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Bill Nye To Debate Creationist At Creation Museum February 4th (1 Viewer)

When I was a kid, my parents were friends with an Auschwitz survivor named Mel Mermelstein. Mel was a well known Orange County businessman who was obsessed with Holocaust deniers. He traveled around the country (and the world) debating these deniers in public forums. The deniers would often give these challenges- "prove that there were gas chambers and I will pay you $10,000" etc. And Mel would accept every challenge. In doing so, he probably made things worse: by appearing in these debates, he granted these idiots a sort of legitimacy: giving off the impression that the Holocaust was open to question. Finally, when Alan Dershowitz openly criticized Mel in a book, Mel stopped.

 
If just one person sees the absurdity in attitudes like Ham's (who didn't before) it is worth it.
This is maybe the only thread that involves religion where I completely agree with you

 
Yep. That was him. My parents went to his house for dinner once. They told me that the wall facing the dining room was filled with Holocaust photos that you had to look at while you were dining. I always thought that was REALLY strange...
 
What do you mean by this? They fail to understand the basic premis of the theory? They fail to understand individual aspects of the theory? They attribute things to it that aren't really part of the theory?
If you listen to a Young Earth Creationist talk about the theory of evolutionary biology, or "Darwinism," as he'll likely call it, he'll almost unfailingly say something that mistakes cosmology for evolution (e.g., "evolutionary theory says that something must have been created from nothing"), or that exhibits no concept of speciation ("if humans come from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"), or that creates completely false dichotomies that aren't theoretically cogent (such as between "microevolution" and "macroevolution,"* or between "observational science" and "historical science"), or that completely misrepresents how evolution works (e.g., "You can't cross-breed a dog and a cat and get a dat!", as if that's an argument against evolution; or "Mutations can't create new information, they can only subtract from the information that's already there," as if gene duplication doesn't increase genetic material, point mutations don't introduce novelty, and their combination haven't been shown to increase genetic variation in a population).

And so on. Obviously, I can't point out every mistake that YECs tend to make that betray a lack of understanding of evolutionary theory. But in my experience, if you wind a YEC up and let him go, when he talks about evolution, he is bound to say something that shows a lack of understanding of some basics.

____

*There are contexts where it makes sense to distinguish between microevolution and macroevolution, as appropriately defined, just as there are contexts where it makes sense to distinguish between inches and feet. But it makes no sense to say that you believe in inches but not in feet: they're fundamentally the same thing, just in different units.
Thanks. All of that sounds along the lines of "Most YECs don't appear to have studied evolution or even taken the time to learn the basics of the theory." I think that type of thing creeps up in many debates in life. Someone who hasn't mastered the basics of a topic will tell an expert that they are wrong.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
IvanKaramazov said:
(HULK) said:
So, expanding on #9, why is it possible for God to have no orgin but its not possible for other things, like say the universe/system that led to the creation of life via random chance?
I thought the idea behind the big bang is that the universe wasn't always "just there."

But I agree that logically that could have been the case. I also think "just by chance" is a perfectly fine explanation of where the first single-celled organism from.
We don't know what was/wasn't there.
That's not true. If the big bang theory is correct, then we know that our universe, as we understand it today, did not exist at that moment. Any theory that involves an expanding or shrinking universe is putting that universe (not eternal) into a fundamentally different category that Christians assign to God (eternal). That's why it's a non sequitur to ask why the universe required a creator but God didn't.

A much better response to Person #9 would be to show why a single-celled organism might have popped into existence by chance (or some other process). Trying to turn it into an argument about how a God required a creator isn't going to go anywhere since eternal existence is one of the qualities that #9 presumably ascribes to God in the first place.
You are then claiming to know that there was nothing before the Big Bang and I'd have to ask you to prove that. While it may not be the universe as we now it, that does not mean there was nothing.
Not at all. I have no idea what was before the big bang. Maybe it was nothing, maybe it was some other universe that had collapsed upon itself, or maybe it was something else. All I know is that the moment just before the big bang (or maybe at the exact commencement of the big bang -- I'm not sure whether t or t-1 is the right reference point here), whatever was there wasn't the universe as we know it today.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
IvanKaramazov said:
(HULK) said:
So, expanding on #9, why is it possible for God to have no orgin but its not possible for other things, like say the universe/system that led to the creation of life via random chance?
I thought the idea behind the big bang is that the universe wasn't always "just there."

But I agree that logically that could have been the case. I also think "just by chance" is a perfectly fine explanation of where the first single-celled organism from.
We don't know what was/wasn't there.
That's not true. If the big bang theory is correct, then we know that our universe, as we understand it today, did not exist at that moment. Any theory that involves an expanding or shrinking universe is putting that universe (not eternal) into a fundamentally different category that Christians assign to God (eternal). That's why it's a non sequitur to ask why the universe required a creator but God didn't.

A much better response to Person #9 would be to show why a single-celled organism might have popped into existence by chance (or some other process). Trying to turn it into an argument about how a God required a creator isn't going to go anywhere since eternal existence is one of the qualities that #9 presumably ascribes to God in the first place.
You are then claiming to know that there was nothing before the Big Bang and I'd have to ask you to prove that. While it may not be the universe as we now it, that does not mean there was nothing.
Not at all. I have no idea what was before the big bang. Maybe it was nothing, maybe it was some other universe that had collapsed upon itself, or maybe it was something else. All I know is that the moment just before the big bang (or maybe at the exact commencement of the big bang -- I'm not sure whether t or t-1 is the right reference point here), whatever was there wasn't the universe as we know it today.
Maybe the monkey-man, lizard boy evolved from the sky then crawled out of the ocean lolz...

 
http://debatelive.org/

Its over 2 1/2 hours. I don't think I can listen to Ken deny clear evidence with the same argument for that long ...
I watched the opening statements and low and behold Nye gets almost zero applause so we know the audience is loaded with Ham supporters. It makes the whole thing even more insane to me.

I would like to get everyone who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and give them a handful of states where they can all go and live and let the rest of us proceed in peace.

But I will also say that the FFA as a whole is not always the best reflection of the country at large. The fact that so many people believe in Creationism is frightening and I think it says a lot about human beings in general and if we were all being really honest with ourselves...

I'll ask this question to the ones in here that think they are superior in just about every way especially when it comes to critical thinking and intelligence. Would you like to live in a place where everyone is very well educated and the majority of folks did not believe in the invisible man in the sky? They might be 2 separate issues but these debates are eye openers.

 
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What do you mean by this? They fail to understand the basic premis of the theory? They fail to understand individual aspects of the theory? They attribute things to it that aren't really part of the theory?
If you listen to a Young Earth Creationist talk about the theory of evolutionary biology, or "Darwinism," as he'll likely call it, he'll almost unfailingly say something that mistakes cosmology for evolution (e.g., "evolutionary theory says that something must have been created from nothing"), or that exhibits no concept of speciation ("if humans come from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"), or that creates completely false dichotomies that aren't theoretically cogent (such as between "microevolution" and "macroevolution,"* or between "observational science" and "historical science"), or that completely misrepresents how evolution works (e.g., "You can't cross-breed a dog and a cat and get a dat!", as if that's an argument against evolution; or "Mutations can't create new information, they can only subtract from the information that's already there," as if gene duplication doesn't increase genetic material, point mutations don't introduce novelty, and their combination haven't been shown to increase genetic variation in a population).

And so on. Obviously, I can't point out every mistake that YECs tend to make that betray a lack of understanding of evolutionary theory. But in my experience, if you wind a YEC up and let him go, when he talks about evolution, he is bound to say something that shows a lack of understanding of some basics.

____

*There are contexts where it makes sense to distinguish between microevolution and macroevolution, as appropriately defined, just as there are contexts where it makes sense to distinguish between inches and feet. But it makes no sense to say that you believe in inches but not in feet: they're fundamentally the same thing, just in different units.
You have reigned as the best poster on these boards since before the Big Bang. Always enjoy your stuff, and always learn something. :thumbup:

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
On The Rocks said:
babydemon90 said:
Thing is - even Ken Ham, On The Rocks, whoever - no one believed 100% of the Bible is literally true.
I do.
In some places, it's pretty obvious that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. The New Testament refers to Jesus as a "rock," for example. That's figurative, not literal. In other places, like Genesis 1-3, it's obvious to some (including me) that it's meant to be taken figuratively as an allegory, while it's obvious to others that it's meant to be taken literally as history.

But I don't think anyone believes that everything is meant to be taken literally, including all the parables and stuff.
This is my problem with the bible. What you consider to be "pretty obvious", is not to many. The bible is so full of seemingly impossible, vague, and open to interpretation, stories that it cannot possibly be used as an explanation for anything. What is fact, what is allegorical, which parts matter, which parts don't... it all is interpreted differently from religion to religion, and from person to person. Then you have to factor in the multiple translations, the amount of influence that has been exacted on them by the powers that be over time, the material that was left out, the material that was edited.... it's insane. That alone should tell you that it probably isn't the best source for determining where we came from, or why we are here.

I've tried, I truly and honestly have, to see the bible from the perspective of those who have faith. Unfortunately, none of them can agree on it either. It's always struck me as something that is bent and twisted to fit whatever your view or perspective is. I am close friends with 2 people who give sermons regularly for their respective churches, and I've listened to both of them try to explain the factual aspects of the bible. They can't even agree, they both interpret things very differently. Then they stand in front of hundreds of people on Sunday and tell those people what that particular part of the bible means.

So, when someone tries to tell me they know or understand our origins, and that understanding comes from the bible... all I can do is shake my head.
:goodposting: You could be Mene (mini) Me!

 
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http://debatelive.org/

Its over 2 1/2 hours. I don't think I can listen to Ken deny clear evidence with the same argument for that long ...
I watched the opening statements and low and behold Nye gets almost zero applause so we know the audience is loaded with Ham supporters. It makes the whole thing even more insane to me.

I would like to get everyone who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and give them a handful of states where they can all go and live and let the rest of us proceed in peace.
Well of course, it was held at the creation museum.

And there are plenty of crazies that do not believe in a 6000 year old earth. Personally, if we're segregating people off in their own states, I can think of plenty of better criteria then that one. We might lose a lot of productive people....

 
cstu said:
On The Rocks said:
I'm a "young earther" - but I recall someone here on this board at some point opening my mind to the possibility that the earh was created as an "old or mature" earth - similar to Adam being created as a mature adult.

I'm going to watch the debate today, if it's still available for watching onlne.

:blackdot:
Watch this:

What Darwin Never Knew
I'd honestly love to hear a creationist's opinion of this program.
Or don't, whatever.

 
McGarnicle said:
Are there really adults who take stories like Adam and Eve and Noah's ark literally?
We semi-almost elected a president in the last election who believes Jesus is real, is Caucasian, and came to the United States.

 
McGarnicle said:
Are there really adults who take stories like Adam and Eve and Noah's ark literally?
We semi-almost elected a president in the last election who believes Jesus is real, is Caucasian, and came to the United States.
I wonder how many Mormons actually believe that any more.
It's kind of foundational to their beliefs, yes? If you don't believe in Joseph Smith, how can you believe in Mormonism?

 
McGarnicle said:
Are there really adults who take stories like Adam and Eve and Noah's ark literally?
We semi-almost elected a president in the last election who believes Jesus is real, is Caucasian, and came to the United States.
I wonder how many Mormons actually believe that any more.
It's kind of foundational to their beliefs, yes? If you don't believe in Joseph Smith, how can you believe in Mormonism?
The Mormons I know personally are basically Christians who enjoy being part of these special traditions peculiar to the Mormon church- they like the ceremony involved and treat it almost like an ethnicity. Anyhow, that's my impression.
 
Doesn't Obama say he believes "Jesus is real"? Or are we thinking that was just some crap he said to get elected, like being against gay marriage.

The majority of adults in this country believe religious stuff that is pretty insane.

 
http://debatelive.org/

Its over 2 1/2 hours. I don't think I can listen to Ken deny clear evidence with the same argument for that long ...
I watched the opening statements and low and behold Nye gets almost zero applause so we know the audience is loaded with Ham supporters. It makes the whole thing even more insane to me.

I would like to get everyone who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and give them a handful of states where they can all go and live and let the rest of us proceed in peace.
Well of course, it was held at the creation museum.

And there are plenty of crazies that do not believe in a 6000 year old earth. Personally, if we're segregating people off in their own states, I can think of plenty of better criteria then that one. We might lose a lot of productive people....
Nice post BD, I have to take a step back and also acknowledge that I have several very close friends who are devout Christian and although we don't believe in the same religions stuff, everything else is awesome and I would hate to lose them as productive friends.

I get what you're saying and I knew it was at the museum you mentioned. I still would like to separate as many of them as I could from my little corner of the globe. I know it would not be 100% across the board but the folks who believe this, answers a lot of other questions I would have and none of the answers would be good so for me I would still want to try and distance myself from them with a handful of exceptions.

 
Meh. This is pretty much why I didn't watch the debate. link

Last night marked the eve of the great debate between Science Guy Bill Nye and Creationist Ken Ham. Ostensibly, what was being debated were views of the origins of the universe and the development of biological life, with Bill Nye advocating for the Enlightened, evolutionary view of history and Ken Ham arguing the Fundamentalist, creationist position. This is an issue that has been an important one, particularly as one of the nails in the coffin of Far-Right American Christianity. But as the debate edged closer and closer, I began to feel more and more uncomfortable. Something wasn’t sitting right with me.


The amount of hype that I noticed surrounded this debate led me to reflect on it as a kind of bread and circuses, the only endgame of which was to reinforce deeply held ideological beliefs by militant fundamentalists and militant atheists. I began to feel that both camps would be watching to substantiate their own feelings of superiority and commitment to their ideals. I tend to associate far more with liberal Christians and atheists than I do fundamentalists these days, and I noticed the implications by such folks that this would be a debate between the secular, Enlightened, Progressive Science community – the Holders of Truth without Ideological Commitments – and the Religious, backwards, gullible community – the Regressives of Society, Laden with Ideology and Poison. I can’t directly speak to the way that the Creationist camp presented it, but I don’t imagine it was anything but a reversal, portraying themselves as the Faithful bearers of Truth, simply believing the words of the Bible without any particular ideological commitments, while Bill Nye represented the transgressions and hubris of Secular Society and Science.

As the debate aired, and in its aftermath, these observations were reinforced as comments from the secular crowd repeatedly expressed surprise and indignation that Ken Ham was appealing purely to the Bible to make his outrageous claims, unwilling to even countenance some of Nye’s arguments. What is troubling to me here is not so much that Ken Ham was unwilling to dialogue, or that his position is facile and even willfully ignorant. Rather, what troubles me most is that the secular/liberal community, for all its vitriol about Creationists and the idiocy of fundamentalists, was surprised when Ken Ham turned out to be exactly who they tuned in for him to be. He was never going to change his mind, because the debate was never about “science.” (We’ll set aside the fact that Bill Nye was never going to change his mind, either). And such debates can never be about science, because they are far more deeply informed by ideological commitments. And one of the results of deeply held ideological commitments is the belief that one has no ideological commitments, and is simply presenting the plain truth of the matter, open for anyone to see if they’re not stupid.

Let me be clear here: I agree with Bill Nye. I believe Creationism to be not only wrong (and pretty silly) but also harmful.1 I believe that out of a deep commitment to the Christian tradition and a deep reverence for the sacred text of that tradition, which is belittled by the simplistic claims of either fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist atheists who do not allow the text to be challenging, ambiguous, narratival, and alive. But I did not need to watch Bill Nye publicly debate Ken Ham to know that – and neither did anyone else. No one I know who actually tuned in to the debate hadn’t already made up their minds, because the debate was never about our minds.

Finally (and this brings us back to bread and circuses), even if it had been about minds, what the hell does it matter? If Bill Nye had managed to convince every single person who was watching that debate that evolution is the correct way to view history, would our world have changed for the better? Would a belief in the Triumph of Science, in the Progress of Reason, somehow lead to a more just order in which the death penalty in America is abolished? In which the prison-industrial complex and its attendant system of mass incarceration is dismantled? In which there is more public housing for the poor and homeless? Conversely, would Ken Ham’s Creationism, had it changed the hearts and minds of every man, woman, and child in the audience, lead to any sort of Beloved Community? Would it lead to the hungry being fed, the naked being clothed, the thirsty being given drink, the prisoner being visited? Would it lead to the end of militarism, racism, and materialism? No. A thousand times no.

An answer of “yes” to any of my questions posed above betrays an ideological commitment to one of those two camps – which are actually more closely aligned than either of them wish to admit. (Yes, I have my own ideological commitments here. I understand that.) Because an answer of “yes” prioritizes belief over action; abstraction over concreteness. It encourages us to live in our heads and search for the right thing to believe, rather than enter into relationship with the suffering of the world and engage the meaning that bubbles up from underneath. It belies one of the fundamental conceits of modernism – and fundamentalism is born from modernism – that simply knowing the Facts/the Truth is the single most important thing. And while people were watching that debate, patting themselves on the back for being “well-informed” or “faithful” or “on the Right side of History,” millions of men and women and children slept outside on the streets of our cities. People were brutalized by the police. Women inmates were raped by prison guards. Our country continued its use of drone warfare. The Police State expanded. Capitalism infected another soul. The State took another life.

And the Empire doesn’t give a #### what Ken Ham, Bill Nye, or any of its lower classes believe about the nature of biological or human progress.

*1 I am also attempting to make cultural observations here and not indictments of individuals. For his part, Bill Nye seems to be a very solid dude, respectful and intelligent. I do not mean to imply that he was consciously propagating this. Simply, rather, that he was used in this way by the spectacle of the debate.*
 
Finally (and this brings us back to bread and circuses), even if it had been about minds, what the hell does it matter? If Bill Nye had managed to convince every single person who was watching that debate that evolution is the correct way to view history, would our world have changed for the better? Would a belief in the Triumph of Science, in the Progress of Reason, somehow lead to a more just order in which the death penalty in America is abolished? In which the prison-industrial complex and its attendant system of mass incarceration is dismantled? In which there is more public housing for the poor and homeless? Conversely, would Ken Ham’s Creationism, had it changed the hearts and minds of every man, woman, and child in the audience, lead to any sort of Beloved Community? Would it lead to the hungry being fed, the naked being clothed, the thirsty being given drink, the prisoner being visited? Would it lead to the end of militarism, racism, and materialism? No. A thousand times no.


Capitalism infected another soul.
Good grief. :rolleyes:

 
http://debatelive.org/

Its over 2 1/2 hours. I don't think I can listen to Ken deny clear evidence with the same argument for that long ...
I watched the opening statements and low and behold Nye gets almost zero applause so we know the audience is loaded with Ham supporters. It makes the whole thing even more insane to me.

I would like to get everyone who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and give them a handful of states where they can all go and live and let the rest of us proceed in peace.
Well of course, it was held at the creation museum.

And there are plenty of crazies that do not believe in a 6000 year old earth. Personally, if we're segregating people off in their own states, I can think of plenty of better criteria then that one. We might lose a lot of productive people....
I agree. There are people with beliefs that are much more dangerous to society than YEC, like people who vote against gay marriage, or people who are against contraception and women's right to abortion,

 
Finally (and this brings us back to bread and circuses), even if it had been about minds, what the hell does it matter? If Bill Nye had managed to convince every single person who was watching that debate that evolution is the correct way to view history, would our world have changed for the better? Would a belief in the Triumph of Science, in the Progress of Reason, somehow lead to a more just order in which the death penalty in America is abolished? In which the prison-industrial complex and its attendant system of mass incarceration is dismantled? In which there is more public housing for the poor and homeless? Conversely, would Ken Ham’s Creationism, had it changed the hearts and minds of every man, woman, and child in the audience, lead to any sort of Beloved Community? Would it lead to the hungry being fed, the naked being clothed, the thirsty being given drink, the prisoner being visited? Would it lead to the end of militarism, racism, and materialism? No. A thousand times no.


Capitalism infected another soul.
Good grief. :rolleyes:
Capitalism isn't exactly what many Christians consider Christ-like. Especially the way we do it here.

 
http://debatelive.org/

Its over 2 1/2 hours. I don't think I can listen to Ken deny clear evidence with the same argument for that long ...
I watched the opening statements and low and behold Nye gets almost zero applause so we know the audience is loaded with Ham supporters. It makes the whole thing even more insane to me.

I would like to get everyone who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and give them a handful of states where they can all go and live and let the rest of us proceed in peace.
Well of course, it was held at the creation museum.

And there are plenty of crazies that do not believe in a 6000 year old earth. Personally, if we're segregating people off in their own states, I can think of plenty of better criteria then that one. We might lose a lot of productive people....
I agree. There are people with beliefs that are much more dangerous to society than YEC, like people who vote against gay marriage, or people who are against contraception and women's right to abortion,
lol

 
The Mormons I know personally are basically Christians who enjoy being part of these special traditions peculiar to the Mormon church- they like the ceremony involved and treat it almost like an ethnicity. Anyhow, that's my impression.
There are generally two types of Mormons now. The ones converted in the late 20th to 21st centuries that live away from Salt Lake City and take a more modern approach that more closely resembles Christianity that is acceptable in their community, at least outside the temple. And the traditional, inherited and centrally located around Salt Lake City where the Christianity of the community is LDS.

I'm guessing you don't live in Utah.

 
What do you mean by this? They fail to understand the basic premis of the theory? They fail to understand individual aspects of the theory? They attribute things to it that aren't really part of the theory?
If you listen to a Young Earth Creationist talk about the theory of evolutionary biology, or "Darwinism," as he'll likely call it, he'll almost unfailingly say something that mistakes cosmology for evolution (e.g., "evolutionary theory says that something must have been created from nothing"), or that exhibits no concept of speciation ("if humans come from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"), or that creates completely false dichotomies that aren't theoretically cogent (such as between "microevolution" and "macroevolution,"* or between "observational science" and "historical science"), or that completely misrepresents how evolution works (e.g., "You can't cross-breed a dog and a cat and get a dat!", as if that's an argument against evolution; or "Mutations can't create new information, they can only subtract from the information that's already there," as if gene duplication doesn't increase genetic material, point mutations don't introduce novelty, and their combination haven't been shown to increase genetic variation in a population).

And so on. Obviously, I can't point out every mistake that YECs tend to make that betray a lack of understanding of evolutionary theory. But in my experience, if you wind a YEC up and let him go, when he talks about evolution, he is bound to say something that shows a lack of understanding of some basics.

____

*There are contexts where it makes sense to distinguish between microevolution and macroevolution, as appropriately defined, just as there are contexts where it makes sense to distinguish between inches and feet. But it makes no sense to say that you believe in inches but not in feet: they're fundamentally the same thing, just in different units.
Another one: evolution is just "random chance". See also the analogy of a tornado going through a junkyard and assembling a 747.
 
Doesn't Obama say he believes "Jesus is real"? Or are we thinking that was just some crap he said to get elected, like being against gay marriage.

The majority of adults in this country believe religious stuff that is pretty insane.
You can't get elected POTUS without being perceived as believing in Jesus. Considering his mother was an atheist and his grandparents were non-practicing Christians I have extreme doubts that he finally started believing when he moved to Chicago and joined a politically important church.

 
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Doesn't Obama say he believes "Jesus is real"? Or are we thinking that was just some crap he said to get elected, like being against gay marriage.

The majority of adults in this country believe religious stuff that is pretty insane.
You can't get elected POTUS without being perceived as believing in Jesus. Considering his mother was an atheist and his grandparents were non-practicing Christians I have extreme doubts that he finally started believing when he moved to Chicago and joined a politically important church.
So he is a liar, i never saw that one coming....

 
Doesn't Obama say he believes "Jesus is real"? Or are we thinking that was just some crap he said to get elected, like being against gay marriage.

The majority of adults in this country believe religious stuff that is pretty insane.
You can't get elected POTUS without being perceived as believing in Jesus. Considering his mother was an atheist and his grandparents were non-practicing Christians I have extreme doubts that he finally started believing when he moved to Chicago and joined a politically important church.
So he is a liar, i never saw that one coming....
Derp.

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?

 
McGarnicle said:
Are there really adults who take stories like Adam and Eve and Noah's ark literally?
We semi-almost elected a president in the last election who believes Jesus is real, is Caucasian, and came to the United States.
I wonder how many Mormons actually believe that any more.
lds
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

On so many levels.
Agree, and on a similar note, this is why I will never put ay sort of value on what is written in the bible. Sure, everyone will laugh at this guy, but at the same time, how do we know the Bible wasn't written entirely or partially by people as insane as this guy? Religion and the bible were all created by man.

 
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Doesn't Obama say he believes "Jesus is real"? Or are we thinking that was just some crap he said to get elected, like being against gay marriage.

The majority of adults in this country believe religious stuff that is pretty insane.
That was kind of my point (and I wasn't really trying to take a shot at the LDS church, just chose a dogmatic example which may surprise people). That we really shouldn't be shocked that a large portion of people believe is some pretty crazy religious stuff because every four years we vote on a leader that has beliefs similar to those.

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.

 
Pat Robertson chimes in and it's not what you would expect

Talk about friendly fire. Televangelist Pat Robertson is usually in the news for rants about gays or independent women, but on Wednesday night he criticized creationist Ken Ham for debating Bill Nye over evolution. “There ain’t no way that’s possible … To say that it all came about in 6,000 years is just nonsense and I think it’s time we come off of that stuff and say this isn’t possible,” he said. Robertson implored Ham, “Let’s be real, let’s not make a joke of ourselves.” Apparently the feud is not exactly new, as in 2012 Ham attacked Robertson for doubting the young-earth theory of creationists.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/02/06/pat-robertson-shut-up-ken-ham.html
 
When I was a kid, my parents were friends with an Auschwitz survivor named Mel Mermelstein. Mel was a well known Orange County businessman who was obsessed with Holocaust deniers. He traveled around the country (and the world) debating these deniers in public forums. The deniers would often give these challenges- "prove that there were gas chambers and I will pay you $10,000" etc. And Mel would accept every challenge. In doing so, he probably made things worse: by appearing in these debates, he granted these idiots a sort of legitimacy: giving off the impression that the Holocaust was open to question. Finally, when Alan Dershowitz openly criticized Mel in a book, Mel stopped.
This is a valid anecdote. The difference is that Holocaust denial is rooted in hate. Denial of evolution is rooted in an education that doesn't include science. I think there's hope for teaching evolution.

And since this quote kind of ties all this together:

"If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness."

~ Words carved into the cell wall of a Jewish prisoner during the Holocaust
 
McGarnicle said:
Are there really adults who take stories like Adam and Eve and Noah's ark literally?
We semi-almost elected a president in the last election who believes Jesus is real, is Caucasian, and came to the United States.
I wonder how many Mormons actually believe that any more.
Yes. I can't say for sure that Romney is smart, but I bet he doesn't really believe that.

 
When I was a kid, my parents were friends with an Auschwitz survivor named Mel Mermelstein. Mel was a well known Orange County businessman who was obsessed with Holocaust deniers. He traveled around the country (and the world) debating these deniers in public forums. The deniers would often give these challenges- "prove that there were gas chambers and I will pay you $10,000" etc. And Mel would accept every challenge. In doing so, he probably made things worse: by appearing in these debates, he granted these idiots a sort of legitimacy: giving off the impression that the Holocaust was open to question. Finally, when Alan Dershowitz openly criticized Mel in a book, Mel stopped.
This is a valid anecdote. The difference is that Holocaust denial is rooted in hate. Denial of evolution is rooted in an education that doesn't include science. I think there's hope for teaching evolution.

And since this quote kind of ties all this together:

"If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness."

~ Words carved into the cell wall of a Jewish prisoner during the Holocaust
Great quote.

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.
What about it, PeenusMarr?

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.
What about it, PeenusMarr?
Sorry, Ive never bought into the we were all lizard, monkey people that crawled out of the ocean theory. Enjoy that tho, cornelius....

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.
What about it, PeenusMarr?
Sorry, Ive never bought into the we were all lizard, monkey people that crawled out of the ocean theory. Enjoy that tho, cornelius....
How about the injuns were israelites theory? Or Jesus was a white dude theory?

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.
What about it, PeenusMarr?
Sorry, Ive never bought into the we were all lizard, monkey people that crawled out of the ocean theory. Enjoy that tho, cornelius....
How about the injuns were israelites theory? Or Jesus was a white dude theory?
I am pretty sure he looked middle eastern/Jewish instead of caucasion. Just a guess tho. Not real sure what his skin color has to do with anything?

 
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Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.
What about it, PeenusMarr?
Sorry, Ive never bought into the we were all lizard, monkey people that crawled out of the ocean theory. Enjoy that tho, cornelius....
But you buy into the "POOF, you're created!" theory?

 
Isn't there a way to use DNA to determine if native americans are descended from isrealites? I mean, we're all related in some way, but can't we trace lineage somehow?

Smart guys? Can we debunk this Mormon hooey?
It's not a question of "has it been debunked", because that part is easy.

The problem is getting people whose belief systems are rooted in assumptions to change their views based on evidence.

Not going to happen with religious people.
What about it, PeenusMarr?
Sorry, Ive never bought into the we were all lizard, monkey people that crawled out of the ocean theory. Enjoy that tho, cornelius....
Well it seems that you have a 100% firm grasp on what Evolution is. Nothing more to do here.

 

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