Asiata vs. McKinnon (2 Viewers)

[PhantomJB]

Pass protection isn't overrated when talking about rookies, but it is something people like to just make statements about without any real basis. Most people are just assuming that Aaiata is miles ahead of McKinnon in all these aspects of playing RB that aren't do do with athletic skill and running the football, or they assume that all rookies are hopeless in pass protection and anyone who isn't a rookie is good at it.

The point is you don't have to be Ahmad Bradshaw in pass protection to get playing time in the NFL - if you are competent, that can be enough. It's possible that McKinnon is getting there and isn't far behind Asiata at all. No one posting on here really knows. There are also

plays and situations where you can put a guy like McKinnon on the field that don't require those skills. I guess people are always concerned that a guy like McKinnon can't be an "every down" back, but how many of those are there anyway?

As far as McKinnon goes, I don't know what evidence there is to say he's brutal in pass protection. With some rookies, it's all you hear about initially (Montee Ball, Tre Mason), with others, fantasy owners don't seem to care whether they are good or bad at it (I don't recall seeing threads about Gio, Lacy or Doug Martin and their pass protection), and they get playing time anyway. It's not the same for every rookie and for all we know, Asiata won't have any glaring advantages over McKinnon in about a month.

Well, I guess there's the running backs coach Kirby Wilson making comments around draft time.

If the Vikings intend to turn McKinnon into their version of Sproles ... they'll have to teach him plenty of new things. The first item on that list, Wilson said, would be pass protection

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/66020/vikings-have-big-hopes-for-mckinnon

Then there's McKinnon himself a few months ago.

Vikings rookie RB Jerick McKinnon admits that he needs to improve as a pass blocker. “The only thing that’s a little bit different is the pass protection," McKinnon said. "I really hadn’t had any technique on it or been coached on it.

http://www.draftsharks.com/sharkbites/32732/mckinnon-needs-to-work-on-pass-protection

And lastly perhaps some notes from Day 3 of training camp give a few more hints.

Jerick McKinnon struggled to stop Anthony Barr off the edge and Kirby Wilson really was trying to enhance his blocking technique. This was a concern when the Vikings drafted McKinnon and is certainly an area he will need to improve upon.

https://www.facebook.com/MinnesotaVikingsFanPage/posts/731557733573333?fref=nf

So the concerns some have in this thread aren't totally unfounded.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

IMHO McKinnon won't get a lot of touches because of Norv Turner. While he isn't the head coach, he's the OC and if you followed Norv Turner over the years, he doesn't trust rookies, he plays the veterans. That's my two cents.

Wait.

Frank Gore, 2006. He wasn't a rookie but his use went way up in his 2nd year under Norv. That was one of the classic FF draft targets of all time.

Ryan Mathews - rookie, 2010, IIRC the only reason he didn't get used more was injuries.

Ladanian Tomlinson - rookie, 2001, one of the greatest FF rookie seasons of all time.

Emmitt Smith - 2nd year, 1991, one of the greatest RB campaigns of all time.

Getting past that, think of the incredible FF seasons to come out of Turner backs - Ricky Williams 2002, Gore 2006, Tomlinson 2001 and 2007-08, Smith 1991-92, Terry Allen and Stephen Davis in the 90s (where Norv basically generated big seasons for those guys out his rear pocket).

The Peterson saga really flummoxes up this whole thing because even Norv and the Vikes could not have possibly planned for all this. Also Asiata isn't like Stephen Davis, Lamont Jordan or Tomlinson, he was an UDFA pulled off the practice squad last year when things got hairy. He's not like some established vet. But the Vikes might have been planning for next year without AP by drafting McKinnon in the 3rd, so maybe this just moves up the schedule a bit.

Also like Peterson, see Tomlinson, Barlow, Lamar Smith and Trent Richardson before, Norv has simply switched over from established backs to go with a new system before. He's been here before. The only exception where this did not work out (Mathews, Gore, Williams) was Cleveland with McGahee (which is what we're essentially looking at with Asiata in terms of ypc) but the Browns had absolutely zero in the cupboard, yet still also they traded for and signed Dion Lewis, Edwin Baker, Fozzy Whitaker and Bobby Rainey, they even started Baker and Ogbonnaya, it's not like Norv wanted to be stuck with what he had.

Lots of ways to look at this.

 

[DropKick]

Pass protection isn't overrated when talking about rookies, but it is something people like to just make statements about without any real basis. Most people are just assuming that Aaiata is miles ahead of McKinnon in all these aspects of playing RB that aren't do do with athletic skill and running the football, or they assume that all rookies are hopeless in pass protection and anyone who isn't a rookie is good at it.

The point is you don't have to be Ahmad Bradshaw in pass protection to get playing time in the NFL - if you are competent, that can be enough. It's possible that McKinnon is getting there and isn't far behind Asiata at all. No one posting on here really knows. There are also

plays and situations where you can put a guy like McKinnon on the field that don't require those skills. I guess people are always concerned that a guy like McKinnon can't be an "every down" back, but how many of those are there anyway?

As far as McKinnon goes, I don't know what evidence there is to say he's brutal in pass protection. With some rookies, it's all you hear about initially (Montee Ball, Tre Mason), with others, fantasy owners don't seem to care whether they are good or bad at it (I don't recall seeing threads about Gio, Lacy or Doug Martin and their pass protection), and they get playing time anyway. It's not the same for every rookie and for all we know, Asiata won't have any glaring advantages over McKinnon in about a month.

Well, I guess there's the running backs coach Kirby Wilson making comments around draft time.

If the Vikings intend to turn McKinnon into their version of Sproles ... they'll have to teach him plenty of new things. The first item on that list, Wilson said, would be pass protection

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/66020/vikings-have-big-hopes-for-mckinnon

Then there's McKinnon himself a few months ago.

Vikings rookie RB Jerick McKinnon admits that he needs to improve as a pass blocker. “The only thing that’s a little bit different is the pass protection," McKinnon said. "I really hadn’t had any technique on it or been coached on it.

http://www.draftsharks.com/sharkbites/32732/mckinnon-needs-to-work-on-pass-protection

And lastly perhaps some notes from Day 3 of training camp give a few more hints.

Jerick McKinnon struggled to stop Anthony Barr off the edge and Kirby Wilson really was trying to enhance his blocking technique. This was a concern when the Vikings drafted McKinnon and is certainly an area he will need to improve upon.

https://www.facebook.com/MinnesotaVikingsFanPage/posts/731557733573333?fref=nf

So the concerns some have in this thread aren't totally unfounded.

He is a rookie who was a converted QB in college. Of course there are questions about pass protection and there would be plenty around the draft and early in his rookie reason. How well and how fast he can develop those skills remains to be seen. Assuming he can never develop because he lacks the skills now is irrational - as is assuming he will succeed on athleticism alone.

I would assume the position is Asiata's to lose for the time being.

 

[I Love Your Fantasy Team]

But McKinnon has freakish workouts.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It occures to me reading through this thread again that no one has mentioned Jerome Felton. He's a part of that offense designed to blow open holes for AP, Felton is one of the best blocking backs in the league. Now is he in there a good bit for MIN as they run 2 back sets for the AP offense, or not? Because if he is that obviates a lot of the need for McKinnon doing pass protection. Not all offenses are created alike, comparing MIN to past NYG teams or other RBs who could not get time because of blocking skills may not fit where those offenses did not carry blocking FBs like Felton.

 

[cvnpoka]

dodds just loves asaita. he is ranked 18th in ffpc scoring. ppr with 1.5 te ppr. thats above andre johnson, gates, marshall, lacy and quite a few others.

 

[SameSongNDance]

I'll preface this with, the answer is likely neither and I can see MIN signing a FA soon. Possibly BGE if he's healthy enough.

So, this week played out almost exactly like last week. I don't have the snaps available to me yet but Asiata out touched McKinnon 15:3. Asiata looked same, somehow decent after catching the ball in space (this is actually quite astonishing) and the epitome of a plodder when running the ball in between the tackles. Someone posted an analysis of Asiata in this thread that mentions how he tends to fall forward after initial contact, and plays much smaller than his size suggests. This indeed happens all too often. On occasion he will lower his pads and push an opposing defender a couple yards but most of the time he goes down (at least he falls forward) right after contact. I didn't see enough of McKinnon to pass judgement either way.

MIN has again suffered another huge loss (Rudolph will be sidelined for ~6 weeks after knee surgery). I don't consider Cassel a huge loss and I wonder what the addition of Teddy means to this backfield. Is it possible that Teddy will end up opening more running lanes as teams have to respect his scrambling ability? Also, it's common for rookies QBs to lean on TEs as safety valves, is it possible Asiata picks up even more looks in the pass game? I do remember Teddy missing Asiata on several targets yesterday and it's likely something they'll work on during practice.

 

[chinawildman]

I'll preface this with, the answer is likely neither and I can see MIN signing a FA soon. Possibly BGE if he's healthy enough.

So, this week played out almost exactly like last week. I don't have the snaps available to me yet but Asiata out touched McKinnon 15:3. Asiata looked same, somehow decent after catching the ball in space (this is actually quite astonishing) and the epitome of a plodder when running the ball in between the tackles. Someone posted an analysis of Asiata in this thread that mentions how he tends to fall forward after initial contact, and plays much smaller than his size suggests. This indeed happens all too often. On occasion he will lower his pads and push an opposing defender a couple yards but most of the time he goes down (at least he falls forward) right after contact. I didn't see enough of McKinnon to pass judgement either way.

MIN has again suffered another huge loss (Rudolph will be sidelined for ~6 weeks after knee surgery). I don't consider Cassel a huge loss and I wonder what the addition of Teddy means to this backfield. Is it possible that Teddy will end up opening more running lanes as teams have to respect his scrambling ability? Also, it's common for rookies QBs to lean on TEs as safety valves, is it possible Asiata picks up even more looks in the pass game? I do remember Teddy missing Asiata on several targets yesterday and it's likely something they'll work on during practice.

I think both of these will prove to be true. They will likely implement some form of read/option like everyone else in the league, which could be beneficial to Asiata. If I'm the Vikings I try to get McKinnon on the field not as a traditional RB but as an H back and run misdirection with him and Patterson. Either way I do see more dumpoffs for Asiata.

 

[Gvindy]

I'll preface this with, the answer is likely neither and I can see MIN signing a FA soon. Possibly BGE if he's healthy enough.

So, this week played out almost exactly like last week. I don't have the snaps available to me yet but Asiata out touched McKinnon 15:3. Asiata looked same, somehow decent after catching the ball in space (this is actually quite astonishing) and the epitome of a plodder when running the ball in between the tackles. Someone posted an analysis of Asiata in this thread that mentions how he tends to fall forward after initial contact, and plays much smaller than his size suggests. This indeed happens all too often. On occasion he will lower his pads and push an opposing defender a couple yards but most of the time he goes down (at least he falls forward) right after contact. I didn't see enough of McKinnon to pass judgement either way.

MIN has again suffered another huge loss (Rudolph will be sidelined for ~6 weeks after knee surgery). I don't consider Cassel a huge loss and I wonder what the addition of Teddy means to this backfield. Is it possible that Teddy will end up opening more running lanes as teams have to respect his scrambling ability? Also, it's common for rookies QBs to lean on TEs as safety valves, is it possible Asiata picks up even more looks in the pass game? I do remember Teddy missing Asiata on several targets yesterday and it's likely something they'll work on during practice.

I think both of these will prove to be true. They will likely implement some form of read/option like everyone else in the league, which could be beneficial to Asiata. If I'm the Vikings I try to get McKinnon on the field not as a traditional RB but as an H back and run misdirection with him and Patterson. Either way I do see more dumpoffs for Asiata.

This Marqueis Gray guy has a QB background as well. Maybe they get him involved, also an H-Back type of guy Norv brought from CLE. I think they picked up Charles Johnson from CLE also. I just see the wheels spinning in Norvs head right now. It will be interesting to see what he can do. Teddy is his guy. With enough misdirection and options I think Norv can turn Asiata or McKinnon into something this year after all.

 

[93_Confirmed]

Anyone notice how Rotoworld goes out of their way to trash Asiata in just about every article? What's the deal with all the hate over there? It's very strange.

From their Morning After article today:

LeSean McCoy's bounce back from his quiet first two weeks. McCoy rushed 19 times for 22 yards. It was an Asiata-esque performance,...

Donald Brown rushed 31 times … for 62 yards. That’s taking Asiata-ing to a whole new level. He should tick that YPC up in Week 4 against the Jaguars’ barely-there defense.

 

[Gvindy]

Anyone notice how Rotoworld goes out of their way to trash Asiata in just about every article? What's the deal with all the hate over there? It's very strange.

From their Morning After article today:

LeSean McCoy's bounce back from his quiet first two weeks. McCoy rushed 19 times for 22 yards. It was an Asiata-esque performance,...

Donald Brown rushed 31 times for 62 yards. Thats taking Asiata-ing to a whole new level. He should tick that YPC up in Week 4 against the Jaguars barely-there defense.

That is hilarious

Asiata is just the latest plodder out there right now and I suppose he's top of mind.

 

[biju]

Anyone notice how Rotoworld goes out of their way to trash Asiata in just about every article? What's the deal with all the hate over there? It's very strange.

From their Morning After article today:

LeSean McCoy's bounce back from his quiet first two weeks. McCoy rushed 19 times for 22 yards. It was an Asiata-esque performance,...

Donald Brown rushed 31 times … for 62 yards. That’s taking Asiata-ing to a whole new level. He should tick that YPC up in Week 4 against the Jaguars’ barely-there defense.

Rotoworld takes that stance against any player who is holding up the ascension of any striking athlete. For example, the difference in how they talk about Christine Michael and Robert Turbin. It appears Rotoworld is about to have a very pro-McKinnon stance if they haven't done so already.

 

[chinawildman]

Anyone notice how Rotoworld goes out of their way to trash Asiata in just about every article? What's the deal with all the hate over there? It's very strange.

From their Morning After article today:

LeSean McCoy's bounce back from his quiet first two weeks. McCoy rushed 19 times for 22 yards. It was an Asiata-esque performance,...

Donald Brown rushed 31 times … for 62 yards. That’s taking Asiata-ing to a whole new level. He should tick that YPC up in Week 4 against the Jaguars’ barely-there defense.

Rotoworld takes that stance against any player who is holding up the ascension of any striking athlete. For example, the difference in how they talk about Christine Michael and Robert Turbin. It appears Rotoworld is about to have a very pro-McKinnon stance if they haven't done so already.

This. For the RW staff, "explosiveness" trumps all. The updates they have are great, but the analysis... well, it's no better than say, a buncha dudes on a message board.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Like when Torrey Smith gets outplayed by Steve Smith 3 straight weeks........it's got to be something wrong with Kubiak's offense with the 2-1 Ravens.

 

[ponchsox]

McKinnon rips off a 55 yard run.

 

[SameSongNDance]

McKinnon looked like he had infinite gears right there.

 

[flapgreen]

Well I think most of us left McKinnon on the bench

 

[SameSongNDance]

Well I think most of us left McKinnon on the bench

Best ball

 

[Henry Ford]

Well I think most of us left McKinnon on the bench

Starting Asiata instead is paying off.

 

[valhallan]

Well I think most of us left McKinnon on the bench

Had to start him actually. That TD would've been amazing.

 

[flapgreen]

Hope McKinnon keeps getting more carries. Asiata is so slow

 

[steveski]

As an Asiata owner I'm glad the changing of the guard came in a game where Asiata still gets 2 TDs and doesn't ruin my week.

Probably the last time I start Asiata though.

 

[flapgreen]

Looks like maybe McKinnon and Bridgewater could have a connection.

 

[dblock05]

As an Asiata owner I'm glad the changing of the guard came in a game where Asiata still gets 2 TDs and doesn't ruin my week.

Probably the last time I start Asiata though.

Agreed. Probably won't have the chance to pick up McKinnon either.

It was good while it lasted...

 

[cvnpoka]

Well I think most of us left McKinnon on the bench

Had to start him actually. That TD would've been amazing.

i had the option to start him or cut him and i chose wrong. very upset with my decision.

 

[steveski]

As an Asiata owner I'm glad the changing of the guard came in a game where Asiata still gets 2 TDs and doesn't ruin my week.

Probably the last time I start Asiata though.

Agreed. Probably won't have the chance to pick up McKinnon either.

It was good while it lasted...

Yeah can't complain about the production we got from him considering he's probably one of the least talented starting RBs in the league.

 

[RushHour]

Wish McKinnon had flashed anything at all prior to this to give me a reason to keep him. Had to let him go in bye week crunch.

 

[towney]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

 

[SameSongNDance]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

No but he's 100% worth rostering if he's going to see 10-15 touches a games.

 

[rascal]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

yeah, I'm still questioning that as well

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

I don't expect Asiata to ever completely go away. (He's a solid pass pro guy, between tackles guy and will continue to see goalline opportunities)

McKinnon's role is and will grow. He's got to clean up in pass pro. Good for Vikings he's emerging. Probably not so much for Asiata/McKinnon owners (if you expect one to hog all the touches)

He showed great open field running on his big run. But anyone would have had a big run with that hole (Vikes FB absolutely blew up the Falcon backer) so I wouldn't get too carried away with it. (I'm sure you can find the highlight of the run via NFL.com)

 

[SameSongNDance]

Oh yeah, Asiata's stock took a huge hit here. Still, I find it kind of funny that he's essentially been a RB1 in PPR over the past 3 weeks. Experts kept on ragging on him and couldn't look past his athleticism but opportunity is opportunity. He's did his job.

 

[towney]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

I don't expect Asiata to ever completely go away. (He's a solid pass pro guy, between tackles guy and will continue to see goalline opportunities)

McKinnon's role is and will grow. He's got to clean up in pass pro. Good for Vikings he's emerging. Probably not so much for Asiata/McKinnon owners (if you expect one to hog all the touches)

Ya, not sure if rostering him is good especially in a time share. As a Peterson owner with Ridley and Joique Bell as the only RB's I have I just might have to.

 

[John Bender]

They seem to be trading series at this point.

I'm assuming this is what we should expect for the foreseeable future

 

[SameSongNDance]

How many RBs have multiple 3+ rushing TD games I wonder. Asiata has 2 in 5 games now.

 

[flapgreen]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

Even without the big run, he's still averaging more ypc. Let's hope Frazier has enough sense to keep getting him involved.

 

[Henry Ford]

4th and goal down by 1, carry goes to Asiata. Touchdown. Still has a job, I think.

 

[John Bender]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

Even without the big run, he's still averaging more ypc. Let's hope Frazier has enough sense to keep getting him involved.

He has one huge run through a hole you could drive a truck through. Do you have the game on? I'm not being a smart ###, but without that run, he's been good...but certainly no better than Asiata.

 

[Jimbo Slice]

They are clearly very different backs. But I think McKinnon showed today that he deserves more touches. Asiata goal line and pass pro guy. McKinnon should start eating into the touches more, he won't take over but he'll steal some more touches. Simple as that

 

[BobbyLayne]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

Even without the big run, he's still averaging more ypc. Let's hope Frazier has enough sense to keep getting him involved.

 

[flapgreen]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

Even without the big run, he's still averaging more ypc. Let's hope Frazier has enough sense to keep getting him involved.

Sorry. Had my mind on him for some reason.

 

[flapgreen]

They are clearly very different backs. But I think McKinnon showed today that he deserves more touches. Asiata goal line and pass pro guy. McKinnon should start eating into the touches more, he won't take over but he'll steal some more touches. Simple as that

Got all the touches on that drive.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

McKinnon closing it out -interesting

 

[flapgreen]

Sweet!

 

[Texican]

McKinnon closing it out -interesting

very

 

[thekidd2009]

im shipping asiata off asap and trying to get mckinnon off waivers...Asiata needs a ton of volume to be relevant in fantatsy imo. With mckinnon taking away touches mckinnon is they guy to own going forward

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

If it wasn't for his one big run his yard totals would be less then Asiata's. Anyone really thing McKinnon will take over the RB1 slot in MN? He's still on our WW.

Even without the big run, he's still averaging more ypc. Let's hope Frazier has enough sense to keep getting him involved.

He has one huge run through a hole you could drive a truck through. Do you have the game on? I'm not being a smart ###, but without that run, he's been good...but certainly no better than Asiata.

Yeah let's take away the thing he does that Asiata can't do. Makes sense to me.

 

[Avery]

McKinnon closing it out -interesting

very

People see what they want to see. Like the "writers" at Rotoworld, many want to see the dynamic player "take the job", and they only see the evidence that supports that.

People who want McKinnon to win the job, will see him "closing out the game" and "interesting". In other cases, when the game is decided, the second running back coming in would be evidence that he is second in the pecking order.

I dont see any "changing of the guard" here.

I expect Asiata to continue to get the goal line work, and McKinnon to get carries as well. Real NFL is more complicated than fantasy and neither player is running away with he job. They will both get work and I don't think McKinnon did anything to "take the job" from McKinnon. It was a good day for all of the Vikings offense.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Can you imaGine what petdrson wodbe doinv rjght now?

 

[Stealthycat]

if you have Asiata - get McKinnon

if you have McKinnon, get Asiata

one will get dinged, and the other will be a MONSTER