Car Market going forward (3 Viewers)

[DA RAIDERS]

The lease 7500 pass thru on evs are being just abused.

wut?

 

[pollardsvision]

To try to get back into everybody's good graces, I'll share this....And it'll help explain how far my irrational love of the Echo goes.

Couple years ago, an old buddy very graciously got me a Ric Flair Cameo thing done.

It was fantastic in so many ways, but what really set it off was that obviously Ric Flair had never heard of the Toyota Echo. Why would he? He's Ric effing Flair. It was an ugly car only made for 5 years. Heck, most regular people never heard of it.

He thought "Tayata Echo" was either my mistress or wife (hard to tell which).

So anyway, I hope you enjoy this masterpiece.

And seriously, sorry for being a butthead.

I must admit, I thought you were being kind of a jerk and way too sensitive about your Toyota Echo but I didn't know it was THAT kind of relationship with your car. So, I say, live and let live and as Rick Flair said "enjoy your lovely wife Toy Yoder Eeeckooo. . . I like that name!"

Haha. Both are true. I was being a jerk and too sensitive.

But it's a very special car to me. It's run into some problems in the last year (after 21 years and 300K miles of literally nothing but oil changes/tires/brakes). I've spent a few thousand in various repairs when the KBB says it's about a $400 car. And it's nothing compared what I'd be willing to spend if we could really get to the bottom of it.
Running okay now, but got some hesitation/sputtering that just popped up (just a couple days before my little tantrum here).

I'll probably have to see a therapist to ever get to the point of where I can really let her go.

 

[pollardsvision]

In real actual car market news, well rumors, there are rumor that Toyota may bring the Stout back as a direct competitor to the Ford Maverick and Hyundai Santa Cruz.

Maybe as a hybrid or EV. Would be really cool if true. It would make sense to do. The compact pickup was all but abandoned over the last couple decades, but I'd think there's a market there as Ford is seeing with the Maverick.

And for that market, I really hope somebody at Subaru is planning to bring the glorious Baja back to compete in the compact pickup market. Love those things.

 

[pollardsvision]

I wasn't going to post this. But you guys started ****ting on the Echo. Blame moops.

This dude is overly snarky and obviously has an agenda. His channel is about walkable cities, FFS. He's an *******.

But there are a lot of good points, if you can get past his assholery.

I believe everybody should drive what they like, but there's no mistaking that a huge chunk of society/surburia driving vehicles that are larger than the tanks that won WW2 is not good for the population as a whole.

We wouldn't need all these cameras to feel safe if we still built cars were you could do crazy things like "see anything around you".

The messenger here kind of sucks, but we really do need to address the issue that our roads are filled with vehicles that are a public safety concern. You know, if we care about the children.

Dude you said some of the better car mfgs haven't made a car better than the echo. My car has a 5 star rating from NHTSA, the echo a 4, so using your theory, your car is more of a public safety concern than mine.

Please disregard. I was just in my feelings and butt hurt, trying to be snotty.

 

[culdeus]

The lease 7500 pass thru on evs are being just abused.

wut?

On lease the dealers can pass thru the 7500 credit.

 

[RCon]

The lease 7500 pass thru on evs are being just abused.

What means this? Like I'm a 10-year old, please?

So, I lease a car eligible for the $7500 credit. I pay them, say, $2K up front and the monthly, I still get the $7500 tax credit first year, AND the normal residual buyout or hand the car back after 3 years applies?

 

[gianmarco]

The lease 7500 pass thru on evs are being just abused.

What means this? Like I'm a 10-year old, please?

So, I lease a car eligible for the $7500 credit. I pay them, say, $2K up front and the monthly, I still get the $7500 tax credit first year, AND the normal residual buyout or hand the car back after 3 years applies?

Yes.

Except don't ever put money down on a lease unless your credit won't allow differently.

 

[the moops]

The lease 7500 pass thru on evs are being just abused.

What means this? Like I'm a 10-year old, please?

So, I lease a car eligible for the $7500 credit. I pay them, say, $2K up front and the monthly, I still get the $7500 tax credit first year, AND the normal residual buyout or hand the car back after 3 years applies?

How about like a 5 year old? I'm still shuked.

Example, I am about to buy a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV. I see that does not qualify for the lease 7500 credit but does for the purchase.

I read this, but it didn't help "If you were planning on purchasing the vehicle to begin with, we suggest first leasing the car to take advantage of the newly available $7,500 lease incentive, and then buying out the vehicle immediately to avoid paying the high interest charges. "

And also this "If offered by the manufacturer’s affiliated lender, the $7,500 incentive is applied as a capitalized cost reduction, similar to a down payment, towards the lease of a vehicle."

I wanted the Hyundai Ioniq 5, or maybe one of the Kias instead of the Bolt, but the tax credit swayed me. If that credit is still available for the Hyundai or Kia with some creative lease/purchase shenanigans, count me in

 

[culdeus]

The lease 7500 pass thru on evs are being just abused.

What means this? Like I'm a 10-year old, please?

So, I lease a car eligible for the $7500 credit. I pay them, say, $2K up front and the monthly, I still get the $7500 tax credit first year, AND the normal residual buyout or hand the car back after 3 years applies?

How about like a 5 year old? I'm still shuked.

Example, I am about to buy a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV. I see that does not qualify for the lease 7500 credit but does for the purchase.

I read this, but it didn't help "If you were planning on purchasing the vehicle to begin with, we suggest first leasing the car to take advantage of the newly available $7,500 lease incentive, and then buying out the vehicle immediately to avoid paying the high interest charges. "

And also this "If offered by the manufacturer’s affiliated lender, the $7,500 incentive is applied as a capitalized cost reduction, similar to a down payment, towards the lease of a vehicle."

I wanted the Hyundai Ioniq 5, or maybe one of the Kias instead of the Bolt, but the tax credit swayed me. If that credit is still available for the Hyundai or Kia with some creative lease/purchase shenanigans, count me in

Would honestly read the leasehacker forums. They do a better job of explaining everything. It's way over my head. Alot depends on the dealer and their ability to credit items in the lease and the buyout terms.

You can structure deals to buyout lease that are very favorable

 

[pollardsvision]

Mississippi, as I assume other states will continue to do, just doubled down on laws that protect the dealership model

Car dealers are a strong lobby, for sure. I understand why they want to protect their businesses, of course, but it's a very odd system when both the consumers and the manufacturers would really rather they didn't exist (at least in the current form).

This law, of course, was also aimed at Tesla. The law lets them keep their one current "store" in the state, but they cannot expand further in MS without adopting a dealership model.

And of course Ford is a in battle with alot of their dealers over the EV program. What Ford is asking of the dealers seems unreasonable, but they are obviously trying to find ways to adjust the current dealership model.

 

[snellman]

Mississippi, as I assume other states will continue to do, just doubled down on laws that protect the dealership model

Car dealers are a strong lobby, for sure. I understand why they want to protect their businesses, of course, but it's a very odd system when both the consumers and the manufacturers would really rather they didn't exist (at least in the current form).

This law, of course, was also aimed at Tesla. The law lets them keep their one current "store" in the state, but they cannot expand further in MS without adopting a dealership model.

And of course Ford is a in battle with alot of their dealers over the EV program. What Ford is asking of the dealers seems unreasonable, but they are obviously trying to find ways to adjust the current dealership model.

What the manufacturers are doing right now with EV is insane. Buick wants to be 100% EV by 2028. They are making dealers spend 100K + in order to remain a Buick dealer. We just gave up our Buick dealership at the beginning of the month because of this. We are in NW IA so it will be 10+ years before EV is even somewhat relevant here. GM in general is making dealerships spend $$$$$ if you want to be able to sell EV vehicles. (Special tools, Special Equipment, etc)

 

[Desert_Power]

So anyway, I hope you enjoy this masterpiece.

omg, omg, omg ...

legendary.

 

[New Binky the Doormat]

Mississippi, as I assume other states will continue to do, just doubled down on laws that protect the dealership model

Car dealers are a strong lobby, for sure. I understand why they want to protect their businesses, of course, but it's a very odd system when both the consumers and the manufacturers would really rather they didn't exist (at least in the current form).

This law, of course, was also aimed at Tesla. The law lets them keep their one current "store" in the state, but they cannot expand further in MS without adopting a dealership model.

And of course Ford is a in battle with alot of their dealers over the EV program. What Ford is asking of the dealers seems unreasonable, but they are obviously trying to find ways to adjust the current dealership model.

What the manufacturers are doing right now with EV is insane. Buick wants to be 100% EV by 2028. They are making dealers spend 100K + in order to remain a Buick dealer. We just gave up our Buick dealership at the beginning of the month because of this. We are in NW IA so it will be 10+ years before EV is even somewhat relevant here. GM in general is making dealerships spend $$$$$ if you want to be able to sell EV vehicles. (Special tools, Special Equipment, etc)

hey uhhh ...I'm all for green power, save the planet, etc.

seems like we're betting on technology that hasn't been developed yet - for mining and recycling lithium

While the world does have enough lithium to power the electric vehicle revolution, it's less a question of quantity, and more a question of accessibility. Earth has approximately 88 million tonnes of lithium, but only one-quarter is economically viable to mine as reserves.Jan 6, 2023

 

[glvsav37]

any experts predict where we are going to be around summer? My wife needs a new car and I'm trying to push it off as long as I can hoping overall prices will go down.
Right now everyone is saying that dealers are getting over sticker and I'm not about to piss money I don't have away.

We can afford to wait but my daughter will be taking over my car this September and I'll be getting the wife's hand me down. So I'm trying to figure out when the best time to buy would be.

 

[fruity pebbles]

any experts predict where we are going to be around summer? My wife needs a new car and I'm trying to push it off as long as I can hoping overall prices will go down.
Right now everyone is saying that dealers are getting over sticker and I'm not about to piss money I don't have away.

We can afford to wait but my daughter will be taking over my car this September and I'll be getting the wife's hand me down. So I'm trying to figure out when the best time to buy would be.

They’re not getting over sticker where I am anymore. Outside a few manufacturers and a few models, I’m surprised they are anywhere.

 

[pollardsvision]

Mississippi, as I assume other states will continue to do, just doubled down on laws that protect the dealership model

Car dealers are a strong lobby, for sure. I understand why they want to protect their businesses, of course, but it's a very odd system when both the consumers and the manufacturers would really rather they didn't exist (at least in the current form).

This law, of course, was also aimed at Tesla. The law lets them keep their one current "store" in the state, but they cannot expand further in MS without adopting a dealership model.

And of course Ford is a in battle with alot of their dealers over the EV program. What Ford is asking of the dealers seems unreasonable, but they are obviously trying to find ways to adjust the current dealership model.

What the manufacturers are doing right now with EV is insane. Buick wants to be 100% EV by 2028. They are making dealers spend 100K + in order to remain a Buick dealer. We just gave up our Buick dealership at the beginning of the month because of this. We are in NW IA so it will be 10+ years before EV is even somewhat relevant here. GM in general is making dealerships spend $$$$$ if you want to be able to sell EV vehicles. (Special tools, Special Equipment, etc)

Wow, that sucks. Certainly feels like the manufacturers are trying to push dealers out.

One of Ford's two plans for their dealerships requires the dealer spend about $600K in upgrades and then the dealer is still capped out at getting no more than 25 EV's per year.

 

[pollardsvision]

any experts predict where we are going to be around summer? My wife needs a new car and I'm trying to push it off as long as I can hoping overall prices will go down.
Right now everyone is saying that dealers are getting over sticker and I'm not about to piss money I don't have away.

We can afford to wait but my daughter will be taking over my car this September and I'll be getting the wife's hand me down. So I'm trying to figure out when the best time to buy would be.

Things could calm down after tax season, but it's hard to say how much.

The last couple of years have caused a lot of manufacturers to make fewer vehicles at much higher profit margins. Started out as a necessity when they just couldn't make more vehicles, but a lot seem to be pointing to it as a long-term business model when they saw how profitable that was.

A lot of places are starting to see inventory pile up because of the insane prices and interest rates (particularly Jeep/Ram/Chrysler, but basically all American brands). But few price cuts as of yet though, but it could be a tax season effect. Maybe not as much in dealer markups, but that's probably because manufacturers generally raised the MSRP's.

And then some makers are still having trouble building enough cars (Honda, Subaru, KIa).

This summer should be better than right now, but still probably going to be a while before buying a car doesn't pretty well suck.

 

[Faust]

Car Dealership Guy @GuyDealership
Why are used car prices not declining?

Here is one reason... Lack of supply.

Unsold USED cars on dealer lots:

Feb 2021: 2.60 million cars
Feb 2023: 2.07 million cars

21% fewer cars in 2 years

Shutting down global supply chains is risky business.

(source: cox auto)

https://twitter.com/guydealership/status/1636826840739336193?s=21

Car Dealership Guy @GuyDealership
Used car listing prices are dropping.

Yet, dealers are paying more for cars.

Everything makes sense

https://twitter.com/guydealership/status/1637087889979760640?s=21

 

[culdeus]

Mississippi, as I assume other states will continue to do, just doubled down on laws that protect the dealership model

Car dealers are a strong lobby, for sure. I understand why they want to protect their businesses, of course, but it's a very odd system when both the consumers and the manufacturers would really rather they didn't exist (at least in the current form).

This law, of course, was also aimed at Tesla. The law lets them keep their one current "store" in the state, but they cannot expand further in MS without adopting a dealership model.

And of course Ford is a in battle with alot of their dealers over the EV program. What Ford is asking of the dealers seems unreasonable, but they are obviously trying to find ways to adjust the current dealership model.

What the manufacturers are doing right now with EV is insane. Buick wants to be 100% EV by 2028. They are making dealers spend 100K + in order to remain a Buick dealer. We just gave up our Buick dealership at the beginning of the month because of this. We are in NW IA so it will be 10+ years before EV is even somewhat relevant here. GM in general is making dealerships spend $$$$$ if you want to be able to sell EV vehicles. (Special tools, Special Equipment, etc)

hey uhhh ...I'm all for green power, save the planet, etc.

seems like we're betting on technology that hasn't been developed yet - for mining and recycling lithium

While the world does have enough lithium to power the electric vehicle revolution, it's less a question of quantity, and more a question of accessibility. Earth has approximately 88 million tonnes of lithium, but only one-quarter is economically viable to mine as reserves.Jan 6, 2023

Some of this range anxiety will come down with destination charging and better home charging. 300 mile packs are a silly waste brought on by poor infrastructure decisions.

That being said there is a ****ton of the stuff and it's exceptionally recyclable. Gas. Isn't.

Sea mining lithium is theoretically easier than crude. Not proven but it's getting there.

 

[New Binky the Doormat]

Sea mining lithium is theoretically easier than crude. Not proven but it's getting there.

reaction.

wow ...wouldn't expect anything less from you ...

 

[belljr]

Stumbled on a new 2022 accord for I think a decent price. Put an offer in. Will see tomorrow what's what

 

[fruity pebbles]

Gotta say the Chevy Bolts are a pretty incredible bargain right now. Roughly 20 grand flat after the federal rebate, qualifying discounts, state rebates etc.

 

[pollardsvision]

Stumbled on a new 2022 accord for I think a decent price. Put an offer in. Will see tomorrow what's what

Honda prices coming down generally as they bring back the base models.

It's nice to see a car maker that seems to understand that most folks can't buy a $70K vehicle.

 

[Penguin]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

 

[RCon]

Gotta say the Chevy Bolts are a pretty incredible bargain right now. Roughly 20 grand flat after the federal rebate, qualifying discounts, state rebates etc.

Really want to pull the trigger on one of these, but they're a little smaller than what I need and no AWD.

 

[belljr]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

 

[ChiefD]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

I just did a quick look at KC area Honda dealers. Looks like 3.9% for 48 months or 4.9% for 60.

 

[belljr]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

I just did a quick look at KC area Honda dealers. Looks like 3.9% for 48 months or 4.9% for 60.

Thats on a 2023..... not sure how this works out

I pre qualifed with 2 other lenders - one at 6.4 one at 6.6 here in NJ....

Ill probably do 60 since its the first time in my life ill have 2 car payments lol

The dealership opens in about 5 minutes so ill see if i get a call - it might not be in stock

 

[the moops]

Gotta say the Chevy Bolts are a pretty incredible bargain right now. Roughly 20 grand flat after the federal rebate, qualifying discounts, state rebates etc.

Really want to pull the trigger on one of these, but they're a little smaller than what I need and no AWD.

As I have alluded to above, we are getting one. Keeps getting delayed, initially was supposed to be last week, now it is next week.

But question for ya, for we wrestled with similar debates. How often do you need a larger vehicle? How often and why do you need AWD? Our 2nd car is a van, so that settled the smaller vehicle problem, and we have lived without AWD and find it is just fine with a heavy vehicle and good snow tires

 

[RCon]

But question for ya, for we wrestled with similar debates. How often do you need a larger vehicle? How often and why do you need AWD? Our 2nd car is a van, so that settled the smaller vehicle problem, and we have lived without AWD and find it is just fine with a heavy vehicle and good snow tires

"Need" the extra space a few times a year. Useful, but could probably make do without it, a couple times a month. Unfortunately, there is no second car, so the one has to cover all use cases.

I'd probably be OK without AWD, in part due to prevalence of work from home. Fair enough to call AWD a nice to have.

 

[belljr]

Car price offer excepted. Now just waiting on finance numbers and going in at 2 to look it over and run the official numbers

 

[ChiefD]

Car price offer excepted. Now just waiting on finance numbers and going in at 2 to look it over and run the official numbers

Stand firm on that undercoating they will try and sell you.

 

[belljr]

Car price offer excepted. Now just waiting on finance numbers and going in at 2 to look it over and run the official numbers

Stand firm on that undercoating they will try and sell you.

The full scotch guard package imo

 

[ChiefD]

Car price offer excepted. Now just waiting on finance numbers and going in at 2 to look it over and run the official numbers

Stand firm on that undercoating they will try and sell you.

The full scotch guard package imo

I might go ahead and get the extended warranty though.

Would be worth it to avoid all those phones calls for the next 15 years.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

I just did a quick look at KC area Honda dealers. Looks like 3.9% for 48 months or 4.9% for 60.

That’s higher than my mortgage rate! Thanks @Chadstroma !!!

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

 

[fruity pebbles]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

 

[culdeus]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

Does a fully loaded Honda Accord mean it comes with fuzzy dice installed?

 

[massraider]

Does a fully loaded Honda Accord mean it comes with fuzzy dice installed?

PS5

 

[belljr]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

I just did a quick look at KC area Honda dealers. Looks like 3.9% for 48 months or 4.9% for 60.

That’s higher than my mortgage rate! Thanks @Chadstroma !!!

My mortgage rate from 10 years ago is 2.85 so that's not being beat

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

 

[fruity pebbles]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

It's closer to 20k after rebates. It's also a full electric. I spend around $200 in gas a month and have free charging stations at work. The $400 a month payment is essentially $200 a month.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

It's closer to 20k after rebates. It's also a full electric. I spend around $200 in gas a month and have free charging stations at work. The $400 a month payment is essentially $200 a month.

Fair enough. I would prefer to buy an 1987 Honda Crx. 52-70 MPG and no microchips.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

It's closer to 20k after rebates. It's also a full electric. I spend around $200 in gas a month and have free charging stations at work. The $400 a month payment is essentially $200 a month.

Fair enough. I would prefer to buy an 1987 Honda Crx. 52-70 MPG and no microchips.

I get it. I drive a 96 Lexus. That said it's getting harder and harder to get parts for.

 

[belljr]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

I just did a quick look at KC area Honda dealers. Looks like 3.9% for 48 months or 4.9% for 60.

Thats on a 2023..... not sure how this works out

I pre qualifed with 2 other lenders - one at 6.4 one at 6.6 here in NJ....

Ill probably do 60 since its the first time in my life ill have 2 car payments lol

The dealership opens in about 5 minutes so ill see if i get a call - it might not be in stock

Couldn't get the 2023 incentive.... They knocked another 1k off price. Waiting for finance guy but I'll be around 6%

This is not fully loaded it is a mid tier which I'm perfectly happy with

 

[Chadstroma]

Is it really hard with anyone with an 800+ credit score to get a good lease or car loan?

We are about to find out. The last deal I got I was very happy with. This is the first time I ever did the online thing so I'm not sure if the estimated apr is correct. If it is I will go somewhere else to shop loans

I just did a quick look at KC area Honda dealers. Looks like 3.9% for 48 months or 4.9% for 60.

That’s higher than my mortgage rate! Thanks @Chadstroma !!!

Rates heading south again a bit.... maybe we get back down there again.

 

[pollardsvision]

But question for ya, for we wrestled with similar debates. How often do you need a larger vehicle? How often and why do you need AWD? Our 2nd car is a van, so that settled the smaller vehicle problem, and we have lived without AWD and find it is just fine with a heavy vehicle and good snow tires

"Need" the extra space a few times a year. Useful, but could probably make do without it, a couple times a month. Unfortunately, there is no second car, so the one has to cover all use cases.

I'd probably be OK without AWD, in part due to prevalence of work from home. Fair enough to call AWD a nice to have.

It's really hard to beat a Subaru for a swiss army knife sort of vehicle with AWD and some space at a great price.

 

[pollardsvision]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

It's closer to 20k after rebates. It's also a full electric. I spend around $200 in gas a month and have free charging stations at work. The $400 a month payment is essentially $200 a month.

Fair enough. I would prefer to buy an 1987 Honda Crx. 52-70 MPG and no microchips.

I'd pay a stupid amount of money if I ran across an '87 CRX for sale.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

It's closer to 20k after rebates. It's also a full electric. I spend around $200 in gas a month and have free charging stations at work. The $400 a month payment is essentially $200 a month.

Fair enough. I would prefer to buy an 1987 Honda Crx. 52-70 MPG and no microchips.

I'd pay a stupid amount of money if I ran across an '87 CRX for sale.

Not a lot of them but they're attainable.

 

[pollardsvision]

Why would I buy a $30k Chevy when I can buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for that?

What Chevy are you referring to?

Any of them but I was talking bout the Chevy Bolt

It's closer to 20k after rebates. It's also a full electric. I spend around $200 in gas a month and have free charging stations at work. The $400 a month payment is essentially $200 a month.

Fair enough. I would prefer to buy an 1987 Honda Crx. 52-70 MPG and no microchips.

I'd pay a stupid amount of money if I ran across an '87 CRX for sale.

Not a lot of them but they're attainable.

Nice. I'd love one, but my definition of "stupid amount of money" is clearly very different from the rest of the old CRX buying community.

This 1990 Si is super sweet., but $40K is little much for me.