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Beware of Contempt (1 Viewer)

I have been called a troll a number of times here because I stand behind my opinion.  I must agree with somebody or.....you're trolling.....huh?  I don't play that immature BS,  I just stand tall when I believe something and all my beliefs are backed with a TON of experience.

I was even suspended a few days for,......trolling.....????????? 

Who as ever seen this on the internet?

poster....my favorite color is red

poster2....blue is better.

poster....no it's not.

poster2....yes it is.

poster...you know what, you're right and I;m wrong.

I;ve never seen that, has anyone?  The big thing is..........I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG......and we all now it.

 
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furleybaby said:
Where are we on white supremacists? Worthy of contempt still?
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you  can only have contempt for white supremacy.   white supremacists are just people too, yo.  they have feelings too, and so do the "not white supremacists" that defend them.  why so judgmental?  

 
The racist thing is what gets me.  Yes we have the different races, that is a reality.  We are not the same, just a fact.  Why we must play silly games about it....???

 
ZenoRazon said:
The racist thing is what gets me.  Yes we have the different races, that is a reality.  We are not the same, just a fact.  Why we must play silly games about it....???
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like enslaving people with different skin color?   that was super silly.

 
ZenoRazon said:
That's not what was said, slavery was not the fault of Africans at all.
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oh, so it would have happened without other black people?  which non-African black people are to blame for slavery?

 
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ZenoRazon said:
fish,  let's not do this, ok guy? You know the story.
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I know justifications for racism, if that's what you're getting at.   

Who is responsible for slavery, exactly?  So far you're at non-African black people.  I'm interested to see how deep you'd like to dig this hole.

 
-fish- said:
I know justifications for racism, if that's what you're getting at.   

Who is responsible for slavery, exactly?  So far you're at non-African black people.  I'm interested to see how deep you'd like to dig this hole.
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We all know the history of the slave trade, nothing new there or any holes being dug.

 
-fish- said:
so who, in your opinion, is responsible for slavery?  you said it's black people, but not Africans.   Be specific.
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It has nothing to do with anyones opinions, are you saying you don't don't know the origins of how slavery came about?

 
ZenoRazon said:
It has nothing to do with anyones opinions, are you saying you don't don't know the origins of how slavery came about?
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you specifically stated  that without black people, there would have been no slavery.   you also said it was not the fault of Africans.   what non-African black people caused slavery?  I'm really interested in your view of this, since it goes directly to the point of this thread.   do you have an answer?   because if you don't, that's fine too.   

 
-fish- said:
you specifically stated  that without black people, there would have been no slavery.   you also said it was not the fault of Africans.   what non-African black people caused slavery?  I'm really interested in your view of this, since it goes directly to the point of this thread.   do you have an answer?   because if you don't, that's fine too.   
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This is what I was talking about, I assumed it was real obvious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/africa_article_01.shtml

 
Yes, I'm aware of how white Europeans kidnapped and enslaved Africans.  I'm aware that some African tribal leaders profited by helping white Europeans enslave Africans with whom they had tribal conflicts.   That certainly doesn't justify slavery, nor does it place the responsibility for slavery on "black people" as you claim.  You specifically said that slavery "would not have happened without other black people", and you said this:

ZenoRazon said:
That's not what was said, slavery was not the fault of Africans at all.
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-fish- said:
Yes, I'm aware of how white Europeans kidnapped and enslaved Africans.  I'm aware that some African tribal leaders profited by helping white Europeans enslave Africans with whom they had tribal conflicts.   That certainly doesn't justify slavery, nor does it place the responsibility for slavery on "black people" as you claim.  You specifically said that slavery "would not have happened without other black people", and you said this:
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This what I was referring to.....

Traditional African rulers whose ancestors collaborated with European and Arab slave traders should follow Britain and the United States by publicly saying sorry, according to human rights organisations.

The Civil Rights Congress of Nigeria has written to tribal chiefs saying: "We cannot continue to blame the white men, as Africans, particularly the traditional rulers, are not blameless."

The appeal has reopened a sensitive debate over the part some chiefs played in helping to capture their fellow Africans and sell them into bondage as part of the transatlantic slave trade.

The congress argued that the ancestors of the chiefs had helped to raid and kidnap defenceless communities and traded them to Europeans. They should now apologise to "put a final seal to the history of slave trade",

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Real obvious without help from the more powerful African tribes things would have been a lot different.

 
This is why we can't separate posts and posters.  You can't allow this argument to go unchallenged without attributing it to the person that posted it.  Some may want to justify it as ignorant, or a product of his upbringing, but that would just be a defense of racism itself.   There's a reason Jimmy the Greek got fired for something that wasn't one tenth as racist as this.   It's just not acceptable, and it's worthy of contempt.

 
ZenoRazon said:
This what I was referring to.....

Traditional African rulers whose ancestors collaborated with European and Arab slave traders should follow Britain and the United States by publicly saying sorry, according to human rights organisations.

The Civil Rights Congress of Nigeria has written to tribal chiefs saying: "We cannot continue to blame the white men, as Africans, particularly the traditional rulers, are not blameless."

The appeal has reopened a sensitive debate over the part some chiefs played in helping to capture their fellow Africans and sell them into bondage as part of the transatlantic slave trade.

The congress argued that the ancestors of the chiefs had helped to raid and kidnap defenceless communities and traded them to Europeans. They should now apologise to "put a final seal to the history of slave trade",

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Real obvious without help from the more powerful African tribes things would have been a lot different.
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Funny how you attribute no blame whatsoever to the white european slave traders.   You understand it would have happened with our without self-interested cooperation, right?

 
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-fish- said:
This is why we can't separate posts and posters.  You can't allow this argument to go unchallenged without attributing it to the person that posted it.  Some may want to justify it as ignorant, or a product of his upbringing, but that would just be a defense of racism itself.   There's a reason Jimmy the Greek got fired for something that wasn't one tenth as racist as this.   It's just not acceptable, and it's worthy of contempt.
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There is nothing racist about any of this, the story is the story, without help from African tribes we see something totally different.

In the liner notea of Gus Cannon's Jug Stompers CD he (folks were slaves) talks about how the plantation owners did pair up couples. That did go on so was Jimmy the Greek wrong?

 
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-fish- said:
Funny how you attribute no blame whatsoever to the white european slave traders.   You understand it would have happened with our without self-interested cooperation, right?
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Dude, didn't I just post how it all came about?  Did you even read it? 

Do you really think if the powerful African tribes have stood in the way that wouldn't have made a huge difference, really?

 
When it comes to Jimmy the Greek..............

Let’s be clear: Snyder’s comment in no way suggests any moral tolerance for the practice of forced breeding. He is simply accepting it for the historical fact that it unfortunately was. We all know the horrible truth about this, so why is it racist to acknowledge it? Before this country finally woke up and abolished the despicable slave trade, blacks were bred by their owners in order to capitalize on preferred physical traits, particularly strength and endurance which would make for a more productive worker from their progeny. We don’t have to like it, but that truth ain’t going away. The conclusion Snyder then formulated from that historical truth, that this breeding led blacks to be able to run faster and jump higher because their ancestors had been selected for exactly these characteristics, is again not rooted in racism. Rather, it is based upon a central understanding of the science that lies behind Mendelian genetics.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now add the fact many of the slaves the weaker ones died on the trip over, yes, only the strong survived.

 
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It never fails, you just cannot talk black/white wiithout somebody.....racist/racism.

I'm watching the NFL combine right now, it's the DB;s running 40's, every one of these guys is black, noticing this fact.....race....anything,  or just a fact?

Real life is all that is usually talked about.

 
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-fish- said:
defending racism by justifying it as ignorance or habit doesn't make it any better.   you can defend vile characteristics all you'd like.  it doesn't make them less contemptible...or you, by extension.  you're free to defend those acts, and the people that engage in them, all you'd like.   I find both the acts and their defense reprehensible.  as I said, some things should be stigmatized by society.   perhaps then people wouldn't feel emboldened to support them in the guise of defending people that demonstrate these qualities.
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I think you need to read again if you think I am defending racism or vile characteristics.

Your absolute declarations and judgement of others without understanding or context are born of the same place as these "things" you find "reprehensible".

 
FWIW I also posted this critique of the article, which I agreed with. Here it is, scrubbed for political content:

-I admire this article and the civic attitude it represents. But I feel like it avoids something important: what does one do when some of your fellow citizens do not just disagree with you, but believe in - and advocate - things that are genuinely contemptible?

-It's one thing not to make normal political disagreements into grounds for contempt. In that case, sign me up for Brooks's call for kindness. I will admit I am first among sinners on that. But at some point, contemptible ideas must be treated with open contempt and shame.

-I mean, when someone [insert genuinely cruel, violent and/or bigoted behavior or ideology here] - I think contempt is a normal reaction that kicks in as part of a healthy allergy to such talk.

-So, sign me up for more civic virtue, kindness, and grace. But I never signed up for living in a morally relativistic, no-contempt, no-judgment society. Who would? Maybe I didn't understand the piece, which is always possible, but I think Brooks elided this problem.

 
Why are we apologizing for slavery? Why did it even come up in this topic? It happened 100s of years ago and none of us caused or were directly involved in it. Bringing it up in this thread is just a crutch and another example of how we cant have civil discussions about current issues. 

  5 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

The racist thing is what gets me.  Yes we have the different races, that is a reality.  We are not the same, just a fact.  Why we must play silly games about it....???

like enslaving people with different skin color?   that was super silly.
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1
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Zeno is discussing race issues today, Fish digs back 100s of years to inject a point that has nothing to do with the question. 

Yes, slavery happened, no one disagrees with that. However, it does not happen today and you two cant even agree on how or why or who started it...because NONE OF US WERE THERE!!

I take 'Sorry' very seriously and this expectation that I (as a white, middle-aged man)  should be apologizing for slavery is silly. I can "be sorry" it happened, but I'm not  "sorry (as in taking responsibility)" for it. Expecting me to be accountable for slavery is the same as me being accountable for the drunk who just crashed his car into another innocent family's car just because it was in front of my house. I 'can be sorry' it happened, but i'm NOT "sorry for it."

But if you keep on throwing issues that 1. none of us participated in, and 2. have no power in fixing into discussions, then how can we logically discuss it? To me, reverting to that is hiding behind history b/c you cant make a point that moves the conversation forward. Its a topic grenade that just blows up the conversation and does an equal amount of damage to the perimeter...case in point—10+ posts completely off topic and of the rails. 

 
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Incredible this discussion is taking place in FFA considering this is entirely a political issue. And then in this thread about contempt is what must be about one of the top 3 most emotional topics imaginable.

 
TobiasFunke said:
-So, sign me up for more civic virtue, kindness, and grace. But I never signed up for living in a morally relativistic, no-contempt, no-judgment society. 





 
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My take away was I think there's room for nuance. It's not completely black and white. 

I'd love to see more civic virtue, kindness, and grace. And less contempt and judgment. It's why I titled it "Beware of Contempt"

But to be honest, I'm feeling kind of dumb for even posting the article. I should have known better. 

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Incredible this discussion is taking place in FFA considering this is entirely a political issue. And then in this thread about contempt is what must be about one of the top 3 most emotional topics imaginable.
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I don't think it's incredible as I think it's a human issue.

Granted, lots of it does easily veer to politics. But as I was seeing it, this is way bigger than politics. As someone noted with marriages, whenever relationships or interactions get into the area where one side has contempt for the other, it's poisoned. My preference is to avoid that. 

 
-fish- said:
This was the question:

This suggests that criticizing behaviors or arguments is ok, but criticizing the people engaging in the behaviors or making the arguments is not.    This eliminates accountability.   There is no judgment in that statement.  Certainly some people will make unjustified criticisms; one would expect that they would be unable to support their position.   That's how discussion works--not by prohibiting criticism, but instead by requiring fact-based justifications for arguments.

If someone burned a cross on my neighbor's lawn, I would be just as justified in my criticism of the behavior as racist as I would be in my criticism of the person who did it as racist.  You can't just consider words and deeds in their abstract, and trying to do so is actually harmful in that it eliminates personal responsibility.  You could, I suppose, try to argue that the cross-burner isn't necessarily racist and may just not know any better.   In that case, I would recognize that you're bending over backward to defend racism, and you'd likely become the object of my contempt.
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I dont think that anyone is saying racist acts are OK.....what the overall point the OP was making is that we can't even have civil discussions about things like Health Care, immigration, and the economy without someone automatically labeling you a racist, nazi, homophobe, (insert your own slur here). And its all orchestrated: 

What we need is not to disagree less, but to disagree better. And that starts when you turn away the rhetorical dope peddlers — the powerful people on your own side who are profiting from the culture of contempt. As satisfying as it can feel to hear that your foes are irredeemable, stupid and deviant, remember: When you find yourself hating something, someone is making money or winning elections or getting more famous and powerful. Unless a leader is actually teaching you something you didn’t know or expanding your worldview and moral outlook, you are being used.




 
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Joe Bryant said:
Saw this today and thought it was spot on. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-polarization.html . Thanks to @TobiasFunkefor sharing. 
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Joe just a quick thought:

>>A 2014 article in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on “motive attribution asymmetry” — the assumption that your ideology is based in love, while your opponent’s is based in hate — suggests an answer. The researchers found that the average Republican and the average Democrat today suffer from a level of motive attribution asymmetry that is comparable with that of Palestinians and Israelis. Each side thinks it is driven by benevolence, while the other is evil and motivated by hatred — and is therefore an enemy with whom one cannot negotiate or compromise.

People often say that our problem in America today is incivility or intolerance. This is incorrect. Motive attribution asymmetry leads to something far worse: contempt, which is a noxious brew of anger and disgust. And not just contempt for other people’s ideas, but also for other people. In the words of the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, contempt is “the unsullied conviction of the worthlessness of another.”<<

- IMO, the point is don’t classify, denigrate or dismiss someone automatically because of their party or say religion or ethnicity.

That’s not the same as ideology. And it’s not the same as objective criticisms of deficiencies. Being critical of someone, especially someone in public government, for their policies, their words, their actions, for their ideology, is not being contemptuous in this respect. And if you want a debate on ideas contempt is going to come into play for some very specific abhorrent ideas and some people who hold them. Otherwise I think we end up in nihilism, ie a valueless society.

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I don't think it's incredible as I think it's a human issue.

Granted, lots of it does easily veer to politics. But as I was seeing it, this is way bigger than politics. As someone noted with marriages, whenever relationships or interactions get into the area where one side has contempt for the other, it's poisoned. My preference is to avoid that. 
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You’re right, excellent point.

 
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