What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Catalan Referendum (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
The Irish who broke away from the U.K. In 1921 weren't living under a democracy. The U.K. had a democracy everywhere else but in Ireland it was a dictatorship. 
Click to expand...
this is incorrect. The island was ruled via a territorial governor but Ireland had 103 MPs. They simply were a gross minority that lacked any sort of political power or influence. 

After the Easter rising and its backlash as well as the continued failure of a home rule bill in Parliament, Sinn Fein won the 73 of the 103 seats in 1918 with the express commitment not to fill them. These MPs then created their own Parliament which declared Independence. 26 of the 30 non-SF seats were in the 6 counties that now are NIR. 

timschochet said:
Scotland's a different story, but I think there are laws in place which allow them to withdraw (which was not the case here.) 
Click to expand...
I'm not keen on these nationalist movements because I think a lot of the agitation is externally driven, but whether expressly allowed or not, people should have a right to self-determination.

Catalonia is a long conquered people. They didn't freely enter Spain and they have on multiple occasions tried to leave. 

 
Henry Ford said:
The Irish who haven't broken away from the UK are considering it as are the Scots.  And I didn't say anything about laws or lack of laws when making my statement. 
Click to expand...


I wouldn't take this too seriously.  Brexit is creating a lot of challenges for sure but NIR won't leave (I don't think). There are too many historical problems to sort through. That's just not an area where the peoples consider themselves one.

So despite the economic reasons, I can't see it getting traction. If it did, I think the US (and probably Ireland) would step in to stop it because it would almost certainly result in violence. They need a higher power governing them for another generation or two. 

 
CletiusMaximus said:
FC Barcelona joins the country wide strike called for by Table for Democracy and therefore the Club will be closed tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Commercially it's tough to be més que un club. I think they are handling this horribly by openly talking about leaving La Liga but I know they feel a duty to lead as they've long been the voice of Catalonia. 

And the National team is echoing some of the politics. Pique speaks out and now he's getting jeered in Madrid. 

 
prefontaine said:
this is incorrect. The island was ruled via a territorial governor but Ireland had 103 MPs. They simply were a gross minority that lacked any sort of political power or influence. 

After the Easter rising and its backlash as well as the continued failure of a home rule bill in Parliament, Sinn Fein won the 73 of the 103 seats in 1918 with the express commitment not to fill them. These MPs then created their own Parliament which declared Independence. 26 of the 30 non-SF seats were in the 6 counties that now are NIR. 
Click to expand...
They had MPs, but the country was governed from Dublin Castle as a dictatorship. Winston Churchill's Black and Tans clamped down on all political freedoms.

 
timschochet said:
They had MPs, but the country was governed from Dublin Castle as a dictatorship. Winston Churchill's Black and Tans clamped down on all political freedoms.
Click to expand...
you're mixing your history here Tim. The black and tans came after independence was declared. 

 
msommer said:
Only 42% of eligible voters voted (far fewr that previous nin binding votes). Many (pro Spain) voters stayed home to not legitimize the vote. It's essentially useless, but then again it always would be.
Click to expand...
The numbers are overwhelming, though.  If not for the Spanish Inquisition here the vote would have easily gone for independence.

 
Ireland declared its Independence in Jan 1919. The Black and Tans were sent in as a response. The war for independence was 1919 to 1921. The wiki link you provided pretty clearly spells that out too so I'm a bit confused as to what you are debating here. 

 
prefontaine said:
Ireland declared its Independence in Jan 1919. The Black and Tans were sent in as a response. The war for independence was 1919 to 1921. The wiki link you provided pretty clearly spells that out too so I'm a bit confused as to what you are debating here. 
Click to expand...
OK, we're just arguing over interpretation. The independence declared in 1919 was meaningless (much like the independence declared during the Easter Rising of 1916, or the Fenian Rising of 1857, or what happened in 1798, etc. etc.) If Ireland had been independent in 1919 there would have been no Black and Tans.

My original point to Henry was that Ireland was not a good example of a democracy splitting apart, because prior to 1922 Ireland was never a democracy. They had some aspects of democracy under the United Kingdom but their freedoms and economy were tightly controlled. Despite being part of the Act of Union, Ireland was treated by the British as a colony- more like India than like Scotland. (Northern Ireland, filled with loyal Protestants, was an exception of course.)

 
prefontaine said:
Commercially it's tough to be més que un club. I think they are handling this horribly by openly talking about leaving La Liga but I know they feel a duty to lead as they've long been the voice of Catalonia. 

And the National team is echoing some of the politics. Pique speaks out and now he's getting jeered in Madrid. 
Click to expand...
Can you clarify the first two sentences here?  Standing as a symbol for Cataluyna is exactly what Més que un club is about.  Are you saying that it hurts the status/success of the club?  Perhaps, but I doubt the socis care.

 
timschochet said:
OK, we're just arguing over interpretation. The independence declared in 1919 was meaningless (much like the independence declared during the Easter Rising of 1916, or the Fenian Rising of 1857, or what happened in 1798, etc. etc.) If Ireland had been independent in 1919 there would have been no Black and Tans.
Click to expand...
Sigh at this point I'm assuming you are just trying to obfuscate rather than just say you were wrong. The Irish established their own government in 1919. The B&Ts were specially sent in to suppress that government. They were not there for any other purpose. 

timschochet said:
My original point to Henry was that Ireland was not a good example of a democracy splitting apart, because prior to 1922 Ireland was never a democracy.
Click to expand...
And as I said originally, this is simply incorrect. The Irish people were a minority inside a democracy. They had voting rights. And they had representation. They were simply oppressed by the majority.

If your point is the British did a poor job protecting the rights of minorities. Agreed. Such protections are difficult to balance and we've had our share of failures on that front as well. But what I'm not following about this point is that appears more akin to Catalonia than different. 

 
Slapdash said:
Can you clarify the first two sentences here?  Standing as a symbol for Cataluyna is exactly what Més que un club is about.  Are you saying that it hurts the status/success of the club?  Perhaps, but I doubt the socis care.
Click to expand...
Yeah sorry, that was a jumbled mess. Barca's motto of more than a club means they can't sit out the politics. Historically their players and fans were Catatan and they were their voice. But today, they are worldwide. I'd guess the vast majority of their fanbase has no interest in Catalonia. 

Commercially they are probably better off steering clear. Their fans around the world just want to just watch Messi and if this impacts their ability to do so, it can cost them. But you're right as I think they are community owned and they don't care.  

 
prefontaine said:
Sigh at this point I'm assuming you are just trying to obfuscate rather than just say you were wrong. The Irish established their own government in 1919. The B&Ts were specially sent in to suppress that government. They were not there for any other purpose. 

And as I said originally, this is simply incorrect. The Irish people were a minority inside a democracy. They had voting rights. And they had representation. They were simply oppressed by the majority.

If your point is the British did a poor job protecting the rights of minorities. Agreed. Such protections are difficult to balance and we've had our share of failures on that front as well. But what I'm not following about this point is that appears more akin to Catalonia than different. 
Click to expand...
I honestly wasn't trying to obfuscate. My understand of modern Irish history is based on books I have read- specifically biographies of Michael Collins and Winston Churchill. I've never been to Ireland, so if I got something wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

But i continue to hold to my original point, which was that Abe Lincoln's statement, made at the beginning of our own civil war, that a democracy is an experiment which cannot succeed if sections of the nation decide on their own to leave the nation, was correct both then and now. And I don't think that Ireland serves as a good example to the contrary. (The dissolutions of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia during the 1990s is a better analogy to Catalonia, though I still disagree with the premise.)

 
Sand said:
The numbers are overwhelming, though.  If not for the Spanish Inquisition here the vote would have easily gone for independence.
Click to expand...
Every indication up to the vote still showed dead heat between the stay and go camps. Like last time they voted. No reason to suspect that has changed

 
Last edited by a moderator:
prefontaine said:
And the National team is echoing some of the politics. Pique speaks out and now he's getting jeered in Madrid. 
Click to expand...
Did Pique really "speak out"? So he's known to be proud of his heritage and he apparently voted in the referendum, but I thought his comments were benign. Not claiming expertise, but I think these Spanish "fans" are morons.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Did Pique really "speak out"? So he's known to be proud of his heritage and he apparently voted in the referendum, but I thought his comments were benign. Not claiming expertise, but I think these Spanish "fans" are morons.
Click to expand...
As far as I have read these past few days he is outspoken in favor of  Catalan independence.

So if he doesn't want to be Spanish, why is he playing on the Spanish national team?

That's a logical, not moronic, position to take.

 
msommer said:
As far as I have read these past few days he is outspoken in favor of  Catalan independence.

So if he doesn't want to be Spanish, why is he playing on the Spanish national team?

That's a logical, not moronic, position to take.
Click to expand...
Its moronic to show up to the national team practice only to disrupt the practice, throw things, and harass a player who has been a great servant to the national team since U16, won a world cup, a Euro Cup and numerous other honors for Spain.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Its moronic to show up to the national team practice only to disrupt the practice, throw things, and harass a player who has been a great servant to the national team since U16, won a world cup, a Euro Cup and numerous other honors for Spain.
Click to expand...
It's a pride in your country thing. I suppose you find no paralel in American life

 
ren hoek said:
right

wrong 

The least the EU (or any country that pretends to care about liberal values) could do is denounce police violence against people for the heinous act of voting.  unconstitutionally attempting to secede.
Click to expand...
The constitutional way of seceding is working to have the constitution changed. The Spanish constitution specifically says Spain is indivisable. The Catalans agreed to this wording.  The constitutional court ruled the Catalan vote illegal. The police is charged with preventing illegal acts

Is Rajoy a ham handed idiot? No argument from me,

Would he have been better off just ignoring the vote? IMHO, yes. But that way other issues lie that he might weigh more heavily than I.

Would Catalunya survive as a stand alone country which entails not being a member of the EU for a long period of time? Don't make me laugh.

 
The Catalan bank Sabadell is moving it's HQ outside of Catalunya to ensure continued access to European markets. Other banks and businesses are doing the same.

This is expressly a reaction to the movement for independence from Spain. 

 
msommer said:
The constitutional way of seceding is working to have the constitution changed. The Spanish constitution specifically says Spain is indivisable. The Catalans agreed to this wording.  
Click to expand...
No they didn't.  Many of them weren't even alive during the time it was ratified, so they couldn't possibly have agreed to anything.  Was each individual born after ratification asked personally if they'd agree to it, then signed off on it?  How did they consent to it?  Consent in this context, as with most arguments for a 'social contract,' is a total myth.  What if the police weren't beating down voters and the referendum was still 90% to leave Spain?  Too bad, sucks for them?  

msommer said:
The constitutional court ruled the Catalan vote illegal. The police is charged with preventing illegal acts
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter.  Do humans have the right to assemble as they see fit?  Or are they bound by agreements that happened without their input?   

msommer said:
Would Catalunya survive as a stand alone country which entails not being a member of the EU for a long period of time? Don't make me laugh.
Click to expand...
Good thing the EU is a laughing stock.  Looks like Catalonia doesn't really care about Spain or EU's opinion anymore. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ren hoek said:
No they didn't.  Many of them weren't even alive during the time it was ratified, so they couldn't possibly have agreed to anything.  Was each individual born after ratification asked personally if they'd agree to it, then signed off on it?  How did they consent to it?  Consent in this context, as with most arguments for a 'social contract,' is a total myth.  What if the police weren't beating down voters and the referendum was still 90% to leave Spain?  Too bad, sucks for them?  

Doesn't matter.  Do humans have the right to assemble as they see fit?  Or are they bound by agreements that happened without their input?   

Good thing the EU is a laughing stock.  Looks like Catalonia doesn't really care about Spain or EU's opinion anymore. 
Click to expand...
I should know better than to engage in political discourse with an anarchist. I'll endeavour to refeain feom committing this mistake again. Enjoy your day

 
msommer said:
I should know better than to engage in political discourse with an anarchist. I'll endeavour to refeain feom committing this mistake again. Enjoy your day
Click to expand...
It's weird that Catalonia would want independence from Spain.  They probably just want to reinstate slavery or something.  Oh well, have a good fridey chum 

 
So if you're Spain and citizens of Catalonia are violating the 'Constitution,' an agreement most of them never signed or agreed to in their life, and they're threatening to start running an independent state, what do you do?  

Do you point guns at them to put them in a cage?  How exactly does one go about establishing ownership over people that don't want you to rule them anymore?  

 
ren hoek said:
So if you're Spain and citizens of Catalonia are violating the 'Constitution,' an agreement most of them never signed or agreed to in their life, and they're threatening to start running an independent state, what do you do?  

Do you point guns at them to put them in a cage?  How exactly does one go about establishing ownership over people that don't want you to rule them anymore?  
Click to expand...
Likely. You know the answer to that. It becomes a bit of a messy situation.  

 
The contract, as theoretical as it is, can be breached. What happens in the breach is the first thing we should teach. Damages and remedies.  

 
ren hoek said:
So if you're Spain and citizens of Catalonia are violating the 'Constitution,' an agreement most of them never signed or agreed to in their life, and they're threatening to start running an independent state, what do you do?  

Do you point guns at them to put them in a cage?  How exactly does one go about establishing ownership over people that don't want you to rule them anymore?  
Click to expand...
You shut down the autonomy they do (used to) have and rule from Madrid

 
Last edited by a moderator:
msommer said:
You shut down the autonomy they do (used to) have and rule from Madrid
Click to expand...
What does shut down the autonomy mean?  Beat them with sticks and put them in cages until they comply?  Shoot them?  What specifically should Spain do to Catalonians in your opinion if they're not being compliant?  

 
ren hoek said:
What does shut down the autonomy mean?  Beat them with sticks and put them in cages until they comply?  Shoot them?  What specifically should Spain do to Catalonians in your opinion if they're not being compliant?  
Click to expand...
Where are you getting this stuff? That's not how Spain is.

 
ren hoek said:
What does shut down the autonomy mean?  Beat them with sticks and put them in cages until they comply?  Shoot them?  What specifically should Spain do to Catalonians in your opinion if they're not being compliant?  
Click to expand...
Wait. I'm not arguing hypotheticals here. I'm telling you what the Spanish government will do.

As for what shut down the autonomy means, you should educate yourself on current Catalan autonomy under the agreement with the Spanish state. It means shut down that.

 
msommer said:
Wait. I'm not arguing hypotheticals here. I'm telling you what the Spanish government will do.

As for what shut down the autonomy means, you should educate yourself on current Catalan autonomy under the agreement with the Spanish state. It means shut down that.
Click to expand...
There is no agreement.  Those people there didn't agree to anything.  

Just for the record, if it comes down to violence on the part of Spain to force Catalonians to stay, do you believe Spain would be morally justified?  

 
ren hoek said:
There is no agreement.  Those people there didn't agree to anything.  

Just for the record, if it comes down to violence on the part of Spain to force Catalonians to stay, do you believe Spain would be morally justified?  
Click to expand...
When the Catalans decide to act as the Basque, will they have been justified?

Let's leave the anarchism and hypotheticals aside and discuss the real world, shall we?

 
ren hoek said:
Were you paying attention to the referendum at all?  Something like 900 people injured.  Spanish police beating voters with batons and shooting them with rubber bullets.  
Click to expand...
Yes, I've got news for you, it was illegal, but Spain is not a brutal or cruel nation.

 
msommer said:
When the Catalans decide to act as the Basque, will they have been justified?

Let's leave the anarchism and hypotheticals aside and discuss the real world, shall we?
Click to expand...
I think they are going about it as peacefully as possible. They certainly aren't the one initiating violence.    

It is reality.  None of them consented to or asked for any of this.  That is the real world.  The notion that a handful of people deserve to have control over a second group of people, forever, based on an arbitrary piece of paper the second party never acknowledged is fantasy.  

What gets me is seeing people I would think have respect for human rights, the basic dignity of self-determination, actually believe in violence and authoritarianism.  What's so bad about letting them go?  

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

GordonGekko
Schumer's Radical Abortion Gamble Of "Up To The Moment Of Birth" Will Backfire (5/11/22 00:52 PST)
Replies
19
Views
713
GordonGekko
GordonGekko
Joe Bryant
Election Deniers Are Bad, Right?
20 21 22
Replies
1K
Views
29K
knowledge dropper
knowledge dropper
glvsav37
Hulu and the Political Ads Issue
2
Replies
67
Views
2K
Desert_Power
Desert_Power

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top