CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
FC BarcelonaVerified account @FCBarcelona 5h5 hours ago
FC Barcelona joins the country wide strike called for by Table for Democracy and therefore the Club will be closed tomorrow.
FC BarcelonaVerified account @FCBarcelona 5h5 hours ago
FC Barcelona joins the country wide strike called for by Table for Democracy and therefore the Club will be closed tomorrow.
It could be that voters didn't show up to the polls because police were beating them downPhil Elliott said:And many didn't have a place to vote.
this is incorrect. The island was ruled via a territorial governor but Ireland had 103 MPs. They simply were a gross minority that lacked any sort of political power or influence.The Irish who broke away from the U.K. In 1921 weren't living under a democracy. The U.K. had a democracy everywhere else but in Ireland it was a dictatorship.
I'm not keen on these nationalist movements because I think a lot of the agitation is externally driven, but whether expressly allowed or not, people should have a right to self-determination.Scotland's a different story, but I think there are laws in place which allow them to withdraw (which was not the case here.)
The Irish who haven't broken away from the UK are considering it as are the Scots. And I didn't say anything about laws or lack of laws when making my statement.
Commercially it's tough to be més que un club. I think they are handling this horribly by openly talking about leaving La Liga but I know they feel a duty to lead as they've long been the voice of Catalonia.FC Barcelona joins the country wide strike called for by Table for Democracy and therefore the Club will be closed tomorrow.
They had MPs, but the country was governed from Dublin Castle as a dictatorship. Winston Churchill's Black and Tans clamped down on all political freedoms.this is incorrect. The island was ruled via a territorial governor but Ireland had 103 MPs. They simply were a gross minority that lacked any sort of political power or influence.
After the Easter rising and its backlash as well as the continued failure of a home rule bill in Parliament, Sinn Fein won the 73 of the 103 seats in 1918 with the express commitment not to fill them. These MPs then created their own Parliament which declared Independence. 26 of the 30 non-SF seats were in the 6 counties that now are NIR.
you're mixing your history here Tim. The black and tans came after independence was declared.They had MPs, but the country was governed from Dublin Castle as a dictatorship. Winston Churchill's Black and Tans clamped down on all political freedoms.
The numbers are overwhelming, though. If not for the Spanish Inquisition here the vote would have easily gone for independence.msommer said:Only 42% of eligible voters voted (far fewr that previous nin binding votes). Many (pro Spain) voters stayed home to not legitimize the vote. It's essentially useless, but then again it always would be.
I don't think so.you're mixing your history here Tim. The black and tans came after independence was declared.
OK, we're just arguing over interpretation. The independence declared in 1919 was meaningless (much like the independence declared during the Easter Rising of 1916, or the Fenian Rising of 1857, or what happened in 1798, etc. etc.) If Ireland had been independent in 1919 there would have been no Black and Tans.Ireland declared its Independence in Jan 1919. The Black and Tans were sent in as a response. The war for independence was 1919 to 1921. The wiki link you provided pretty clearly spells that out too so I'm a bit confused as to what you are debating here.
Can you clarify the first two sentences here? Standing as a symbol for Cataluyna is exactly what Més que un club is about. Are you saying that it hurts the status/success of the club? Perhaps, but I doubt the socis care.Commercially it's tough to be més que un club. I think they are handling this horribly by openly talking about leaving La Liga but I know they feel a duty to lead as they've long been the voice of Catalonia.
And the National team is echoing some of the politics. Pique speaks out and now he's getting jeered in Madrid.
Sigh at this point I'm assuming you are just trying to obfuscate rather than just say you were wrong. The Irish established their own government in 1919. The B&Ts were specially sent in to suppress that government. They were not there for any other purpose.OK, we're just arguing over interpretation. The independence declared in 1919 was meaningless (much like the independence declared during the Easter Rising of 1916, or the Fenian Rising of 1857, or what happened in 1798, etc. etc.) If Ireland had been independent in 1919 there would have been no Black and Tans.
And as I said originally, this is simply incorrect. The Irish people were a minority inside a democracy. They had voting rights. And they had representation. They were simply oppressed by the majority.My original point to Henry was that Ireland was not a good example of a democracy splitting apart, because prior to 1922 Ireland was never a democracy.
Yeah sorry, that was a jumbled mess. Barca's motto of more than a club means they can't sit out the politics. Historically their players and fans were Catatan and they were their voice. But today, they are worldwide. I'd guess the vast majority of their fanbase has no interest in Catalonia.Can you clarify the first two sentences here? Standing as a symbol for Cataluyna is exactly what Més que un club is about. Are you saying that it hurts the status/success of the club? Perhaps, but I doubt the socis care.
I honestly wasn't trying to obfuscate. My understand of modern Irish history is based on books I have read- specifically biographies of Michael Collins and Winston Churchill. I've never been to Ireland, so if I got something wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.Sigh at this point I'm assuming you are just trying to obfuscate rather than just say you were wrong. The Irish established their own government in 1919. The B&Ts were specially sent in to suppress that government. They were not there for any other purpose.
And as I said originally, this is simply incorrect. The Irish people were a minority inside a democracy. They had voting rights. And they had representation. They were simply oppressed by the majority.
If your point is the British did a poor job protecting the rights of minorities. Agreed. Such protections are difficult to balance and we've had our share of failures on that front as well. But what I'm not following about this point is that appears more akin to Catalonia than different.
Every indication up to the vote still showed dead heat between the stay and go camps. Like last time they voted. No reason to suspect that has changedThe numbers are overwhelming, though. If not for the Spanish Inquisition here the vote would have easily gone for independence.
Did Pique really "speak out"? So he's known to be proud of his heritage and he apparently voted in the referendum, but I thought his comments were benign. Not claiming expertise, but I think these Spanish "fans" are morons.And the National team is echoing some of the politics. Pique speaks out and now he's getting jeered in Madrid.
As far as I have read these past few days he is outspoken in favor of Catalan independence.Did Pique really "speak out"? So he's known to be proud of his heritage and he apparently voted in the referendum, but I thought his comments were benign. Not claiming expertise, but I think these Spanish "fans" are morons.
Its moronic to show up to the national team practice only to disrupt the practice, throw things, and harass a player who has been a great servant to the national team since U16, won a world cup, a Euro Cup and numerous other honors for Spain.As far as I have read these past few days he is outspoken in favor of Catalan independence.
So if he doesn't want to be Spanish, why is he playing on the Spanish national team?
That's a logical, not moronic, position to take.
It's a pride in your country thing. I suppose you find no paralel in American lifeIts moronic to show up to the national team practice only to disrupt the practice, throw things, and harass a player who has been a great servant to the national team since U16, won a world cup, a Euro Cup and numerous other honors for Spain.
We have idiots here too, who parade their stupidity in the false guise of national pride.It's a pride in your country thing. I suppose you find no paralel in American life
Nato intervenes in Libya - "Warmongering. Imperialism"On the EU's pathetic response to violence in Catalonia
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/862201/catalonia-referendum-barcelona-catalan-eu-response-violence-police-independence-spain-news
rightNato intervenes in Libya - "Warmongering. Imperialism"
wrongEU says, Catalan issue is Spanish, not European - "Pathetic"
The constitutional way of seceding is working to have the constitution changed. The Spanish constitution specifically says Spain is indivisable. The Catalans agreed to this wording. The constitutional court ruled the Catalan vote illegal. The police is charged with preventing illegal actsright
wrong
The least the EU (or any country that pretends to care about liberal values) could do is denounce police violence against people for the heinous act ofvoting.unconstitutionally attempting to secede.
We have idiots here too, who parade their stupidity in the false guise of national pride.
No they didn't. Many of them weren't even alive during the time it was ratified, so they couldn't possibly have agreed to anything. Was each individual born after ratification asked personally if they'd agree to it, then signed off on it? How did they consent to it? Consent in this context, as with most arguments for a 'social contract,' is a total myth. What if the police weren't beating down voters and the referendum was still 90% to leave Spain? Too bad, sucks for them?The constitutional way of seceding is working to have the constitution changed. The Spanish constitution specifically says Spain is indivisable. The Catalans agreed to this wording.
Doesn't matter. Do humans have the right to assemble as they see fit? Or are they bound by agreements that happened without their input?The constitutional court ruled the Catalan vote illegal. The police is charged with preventing illegal acts
Good thing the EU is a laughing stock. Looks like Catalonia doesn't really care about Spain or EU's opinion anymore.Would Catalunya survive as a stand alone country which entails not being a member of the EU for a long period of time? Don't make me laugh.
I should know better than to engage in political discourse with an anarchist. I'll endeavour to refeain feom committing this mistake again. Enjoy your dayNo they didn't. Many of them weren't even alive during the time it was ratified, so they couldn't possibly have agreed to anything. Was each individual born after ratification asked personally if they'd agree to it, then signed off on it? How did they consent to it? Consent in this context, as with most arguments for a 'social contract,' is a total myth. What if the police weren't beating down voters and the referendum was still 90% to leave Spain? Too bad, sucks for them?
Doesn't matter. Do humans have the right to assemble as they see fit? Or are they bound by agreements that happened without their input?
Good thing the EU is a laughing stock. Looks like Catalonia doesn't really care about Spain or EU's opinion anymore.
It's weird that Catalonia would want independence from Spain. They probably just want to reinstate slavery or something. Oh well, have a good fridey chumI should know better than to engage in political discourse with an anarchist. I'll endeavour to refeain feom committing this mistake again. Enjoy your day
There have never been so many Spanish flags in Barcelona
Likely. You know the answer to that. It becomes a bit of a messy situation.So if you're Spain and citizens of Catalonia are violating the 'Constitution,' an agreement most of them never signed or agreed to in their life, and they're threatening to start running an independent state, what do you do?
Do you point guns at them to put them in a cage? How exactly does one go about establishing ownership over people that don't want you to rule them anymore?
You shut down the autonomy they do (used to) have and rule from MadridSo if you're Spain and citizens of Catalonia are violating the 'Constitution,' an agreement most of them never signed or agreed to in their life, and they're threatening to start running an independent state, what do you do?
Do you point guns at them to put them in a cage? How exactly does one go about establishing ownership over people that don't want you to rule them anymore?
What does shut down the autonomy mean? Beat them with sticks and put them in cages until they comply? Shoot them? What specifically should Spain do to Catalonians in your opinion if they're not being compliant?You shut down the autonomy they do (used to) have and rule from Madrid
Where are you getting this stuff? That's not how Spain is.What does shut down the autonomy mean? Beat them with sticks and put them in cages until they comply? Shoot them? What specifically should Spain do to Catalonians in your opinion if they're not being compliant?
It's not? Orwell down?Where are you getting this stuff? That's not how Spain is.
Wait. I'm not arguing hypotheticals here. I'm telling you what the Spanish government will do.What does shut down the autonomy mean? Beat them with sticks and put them in cages until they comply? Shoot them? What specifically should Spain do to Catalonians in your opinion if they're not being compliant?
Post-Franco they have been the model of Euro cultural respect. Every country in Europe has these ethic issues of course, but after Franco Spain went to great lengths to accommodate the Catalonians.It's not? Orwell down?
Were you paying attention to the referendum at all? Something like 900 people injured. Spanish police beating voters with batons and shooting them with rubber bullets.Where are you getting this stuff? That's not how Spain is.
There is no agreement. Those people there didn't agree to anything.Wait. I'm not arguing hypotheticals here. I'm telling you what the Spanish government will do.
As for what shut down the autonomy means, you should educate yourself on current Catalan autonomy under the agreement with the Spanish state. It means shut down that.
When the Catalans decide to act as the Basque, will they have been justified?There is no agreement. Those people there didn't agree to anything.
Just for the record, if it comes down to violence on the part of Spain to force Catalonians to stay, do you believe Spain would be morally justified?
Yes, I've got news for you, it was illegal, but Spain is not a brutal or cruel nation.Were you paying attention to the referendum at all? Something like 900 people injured. Spanish police beating voters with batons and shooting them with rubber bullets.
Rajoy is an idiot, though...Yes, I've got news for you, it was illegal, but Spain is not a brutal or cruel nation.
Sorry who is Pileus and why is/are he/they so invested in Brexit and Catalnian issues?
About
The Pileus is a media group that was set up in 2016 in order to counter the narrative from the corporate-owned mainstream media. We like to focus on issues as well as give points of view that are normally ignored by the mainstream media.
I think they are going about it as peacefully as possible. They certainly aren't the one initiating violence.When the Catalans decide to act as the Basque, will they have been justified?
Let's leave the anarchism and hypotheticals aside and discuss the real world, shall we?