Bill Maher on Reverse Improvement (1 Viewer)

[KarmaPolice]

Part of this might be true, but I would argue that our diets, sleep, hours and stress at work etc play a bigger role in the rise in depression.

You think lack of sleep and stress aren't tied to phone usage and social media? I would guess that those two things contribute more to lack of sleep and stress than almost anything else

That isn't what I said, I just don't believe the bulk of our depression issues are related to social media and the internet.

I believe our depression issues started before the invention of these things and there are many layers to it and blaming a majority of it on social media is lazy and convenient because there are parts that aren't perfect or that we don't like.

Stress and bad sleep predate social media.

But IMO that does not explain graphs like THIS. The graph is even more alarming isolated for females if you look that up, and that spike happens in that same time frame when you ask about depression, feelings of isolation, and anxiety. Like you said, stress and poor sleep has been in existence forever, something should explain that severe rise.

 

[Gally]

Stress and bad sleep predate social media.

While they pre-date social media it doesn't mean that phone usage and social media aren't jumping to the front of the line of causes that significantly exacerbate the issues. You seem to discount them because depression/stress has always been around. I think they are huge influences that have exponentially increased the issues.

 

[msudaisy26]

Stress and bad sleep predate social media.

While they pre-date social media it doesn't mean that phone usage and social media aren't jumping to the front of the line of causes that significantly exacerbate the issues. You seem to discount them because depression/stress has always been around. I think they are huge influences that have exponentially increased the issues.

I don't think they are huge. I think they contribute, and just like everything else that contributes we have to try to do better. We aren't getting rid of jobs because they.are stressful.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Cranky old man rant right there

For sure. He is still correct.

Yep

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Reverse Improvement

Have to say that I agree with a bunch of these examples.

I listen to Maher a lot and agree with him more often than not, but this just came off as very get off my lawn or back in my day. I don't agree with him.

In some instances, technology is making simple things harder than they need to be. I think there's some merit to that for sure. Yes, get off my lawn, but I like a menu that I can hold and read vs a QR code. I don't like being tethered to my damn phone all the time.

Why does my stove need to hooked up to WiFi? A year later, I still have t set it up

 

[KarmaPolice]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

 

[BassNBrew]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

Hogwash.

Less homework.
No going to the library for research.
AI writes your papers.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

Hogwash.

Less homework.
No going to the library for research.
AI writes your papers.

This is a yuuuge issue. Teacher friends are dealing with this more and more and it is frustrating for them as they can't be sure students are actually learning core subject matter. This might be what leads idiocracy for reelz.

 

[MAC_32]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

Control what you can control. I can't control the actions of others. I control my own and (try to) influence those within and outside of my bubble. If others are going to act in our corporate overlords best financial interests, no matter the reason, isn't a damn thing I can do about it - free will, you do you. What I do works for me - it generally promotes a healthy diet, allows me to sustain exercise, minimize stress, and sleep well - all of which feeds into each other (pun unintended). If an outside force is tying someone to a device then my recommendation is to pursue changes to the environment, so they're no longer a slave to that device.

And on that note, time to go run.

 

[HomerSimpson]

My neighbor works for Adobe.

I asked her after her Holiday party she invited me to at the Chase Center in SF how much they paid Katy Perry to perform? She said $1Million dollars. (Katy put on a good show)

But then I was like... what does Adobe do? Like every update i get feels worse, like PDF's were fine 8 years ago...?

She said, "they just make changes to justify their jobs"

 

[Buckna]

One thing that annoys me now and correct me if I am wrong. Nothing to do with updates.

When Sirius Radio first came out and I have had it since the early days. I thought the selling point was no commercials, no talking, just the music you choose. Now the DJs are just like the old DJs, in fact they are the old DJs, telling stories, talking about what they did over the weekend, giving tidbits of info about a band all between songs.

I go to different channels and they are all doing it. Has that always been the case?

Depended on the channel & program host. Some would play sets of music, then tell the listener who they played and may add that one of the artists is going on tour. Others - like Phlash on the 60s channel - would take calls from listeners for a request and ask them where they're from, etc.... Maybe on some of the channels I didn't listen to, they chattered more.

I came over from the XM side (I think I got them in 2003) and that's how I remember it being back before the merger. I don't know what Sirius was doing back then. I know that, post-merger, thye whole thing got more FM-like in certain areas.

They’ve had to differentiate and provide some value besides just playing music with no commercials because streaming technology made music a commodity. I can just stream Spotify or Apple Music or tons of others if thats what I want to do.

I don’t find them nearly as horrible/annoying as regular radio. Most of the time its more like you described, quick tidbits about bands, notes about new albums coming out or tours or special shows happening. Occasionally they have some big personalities (like Madison on Alt Nation or Sluggo on 1st Wave) that sometimes talk too much but other times talk about some cool stories or info I didn’t know. Or guest artist dj’s do special channels or shows that will give a lot of old stories or information from back in the day. Like the other day I heard one where Lenny Kravitz was talking about how “Are You Going to Go My Way” bombed initially but the music video saved it when it blew up on MTV (won best video that year IIRC.)

 

[Gally]

Granted, it looks spectacular, Amazon is using some sort of next generation cameras and the picture is stunningly good.

This has not been my experience at all. Of all the streaming services for live sports, TNF on Amazon has been the lowest quality of all of them. The picture goes in and out of clarity often and the rewind, pause, fast forward functions are terrible. It's not my wifi or internet connections either as YTTV, Hulu, etc all stream with a quality picture and doesn't have the same quality issues that TNF on Amazon has.

What's your secret?

 

[Sullie]

Granted, it looks spectacular, Amazon is using some sort of next generation cameras and the picture is stunningly good.

This has not been my experience at all. Of all the streaming services for live sports, TNF on Amazon has been the lowest quality of all of them. The picture goes in and out of clarity often and the rewind, pause, fast forward functions are terrible. It's not my wifi or internet connections either as YTTV, Hulu, etc all stream with a quality picture and doesn't have the same quality issues that TNF on Amazon has.

What's your secret?

Fast internet and mesh wifi?

 

[Gally]

Granted, it looks spectacular, Amazon is using some sort of next generation cameras and the picture is stunningly good.

This has not been my experience at all. Of all the streaming services for live sports, TNF on Amazon has been the lowest quality of all of them. The picture goes in and out of clarity often and the rewind, pause, fast forward functions are terrible. It's not my wifi or internet connections either as YTTV, Hulu, etc all stream with a quality picture and doesn't have the same quality issues that TNF on Amazon has.

What's your secret?

Fast internet and mesh wifi?

I have no issues with any other service. Just Amazon. I would think if my speed is good enough to not have issues on every other streaming service but not Amazon that points to an Amazon issue. Couple that with others having similar issues makes me think Amazon has an issue.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Granted, it looks spectacular, Amazon is using some sort of next generation cameras and the picture is stunningly good.

This has not been my experience at all. Of all the streaming services for live sports, TNF on Amazon has been the lowest quality of all of them. The picture goes in and out of clarity often and the rewind, pause, fast forward functions are terrible. It's not my wifi or internet connections either as YTTV, Hulu, etc all stream with a quality picture and doesn't have the same quality issues that TNF on Amazon has.

What's your secret?

The Prime Thursday Night games look amazing to me and better video quality than CBS, FOX or NBC games.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

My neighbor works for Adobe.

I asked her after her Holiday party she invited me to at the Chase Center in SF how much they paid Katy Perry to perform? She said $1Million dollars. (Katy put on a good show)

But then I was like... what does Adobe do? Like every update i get feels worse, like PDF's were fine 8 years ago...?

She said, "they just make changes to justify their jobs"

This is everything. The maroons that run my city change the lane pattern on my street every 8 years or so. It’s happened 3 times since I’ve lived here. They change it, realize it sucks and then change it back. It has to cost a few hundred grand. SOOOOOO stupid.

One of the managers at my work does nothing but institute and change policy. He’s constantly reinventing the wheel. Good times.

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

Hogwash.

Less homework.
No going to the library for research.
AI writes your papers.

Okay.

 

[pollardsvision]

He could have done an entire episode about cars.
This week, some Jeep owners being treated to extended warranty ads on the infotainment screen at every stop light with no way to stop it

Since it's coming through the stupid infotainment screen, I assume it doesn't violate Ford's patent for pumping ads through the speakers whether the driver wants them or not.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Now get off my lawn!!!

 

[Mitchie]

Granted, it looks spectacular, Amazon is using some sort of next generation cameras and the picture is stunningly good.

This has not been my experience at all. Of all the streaming services for live sports, TNF on Amazon has been the lowest quality of all of them. The picture goes in and out of clarity often and the rewind, pause, fast forward functions are terrible. It's not my wifi or internet connections either as YTTV, Hulu, etc all stream with a quality picture and doesn't have the same quality issues that TNF on Amazon has.

What's your secret?

The Prime Thursday Night games look amazing to me and better video quality than CBS, FOX or NBC games.

personally that means nothing to me esp. it takes me 10 minutes to change the channel

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

 

[msudaisy26]

get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I wanted to quote this separately, because I feel it merits it's own response.

I would tend to agree with you if it was a finished product, but it is always improving and changing. The only problem is we probably won't be here to see all the advancements. Part of that is because we are slow to change especially if the current version is profitable.

 

[BeTheMatch]

He could have done an entire episode about cars.
This week, some Jeep owners being treated to extended warranty ads on the infotainment screen at every stop light with no way to stop it

Since it's coming through the stupid infotainment screen, I assume it doesn't violate Ford's patent for pumping ads through the speakers whether the driver wants them or not.

I would take it back.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I haven't read the whole thread but unlike mac I actually did watch the video so I can properly formulate my opinion instead of speculating, swinging and missing the point spectacularly. . . sorry mac, just watch the video it's like 8 1/2 minutes long.

1.) I'm sorry but he's wrong about YouTube TV, in fact, for sports YTT is pretty much perfect. Hands down a better experience than cable, DirecTV or any other provider I've ever had, there's no comparison. The other thing is, I don't know if he actually knows how to operate a remote control but one can quite literally, record EVERTHING by simply selecting it, select record every NFL game and it's there forever. I don't know how it could possibly get any easier nor better than that. No hard drive to fill up, no equipment to maintain, etc. The ability to record everything you could possibly ever want is amazing. Lastly, not to beat down a point, but in YouTube TV, I don't know why he doesn't know this, but you can switch to a live sporting event you weren't watching (pick one, any one of them) and catch up on the action by watching the highlights that happened previously in that sporting event commercial free. . . quoting project farm. . very impressive!

Just a note regarding Youtube TV - I think Maher's point about recording is we used to be able to FF through commercials - for example when we used VCR tapes to record sporting events back in the day and even the early streaming services. I don't have YoutbubeTV but if its like the other streaming services I have, when watching on delay the program has non-skippable commercials we're forced to watch even if its not live. I understand why they do that of course. Also, as an aside, there was some news today about YoutubeTV dropping Paramount/CBS, at least for now while they work on a contract. That could mean no Masters, no March Madness and no Champions League soccer for YTTV subscribers even while the cost is going up.

 

[BassNBrew]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

How are things harder when you get to knock out two years of courses in high school. Poster child for things being easier. We had to sign up for AP classes and then pay and pass an AP test. You'd be lucky to work two of these into your class schedule. I crushed high school physics, we college physics at an engineering school was a whole lot different. Masters degrees used to be a two year full time requirement, my son knocked on his online part time in two years.

The whole college thing comes down to the number of applicants. With the drop in birth rates and college applications, it will soon start shifting the other direction. Yeah it's harder to get into Harvard now than then. That's a function of there being 2x the high schools. It's also harder to get into the NFL and NBA if they don't expand as fast as the population is growing. That said, it's much easier to get into IT, healthcare, and alternative energy than it was two decades ago.

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

How are things harder when you get to knock out two years of courses in high school. Poster child for things being easier. We had to sign up for AP classes and then pay and pass an AP test. You'd be lucky to work two of these into your class schedule. I crushed high school physics, we college physics at an engineering school was a whole lot different. Masters degrees used to be a two year full time requirement, my son knocked on his online part time in two years.

The whole college thing comes down to the number of applicants. With the drop in birth rates and college applications, it will soon start shifting the other direction. Yeah it's harder to get into Harvard now than then. That's a function of there being 2x the high schools. It's also harder to get into the NFL and NBA if they don't expand as fast as the population is growing. That said, it's much easier to get into IT, healthcare, and alternative energy than it was two decades ago.

Comparing apples and oranges.I have three degrees and have been in education for almost 20 years, the last 10 as an administrator. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[KarmaPolice]

get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I wanted to quote this separately, because I feel it merits it's own response.

I would tend to agree with you if it was a finished product, but it is always improving and changing. The only problem is we probably won't be here to see all the advancements. Part of that is because we are slow to change especially if the current version is profitable.

I wish I agreed here. I think AI is the next wave (yes, it is here, but you know what I mean). IMO that will make things way worse, and from what I've been listening to and reading the last year or so we are closer than expected here too. I've heard 3-5years from some sources. Not sure if you are talking about something else that we might not be here for, but that is on my mind lately as I read news.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded? Is your position that you think a 3.9 is much harder to achieve now vs decades ago, and so much so that it accounts for most of that rise in stress/depression/isolation reported?

You said you are in education - is there something I am not thinking about that happened in the 00s that you could point to that would explain that fast spike in those types of feelings reported? Change in policy, testing, admissions requirements, etc..

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded? Is your position that you think a 3.9 is much harder to achieve now vs decades ago, and so much so that it accounts for most of that rise in stress/depression/isolation reported?

You said you are in education - is there something I am not thinking about that happened in the 00s that you could point to that would explain that fast spike in those types of feelings reported? Change in policy, testing, admissions requirements, etc..

In the 50's being a millionaire meant you were rich, like really rich. Now it means you are comfortable, but billionaires are really rich.

Graduating with a 3.9 meant you did really well school, 20ish years ago. Now 4.2 + is that number. 3.9 is still good.

There are a ton of factors other than social media. I will name a few. Social acceptance, people used to keep more quiet about being depressed. Resources, it is easier to get help. Using it as a crutch to get attention or sympathy. Obviously this a small sample size, but in the 10 years I was in the classroom I had less than five students come to me for help with depression. In the last 10 years I have seen 100's of students/parents ask for help. I can't prove it, but I would bet more than half of them are using that as an excuse to get sympathy/forgiveness for their bad behavior or grades. Covid also did a number on kids.

 

[Marauder]

I haven't read the whole thread but unlike mac I actually did watch the video so I can properly formulate my opinion instead of speculating, swinging and missing the point spectacularly. . . sorry mac, just watch the video it's like 8 1/2 minutes long.

1.) I'm sorry but he's wrong about YouTube TV, in fact, for sports YTT is pretty much perfect. Hands down a better experience than cable, DirecTV or any other provider I've ever had, there's no comparison. The other thing is, I don't know if he actually knows how to operate a remote control but one can quite literally, record EVERTHING by simply selecting it, select record every NFL game and it's there forever. I don't know how it could possibly get any easier nor better than that. No hard drive to fill up, no equipment to maintain, etc. The ability to record everything you could possibly ever want is amazing. Lastly, not to beat down a point, but in YouTube TV, I don't know why he doesn't know this, but you can switch to a live sporting event you weren't watching (pick one, any one of them) and catch up on the action by watching the highlights that happened previously in that sporting event commercial free. . . quoting project farm. . very impressive!

Just a note regarding Youtube TV - I think Maher's point about recording is we used to be able to FF through commercials - for example when we used VCR tapes to record sporting events back in the day and even the early streaming services. I don't have YoutbubeTV but if its like the other streaming services I have, when watching on delay the program has non-skippable commercials we're forced to watch even if its not live. I understand why they do that of course. Also, as an aside, there was some news today about YoutubeTV dropping Paramount/CBS, at least for now while they work on a contract. That could mean no Masters, no March Madness and no Champions League soccer for YTTV subscribers even while the cost is going up.

If you're watching a show on demand, you can't FF through commercials. If your watching a show you recorded you can.

 

[MAC_32]

How are things harder

Not enough hours in the day to unpack this, and impossible to do it succinctly, but it is much harder to be a kid / young adult now vs 20, 30, 40+ years ago. If you intend to go somewhere anyway.

 

[Sand]

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

That's easy. The goal of these companies in all these cases is to increase primary revenue with sticky subscriptions/ads or secondary revenue with hoovering up as much personal data as possible to either deliver ads or sell said data off. That's it. All of it.

But IMO that does not explain graphs like THIS. The graph is even more alarming isolated for females if you look that up, and that spike happens in that same time frame when you ask about depression, feelings of isolation, and anxiety. Like you said, stress and poor sleep has been in existence forever, something should explain that severe rise.

The rise is definitely not good. But, in general, suicide rates among our young men is much higher than for females. (And, for that matter, boys have higher incarcerations rates, higher dropout rates, lower grades, less high school diplomas, bacherlor's degrees, master's degrees, PhDs, lower starting salaries, and the list goes on)

Why does my stove need to hooked up to WiFi? A year later, I still have t set it up

Hoovering up your data. That's all it is.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

So not even my experience comparing my cohort to my children's. Miles, eons away.

 

[Sand]

How are things harder

Not enough hours in the day to unpack this, and impossible to do it succinctly, but it is much harder to be a kid / young adult now vs 20, 30, 40+ years ago. If you intend to go somewhere anyway.

Mostly that the internet remembers forever, IMO. You can't screw up and hope to outlive your mistakes.

 

[Max Power]

I think kids today have it easier thanks to the amount of information at their fingertips. When my parents purchased a set of encyclopedias in the 80s, it was a game changer for me.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

That's easy. The goal of these companies in all these cases is to increase primary revenue with sticky subscriptions/ads or secondary revenue with hoovering up as much personal data as possible to either deliver ads or sell said data off. That's it. All of it.

But IMO that does not explain graphs like THIS. The graph is even more alarming isolated for females if you look that up, and that spike happens in that same time frame when you ask about depression, feelings of isolation, and anxiety. Like you said, stress and poor sleep has been in existence forever, something should explain that severe rise.

The rise is definitely not good. But, in general, suicide rates among our young men is much higher than for females. (And, for that matter, boys have higher incarcerations rates, higher dropout rates, lower grades, less high school diplomas, bacherlor's degrees, master's degrees, PhDs, lower starting salaries, and the list goes on)

Why does my stove need to hooked up to WiFi? A year later, I still have t set it up

Hoovering up your data. That's all it is.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

So not even my experience comparing my cohort to my children's. Miles, eons away.

Interesting. I will have to re-look at stats. I thought I've always seen that females were much higher in these stats, but we could be looking at slightly different stats? (attempt vs. completed?)

 

[KarmaPolice]

How are things harder

Not enough hours in the day to unpack this, and impossible to do it succinctly, but it is much harder to be a kid / young adult now vs 20, 30, 40+ years ago. If you intend to go somewhere anyway.

Mostly that the internet remembers forever, IMO. You can't screw up and hope to outlive your mistakes.

I think this gets to my thinking as well. Most of the examples that I think of where I definitely agree with MAC and daisy are still things that revolve around the tech. Your posts are forever, you pictures are out there for all to see, the bullying, etc.. All those areas are 100% a reason I wouldn't want to be a kid now, but that is also leading to these bad stats we are talking about.

From my experience the actual school/classwork portion feels a bit easier and way more forgiving about due dates, retakes, extra credit (this is where daisy's 4.2 gpa comes into play), things like that. I just still don't think it's SO much worse that it explains more than a fraction of the psychological downside we see at that 2010 time frame.

 

[bigbottom]

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

That's easy. The goal of these companies in all these cases is to increase primary revenue with sticky subscriptions/ads or secondary revenue with hoovering up as much personal data as possible to either deliver ads or sell said data off. That's it. All of it.

But IMO that does not explain graphs like THIS. The graph is even more alarming isolated for females if you look that up, and that spike happens in that same time frame when you ask about depression, feelings of isolation, and anxiety. Like you said, stress and poor sleep has been in existence forever, something should explain that severe rise.

The rise is definitely not good. But, in general, suicide rates among our young men is much higher than for females. (And, for that matter, boys have higher incarcerations rates, higher dropout rates, lower grades, less high school diplomas, bacherlor's degrees, master's degrees, PhDs, lower starting salaries, and the list goes on)

Why does my stove need to hooked up to WiFi? A year later, I still have t set it up

Hoovering up your data. That's all it is.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

So not even my experience comparing my cohort to my children's. Miles, eons away.

Interesting. I will have to re-look at stats. I thought I've always seen that females were much higher in these stats, but we could be looking at slightly different stats? (attempt vs. completed?)

Veterans are committing suicide at about 2x the rate of non-veterans and are almost exclusively male. I suspect that impacts the numbers.

 

[BassNBrew]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded? Is your position that you think a 3.9 is much harder to achieve now vs decades ago, and so much so that it accounts for most of that rise in stress/depression/isolation reported?

You said you are in education - is there something I am not thinking about that happened in the 00s that you could point to that would explain that fast spike in those types of feelings reported? Change in policy, testing, admissions requirements, etc..

In the 50's being a millionaire meant you were rich, like really rich. Now it means you are comfortable, but billionaires are really rich.

Graduating with a 3.9 meant you did really well school, 20ish years ago. Now 4.2 + is that number. 3.9 is still good.

There are a ton of factors other than social media. I will name a few. Social acceptance, people used to keep more quiet about being depressed. Resources, it is easier to get help. Using it as a crutch to get attention or sympathy. Obviously this a small sample size, but in the 10 years I was in the classroom I had less than five students come to me for help with depression. In the last 10 years I have seen 100's of students/parents ask for help. I can't prove it, but I would bet more than half of them are using that as an excuse to get sympathy/forgiveness for their bad behavior or grades. Covid also did a number on kids.

LOL...WTF is a 4.2. Back in the day you have to be perfect to get a 4.0. Competition to get an A in Calculus was brutal. Classes weren't weighted so you worked your butt off in Honors/AP classes otherwise karen in Home Ec was going to eat your scholarship lunch.

 

[jwb]

One thing that annoys me now and correct me if I am wrong. Nothing to do with updates.

When Sirius Radio first came out and I have had it since the early days. I thought the selling point was no commercials, no talking, just the music you choose. Now the DJs are just like the old DJs, in fact they are the old DJs, telling stories, talking about what they did over the weekend, giving tidbits of info about a band all between songs.

I go to different channels and they are all doing it. Has that always been the case?

Depended on the channel & program host. Some would play sets of music, then tell the listener who they played and may add that one of the artists is going on tour. Others - like Phlash on the 60s channel - would take calls from listeners for a request and ask them where they're from, etc.... Maybe on some of the channels I didn't listen to, they chattered more.

I came over from the XM side (I think I got them in 2003) and that's how I remember it being back before the merger. I don't know what Sirius was doing back then. I know that, post-merger, thye whole thing got more FM-like in certain areas.

They’ve had to differentiate and provide some value besides just playing music with no commercials because streaming technology made music a commodity. I can just stream Spotify or Apple Music or tons of others if thats what I want to do.

I don’t find them nearly as horrible/annoying as regular radio. Most of the time its more like you described, quick tidbits about bands, notes about new albums coming out or tours or special shows happening. Occasionally they have some big personalities (like Madison on Alt Nation or Sluggo on 1st Wave) that sometimes talk too much but other times talk about some cool stories or info I didn’t know. Or guest artist dj’s do special channels or shows that will give a lot of old stories or information from back in the day. Like the other day I heard one where Lenny Kravitz was talking about how “Are You Going to Go My Way” bombed initially but the music video saved it when it blew up on MTV (won best video that year IIRC.)

I kind of appreciate the DJ's. And I like how, for example, the 70's station sounds like a 70's station, complete with the DJ sometimes talking over the song's intro.

 

[MAC_32]

How are things harder

Not enough hours in the day to unpack this, and impossible to do it succinctly, but it is much harder to be a kid / young adult now vs 20, 30, 40+ years ago. If you intend to go somewhere anyway.

Mostly that the internet remembers forever, IMO. You can't screw up and hope to outlive your mistakes.

That was one variable that floated through my head, but not the biggest one.

We all have access to more information quickly than those before us, which has raised the bar, which is theoretically a good thing. But then I think of the inflationary environment beset on our young people that those before them didn't have to tackle and its relative impact vs wages. A young person has to work that much harder to maybe be in a position to follow a similar trajectory as their parents. Many don't have the capacities / capabilities to do that then as a result we have tanking birth rates and an unmotivated young work force.

Way more than just that though.

 

[BassNBrew]

How are things harder

Not enough hours in the day to unpack this, and impossible to do it succinctly, but it is much harder to be a kid / young adult now vs 20, 30, 40+ years ago. If you intend to go somewhere anyway.

My kids seem to be navigating it well. All of them and their gf's are in the $100-$150k range. One didn't complete college and is probably doing the best. Started at Bathfitters knowing nothing and willing to learn and now is a GM for a home builder. So many opportunities out there and you can actually find out about them if you aren't connected because of the internet. The one thing they have in common is not be afraid to swing and miss. Keep plugging away at opportunities because it might the the 100th swing that actually connects. We probably had to invest an hour in each swing re-typing the resume/cover letter for each ad we saw in print.

 

[Harry Frogfish]

Is there a more awesome poster in here than bigbottom? Oh sure, there are comparable but this guy is up there. SUPER elite.

Thanks for your contributions and time, much appreciated and lucky to have you still around.

 

[Sand]

Veterans are committing suicide at about 2x the rate of non-veterans and are almost exclusively male. I suspect that impacts the numbers.

Negatory - the ratios hold below military age. Here is a great link with a chart that shows the disparities. It's absolutely staggering and it's all over the map (I forgot about the substance abuse, infant mortality, homelessness, homicide, occupational deaths, and others). The quote "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation" has never been more true than now.

• For every 100 females ages 15 to 19 who commit suicide there are 293 males.
  Source: Centers for Disease Control
• For every 100 females ages 20 to 24 who commit suicide there are 464 males.
  Source: Centers for Disease Control
• For every 100 females ages 25-29 who commit suicide there are 418 males.
  Source: Centers for Disease Control

2021 Update: “For Every 100 Girls…..” Part I

In 2011, Thomas G. Mortenson, senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education in Washington, D.C. and independent higher education policy analyst, put together and published the 100+ item list “For Every 100 Girls….” on Education Week. In an email, Tom...

www.aei.org

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I think kids today have it easier thanks to the amount of information at their fingertips. When my parents purchased a set of encyclopedias in the 80s, it was a game changer for me.

having to go to the public library for source material was the WORST

 

[Harry Frogfish]

So guess where Bill Maher's little hideaway is? Great spot, btw.

 

[bigbottom]

Is there a more awesome poster in here than bigbottom? Oh sure, there are comparable but this guy is up there. SUPER elite.

Thanks for your contributions and time, much appreciated and lucky to have you still around.

I certainly don’t deserve this at all, but boy do I appreciate the kind words. Seriously, you made my day. This community is truly amazing, yourself included, and I’m so humbled to be a part of it.

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded? Is your position that you think a 3.9 is much harder to achieve now vs decades ago, and so much so that it accounts for most of that rise in stress/depression/isolation reported?

You said you are in education - is there something I am not thinking about that happened in the 00s that you could point to that would explain that fast spike in those types of feelings reported? Change in policy, testing, admissions requirements, etc..

In the 50's being a millionaire meant you were rich, like really rich. Now it means you are comfortable, but billionaires are really rich.

Graduating with a 3.9 meant you did really well school, 20ish years ago. Now 4.2 + is that number. 3.9 is still good.

There are a ton of factors other than social media. I will name a few. Social acceptance, people used to keep more quiet about being depressed. Resources, it is easier to get help. Using it as a crutch to get attention or sympathy. Obviously this a small sample size, but in the 10 years I was in the classroom I had less than five students come to me for help with depression. In the last 10 years I have seen 100's of students/parents ask for help. I can't prove it, but I would bet more than half of them are using that as an excuse to get sympathy/forgiveness for their bad behavior or grades. Covid also did a number on kids.

LOL...WTF is a 4.2. Back in the day you have to be perfect to get a 4.0. Competition to get an A in Calculus was brutal. Classes weren't weighted so you worked your butt off in Honors/AP classes otherwise karen in Home Ec was going to eat your scholarship lunch.

What are you even talking about. None of that is true. A kid with a 4.0 taking shop, home economics, and four years of gym wasn't taking an academic scholarship from someone with a 3.5 with all AP classes. That is just ridiculous.

Grade points can go up as high as 5.0. Look up IB, this is an extremely difficult program, much harder than AP and accelerated. It is weighted higher because getting an A in an IB course is tough.