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Bill Belichick Future - Will He Be Patriots 2023 Season Head Coach? (1 Viewer)

Will Bill Belichick Be HC Of Patriots For 2023 Season?


  • Total voters
    89

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Wasn't directed at me but will answer about Patricia...it is anger...it is anger because everyone knew it was a horrible idea and reports the second camp began were awful and have continued...no one but BB is surprised by this...if he had hired Caley and it did not work out there would still be groaning but more understanding because you gave a young guy a chance but instead you put the development of your QB in the hands of a failed HC who was a DC (and not an overly popular one here by the way) who has never had responsibilities like this before...add in the fact you have your son running the D and it is one big slumber party.

Thanks. That's how I'd see it as a fan and I think how most people see it nationally. But didn't know how it was seen by fans.
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
Maybe Brady evens attends those games as a guest.

He didn't get divorced to hang them up after this year. He won't be a guest unless the Pats are hosting the team he plays for.
The more interesting question is whether Brady retires after this year or next. Playing into his mid 40s at a high level is unprecedented. A coach working into his 70s is not. Halas retired just short of his 73rd birth day.

Tonight's game versus NO could go a long way to determining whether Brady gets into the playoffs, possibly going deep into the playoffs again.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
BB has a local weekly radio interview segment, and his future has come up several times. Bill has mentioned that he used to think there was no way he would coach until he was 70. Now that he has reached 70, he said he enjoys coaching more than ever, has no other passions in life, and he could see himself coaching until he is 80. Local folks have also spoken with Robert Kraft, who also has said they are lucky to have Bill, and that he essentially is welcome to stay as long as he wants. None of those types of interviews or conversations make it to the national spotlight. Reporters are there to stir the pot, get clicks or viewers, or provide hot takes. I don't see Bill wanting to go through a rebuild anywhere, nor do I suspect he will want to give up any control of a team (NE or otherwise). So I expect Bill will be 100% the head coach of NE as long as he wants to be. The Pats would not be getting a better coach with someone else.

Thanks. What do you think is the general level of satisfaction with the team?

Specifically, how they appear to be lost on offense?

How is it seen locally with Patricia?
As touched upon throughout this thread, NE fans and sports media have unrealistic expectations. People here are used to going to the SB every other season, so the Patriots going through a downturn like every other team is not acceptable. I think most fan bases would approve of a team making the playoffs with a rookie QB (NE last year with Jones) and being a game out of a playoff spot the following year 3/4 through the season. But in NE, that's considered a failure. I do agree with others in this thread, that NE is not a threat to win a SB and is a middle of the road team. They will be in the running as a team in playoff contention or just out of the playoffs again, but the odds of them going on the road and winning their first playoff game (if they make it) are slim.

There are two main reasons NE ended up where they are. The first is they had a bunch of players that were big contributors for years that got older (or banged up) all at once . . . Brady, Gronk, Edleman, McCourty, Thuney, Mason, Hightower, etc. And they didn't draft very well for multiple drafts in a row. They got old and slow in a game that is now more focused on young and fast. They still don't have a lot of high-end talent, and it's become a lot harder to win with a team of good but not great players.

There are a lot of reasons why they appear lost on offense . . . but the same people that are pointing out that they look lost are the same ones that last week suggested they looked found on offense after Jones threw for nearly 400 yards with a 120 rating against the Vikings. Also of note is NE turned the ball over 15 times in 7 games but only twice in their past 5 (no turnovers in their last three games). That's part of the reason they look lost, as they have gotten more conservative and are reluctant to try for bigger plays for fearing of coughing up the football.

No one locally or nationally has been a fan of Patricia as the de facto play caller. I believe BB and NE wanted to get Bill O'Brien back in the offseason, but he was still under contract with Alabama. O'Brien's contract will end after Alabama plays their bowl game. He has been linked to some collegiate coaching vacancies, so it remains unclear if he would forgo those to return to NE as OC (or if another NFL franchise would want him as a HC). The reason this week stood out more than others with regard to the offense is some of their offensive players voiced their displeasure to the media after their lackluster performance and play calling against the Bills. Patricia doesn't have many fans and supporters. Not 100% his fault . . . he should not be serving as OC and OL coach (nor should Joe Judge be their QB coach).
 
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Lansdowne

Footballguy
Re: Mac and Brady

I have a very simplistic view on it. Mac comes off to me as a QB who can succeed under ideal conditions but cannot do magic. Brady is a QB that can do magic (and by magic I mean willing a mediocre team to a double-digit win season and division title). He can make chicken salad out of chicken you-know-what. Mac’s not that guy. He has exactly one game-winning drive in the NFL career so far (@ Houston 2021), and they’re 2-12 in games he starts when they trail heading into the 4th quarter (2-11 if you want to be generous and throw out the loss to the Bears since Mac got pulled after only 6 pass attempts). I still believe Mac can be a fine NFL QB if he was in a position to succeed. This 2022 version of the Patriots doesn’t qualify as that, and the lack of continuity with the coaching and the OL is stunting his growth as a player. It’s hard to get a read on whether he can be the guy long term or not because he’s been put in an impossible situation.

Let’s put it a different way. If Tua and Mac switched places, I think Mac would do very well in Miami and Tua would get demolished. If Kirk Cousins (who Mac has often been compared to) switched places with him, I believe the Vikings would be just fine, and Cousins would struggle to look like anything resembling a 3-time Pro Bowler. This Patriots team is a mess, though I agree that Brady (even now) would have them at 8-4 (they’d win the GB and MIN games) because his experience and knowing when to get rid of the ball or avoid a sack would make the difference in a few games.
 
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Gatorman

Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
BB is not going anywhere, and as a dolphin fan I understand why.

Bb and Shula share some similar problems in the latter stages of their careers, but Bill b has one thing shula didn’t. A stable owner of the franchise

both of them later in their careeers had bigger issues as gm than they did as coach. They also valued their assistants too much to see what we all see/saw: the guys they had as coordinators suck. Olivadotti as dc in Miami was a train wreck, much like Patricia as OC is about as bad.

the difference is Kraft. He’s not dumb enough to let bill go on the cusp of having the wins record for a coach. in Miami, Shula already had the record and a new owner (Huzinga) wanted to put his stamp on the team by hiring Jimmy Johnson.
 

Lansdowne

Footballguy
My other thing is this. Yes, the Pats made the playoffs with a rookie QB, and that’s an accomplishment in itself. But it needs context. They went into their Week 14 bye as the 1 seed in the AFC. Then completely faceplanted the rest of the way, gave up the 1 seed, then the division, then got flat out embarrassed against said division winner. Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

Brady, Roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson are all guys who won Super Bowl titles in their second year as a pro, so it’s possible if your franchise is building a winner and has the pieces. Belichick’s struggle to find core franchise stars in the draft recently have resulted in this setback. I’ve seen too many times Belichick passed on a chance at a difference maker because he wanted to trade down and get more draft capital. He’s gotten too cute with it and it’s now catching up to him.

Flopping the Harry pick (especially with the other receivers available) on top of failing to go after Diggs (and the Bills ending up with him) cost them Brady and cost them the division for a long time. I like the two Joneses he drafted this year. Other than that it’s not looking too good.
 

SeniorVBDStudent

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
I'm not sure I believe that replacing Nick Caserio with Bill Belichick is a real impact. Do we know to what extent Caserio was and independent authority versus a BB puppet?

The losses of Scarnecchia and Ernie Adams are more meaningful than the loss of Caserio in my mind.

I voted 90-99% in the poll...not for health reasons but in the event that Kraft mandates Bill O'Brien to replace Patricia and Bill walks. I dont see that happening but stranger things have happened.
 

SeniorVBDStudent

Footballguy
It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.

That's how it seems to me. I think we all accept a significant part of the Patriots dynasty was the weak state of the Division. For sure, they had to deliver in the biggest games, and they obviously did, but they often faced an optimal path.

Now, when they look around, they appear light-years behind. And I don't know how they make it up.

The division was weak for a long time....however its a false conclusion that NE fattened its record by disproportionately beating division versus non-division opponents.

circa 2018....

The Patriots are 71-19 since 2003 in the AFC East. That’s a .788 winning percentage. Outside the division, they are 118-32 (.786).
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
It’s weird that the AFCE could not produce a legit team / QB / coach that could be competitive in all those years. The AFCS was in the same situation when Manning was there. The difference was, the Colts smoked all the teams in their division and were less success outside the division.

That’s one thing that is getting overlooked some in the discussion of the recent NE teams. The Pats got 5-6 wins a year in their division for years. Now all the teams in the AFCE are all much better compared to other years. That has nothing to do with NE. That alone could turn them from a 12 win team to a 9-10 win team.
 

bostonfred

Footballguy
Halas 328
Shula 318
Belichick 298

Belichick will do everything he can to get that record. He'll ride a Lark up and down the sidelines if he has to. He is not quitting, and Kraft isn't going to have him go to another team to win a title like Brady did. These guys are already in every football history book but Belichick is a historian and this is about legacy. He's going to coach until he gets there.

I said the same thing about Brady playing longer than Brees while they were jockeying for the passing yards and touchdowns records and both were close to passing Manning. I remember people saying father time is undefeated and Brees was younger.

These guys were both already in the conversation as the greatest of all time but they're both motivated to put that conversation to rest.

For Belichick that means setting the all time wins record. A championship without Brady would be the cherry on top.
 

bostonfred

Footballguy
Regarding Patricia, belichick isn't just grooming a quarterback. He's grooming a coaching staff that can help him to win those last 31 games. He's got a rapport with these guys and he knows they're smart coaches because he's in the room with them game planning.

It's not surprising that there were growing pains this year with coaches moving into different roles but he's giving them career growth and expanding their skills for his time with them. He'd rather run a team with guys he knows and respects than try to find new guys to groom into the Patriots way.

He's had massive turnover in the coaching staff, not just personnel. Think about the peak years for the Patriots. Players didn't just get a playbook, they got a document with instructions for everything they were supposed to do on the field, including stuff like running to and from the sidelines.

Look at this year. The majority of these guys have been here 2-3 years. This is the sloppiest team in terms of penalties that I can remember. Guys are making mental errors because they're not prepared.

I do blame some of that on Patricia because it's his job to make sure they're prepared, and he's too inexperienced in his role to develop a quarterback, build a game plan that fits mac's strengths, call plays, backfill the offensive line and by the way make sure these guys don't commit penalties. But he's getting experience. He's made a lot of in game adjustments that got them back in games. Next year he will have a staff of assistants who know how to implement what he wants and he'll be able to focus on eliminating mistakes.

I don't think using Patricia as an untitled offensive coordinator is the best approach to win in 2022 but I think it's a solid approach to contend for the next 4 years. I know Patriots fans don't want to hear it but I think he's back next year unless McDaniels comes back.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Regarding Patricia, belichick isn't just grooming a quarterback. He's grooming a coaching staff that can help him to win those last 31 games. He's got a rapport with these guys and he knows they're smart coaches because he's in the room with them game planning.

It's not surprising that there were growing pains this year with coaches moving into different roles but he's giving them career growth and expanding their skills for his time with them. He'd rather run a team with guys he knows and respects than try to find new guys to groom into the Patriots way.

He's had massive turnover in the coaching staff, not just personnel. Think about the peak years for the Patriots. Players didn't just get a playbook, they got a document with instructions for everything they were supposed to do on the field, including stuff like running to and from the sidelines.

Look at this year. The majority of these guys have been here 2-3 years. This is the sloppiest team in terms of penalties that I can remember. Guys are making mental errors because they're not prepared.

I do blame some of that on Patricia because it's his job to make sure they're prepared, and he's too inexperienced in his role to develop a quarterback, build a game plan that fits mac's strengths, call plays, backfill the offensive line and by the way make sure these guys don't commit penalties. But he's getting experience. He's made a lot of in game adjustments that got them back in games. Next year he will have a staff of assistants who know how to implement what he wants and he'll be able to focus on eliminating mistakes.

I don't think using Patricia as an untitled offensive coordinator is the best approach to win in 2022 but I think it's a solid approach to contend for the next 4 years. I know Patriots fans don't want to hear it but I think he's back next year unless McDaniels comes back.
Well, there are multiple guys reporting that Bill O’Brien will be back as OC, and it could already be a done deal.

It’s been pretty evident that BB prefers (or perhaps will only work with) guys that came out of NE (either as players or coaches).

If not O’Brien, then Josh would be a candidate (if Vegas boots him), as would Chad O’Shea (worked in NE for 10 years) or Nick Caley (been there for 8 seasons).

Part of the issue is BB ultimately wants to run the show and most likely doesn’t want to bring in someone with a different system, a louder voice, or a strong personality. The issue for NE is that is likely what they need.
 

Boston

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
I'm not sure I believe that replacing Nick Caserio with Bill Belichick is a real impact. Do we know to what extent Caserio was and independent authority versus a BB puppet?

The losses of Scarnecchia and Ernie Adams are more meaningful than the loss of Caserio in my mind.

I voted 90-99% in the poll...not for health reasons but in the event that Kraft mandates Bill O'Brien to replace Patricia and Bill walks. I dont see that happening but stranger things have happened.

Kind of confused by this...Caserio had nothing to do with assembling the coaching staff...that is all BB...also, BB was and is making the final calls with or without Caserio so not sure what that has to do with what I wrote.
 

Boston

Footballguy
Regarding Patricia, belichick isn't just grooming a quarterback. He's grooming a coaching staff that can help him to win those last 31 games. He's got a rapport with these guys and he knows they're smart coaches because he's in the room with them game planning.

It's not surprising that there were growing pains this year with coaches moving into different roles but he's giving them career growth and expanding their skills for his time with them. He'd rather run a team with guys he knows and respects than try to find new guys to groom into the Patriots way.

He's had massive turnover in the coaching staff, not just personnel. Think about the peak years for the Patriots. Players didn't just get a playbook, they got a document with instructions for everything they were supposed to do on the field, including stuff like running to and from the sidelines.

Look at this year. The majority of these guys have been here 2-3 years. This is the sloppiest team in terms of penalties that I can remember. Guys are making mental errors because they're not prepared.

I do blame some of that on Patricia because it's his job to make sure they're prepared, and he's too inexperienced in his role to develop a quarterback, build a game plan that fits mac's strengths, call plays, backfill the offensive line and by the way make sure these guys don't commit penalties. But he's getting experience. He's made a lot of in game adjustments that got them back in games. Next year he will have a staff of assistants who know how to implement what he wants and he'll be able to focus on eliminating mistakes.

I don't think using Patricia as an untitled offensive coordinator is the best approach to win in 2022 but I think it's a solid approach to contend for the next 4 years. I know Patriots fans don't want to hear it but I think he's back next year unless McDaniels comes back.
Well, there are multiple guys reporting that Bill O’Brien will be back as OC, and it could already be a done deal.

It’s been pretty evident that BB prefers (or perhaps will only work with) guys that came out of NE (either as players or coaches).

If not O’Brien, then Josh would be a candidate (if Vegas boots him), as would Chad O’Shea (worked in NE for 10 years) or Nick Caley (been there for 8 seasons).

Part of the issue is BB ultimately wants to run the show and most likely doesn’t want to bring in someone with a different system, a louder voice, or a strong personality. The issue for NE is that is likely what they need.

The other issue is TB12 is no longer here...they have been losing Coaches for 20 years but with Brady there it was far easier to overcome...that is no longer the case...he is no longer there to cover-up suspect coaching and/or personnel on the offensive side of the ball.
 

SeniorVBDStudent

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
I'm not sure I believe that replacing Nick Caserio with Bill Belichick is a real impact. Do we know to what extent Caserio was and independent authority versus a BB puppet?

The losses of Scarnecchia and Ernie Adams are more meaningful than the loss of Caserio in my mind.

I voted 90-99% in the poll...not for health reasons but in the event that Kraft mandates Bill O'Brien to replace Patricia and Bill walks. I dont see that happening but stranger things have happened.

Kind of confused by this...Caserio had nothing to do with assembling the coaching staff...that is all BB...also, BB was and is making the final calls with or without Caserio so not sure what that has to do with what I wrote.
I misread your comments as holistic rather than coaching-specific.
 

Hot Sauce Guy

Footballguy
I voted 💯 yes.

I just don’t see how you replace BB. Mac Jones is hamstringing that offense a bit.

I guess you can place some blame on BB’s choice of OC. But that’s solved with a better OC, not dismissing BB.

I guess I just can’t imagine moving on unless you can get Sean Payton, and I’m not sure why he’d want that job.
 

Hot Sauce Guy

Footballguy
Regarding Patricia, belichick isn't just grooming a quarterback. He's grooming a coaching staff that can help him to win those last 31 games. He's got a rapport with these guys and he knows they're smart coaches because he's in the room with them game planning.

It's not surprising that there were growing pains this year with coaches moving into different roles but he's giving them career growth and expanding their skills for his time with them. He'd rather run a team with guys he knows and respects than try to find new guys to groom into the Patriots way.

He's had massive turnover in the coaching staff, not just personnel. Think about the peak years for the Patriots. Players didn't just get a playbook, they got a document with instructions for everything they were supposed to do on the field, including stuff like running to and from the sidelines.

Look at this year. The majority of these guys have been here 2-3 years. This is the sloppiest team in terms of penalties that I can remember. Guys are making mental errors because they're not prepared.

I do blame some of that on Patricia because it's his job to make sure they're prepared, and he's too inexperienced in his role to develop a quarterback, build a game plan that fits mac's strengths, call plays, backfill the offensive line and by the way make sure these guys don't commit penalties. But he's getting experience. He's made a lot of in game adjustments that got them back in games. Next year he will have a staff of assistants who know how to implement what he wants and he'll be able to focus on eliminating mistakes.

I don't think using Patricia as an untitled offensive coordinator is the best approach to win in 2022 but I think it's a solid approach to contend for the next 4 years. I know Patriots fans don't want to hear it but I think he's back next year unless McDaniels comes back.
Well, there are multiple guys reporting that Bill O’Brien will be back as OC, and it could already be a done deal.

It’s been pretty evident that BB prefers (or perhaps will only work with) guys that came out of NE (either as players or coaches).

If not O’Brien, then Josh would be a candidate (if Vegas boots him), as would Chad O’Shea (worked in NE for 10 years) or Nick Caley (been there for 8 seasons).

Part of the issue is BB ultimately wants to run the show and most likely doesn’t want to bring in someone with a different system, a louder voice, or a strong personality. The issue for NE is that is likely what they need.

The other issue is TB12 is no longer here...they have been losing Coaches for 20 years but with Brady there it was far easier to overcome...that is no longer the case...he is no longer there to cover-up suspect coaching and/or personnel on the offensive side of the ball.
And related, much of that coaching tree benefitted directly by Brady’s success and parlayed it into personal upgrades for coaching positions.

Some work out better than others when they move on. We’re seeing the same with the Kyle Shanahan coaching tree. Saleh, McDaniels, and soon to be DeMeco Ryans.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Wondering what you folks thought on this.

Last week, Colin Cowherd brought up Bill Belichick's future in New England and what Robert Kraft might be thinking.

In today's column, Peter King wrote something similar.
8. I think that game Thursday night said this to me: The Bills have become to New England what the Patriots were to Buffalo for two decades. Not to put Josh Allen on a Tom Brady But just in terms of football, the gap between Allen and Jones is worrisome for New England, and the talent gap between the depth of the Brandon Beane Bills and the Bill Belichick Patriots is big. That gap has led to the Bills winning the last three games in the series by an average of 19 points. Amazing to consider that the Patriots really aren’t close to Buffalo now. To triple-down on the differences between the two teams, consider how non-competitive that game felt. Buffalo was playing without two of its five most important defensive players, Von Miller and Micah Hyde, and still controlled the ball for 38 minutes. Midway through the fourth quarter, with the Bills up 24-7, New England, needing three scores, had the most painful, clunky drive imaginable—17 plays, taking almost six minutes, and getting just a field goal out of it. Six incompletions on the drive. When it was over, and Buffalo got the ensuing onside kick, Belichick didn’t even bother to use his three timeouts to try to get the ball back. He white-flagged the last two minutes. That’s how hopeless this felt.

9. I think Robert Kraft, who is 81 and will enter his 30th year of Patriots ownership in 2023, is not in this to rebuild deliberately. He has to be looking at the dung-show on the Patriots’ offensive staff and wondering why Belichick left the offense so wanting this year. Anyway, I can’t see anything weird happening this year. But I have my antennae up about the Patriots for 2023.

What do you think?
I missed this thread JB
You always find relevant topics and things people are thinking about
Great idea and discussion
 

Bri

Footballguy
He needs to retire at some point and enjoy his retirement doing whatever the heck he wants with his millions. What a blessing for someone to be able to do that.
He seems just like people that are obsessed with their job and pass away working up til the end.
I don't know how to think on this since technically they are doing what they love. It's always uncomfortable.
**** Lebeau had an interesting interview discussing his family urging him and how he went home and opened some playbooks and put on game tape. Dean Smith had a fun story where he told everyone he's not retiring and then a grandchild melted his heart.
These ol ball coaches and their love of the game versus what their minds determine is a fun day off....ooof.
I wish him and his family well
 

Rubi

Footballguy
Lord Vader will be the head coach of The New England Patriots for as long as he wants to be.
Book it.
Sign it.
Seal it.
He will leave and/or retire when he's good and ready to do so.
And Robert Kraft is perfectly fine with it.
 

massraider

Footballguy
Lord Vader will be the head coach of The New England Patriots for as long as he wants to be.
Book it.
Sign it.
Seal it.
He will leave and/or retire when he's good and ready to do so.
And Robert Kraft is perfectly fine with it.
Yes.

I think Kraft will consider moving on whenever Colin Freaking Cowherd suddenly has some say in the Patriots front office.
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
For some coaches, losing games is emotionally painful and takes the joy out of coaching and winning games. Burnout. For Jimmy Johnson, two lop-sided losses in both the 1998 and 1999 playoffs were the final straw. He also wanted to make-up for lost family time and he enjoyed his life in the Keys.

To be as successful as BB for so long is not easy. If he survived coaching the Cam season, I don't see him retiring until he breaks Shula's record.
 

GroveDiesel

Footballguy
Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.
Yep. They're already the fourth-place team in their own division, and they're stuck in neutral while the Dolphins and Jets are clearly trending up and the Bills seem to be in good shape for the foreseeable future. If Jones isn't the answer at QB -- and I don't think he is -- the Patriots have quite a lot of work in front of them.
I think this gets us full circle to the biggest systemic issue with NE. What worked for them for years (strong defense, limit turnovers on offense, run the football, and let their opponents make mistakes) is no longer a viable strategy.

The reason that stuff worked was because they had the greatest QB of all time playing under a team friendly contract for 2 decades. The Pats won close game after close game because Brady simply didn’t make mistakes and he made defenses pay for theirs every time. And the Pats could invest plenty of money on defense and in the trenches because Brady took less money and other guys took less money to play for them.

ETA: I voted 90-99% chance because the only way I see him not being the coach is if he retires for whatever reason. Either by choice or some sudden health issue.
 

Hot Sauce Guy

Footballguy
Lord Vader will be the head coach of The New England Patriots for as long as he wants to be.
Book it.
Sign it.
Seal it.
He will leave and/or retire when he's good and ready to do so.
And Robert Kraft is perfectly fine with it.
I agree. And I think he enjoys having his mulleted brood as DC.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.
Yep. They're already the fourth-place team in their own division, and they're stuck in neutral while the Dolphins and Jets are clearly trending up and the Bills seem to be in good shape for the foreseeable future. If Jones isn't the answer at QB -- and I don't think he is -- the Patriots have quite a lot of work in front of them.
I think this gets us full circle to the biggest systemic issue with NE. What worked for them for years (strong defense, limit turnovers on offense, run the football, and let their opponents make mistakes) is no longer a viable strategy.

The reason that stuff worked was because they had the greatest QB of all time playing under a team friendly contract for 2 decades. The Pats won close game after close game because Brady simply didn’t make mistakes and he made defenses pay for theirs every time. And the Pats could invest plenty of money on defense and in the trenches because Brady took less money and other guys took less money to play for them.

ETA: I voted 90-99% chance because the only way I see him not being the coach is if he retires for whatever reason. Either by choice or some sudden health issue.
IMO, the Brady taking less wasn't always the case (for most of his time in NE before QB salaries went through the roof). Yes, there were times he took less money, but not a ton less. People forget he got a lot of money up front, signed extensions that converted salary into bonuses, and on a AAV was pretty close to the top of the league. But people would say "Wow, he's playing for $13M or $15M!" But that was his base salary, and they left out the art that he got a signing bonus, converted future salary for upfront cash, and got another signing bonus on the extension. NE gave him $112M in money up front of the $235M he made altogether in NE. That's less than he could have made if he demanding to be the highest paid QB, but that didn't give them a lot of excessive cap room. They might have been able to have one more decent piece each year because of it.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
That's less than he could have made if he demanding to be the highest paid QB, but that didn't give them a lot of excessive cap room.

Henry Ford, who used to be on this board, went through that myth and debunked it numerous times. Brady did not, in the end, take less most years. Most years he got cash up front, which is ever better for expected returns.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.

He has also mentioned that the Pats were 27th in spending...not sure if he is using it as an excuse or a shot at the Krafts:

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not sure what the point was. They ended with $2.2 million in cap space, which will get rolled over into next season (or used to payout incentives that players earned this year). That better positions them moving forward than if they were first in spending and had no money to spend and no cap room. We can talk about all the things BB and NE has done wrong in recent seasons, but the one thing they generally have done right is not sign people to crazy contracts, adding a ton of dummy years, and kicking their cap hits into the future.

However, in recent years, that started changing. They had to take on a decent cap hit when Brady moved on, they had to take on cap hits when Gronk left and AB played one game for NE, etc.. As discussed at length, their FA signings from a couple of seasons ago were a mixed bag of results, ranging from disastrous (Jonnu and Agholor), so-so (Bourne and Henry), to pretty good (Judon). Overall, I'd give that group of signings probably a C-, and they need to do better this off season.

Again, not sure why Bill was snarky about their rank in spending. Are they really going to go out and bring in a high-end receiver for 4/$110M? I will do a post-season autopsy and analysis after the season is over in the Patriots main thread.
 

Boston

Footballguy
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.

He has also mentioned that the Pats were 27th in spending...not sure if he is using it as an excuse or a shot at the Krafts:

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not sure what the point was. They ended with $2.2 million in cap space, which will get rolled over into next season (or used to payout incentives that players earned this year). That better positions them moving forward than if they were first in spending and had no money to spend and no cap room. We can talk about all the things BB and NE has done wrong in recent seasons, but the one thing they generally have done right is not sign people to crazy contracts, adding a ton of dummy years, and kicking their cap hits into the future.

However, in recent years, that started changing. They had to take on a decent cap hit when Brady moved on, they had to take on cap hits when Gronk left and AB played one game for NE, etc.. As discussed at length, their FA signings from a couple of seasons ago were a mixed bag of results, ranging from disastrous (Jonnu and Agholor), so-so (Bourne and Henry), to pretty good (Judon). Overall, I'd give that group of signings probably a C-, and they need to do better this off season.

Again, not sure why Bill was snarky about their rank in spending. Are they really going to go out and bring in a high-end receiver for 4/$110M? I will do a post-season autopsy and analysis after the season is over in the Patriots main thread.

Gonna be a fascinating off-season...it all begins and ends with BB being honest with himself, realizing the path they are on is not going to get them out of that 7–10-win area and be open to change...I still believe in BB the HC but it is BB the GM that is on the clock right now.
 

Gatorman

Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.

He has also mentioned that the Pats were 27th in spending...not sure if he is using it as an excuse or a shot at the Krafts:

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not sure what the point was. They ended with $2.2 million in cap space, which will get rolled over into next season (or used to payout incentives that players earned this year). That better positions them moving forward than if they were first in spending and had no money to spend and no cap room. We can talk about all the things BB and NE has done wrong in recent seasons, but the one thing they generally have done right is not sign people to crazy contracts, adding a ton of dummy years, and kicking their cap hits into the future.

However, in recent years, that started changing. They had to take on a decent cap hit when Brady moved on, they had to take on cap hits when Gronk left and AB played one game for NE, etc.. As discussed at length, their FA signings from a couple of seasons ago were a mixed bag of results, ranging from disastrous (Jonnu and Agholor), so-so (Bourne and Henry), to pretty good (Judon). Overall, I'd give that group of signings probably a C-, and they need to do better this off season.

Again, not sure why Bill was snarky about their rank in spending. Are they really going to go out and bring in a high-end receiver for 4/$110M? I will do a post-season autopsy and analysis after the season is over in the Patriots main thread.

Gonna be a fascinating off-season...it all begins and ends with BB being honest with himself, realizing the path they are on is not going to get them out of that 7–10-win area and be open to change...I still believe in BB the HC but it is BB the GM that is on the clock right now.
I think every team in the AFCE has to look at the division the way we did during Brady's heyday. The path to the playoffs comes through beating the bills. Period end of Story. Unless Allen gets hurt its a 10-15 year battle with any other team to win the division, and the jets and dolphins are a lot closer today than the pats, regardless of how the records ended up.
 

Alex P Keaton

Footballguy
BB’s record without Brady: 77-85 (0.475)

Note: based on quick addition, could be off by a couple due to laziness

Brady’s record without BB: 31-18 (0.633)

Note: Brady also won a Super Bowl w/o BB


Not sure what the above means. It’s just stats without context.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.

He has also mentioned that the Pats were 27th in spending...not sure if he is using it as an excuse or a shot at the Krafts:

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not sure what the point was. They ended with $2.2 million in cap space, which will get rolled over into next season (or used to payout incentives that players earned this year). That better positions them moving forward than if they were first in spending and had no money to spend and no cap room. We can talk about all the things BB and NE has done wrong in recent seasons, but the one thing they generally have done right is not sign people to crazy contracts, adding a ton of dummy years, and kicking their cap hits into the future.

However, in recent years, that started changing. They had to take on a decent cap hit when Brady moved on, they had to take on cap hits when Gronk left and AB played one game for NE, etc.. As discussed at length, their FA signings from a couple of seasons ago were a mixed bag of results, ranging from disastrous (Jonnu and Agholor), so-so (Bourne and Henry), to pretty good (Judon). Overall, I'd give that group of signings probably a C-, and they need to do better this off season.

Again, not sure why Bill was snarky about their rank in spending. Are they really going to go out and bring in a high-end receiver for 4/$110M? I will do a post-season autopsy and analysis after the season is over in the Patriots main thread.

Gonna be a fascinating off-season...it all begins and ends with BB being honest with himself, realizing the path they are on is not going to get them out of that 7–10-win area and be open to change...I still believe in BB the HC but it is BB the GM that is on the clock right now.
They were talking about the Pats season on TV last night, and of all people, Felger was complimentary that they got younger, they had some decent players, and there were some pieces to build around. But what held them back was the clown school coaching staff. Breer chimed in that the locker room got tone deaf to the coaches not named BB. Will be interesting to see how they address their needs on the field in addition to winning back the locker room with better / more qualified coaches.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
BB’s record without Brady: 77-85 (0.475)

Note: based on quick addition, could be off by a couple due to laziness

Brady’s record without BB: 31-18 (0.633)

Note: Brady also won a Super Bowl w/o BB


Not sure what the above means. It’s just stats without context.
I don't think it shows a heck of a lot. It shows that Tampa had a better team and more talent than NE did the first two seasons. And it also shows that the AFCE improved while the NFCS has taken a turn for the worst. Brady and Tampa were no better than NE this year . . . in fact, one could make a case that NE was better with a +17 point scoring differential vs. -45 points for Tampa. Hard to compare a team with the carcass of Cam Newton and a rookie / young QB in Jones. A case could also be made that Tampa would not have won a SB in any other year, and the road to victory in a COVID season without (or hardly any) fans in the stands was nowhere near the same as a regular playoff atmosphere.

If people want to say NE should never have ended up with Newton and shouldn't have drafted Jones, I won't argue either of those. NE "should" have had 10 wins this season (they "should" have won vs. LV and CIN . . . and the officiating vs. MIN didn't help them any) . . . even with a 1940's style offense and invisible coaching. Put another way, like the 2019 Patriots, I doubt NE would have advanced very far with Brady still as their QB in 2020 / 21 / 22. They weren't good enough to compete with the upper crust of teams, and they wouldn't have had the likes of Godwin, Evans, Gronk, AB, etc. That's a talent issue, so that would fall more on BB the GM than BB the head coach.
 
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Mitchie

Footballguy
BB’s record without Brady: 77-85 (0.475)

Note: based on quick addition, could be off by a couple due to laziness

Brady’s record without BB: 31-18 (0.633)

Note: Brady also won a Super Bowl w/o BB


Not sure what the above means. It’s just stats without context.
I don't think it shows a heck of a lot. It shows that Tampa had a better team and more talent than NE did the first two seasons. And it also shows that the AFCE improved while the NFCS has taken a turn for the worst. Brady and Tampa were no better than NE this year . . . in fact, one could make a case that NE was better with a +17 point scoring differential vs. -45 points for Tampa. hard to compare a team with the carcass of Cam Newton and a rookie / young QB in Jones. A case could also be made that Tampa would not have won a SB in any other year, and the road to victory in a COVID season without (or hardly any) fans in the stands was nowhere near the same as a regular playoff atmosphere.

If people want to say NE should never have ended up with Newton and shouldn't have drafted Jones, I won't argue either of those. NE "should" have had 10 wins this season (they "should" have won vs. LV and CIN . . . and the officiating vs. MIN didn't help them any) . . . even with a 1940's style offense and invisible coaching. Put another way, like the 2019 Patriots, I doubt NE would have advanced very far with Brady still as their QB in 2020 / 21 / 22. They weren't good enough to compete with the upper crust of teams, and they wouldn't have had the likes of Godwin, Evans, Gronk, AB, etc. That's a talent issue, so that would fall more on BB the GM than BB the head coach.
Nothing you say is wrong but bottom line is players >>>> coaches always.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
BB’s record without Brady: 77-85 (0.475)

Note: based on quick addition, could be off by a couple due to laziness

Brady’s record without BB: 31-18 (0.633)

Note: Brady also won a Super Bowl w/o BB


Not sure what the above means. It’s just stats without context.
I don't think it shows a heck of a lot. It shows that Tampa had a better team and more talent than NE did the first two seasons. And it also shows that the AFCE improved while the NFCS has taken a turn for the worst. Brady and Tampa were no better than NE this year . . . in fact, one could make a case that NE was better with a +17 point scoring differential vs. -45 points for Tampa. hard to compare a team with the carcass of Cam Newton and a rookie / young QB in Jones. A case could also be made that Tampa would not have won a SB in any other year, and the road to victory in a COVID season without (or hardly any) fans in the stands was nowhere near the same as a regular playoff atmosphere.

If people want to say NE should never have ended up with Newton and shouldn't have drafted Jones, I won't argue either of those. NE "should" have had 10 wins this season (they "should" have won vs. LV and CIN . . . and the officiating vs. MIN didn't help them any) . . . even with a 1940's style offense and invisible coaching. Put another way, like the 2019 Patriots, I doubt NE would have advanced very far with Brady still as their QB in 2020 / 21 / 22. They weren't good enough to compete with the upper crust of teams, and they wouldn't have had the likes of Godwin, Evans, Gronk, AB, etc. That's a talent issue, so that would fall more on BB the GM than BB the head coach.
Nothing you say is wrong but bottom line is players >>>> coaches always.
BB will absolutely tell people the same thing (and has on many occasions). Players are the ones making split second decisions and have to execute. All the coaching, scheming, game planning, and preparation won't win anything with players that make poor decisions, lack discipline, and are less talented.

I would chalk up the 2022 NE team as having the wrong mix of coaches and players, not enough talent, and way too many stupid mistakes. That was TB12's greatest asset to the Pats. He limited mistakes, and that's something the coaching staff took for granted and didn't have to worry about for many, many years. One would think it's not that difficult to know the snap count and not move, but apparently that is something you have to worry about.

I still say a lot of people had some unrealistic expectations for the post-Brady Patriots. It's very rare for teams to move on from a HOF QB and see similar success. GB (Favre and Rodgers) and SF (Montana and Young) were the rare exceptions. NE fans are so used to going to the SB every year that nothing else will do, but the Pats are now living in the same place that most NFL teams live in for many years. I thought NE would be a fringe playoff team and that's essentially what they are. How they get out of that rut and what to tweak will be debated all off-season.
 

Boston

Footballguy
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.

He has also mentioned that the Pats were 27th in spending...not sure if he is using it as an excuse or a shot at the Krafts:

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not sure what the point was. They ended with $2.2 million in cap space, which will get rolled over into next season (or used to payout incentives that players earned this year). That better positions them moving forward than if they were first in spending and had no money to spend and no cap room. We can talk about all the things BB and NE has done wrong in recent seasons, but the one thing they generally have done right is not sign people to crazy contracts, adding a ton of dummy years, and kicking their cap hits into the future.

However, in recent years, that started changing. They had to take on a decent cap hit when Brady moved on, they had to take on cap hits when Gronk left and AB played one game for NE, etc.. As discussed at length, their FA signings from a couple of seasons ago were a mixed bag of results, ranging from disastrous (Jonnu and Agholor), so-so (Bourne and Henry), to pretty good (Judon). Overall, I'd give that group of signings probably a C-, and they need to do better this off season.

Again, not sure why Bill was snarky about their rank in spending. Are they really going to go out and bring in a high-end receiver for 4/$110M? I will do a post-season autopsy and analysis after the season is over in the Patriots main thread.

Gonna be a fascinating off-season...it all begins and ends with BB being honest with himself, realizing the path they are on is not going to get them out of that 7–10-win area and be open to change...I still believe in BB the HC but it is BB the GM that is on the clock right now.
I think every team in the AFCE has to look at the division the way we did during Brady's heyday. The path to the playoffs comes through beating the bills. Period end of Story. Unless Allen gets hurt its a 10-15 year battle with any other team to win the division, and the jets and dolphins are a lot closer today than the pats, regardless of how the records ended up.

It all depends on what the other teams figure out at QB...besides being very good the key to the Pats domination in the AFCE was they never had to deal with another good QB (or HC for the most part) for 20 years...it makes no sense that that was the case but that is what happened...for right now you are dead on but if you look at a team like the Jets and if they are able to add a high-end QB they could easily go toe-to-toe with this current Bills team...but that is easier said than done.
 
Last edited:

Boston

Footballguy
For anyone that was wondering, BB announced at his season-ending press conference this morning that he will be back as head coach for the 2023 season, and he will start planning and preparing today.

He has also mentioned that the Pats were 27th in spending...not sure if he is using it as an excuse or a shot at the Krafts:

Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not sure what the point was. They ended with $2.2 million in cap space, which will get rolled over into next season (or used to payout incentives that players earned this year). That better positions them moving forward than if they were first in spending and had no money to spend and no cap room. We can talk about all the things BB and NE has done wrong in recent seasons, but the one thing they generally have done right is not sign people to crazy contracts, adding a ton of dummy years, and kicking their cap hits into the future.

However, in recent years, that started changing. They had to take on a decent cap hit when Brady moved on, they had to take on cap hits when Gronk left and AB played one game for NE, etc.. As discussed at length, their FA signings from a couple of seasons ago were a mixed bag of results, ranging from disastrous (Jonnu and Agholor), so-so (Bourne and Henry), to pretty good (Judon). Overall, I'd give that group of signings probably a C-, and they need to do better this off season.

Again, not sure why Bill was snarky about their rank in spending. Are they really going to go out and bring in a high-end receiver for 4/$110M? I will do a post-season autopsy and analysis after the season is over in the Patriots main thread.

Gonna be a fascinating off-season...it all begins and ends with BB being honest with himself, realizing the path they are on is not going to get them out of that 7–10-win area and be open to change...I still believe in BB the HC but it is BB the GM that is on the clock right now.
They were talking about the Pats season on TV last night, and of all people, Felger was complimentary that they got younger, they had some decent players, and there were some pieces to build around. But what held them back was the clown school coaching staff. Breer chimed in that the locker room got tone deaf to the coaches not named BB. Will be interesting to see how they address their needs on the field in addition to winning back the locker room with better / more qualified coaches.

I think they have done a solid but definitely not great job at getting younger...they still have gigantic holes...on offense Tackle is a disaster, they need a legit #1 at WR and they need to be getting more from the TE position...on D they need better play at LB and the secondary is dicey because you have a potential McCourty retirement, Jonathan Jones as a FA and the question of whether you can rely on Jack Jones (and for the love of God please replace Myles Bryant), even if those things in the secondary work out you still need another legit CB and S because at most McCourty would only have one more year...and that doesn't even touch on Mac...which we will have a lot to discuss about this whole offseason.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
they need a real offensive coordinator
I am probably going to regret bringing up things in a half dozen threads, but rumor has it that Bill O'Brien may already be lined up to take over as OC. Other current of former Pats-related options include Josh McDaniels coming back if LV gives him the boot, Chad O'Shea (was an offensive coach for 10 years), Nick Caley (has been an offensive assistant the past 8 years), and I even heard mention of Kliff Kingsbury now that the Cardinals let him go. I also heard someone mention Troy Brown as an option. BB prefers to have guys that know the culture that he trusts over bringing in someone from completely outside the organization. But I doubt they reach out to someone as an outsider or bring in some hot shot college coordinator.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Arguing that Tampa has been even remotely similar to NE is genuinely an argument only a homer could love.

Tampa's in the playoffs again. Third straight year. NE gets bounced in the first the other years while Tampa wins the SB and almost beats the champs but for Bowles.

It's so painstakingly obvious who got the better of the leaving that it barely deserves an argument. Only a honk will tell you differently.
 

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