicous against the run last week

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What does Ponder starting do to Asiata and McKinnon? More but much less potent reps?

as an amateur DC.... if i were green bay i'd load up the box with at least 8 and make christian ponder beat me with medium to deep passes.... try to stuff the run game and the short pass screen game.... but that would be my plan regardless for who their starting QB was... who knows though, GB was atroicous against the run last week

Maybe more Wright tonight in other words?

 

[steelwind]

Here's an interesting stat between Asiata and an anonymous RB.

Matt Asiata last three games

13 rush 36 yards 2.8 avg

12 rush 35 yards 2.9 avg

20 rush 78 yards 3.9 avg

Total 3 game average: 3.2 yards and 3 total TDs

Anonymous RB for comparison

14 rush 48 yards 3.4 avg

27 rush 90 yards 3.3 avg

14 rush 47 yards 3.4 avg

Total 3 game average: 3.3 yards and 3 total TDs

The anonymous RB is...

Gio Bernard. We keep making fun of Asiata. Stats are stats no matter where or how they come from.