Calling Straight Liberal Men to Vote in a Poll (1 Viewer)

[glvsav37]

You're opposed to being labeled "cis"?  Are you similarly opposed to being labeled heterosexual, Caucasian, American, tall, short, brunette, etc.?  Cis is simply a definition of a trait that you do, in fact, possess.

Given by who? 

those other traits (besides hetro) are all visible things. Being labels Cis puts my sexuality out front which in my 47 years on this planet has never been needed. Again, who made this new thing up and why do I have to ok with it. You live in your lebling world, and leave me out of it. 

again, I find it hysterical that the community has no problem labeling me w/o knowing anything about me, but god forbid I slip up and call a (obvious) trans person the wrong thing and I have become public enemy #1. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think a key issue here is the there is a growing segment of people who engage in living a lifestyle that many consider alternative in nature. Transgender as well as identifying as some gender or orientation that is not "culturally normal or easily understandable" and/or living/identifying as cat, dogs or other non-human identities is "their world" however the prevailing sentiment is that because they are ok with it, I must be ok with it or else I am the bigot, uneducated, etc.  

Honestly I dont really care what you do with your lifestyle. But when it crosses into mine in certain ways, and you expect me to automatically be fine with, no questions asked, it is where I have the problem.

Good post, and this is basically where I am.  It truly does not matter to me if people want to live their lives in non-traditional ways as long as it doesn't affect me.  Trans people are fine.  Furries are fine.  People who live on communes are fine.  The weirdos on Life Below Zero are fine.  All of those people are totally a-okay in my book.  Those are not lifestyle choices that I would make, but who cares.  I never asked for anybody's permission to make major life decisions, and there's no particular reason why anybody should ask for mine.

Where I jump off is when we get to "trans women are women" and all the other theological dogma that for some reason we're supposed to sign onto.  That's silly, and it's the type of thing that if you went into a lab for the express purpose of alienating people who want their beliefs to be aligned with surface-level reality, this is the kind of thing you would come up with. 

My personal two cents is that this kind of statement serves as a mechanism by which people who belong to the "correct" tribe can credibly signal their membership to one another.  No rational person outside the tribe would ever arrive at this position on their own, but fealty to that idea is very strongly enforced within the tribe.  That makes it a great sorting device.  But that's just my little folk theory for how people manage to talk themselves into this sort of position.  I'm sure there are others.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

You're opposed to being labeled "cis"?  Are you similarly opposed to being labeled heterosexual, Caucasian, American, tall, short, brunette, etc.?  Cis is simply a definition of a trait that you do, in fact, possess.

Kind of like being male or female.

 

[BladeRunner]

Given by who? 

those other traits (besides hetro) are all visible things. Being labels Cis puts my sexuality out front which in my 47 years on this planet has never been needed. Again, who made this new thing up and why do I have to ok with it. You live in your lebling world, and leave me out of it. 

again, I find it hysterical that the community has no problem labeling me w/o knowing anything about me, but god forbid I slip up and call a (obvious) trans person the wrong thing and I have become public enemy #1. 

Two excellent posts in a row! 

Completely agree.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Cis puts my sexuality out front which in my 47 years on this planet has never been needed.

I don’t see how this “puts your sexuality out front.”  Cis people can be gay, straight, bi, asexual, or whatever.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Given by who? 

those other traits (besides hetro) are all visible things. Being labels Cis puts my sexuality out front which in my 47 years on this planet has never been needed. Again, who made this new thing up and why do I have to ok with it. You live in your lebling world, and leave me out of it. 

again, I find it hysterical that the community has no problem labeling me w/o knowing anything about me, but god forbid I slip up and call a (obvious) trans person the wrong thing and I have become public enemy #1. 

I'm not sure the context of the community you're referring to, but in all instances I've ever heard, "cis" has nothing to do with your sexuality.  It has to do with your gender identity.

I.e. if you are male sex, and you identify as a man, you are a cis male.  If you are female sex and identify as a female, you are a cis female.

It does not encompass sexuality.  You can be a gay cis man, a straight cis man, or whatever in-between.  Same with women, you could a straight cis woman, lesbian cis woman, etc.  

I am curious to see this discussion, because the way you are using "cis" is 100% not the way I've ever seen anyone else use it.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

If we’re going to have a word for people that are trans, we also need a word for people that are not trans.  That’s not trying to get anyone to agree with anything.  It’s just a useful word when discussing these issues.

 

[glvsav37]

I don’t see how this “puts your sexuality out front.”  Cis people can be gay, straight, bi, asexual, or whatever.

I'm not sure the context of the community you're referring to, but in all instances I've ever heard, "cis" has nothing to do with your sexuality.  It has to do with your gender identity.

I.e. if you are male sex, and you identify as a man, you are a cis male.  If you are female sex and identify as a female, you are a cis female.

It does not encompass sexuality.  You can gay cis man, a straight cis man, or whatever in-between.  Same with women, you could a straight cis woman, lesbian cis woman, etc.  

I am curious to see this discussion, because the way you are using "cis" is 100% not the way I've ever seen anyone else use it.

I guess the growing "use" of the word/label overall is my issue. 

Again, as mentioned, I dont care what identity or lifestyle you want to live in is, but now it is is crossing lanes into my world and I am expected to embrace it. Why? I don't feel the need to be known as anything other then Mr or Me. I don't have a need to go out of my way to tell my pronouns, I am me. 

I have always and will always identify as a male. Just as my father is and his father before him. We didn't need anything else before, after or otherwise that designation b/c there were no other options besides female. 

Now we live in a world where there are many options and (as well see here) the debate of legitimacy runs high. By labeling me, someone that has no interest in the community or lifestyle at all is personally offensive to me. Should I be an active member of the community who is straight, then maybe I can see the need for a differentiator. But I'm not. (nothing personal, I just dont run in those circles). So why cant the designation of "male" as my current and historical designation of me be acceptable? 

 

[glvsav37]

If we’re going to have a word for people that are trans, we also need a word for people that are not trans.  That’s not trying to get anyone to agree with anything.  It’s just a useful word when discussing these issues.

yea...male. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

yea...male. 

“Male” fails to distinguish between trans males and cis males.

 

[glvsav37]

I'm not sure the context of the community you're referring to, but in all instances I've ever heard, "cis" has nothing to do with your sexuality.  It has to do with your gender identity.

I.e. if you are male sex, and you identify as a man, you are a cis male.  If you are female sex and identify as a female, you are a cis female.

It does not encompass sexuality.  You can gay cis man, a straight cis man, or whatever in-between.  Same with women, you could a straight cis woman, lesbian cis woman, etc.  

I am curious to see this discussion, because the way you are using "cis" is 100% not the way I've ever seen anyone else use it.

to expand on the bolded. Why has my historical identification not acceptable in the new world of (excuse me for saying this wrong) "made up" identities. 

If a community wants to call themselves anything they want and expect to be accepted, who gave them the right to "rename" me? Call yourselves whatever you want, but leave those who are not participating out of it. 

 

[FairWarning]

Good post, and this is basically where I am.  It truly does not matter to me if people want to live their lives in non-traditional ways as long as it doesn't affect me.  Trans people are fine.  Furries are fine.  People who live on communes are fine.  The weirdos on Life Below Zero are fine.  All of those people are totally a-okay in my book.  Those are not lifestyle choices that I would make, but who cares.  I never asked for anybody's permission to make major life decisions, and there's no particular reason why anybody should ask for mine.

Where I jump off is when we get to "trans women are women" and all the other theological dogma that for some reason we're supposed to sign onto.  That's silly, and it's the type of thing that if you went into a lab for the express purpose of alienating people who want their beliefs to be aligned with surface-level reality, this is the kind of thing you would come up with. 

My personal two cents is that this kind of statement serves as a mechanism by which people who belong to the "correct" tribe can credibly signal their membership to one another.  No rational person outside the tribe would ever arrive at this position on their own, but fealty to that idea is very strongly enforced within the tribe.  That makes it a great sorting device.  But that's just my little folk theory for how people manage to talk themselves into this sort of position.  I'm sure there are others.

I just categorize myself as a guy.  Short, and to the point. 
 

Someone can explain the furries thing to me though.

 

[glvsav37]

“Male” fails to distinguish between trans males and cis males.

 no...there are males....and trans males.

I know from the OP thats part of the discussion. Trans people want to live like there was never a past. But there was and I think for those who have lived their whole lives as their current gender, never needing to be labeled as otherwise, shouldn't have to just "accept" labels b/c other don't want to live their assigned birth. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

If a community wants to call themselves anything they want and expect to be accepted, who gave them the right to "rename" me?  

Anyone who is interested in clarity of language.

 

[BladeRunner]

Anyone who is interested in clarity of language.

Uhm...no.  We had a term to describe trans: transsexuals'.  Let's stick with that instead of making things up.

Also, the extreme minority doesn't get to dictate to the majority.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

 no...there are males....and trans males.

I know from the OP thats part of the discussion. Trans people want to live like there was never a past. But there was and I think for those who have lived their lives as their current gender, never needing to be labels as otherwise, shouldn't have to just "accept" labels b/c other don't want to be their assigned birth. 

There are some contexts when we want to distinguish between “male” and “female.”  There are other contexts where we want to distinguish between “trans” and “not trans.”  In that later context it helps to have a word that means “not trans.”

 

[BladeRunner]

There are some contexts when we want to distinguish between “male” and “female.”  There are other contexts where we want to distinguish between “trans” and “not trans.”  In that later context it helps to have a word that means “not trans.”

Yes - "male" or "female" would be that word. 

 

[FairWarning]

Life used to be so simple.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Yes - "male" or "female" would be that word. 

Trans people call themselves male and female.  

 

[sho nuff]

Life used to be so simple.

Not necessarily for everyone.  Do we think trans people didn't exist?  Or was it just that they and others in the LGBTQ community were simply closeted out of fear?

 

[FairWarning]

Not necessarily for everyone.  Do we think trans people didn't exist?  Or was it just that they and others in the LGBTQ community were simply closeted out of fear?

It’s amazing how anything got accomplished in this country

 

[James Daulton]

Not necessarily for everyone.  Do we think trans people didn't exist?  Or was it just that they and others in the LGBTQ community were simply closeted out of fear?

I don't think anyone wants anyone closeted out of fear.  But we also don't want everyone's life turned upside down and people labeled bigots to appease a very small minority of people.  Hell, we all have issues that would make our life better if everyone accommodated, but sometimes you've got to do what's best for the majority unless not doing so denies folks access (like handicapped doors and ramps).

Trans folks should be able to be whomever they want to be with whomever they want.  I should not be held responsible for knowing all the ins and outs of their community and group as long as I let them be and refer to them by female or male or whatever they want to be called.  That to me seems reasonable.

 

[FairWarning]

We really need fewer labels, not more.

 

[sho nuff]

It’s amazing how anything got accomplished in this country

Ummm...ok, not sure what you are trying to get at here.  That it was better when people just kept it quiet?

 

[FairWarning]

Ummm...ok, not sure what you are trying to get at here.  That it was better when people just kept it quiet?

James’ post explained it for me.   It seems like we have to bend over backwards for every little thing, then nothing gets done.  

 

[sho nuff]

James’ post explained it for me.   It seems like we have to bend over backwards for every little thing, then nothing gets done.  

Im not asking that we bend over backwards for every little thing.

Just wanting to clarify that people are not advocating that trans or others are just needing to keep hush hush about it because it was simpler that way for other people.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If we’re going to have a word for people that are trans, we also need a word for people that are not trans.  That’s not trying to get anyone to agree with anything.  It’s just a useful word when discussing these issues.

"We need a word to describe this thing" would be a more credible argument if folks in your camp weren't actively making it impossible to talk about sex.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Trans people call themselves male and female.  

Such as this, for example.  

 

[FairWarning]

Im not asking that we bend over backwards for every little thing.

Just wanting to clarify that people are not advocating that trans or others are just needing to keep hush hush about it because it was simpler that way for other people.

That’s fine, but they should expect some pushback also.  I’m not advocating it, ftr.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

"We need a word to describe this thing" would be a more credible argument if folks in your camp weren't actively making it impossible to talk about sex.

I talk about sex constantly.

 

[sho nuff]

That’s fine, but they should expect some pushback also.  I’m not advocating it, ftr.  

Ok...I get what he was saying above.  I don't think calling someone a bigot to appease other people is right either.

However...expect pushback for what?  For being trans?  Really?  Or for asking to be recognized as a woman if they are trans female but born male?  Why should anyone pushback or expect push back?

Look...if someone dresses as a woman, has gone through hormone therapy to be a woman, even surgery to be a woman.  Why is it so damn hard to just refer to them as a woman?  Why should they expect pushback?

Seems they are doing things then to appease a group of people who just want to refuse to call them a woman...no?

I don't think them being hush hush about things throughout history was really much simpler.  Sure...it was simpler for straight biological males and females...but not for those who were in any other group.  In fact, seems it was very much not-simple and leads to pretty bad things.

 

[Rich Conway]

Given by who? 

those other traits (besides hetro) are all visible things. Being labels Cis puts my sexuality out front which in my 47 years on this planet has never been needed. Again, who made this new thing up and why do I have to ok with it. You live in your lebling world, and leave me out of it. 

again, I find it hysterical that the community has no problem labeling me w/o knowing anything about me, but god forbid I slip up and call a (obvious) trans person the wrong thing and I have become public enemy #1. 

No one is labeling "you" except you.  People are labeling/defining cis as "a person who identifies as the same gender assigned at birth".  It's up to you to determine whether or not you fit that criteria.  It's basically the exact same thing as homosexual/heterosexual.  Are you upset over the definition of heterosexual?

 

[FairWarning]

Ok...I get what he was saying above.  I don't think calling someone a bigot to appease other people is right either.

However...expect pushback for what?  For being trans?  Really?  Or for asking to be recognized as a woman if they are trans female but born male?  Why should anyone pushback or expect push back?

Look...if someone dresses as a woman, has gone through hormone therapy to be a woman, even surgery to be a woman.  Why is it so damn hard to just refer to them as a woman?  Why should they expect pushback?

Seems they are doing things then to appease a group of people who just want to refuse to call them a woman...no?

I don't think them being hush hush about things throughout history was really much simpler.  Sure...it was simpler for straight biological males and females...but not for those who were in any other group.  In fact, seems it was very much not-simple and leads to pretty bad things.

I don’t know near enough to know when they change sexes, I would guess after surgery.  
 

about the pushback part - looking at the poll, 16 of 70 would date a trans (22% of the liberals here).  78% won’t for whatever reason.   It still is somewhat controversial, especially to religious people.  There would be pushback if one spoke at a religious school.  

 

[Steve Tasker]

I guess the growing "use" of the word/label overall is my issue. 

Again, as mentioned, I dont care what identity or lifestyle you want to live in is, but now it is is crossing lanes into my world and I am expected to embrace it. Why? I don't feel the need to be known as anything other then Mr or Me. I don't have a need to go out of my way to tell my pronouns, I am me. 

I have always and will always identify as a male. Just as my father is and his father before him. We didn't need anything else before, after or otherwise that designation b/c there were no other options besides female. 

Now we live in a world where there are many options and (as well see here) the debate of legitimacy runs high. By labeling me, someone that has no interest in the community or lifestyle at all is personally offensive to me. Should I be an active member of the community who is straight, then maybe I can see the need for a differentiator. But I'm not. (nothing personal, I just dont run in those circles). So why cant the designation of "male" as my current and historical designation of me be acceptable? 

 you can call yourself whatever you want, I don't care.  I'm just trying to explain to you that being labeled a "cis male" by someone in the trans community doesn't mean anything about your sexuality.  It's not a derogatory term.

 

[urbanhack]

Life used to be so simple.

for some.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

For those of you that are resistant to changes in language and thinking around trans issues, do you think that you’re going to “win” this fight?  The trajectory on these issues seems pretty obvious to me and it’s not really in your favor.

 

[BladeRunner]

 you can call yourself whatever you want, I don't care.  I'm just trying to explain to you that being labeled a "cis male" by someone in the trans community doesn't mean anything about your sexuality.  It's not a derogatory term.

As a matter of fact, it is.  I think it's insulting and disgraceful that we're supposed to abide by some made up terms to console a bunch of people.  Its no better than calling Trans people "freaks" - that's how insulting these made-up terms are.

We're at the point where we've let the inmates run the asylum (for lack of a better phrase).  a LOT of these people are mentally ill, IMO, and coddling them has given them arrogance and narcissm to a level that is out of control.

For the record, Gender Dysphoria is an actual mental illness in case anyone wants to insist it isn't.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

For those of you that are resistant to changes in language and thinking around trans issues, do you think that you’re going to “win” this fight?  The trajectory on these issues seems pretty obvious to me and it’s not really in your favor.

You and I both live in a little bubble where people claim to believe that some guys who were born male and have male genitals are women.  That's kind of insane, but it's taken on the role of dogma for a fairly small but outwardly-loud segment of the population, the group that some people refer to as the "professional managerial class."

I think this thread gives you a slightly better picture.  A lot of the folks in this thread just automatically assumed that we were talking about post-op trans women, because the alternative seems self-evidently crazy.  And this board skews very strongly toward people who are highly educated and socially liberal.  I think once you start trying to convince normal people that the guy who's just as male as the next guy is somehow a woman, you lose them.  And when actual women start getting referred to as menstruators or chest-feeders or people with uteruses or whatever other dehumanizing terms you come up with, that isn't going to help your cause either.

We'll see obviously. 

 

[Stoneworker]

For those of you that are resistant to changes in language and thinking around trans issues, do you think that you’re going to “win” this fight?  The trajectory on these issues seems pretty obvious to me and it’s not really in your favor.

Language is driven by culture. Science is not. Science is on the side of XX = female and XY = male. 

If someone artificially alters their physical parts into whatever configuration they choose, it still does not change their fundamental DNA structure given at birth.

Therefore, unless their DNA is altered, the "trajectory" of what defines male and what defines female is flat. Regardless of whether a current culture does with the language.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

You and I both live in a little bubble where people claim to believe that some guys who were born male and have male genitals are women.  That's kind of insane, but it's taken on the role of dogma for a fairly small but outwardly-loud segment of the population, the group that some people refer to as the "professional managerial class."

I think this thread gives you a slightly better picture.  A lot of the folks in this thread just automatically assumed that we were talking about post-op trans women, because the alternative seems self-evidently crazy.  And this board skews very strongly toward people who are highly educated and socially liberal.  I think once you start trying to convince normal people that the guy who's just as male as the next guy is somehow a woman, you lose them.  And when actual women start getting referred to as menstruators or chest-feeders or people with uteruses or whatever other dehumanizing terms you come up with, that isn't going to help your cause either.

We'll see obviously. 

What will help my cause is that many formerly-resistant people will have a friend or a respected co-worker or a family member who comes out as trans.  And that will change their perspective.  It’s the exact reason that support for gay civil rights has evolved so much just over the last 20 years or so.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What will help my cause is that many formerly-resistant people will have a friend or a respected co-worker or a family member who comes out as trans.  And that will change their perspective.  It’s the exact reason that support for gay civil rights has evolved so much just over the last 20 years or so.

I think that will help a lot with social acceptance for trans people.  I don't think it will cause people forget that women exist.

(The reason why I don't find the gay rights analogy persuasive is because no gay person ever asked to me to do anything at all for them other than to just let them do their own thing, which I'm happy to do.  I never got any lectures about how actually gay guys are straight and I need to rethink my own sexual orientation or whatever the right analogy to this nonsense would be.  Gay people just wanted to be included alongside straight people -- they weren't trying to erase anybody.  The more extreme folks in the trans rights community are very interested in erasing women.)

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I think that will help a lot with social acceptance for trans people.  I don't think it will cause people forget that women exist.

(The reason why I don't find the gay rights analogy persuasive is because no gay person ever asked to me to do anything at all for them other than to just let them do their own thing, which I'm happy to do.  I never got any lectures about how actually gay guys are straight and I need to rethink my own sexual orientation or whatever the right analogy to this nonsense would be.  Gay people just wanted to be included alongside straight people -- they weren't trying to erase anybody.  The more extreme folks in the trans rights community are very interested in erasing women.)

Gay people were accused of all kinds of terrible stuff.  They were gonna corrupt our children and destroy traditional marriage.  Most people now seem to acknowledge those fears from just a few years ago were silly.  
 

The same will be true of the fears about trans people that have been expressed in this thread (e.g. “erasing women”).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The same will be true of the fears about trans people that have been expressed in this thread (e.g. “erasing women”).

Are pre-op trans women actually women?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Are pre-op trans women actually women?

Yes.  They are women for basically every purpose in which it is necessary to distinguish “men” from “women.”  I consider you a man and I have yet to see your genitals.
 

For those few areas such as medicine or sports in which a finer distinction is required, then it’s fine to point out the differences between cis women and trans women.  But yeah, what you have between your legs isn’t determinative of your gender.

 

[Stoneworker]

What will help my cause is that many formerly-resistant people will have a friend or a respected co-worker or a family member who comes out as trans.  And that will change their perspective.  It’s the exact reason that support for gay civil rights has evolved so much just over the last 20 years or so.

So what exactly is your "cause" and what exactly are people "resistant" to?

 

[Steve Tasker]

As a matter of fact, it is.  I think it's insulting and disgraceful that we're supposed to abide by some made up terms to console a bunch of people.  Its no better than calling Trans people "freaks" - that's how insulting these made-up terms are.

If you find the term "cis" to be insulting or offensive, I don't really know what else to tell ya.  You're within your rights to be offended and insulted.  To each his (her? their?) own.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

So what exactly is your "cause" and what exactly are people "resistant" to?

I guess my “cause” is just for trans people to be treated better.  Some people seem resistant to that.  

 

[Rich Conway]

As a matter of fact, it is.  I think it's insulting and disgraceful that we're supposed to abide by some made up terms to console a bunch of people.  Its no better than calling Trans people "freaks" - that's how insulting these made-up terms are.

Why in the world would a definition be insulting?  Are you similarly insulted by the definition "heterosexual"?  I feel certain that term was "made up" at one point in the past.  How about "conservative" or "right-wing"?  Those are "made up" terms.  Ditto "libertarian" and "progressive".  Hell, "human" and "primate" are made up terms.  Do those insult you?

 

[Stoneworker]

I guess my “cause” is just for trans people to be treated better.  Some people seem resistant to that.  

No need for the emoji. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. The language discussion is particularly confusing.

Do you think it's "not treating trans people better" if someone uses DNA to define male/female, then <choose your modifier> on top of that to describe sexual/physical body part or any other preferences?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Why in the world would a definition be insulting?  Are you similarly insulted by the definition "heterosexual"?  I feel certain that term was "made up" at one point in the past.  How about "conservative" or "right-wing"?  Those are "made up" terms.  Ditto "libertarian" and "progressive".  Hell, "human" and "primate" are made up terms.  Do those insult you?

There's also nothing insulting about noting that trans women are almost all male (by definition).  It's just a nice handy way to refer to something that exists at the level of surface reality.  And yet you have people on this page telling you that they object to that characterization.  

So how can you possibly object to somebody who rejects the "cis" label?  Either language is going to reflect reality (which is very strongly my preference) or it's going to be defined by the preferences of whoever it's being applied to.  Be consistent.