Can you explain why you have faith in your religion? (2 Viewers)

[parasaurolophus]

If you become born again, you have enlightenment. It isn't something that can be understood without experiencing it.

I've only been born one time.

Can I choose whose ###### I pop out of the second time? Dibs on Kate Upton.

she does look like she could pop out a baby at any moment /otis

 

[datonn]

If you become born again, you have enlightenment. It isn't something that can be understood without experiencing it.

So folks who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior become "enlightened" and realize that the 6th and 9th Commandments no longer apply (to believers, especially during election cycles)? That Jesus got it wrong when hanging out with lepers, the poor, etc. (putting others' needs over personal gain/comforts)?

I've been a Christian since the 1970s. That said, my "enlightenment" didn't truly come until the 2000s, when I finally realized that most other people who consider themselves Christians aren't any more wise or clued-into God's will, God's laws, God's plan for our lives, than I am. In fact, I would contend that many (most?) Christians use numerous crutches (i.e. "you've just gotta have faith!") so that they no longer have to intently think for themselves. Instead of asking/researching the hard questions that might lead to an answer of "I don't know" or "Wow...I got it wrong all these years," folks are reduced to "God works in mysterious ways" and "you just gotta have [more/better] faith!" Crutches and a white-washing of deeper thought and true inquisitiveness that non-believers use to laugh at believers. Reducing God to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Why even bother posting "If you become born again, you have enlightenment. It isn't something that can be understood without experiencing it?" What does that possibly accomplish? When 100% of Christians/Believers could spend ten more lifetimes getting even 10% of their facts straight?

 

[Jim11]

There is no "god". You're not going to heaven or hell either, since those places do not exist. You are born, you live a little while, then you die. That's it, that's all there is.

Religion serves the purpose of keeping people in line and giving them the (false) hope of an eternal life.

 

[timschochet]

There is no "god". You're not going to heaven or hell either, since those places do not exist. You are born, you live a little while, then you die. That's it, that's all there is.

Religion serves the purpose of keeping people in line and giving them the (false) hope of an eternal life.

While I agree with your first 4 sentences (not necessarily the last one), what's the point of posting any of it here?

 

[datonn]

There is no "god". You're not going to heaven or hell either, since those places do not exist. You are born, you live a little while, then you die. That's it, that's all there is.

Religion serves the purpose of keeping people in line and giving them the (false) hope of an eternal life.

While I agree with your first 4 sentences (not necessarily the last one), what's the point of posting any of it here?

Interesting. I would have said I would agree with all but one word in Jim11's last sentence (strike the word 'false'), and 100% agree with his third sentence. Disagree with sentences 1, 2, and 4.

The rest? Just Jim11 ...or trying to ruin what has otherwise been one of the more fantastic threads in the FFA in quite some time.

 

[Jim11]

There is no "god". You're not going to heaven or hell either, since those places do not exist. You are born, you live a little while, then you die. That's it, that's all there is.

Religion serves the purpose of keeping people in line and giving them the (false) hope of an eternal life.

While I agree with your first 4 sentences (not necessarily the last one), what's the point of posting any of it here?

To straighten out the uninformed/superstitious amongst us. Or should we just let them be, like one would let a 4 year old believe in Santa Claus?

 

[Otis]

If you become born again, you have enlightenment. It isn't something that can be understood without experiencing it.

I've only been born one time.

Can I choose whose ###### I pop out of the second time? Dibs on Kate Upton.

That's a spacious nine months.

 

[matuski]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

Serious question: aren't you in film?

No.

 

[Jayrok]

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

The early followers, including Paul, thought the judgment was coming soon. The first "church", group of believers, spent their time caring for those in need and being in communion with each other. They prayed for lost souls and waited for the return of Christ. Their worldly possessions weren't going with them. Even Jesus thought the end of the world was closely at hand before he died.

Their focus wasn't on preserving the longevity of mankind. It was to bring as many people into repentance and into the faith as possible. This world was dying from sin. Jesus took on the burden and paid the price. He thought he was coming to call his people soon. It was later that the disciples realized they needed to change daily operations in order to sustain themselves. So they came up with church officials, pastors, deacons, rules for living, and so forth.

Why does God allow cancer? I don't know. Why does he allow any debilitating disease? I always had trouble understanding why he would help a middle aged man/woman make it through surgery and recovery, but allow the agony and death of two other adults down the hall... or the little girl die of a long bout with cancer on another floor of the hospital. People don't like the response "God works in mysterious ways", but what else can they turn to? He is certainly mysterious to us... or maybe he just doesn't exist and these events are random.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

 

[Jayrok]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Pastor in the south east?

 

[Joe Bryant]

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

 

[Joe Bryant]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Pastor in the south east?

That would do it.

Seriously though, I'm interested in what it is for him.

J

 

[timschochet]

Thanks for the detailed answer Joe. My brother is a believer in God, and he always teases me for my lack of belief. He's just recovered from a pretty serious cancer operation, and when we learned it was successful,the first thing he said to me was, "Makes you believe in a higher power, doesn't it?"

I didn't reply, but I immediately thought of all the people who do not recover from cancer or other diseases. If I accept my brother's implicit argument that God is responsible for his recovery, then I would also have to believe, logically, that God is choosing to let others suffer and die. You can't have one without the other. The notion of an omnipotent being playing a kind of cosmic roulette with all of our lives doesn't exactly strike me as comforting.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

 

[KCitons]

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Joe,

I understand some of what you are saying. The one thing that is still a hurdle for me is the death of newborn. Lots of religions regard the conception and birth of a child as a miracle, or a gift from God. If so, why would God allow a baby to die at birth? Seems like a waste of a miracle.

This is one of those things that Catholics have a tough time answering. They want to stand firmly against abortion or stem cell research, but dismiss the natural death of a child as Gods will.

 

[Henry Ford]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Pastor in the south east?

That would do it.

Seriously though, I'm interested in what it is for him.

J

I'll say that as a lawyer in the South, my career has been limited by my lack of belief in God. Turns out I probably prefer this career to the other possibilities, but there's no way I was making partner at a defense firm in Louisiana.

 

[matuski]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Texas. Large majority (all aside from military) of my accounts are affiliated with a denomination. More importantly many of the power end users are ultra religious and hold positions in large churches. My largest close last year came when a surgeon asked me to join him in the chapel in the lobby. Pretty sure he thought I was praying with him.

In short, everywhere I turn. Most assume I am Christian, and I neither work to maintain or deny these assumptions. Amazing how often these people around me are comfortable saying awful and/or ignorant things regarding those they perceive as different from themselves... usually on religious grounds. Atheism in particular seems to bring about some of the baser emotions of fear and anger from folks. I will hear a scrub tech say something moronic (there are more johnjohns in this world than we like to admit) and shake my head, only to hear the surgeon double down on it.

It doesn't bother me much, as I've said before it isn't something I think about or identify myself with. I am mindful of my surroundings, however.

I didn't even mention my uber Catholic management and executive team in my own company.

 

[shader]

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Joe,

I understand some of what you are saying. The one thing that is still a hurdle for me is the death of newborn. Lots of religions regard the conception and birth of a child as a miracle, or a gift from God. If so, why would God allow a baby to die at birth? Seems like a waste of a miracle.

This is one of those things that Catholics have a tough time answering. They want to stand firmly against abortion or stem cell research, but dismiss the natural death of a child as Gods will.

When you believe it's God's will, and not an accident, it makes it really difficult to reconcile the bad things that happen.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks for the detailed answer Joe. My brother is a believer in God, and he always teases me for my lack of belief. He's just recovered from a pretty serious cancer operation, and when we learned it was successful,the first thing he said to me was, "Makes you believe in a higher power, doesn't it?"

I didn't reply, but I immediately thought of all the people who do not recover from cancer or other diseases. If I accept my brother's implicit argument that God is responsible for his recovery, then I would also have to believe, logically, that God is choosing to let others suffer and die. You can't have one without the other. The notion of an omnipotent being playing a kind of cosmic roulette with all of our lives doesn't exactly strike me as comforting.

Thanks tim,

I hear you and get that. I'm very hesitant to attribute every good thing that happens to an answered prayer.

J

 

[B-Deep]

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

if one believes in an all powerful god, then those things are here because of God. The best way i could reconcile it was to think of existence as a piece of god's art, and but for the shadows (bad things) the light (good things) would not be so beautiful

and that is ok from a large picture point of view, but if god is truly ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING then he more than allows evil, he created it. And while those shadows may make the light more beautiful, they also represent ACTUAL people who ACTUALLY suffer. I have trouble with that

Now, if you are open to a VERY powerful god, but not ALL POWERFUL, things can make a bit more sense. That's pretty much blasphemy to most religious folks though.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

 

[Joe Bryant]

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Joe,

I understand some of what you are saying. The one thing that is still a hurdle for me is the death of newborn. Lots of religions regard the conception and birth of a child as a miracle, or a gift from God. If so, why would God allow a baby to die at birth? Seems like a waste of a miracle.

This is one of those things that Catholics have a tough time answering. They want to stand firmly against abortion or stem cell research, but dismiss the natural death of a child as Gods will.

I get it KC. I've fortunately never experienced it, but I'd have to think the death of a newborn is excruciatingly off the charts hard. So hard. I'm sorry but I don't have the satisfying answer. I believe that babies go to heaven but I totally understand that's of zero comfort to parents who don't share my faith so I'm hesitant to even mention that. It's a tough one for sure. But honestly, it's part of a pretty long list of tough stuff that happens. Unnatural deaths. Abuse. And worse. I hate it.

J

 

[Joe Bryant]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Texas. Large majority (all aside from military) of my accounts are affiliated with a denomination. More importantly many of the power end users are ultra religious and hold positions in large churches. My largest close last year came when a surgeon asked me to join him in the chapel in the lobby. Pretty sure he thought I was praying with him.

In short, everywhere I turn. Most assume I am Christian, and I neither work to maintain or deny these assumptions. Amazing how often these people around me are comfortable saying awful and/or ignorant things regarding those they perceive as different from themselves... usually on religious grounds. Atheism in particular seems to bring about some of the baser emotions of fear and anger from folks. I will hear a scrub tech say something moronic (there are more johnjohns in this world than we like to admit) and shake my head, only to hear the surgeon double down on it.

It doesn't bother me much, as I've said before it isn't something I think about or identify myself with. I am mindful of my surroundings, however.

I didn't even mention my uber Catholic management and executive team in my own company.

Thanks. I can see how that would be hard.

And that totally sucks about the people you're working with. I know it's not me, but I apologize on our behalf. We screw this up regularly. But still that sucks.

J

 

[butcher boy]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

I'm hesitant to post this but it keeps eating at me when I see "Love they Neighbor" posted. How does the church reconcile "Love your Neighbor" with the church's position of suppressing gays' rights to marriage? I would hardly call it loving thy neighbor to take that side on a civil rights issue like gay marriage.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

I'm hesitant to post this but it keeps eating at me when I see "Love they Neighbor" posted. How does the church reconcile "Love your Neighbor" with the church's position of suppressing gays' rights to marriage? I would hardly call it loving thy neighbor to take that side on a civil rights issue like gay marriage.

Don't be hesitant. It's a real question. And how Christians live out the command of loving your neighbor (which Jesus was pretty clear was the MAIN THING) in practical terms is therefore a big deal. I personally don't see that a Christian should have any say over whether two gay people want to marry.

J

 

[Joe T]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

Are you a pastor?

 

[Joe T]

So many people always raise the "Problem of Evil", and it's certainly worth discussing. But for me an equally important issue that I would like to bring up with those who have faith is what I would call the "problem of needless death". Specifically, in Jesus' day, people didn't wash themselves enough, and as a result they got diseases and died very young. And this lasted for nearly 1900 years after Jesus died, until scientists discovered the existence of germs, and that keeping clean could help eliminate many diseases and needless death.

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

Some really weird questions in here.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

 

[Henry Ford]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

 

[B-Deep]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

God created existence

and he did so with full knowledge of all events that would ever transpire

if you believe those god created sin and allows sin to exist. before he created man there was no sin, and when he created man he knew man would sin

he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and created eve knowing eve would sin and knowing all the suffering that would bring

 

[matuski]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Texas. Large majority (all aside from military) of my accounts are affiliated with a denomination. More importantly many of the power end users are ultra religious and hold positions in large churches. My largest close last year came when a surgeon asked me to join him in the chapel in the lobby. Pretty sure he thought I was praying with him.

In short, everywhere I turn. Most assume I am Christian, and I neither work to maintain or deny these assumptions. Amazing how often these people around me are comfortable saying awful and/or ignorant things regarding those they perceive as different from themselves... usually on religious grounds. Atheism in particular seems to bring about some of the baser emotions of fear and anger from folks. I will hear a scrub tech say something moronic (there are more johnjohns in this world than we like to admit) and shake my head, only to hear the surgeon double down on it.

It doesn't bother me much, as I've said before it isn't something I think about or identify myself with. I am mindful of my surroundings, however.

I didn't even mention my uber Catholic management and executive team in my own company.

Thanks. I can see how that would be hard.

And that totally sucks about the people you're working with. I know it's not me, but I apologize on our behalf. We screw this up regularly. But still that sucks.

J

In all honesty I think most of these people are awesome. I don't identify people by their religion, I find many other factors to be much more reliable. Like I said it doesn't bother me much... sometimes I have to bow my head or stand quietly in the corner shaking my head to accommodate them, oh well.

Also, when you say "we"... isn't that implying I am not one of you? We are people.. our religious beliefs, or lack thereof, do not (should not) define us.

I've said it before.. even my most determined religious stalkers here would be able to enjoy a beer with me any time.

 

[buck naked]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

I'm hesitant to post this but it keeps eating at me when I see "Love they Neighbor" posted. How does the church reconcile "Love your Neighbor" with the church's position of suppressing gays' rights to marriage? I would hardly call it loving thy neighbor to take that side on a civil rights issue like gay marriage.

You shouldn't be hesitant to post it. It is a darn good question. Not everyone in the church sees it as the media wants to portray it; namely, that the entire Christian church hates gays. That is just not true at all. Yes, there are some people who think gays are sinful, but these same people apparently fail to see the evil and sin in their own lives.

I struggle with this question myself. I feel like I am predisposed to be appalled by gay people, yet I KNOW I am to love my neighbor. I have to constantly work on it. I also don't assume that I have the all the answers either.

 

[proninja]

I'm hesitant to post this but it keeps eating at me when I see "Love they Neighbor" posted. How does the church reconcile "Love your Neighbor" with the church's position of suppressing gays' rights to marriage? I would hardly call it loving thy neighbor to take that side on a civil rights issue like gay marriage.

Don't. This is the anxious issue in the church today. Al Mohler just released a response to Matthew Vines' book "God and the Gay Christian" that a few of my church friends and I are kicking around this morning. I don't have time to engage on it now, but hopefully will be able to get back to this this evening.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I discovered my own atheism after I was already married and had kids so I attend each week to play along. Is it the stigma? Why is it hard for (some?) atheists to draw the line and just not go and just openly tell their kids/coworkers/family/etc?

It isn't complicated. There are real world consequences to openly denying the invisible guy in the sky.

People hide behind religion to judge people, and in many parts of this world it can and will be used against you.

For a group of people who are mostly rich white guys, the persecution complex surprises me a bit. Sort of like it does when Christians claim it in this country.

My career would be at a dead end if I were to make my position on religion known. There is no complex, it is real.

ETA - you can imagine in my line of work that most of my customers have explicit religious affiliations.

That's interesting. What line of work and what part of the country?

J

Texas. Large majority (all aside from military) of my accounts are affiliated with a denomination. More importantly many of the power end users are ultra religious and hold positions in large churches. My largest close last year came when a surgeon asked me to join him in the chapel in the lobby. Pretty sure he thought I was praying with him.

In short, everywhere I turn. Most assume I am Christian, and I neither work to maintain or deny these assumptions. Amazing how often these people around me are comfortable saying awful and/or ignorant things regarding those they perceive as different from themselves... usually on religious grounds. Atheism in particular seems to bring about some of the baser emotions of fear and anger from folks. I will hear a scrub tech say something moronic (there are more johnjohns in this world than we like to admit) and shake my head, only to hear the surgeon double down on it.

It doesn't bother me much, as I've said before it isn't something I think about or identify myself with. I am mindful of my surroundings, however.

I didn't even mention my uber Catholic management and executive team in my own company.

Thanks. I can see how that would be hard.

And that totally sucks about the people you're working with. I know it's not me, but I apologize on our behalf. We screw this up regularly. But still that sucks.

J

In all honesty I think most of these people are awesome. I don't identify people by their religion, I find many other factors to be much more reliable. Like I said it doesn't bother me much... sometimes I have to bow my head or stand quietly in the corner shaking my head to accommodate them, oh well.

Also, when you say "we"... isn't that implying I am not one of you? We are people.. our religious beliefs, or lack thereof, do not (should not) define us.

I've said it before.. even my most determined religious stalkers here would be able to enjoy a beer with me any time.

When I said "We screw this up regularly", I meant "We Christians screw this up regularly". Sorry that wasn't clear.

J

 

[KCitons]

How much of a role does society play in the expression of a persons religious beliefs? On one side, an over zealous born again person is often looked at as a freak. But, when a Christian slips up, they are denounced as being hypocritical.

Actually, is it possible to be over zealous as a Christian? If there is a God, isn't this way he would want everyone to act?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,

Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

 

[shader]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

God created existence

and he did so with full knowledge of all events that would ever transpire

if you believe those god created sin and allows sin to exist. before he created man there was no sin, and when he created man he knew man would sin

he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and created eve knowing eve would sin and knowing all the suffering that would bring

I don't believe that at all

 

[datonn]

So the question I would ask is, why did God allow this? Why didn't He stress cleanliness in the Bible? Or why didn't Jesus do it? Why didn't Jesus tell the Apostles about germs? And instead of creating magical loaves of bread, why didn't Jesus instruct His disciples about how to grow wheat better, or any sort of technology which would serve to lengthen people's lives and make them easier? Why does God allow cancer, and not give us the cure for it right now? This is the "problem of needless death" as I see it, and I'm wondering how religious people will respond.

For me, the difference comes down to "macro vs. micro," and whether God actually intervenes on a frequent, regular basis. Actually "hears" our prayers.

The best analogy I can think of at the moment (not a great one) is the disc golf course here in our community. I walked a 15-acre area that had been devastated by flood, pollution, et al for decades prior. I took it upon myself to clean that area up...eventually got other volunteers and elected officials to support the cause and help with bigger/better equipment. And over the course of the past ~8 years, we have taken "Chernobyl" and made it a place that many residents call the most beautiful park in the city. Heck, the county! Before we did our work, fish, deer, turtles, et al were dying in droves...with their corpses rotting up in trees or lying on the ground or water's surface. The only life you ever saw in the area was sparse amounts of life that had recently died. No more. It is now a place where life flourishes. Where all sorts of species can live and eat in safety.

In that 15-acre "world," you might say that I am "God." I "(re)created" that area from something that was far from safe/livable. I care about the area's long-term health. I've rescued and safely relocated many-a-turtle to a place where they will thrive, along with planting lots of fruit-bearing plants that keep the deer happy and fed. That said, if one turtle happens to get into something that makes them sick and die, will I come to their rescue? Probably not. If a fish is hung-up in some litter and cries out for help as it slowly starves/suffocates? If I stumble across the scene I'll help, sure. More likely than not though, that fish is fertilizer. I focus on the overall (macro) health of the area, and will help the individual creature (nano) I encounter as I can. But I am not actively involved in their day-to-day lives. And if they get sick, or trapped, or eaten, they can "pray" all they want to for me or ??? to come to their rescue, and basically what's going to happen is not going to change. Unless they get lucky and I/they happen to be in the right place, at the right time.

I don't believe God causes people to get cancer, and I don't believe God cures people of cancer. God created this world and loves it, and will help in a lot of ways! But if "datonn's" wife or mom gets cancer, and "datonn" cries out to heaven to please, please cure them, I might as well be asking those deer and turtles for help. Not that God doesn't care about his creation or wishes pain/suffering on ANY living creature! But that God is focused on the "macro," not the "micro" or "nano." If that makes any sense. It's how I've reconciled things in my mind, anyway. Runs counter to what a lot of the Church teaches! But if not that, then you're left with a stillborn baby, or an eight-year old dying of leukemia, or your sister being raped as "God's will."

 

[shader]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

I'm hesitant to post this but it keeps eating at me when I see "Love they Neighbor" posted. How does the church reconcile "Love your Neighbor" with the church's position of suppressing gays' rights to marriage? I would hardly call it loving thy neighbor to take that side on a civil rights issue like gay marriage.

I think the problem here is the suppressing of gays rights to marriage. Can you imagine Jesus and the apostles getting involved in the political aspects of Rome and trying to change the laws? I realize they were an extreme minority, but Jesus could have made big changes. He was offered "all the kingdoms of the world", but that wasn't his purpose at the time. Religious people who rant and rave and try to make political issues aren't really showing love, I would agree.

I think the key in a lot of the points raised in this thread is that you can't judge 100% of people who identify as Christians, based on the actions of some. Just because some preacher says "Well God took your daughter so he could have more angels" doesn't mean that the bible and Christianity is wrong, it means that there is a preacher that has a warped outlook on the bible and on God.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

It doesn't make any difference to me: I didn't bring up the word evil. I brought up AIDs though. I'm pretty sure that's a thing that exists, not an amorphous vacuum of good.

The fact that God created everything - every single thing in the heavens and earth is not something that's stated in a couple of verses. It's pervasive throughout both testaments, and couldn't be clearer.

 

[shader]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,

Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

Yeah, most modern bibles don't translate that word as evil. And God did bring calamity upon evildoers in the past, and promises to do it in the future as well. It doesn't say he causes ALL calamity though, just that he causes it.

 

[shader]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

It doesn't make any difference to me: I didn't bring up the word evil. I brought up AIDs though. I'm pretty sure that's a thing that exists, not an amorphous vacuum of good.

The fact that God created everything - every single thing in the heavens and earth is not something that's stated in a couple of verses. It's pervasive throughout both testaments, and couldn't be clearer.

If we are going to discuss this from a biblical perspective, you have to use the bible to answer the question. The bible is clear that man was sinless and perfect before Adam and Eve rebelled. Then they sinned, and death was brought upon the world. (Romans 5:12) Logically, this means that somehow man's DNA was altered and entered an inperfect state, which was susceptible to things that could cause death. Like AIDS, cancer, or even old age.

Also, btw, the spread of AIDS would have never happened if man lived by the moral standards in the bible.

 

[KCitons]

I think the problem here is the suppressing of gays rights to marriage. Can you imagine Jesus and the apostles getting involved in the political aspects of Rome and trying to change the laws? I realize they were an extreme minority, but Jesus could have made big changes. He was offered "all the kingdoms of the world", but that wasn't his purpose at the time. Religious people who rant and rave and try to make political issues aren't really showing love, I would agree.

I think the key in a lot of the points raised in this thread is that you can't judge 100% of people who identify as Christians, based on the actions of some. Just because some preacher says "Well God took your daughter so he could have more angels" doesn't mean that the bible and Christianity is wrong, it means that there is a preacher that has a warped outlook on the bible and on God.

Can we take this a step further. How does the Bible compare to the Declaration of Independence?

After only 200 years, the DOI has limitations, but allowed for the people to make changes as times change.

But 2000 years after the Bible, the different religions don't have the same ability to be flexible as things change. They have painted themselves into a corner.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

Yeah, most modern bibles don't translate that word as evil. And God did bring calamity upon evildoers in the past, and promises to do it in the future as well. It doesn't say he causes ALL calamity though, just that he causes it.

Shall there be evil in a city, and he not done it? (May be a word or two off. This is from memory.). Amos chapter... 3?

And, again, he has made everything that exists. Very clearly stated over and over. AIDs is a thing. It exists. In fact, it's a virus and thus arguably a living thing. Can someone else make living things?

 

[shader]

I think the problem here is the suppressing of gays rights to marriage. Can you imagine Jesus and the apostles getting involved in the political aspects of Rome and trying to change the laws? I realize they were an extreme minority, but Jesus could have made big changes. He was offered "all the kingdoms of the world", but that wasn't his purpose at the time. Religious people who rant and rave and try to make political issues aren't really showing love, I would agree.

I think the key in a lot of the points raised in this thread is that you can't judge 100% of people who identify as Christians, based on the actions of some. Just because some preacher says "Well God took your daughter so he could have more angels" doesn't mean that the bible and Christianity is wrong, it means that there is a preacher that has a warped outlook on the bible and on God.

Can we take this a step further. How does the Bible compare to the Declaration of Independence?

After only 200 years, the DOI has limitations, but allowed for the people to make changes as times change.

But 2000 years after the Bible, the different religions don't have the same ability to be flexible as things change. They have painted themselves into a corner.

Can you expand on this? How have they painted themselves in a corner?

 

[shader]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

Yeah, most modern bibles don't translate that word as evil. And God did bring calamity upon evildoers in the past, and promises to do it in the future as well. It doesn't say he causes ALL calamity though, just that he causes it.

Shall there be evil in a city, and he not done it? (May be a word or two off. This is from memory.). Amos chapter... 3?

And, again, he has made everything that exists. Very clearly stated over and over. AIDs is a thing. It exists. In fact, it's a virus and thus arguably a living thing. Can someone else make living things?

Technically it was a mutation that spread to men. No I don't believe God created all mutations or is actively directing every genetic event that occurs on earth.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

Yeah, most modern bibles don't translate that word as evil. And God did bring calamity upon evildoers in the past, and promises to do it in the future as well. It doesn't say he causes ALL calamity though, just that he causes it.

Shall there be evil in a city, and he not done it? (May be a word or two off. This is from memory.). Amos chapter... 3?And, again, he has made everything that exists. Very clearly stated over and over. AIDs is a thing. It exists. In fact, it's a virus and thus arguably a living thing. Can someone else make living things?

Technically it was a mutation that spread to men. No I don't believe God created all mutations or is actively directing every genetic event that occurs on earth.

Oh. So he creates all things on Earth that exist except AIDS.

 

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HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.