CC Sabathia (1 Viewer)

[TLEF316]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

 

[Michael Brown]

And don't tell me that Johan is SO much better than CC. The numbers are comparable enough no matter what stat you look at.

Career Postseason StatsSabathia: 2-3, 7.92 ERA, 25 IP, 33 H, 22 ER, 22 BB, 24 SO

Santana: 1-3, 3.97 ERA, 34 IP, 35 H, 15 ER, 10 BB, 32 SO

Oh I'm sorry...have you got anything larger than a 5-game sample size for either guy? Under this argument, neither guy is worth more than $5 mil per year and Sabathia should actually have to pay the Yankees to play for them.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Is this a done deal yet? I'm seeing mixed signals.

I don't like long term pitching contracts, so I don't like the deal talked about at all. Not too sure I'm going to like him on the team either given what appears to be a lack of desire to actually play in New York.

A lefty in his relative prime that can eat some innings and has Ace stuff.... It's a net positive to have him on the team. For now. But any contract over 4 for a pitcher is a mistake.

 

[dparker713]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

160M is not almost the same as 137.5M. And this will cost them draft picks. Now, if they hadnt outbid the field by 60M this would be a better argument.

 

[Michael Brown]

Most people would agree that the three most recent seasons are the most meaningful in determining a player's ability. So, from 2006-2008...

Santana (turns 30 just before Opening Day)

101 GS

687 IP

50-26 (.658 WP)

2.87 ERA

686 K/162 BB (4.2 K/BB ratio)

1.07 WHIP

5 CG

1 Cy Young

$23 million/year

Sabathia (turns 29 just after the All-Star break)

97 GS

686 IP

48-28 (.632 WP)

3.03 ERA

632/140 BB (4.5 K/BB ratio)

1.14 WHIP

20 CG (I know it's not a very relevant stat, but I like the workhorse aspect of CC)

1 Cy Young

$23 million/year

So tell me, which category are these two wildly different in over the last three seasons? Not including the fact that the Yankees didn't give up any players to get CC.

 

[blackjack23]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players. I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Yankees can win no matter what way you look at it. at people in this thread. CC = Mussina? Are you ####in kidding me? Now there is a possibility that CC doesnt last the whole 7 yrs and I kind of agree with Cappy here but its a risk the Yanks need to make. And to say this doesnt make them better is just ludicrous. Does this get them out of 3rd place? Im not sure about that and I agree they have more work to do. But to say the Yanks botched the Johan sweepstakes and now saying the Yanks made a mistake getting CC is hypocritical. Johan got a 7yr deal and has actually shown more signs of breaking down than CC so far.

 

[blackjack23]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

160M is not almost the same as 137.5M. And this will cost them draft picks. Now, if they hadnt outbid the field by 60M this would be a better argument.

23 mil over 7 yrs is pennies to the Yankees. Lets be serious here.

 

[Dope]

When the Yankees follow this up by signing Lowe, all this 3rd place talk is going to be pretty funny.

 

[Sammy3469]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

 

[wadegarrett]

And don't tell me that Johan is SO much better than CC. The numbers are comparable enough no matter what stat you look at.

Career Postseason StatsSabathia: 2-3, 7.92 ERA, 25 IP, 33 H, 22 ER, 22 BB, 24 SO

Santana: 1-3, 3.97 ERA, 34 IP, 35 H, 15 ER, 10 BB, 32 SO

Oh I'm sorry...have you got anything larger than a 5-game sample size for either guy?

I think you missed the part about Postseason. That's the entire sample size. And in that entire sample size CC has S U C K E D.

 

[Capella]

Yea Michael if you're ignoring CC's playoff performances you have blinders on. Guys don't get 30-game sample sizes in the playoffs. It's fair to look at a 5, 6 game sample over 3 years.

We'll see how it goes, but as a Rays fan, the thought of seeing a 330-lb Sabathia dripping wet on the mound in the playoffs doesn't worry me.

 

[TLEF316]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

 

[Workhorse]

When the Yankees follow this up by signing Lowe, all this 3rd place talk is going to be pretty funny.

Not half as funny as watching Derek Lowe back in the AL East with that swiss cheese infield defense behind him. You want him for 4 years and $16 mil per? Good luck with all that...

 

[TLEF316]

When the Yankees follow this up by signing Lowe, all this 3rd place talk is going to be pretty funny.

Not half as funny as watching Derek Lowe back in the AL East with that swiss cheese infield defense behind him. You want him for 4 years and $16 mil per? Good luck with all that...

This, i agree with. Puting Lowe in front of that infield would be an awful decision.

 

[Reaper]

at the yankees. do you guys realize the goal is the world series (or how about the playoffs for that matter), not to spend the most money?

Didn't this help to do both?

Did it?You effectively replace Mussina (last year's ERA+: 132) with Sabathia (career ERA+: 121)... The Yankees, as currently constituted, are still a 3rd place team.

Last year aside.. Moose was not an Ace.If Moose came back I'd expect a pretty big drop off from last year. That hate in this thread is a Hoot... We all knew last year when they bypassed Santana that they were going to go after CC this year...And the Yankees won 89 games last year, not that horrible given the circumstances.

 

[dparker713]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

Who knows what was actually offered last year, but the reports claimed the Twins would have accepted a deal that didnt include either Hughes or Joba. If the Yanks had ponied up Kennedy (who sucks) and Melky (who kinda sucks) plus another player they'd have gotten Johan. This was a needed addition to the Yanks, but 7 years for any pitcher is insane. I mean, Hampton just finished his mega deal, think how disasterous that was. Plus, make whatever comparisons you want to Johan (and yes the increase in HR is troubling), but CC had a dead arm to start this past season and he threw on 3 days rest a ridiculous number of times to end this season. Its just another case of the Yankees overspending to fill a need.

 

[=Smackdown=]

I fully expect the Yankees to sign Lowe, Burnett and Manny by this afternoon.

Get your cameras ready !

 

[Michael Brown]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

I've never agreed more with a post than I do with this one.As far as the postseason stats, for years I was told (on this board) that there was no correlation between A-Rod's postseason failures and some sort of trend. It was too small a sample size, and what I should look at is regular season numbers. So now, three years later, I'm told that Sabathia's postseason career of five starts is suddenly a large enough sample size to determine that he's not close to Santana in playoff ability? Based on 5 games? That's silly.

I'm not saying he's been a great, or even good, playoff pitcher. All I'm saying is that there is no measurable stat that can show me Santana is all that much better than CC. If you want to use a 5 game sample size in which neither player has been all that effective, by all means go for it but I'm not sure it's the slam-dunk winner you think it is.

I fail to see the huge discrepancy between the two guys, and like TLEF says above, give me CC and a potential ace down the line over just Johan every time. Anyone who disputes that is just being ridiculous.

Red Sox fans, would you rather have CC and Buchholz or just Santana?

Tiger fans, CC and Porcello or just Santana?

Rays fans, CC and Wade or just Santana?

You get the point.

 

[TLEF316]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

Who knows what was actually offered last year, but the reports claimed the Twins would have accepted a deal that didnt include either Hughes or Joba. If the Yanks had ponied up Kennedy (who sucks) and Melky (who kinda sucks) plus another player they'd have gotten Johan. This was a needed addition to the Yanks, but 7 years for any pitcher is insane. I mean, Hampton just finished his mega deal, think how disasterous that was. Plus, make whatever comparisons you want to Johan (and yes the increase in HR is troubling), but CC had a dead arm to start this past season and he threw on 3 days rest a ridiculous number of times to end this season. Its just another case of the Yankees overspending to fill a need.

FWIW, i dont believe the Twins were ever taking A hughes-less deal for Santana. I think they just floated this after the fact to object to the idea that they were charging a "Yankee Tax".

 

[dparker713]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

Who knows what was actually offered last year, but the reports claimed the Twins would have accepted a deal that didnt include either Hughes or Joba. If the Yanks had ponied up Kennedy (who sucks) and Melky (who kinda sucks) plus another player they'd have gotten Johan. This was a needed addition to the Yanks, but 7 years for any pitcher is insane. I mean, Hampton just finished his mega deal, think how disasterous that was. Plus, make whatever comparisons you want to Johan (and yes the increase in HR is troubling), but CC had a dead arm to start this past season and he threw on 3 days rest a ridiculous number of times to end this season. Its just another case of the Yankees overspending to fill a need.

FWIW, i dont believe the Twins were ever taking A hughes-less deal for Santana. I think they just floated this after the fact to object to the idea that they were charging a "Yankee Tax".

Key to that proposal was Melky was the most proven young CF they were being offered, none of the other deals included a player that had proven capable of playing day to day in the bigs. Considering the players the mets traded, it would seem that the Yanks could have made an offer that might have been one or two prospects plus Kennedy and Melky. And I know Yankee fans still think Hughes has a high ceiling, but maybe its just not a ceiling he can reach in the Bronx.

 

[Reaper]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players. I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

This stuff is hilarious.... All predictable though.. We all said it last year. The choice was Santana now and give up the young guys or hopefully get CC later and the young guys produce...I still think Hughes can be pretty good..So, as a fan I sit here today with CC AND Hughes and feel pretty good about things...They won 89 games last year, and BOTTOM LINE, Kudos to the Rays, I think it was more about them stepping up than the Yankees completely falling off a cliff.Wasn't a Big Moose fan myself so, even if you want to exchange Moose of CC, I didn't see Moose matching last years #'s at all...

 

[TLEF316]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

Who knows what was actually offered last year, but the reports claimed the Twins would have accepted a deal that didnt include either Hughes or Joba. If the Yanks had ponied up Kennedy (who sucks) and Melky (who kinda sucks) plus another player they'd have gotten Johan. This was a needed addition to the Yanks, but 7 years for any pitcher is insane. I mean, Hampton just finished his mega deal, think how disasterous that was. Plus, make whatever comparisons you want to Johan (and yes the increase in HR is troubling), but CC had a dead arm to start this past season and he threw on 3 days rest a ridiculous number of times to end this season. Its just another case of the Yankees overspending to fill a need.

FWIW, i dont believe the Twins were ever taking A hughes-less deal for Santana. I think they just floated this after the fact to object to the idea that they were charging a "Yankee Tax".

Key to that proposal was Melky was the most proven young CF they were being offered, none of the other deals included a player that had proven capable of playing day to day in the bigs. Considering the players the mets traded, it would seem that the Yanks could have made an offer that might have been one or two prospects plus Kennedy and Melky. And I know Yankee fans still think Hughes has a high ceiling, but maybe its just not a ceiling he can reach in the Bronx.

I'm not even close to writing Hughes off. He's like 23 and has had ZERO full seasons. He got hurt 2 times, which is a concern. But i still have faith. He's got good stuff and seemed very mature during his initial call up.

 

[blackjack23]

Yanks offered Sheets 2 yr deal. If he accepts that Id be estatic. Hes better than Burnett & Lowe. He has problems staying healthy but 2 yrs isnt too risky and any games he doesnt pitch can be started by our #6 starter who will be Hughes. Please get this done!

 

[Capella]

I don't get why everyone is discussing Johan. Water under the bridge.

MB - I'd rather have CC and Wade than Johan, of course. Berating the Yanks for not getting Johan is a dead horse at this point, as I'm not sure they make the playoffs with him last year. Maybe they do, he was probably worth 7-8 wins over their 5th spot in the rotation but there's little use in rehashing it.

CC adds value to the Yanks, but not the 7-8 wins needed to improve to capture the division. Their SS defense is still inexcusable, they have 2-3 more rotation spots to fill (depending on what you think of Joba) and what seems like a galaxy of offensive issues. And if they sign Lowe it's a major error considering the lack of range Jeter has. Burnett too, as he's a flake.

I still think it's a 3rd-place club. They keep throwing money at the problem and it keeps failing.

 

[Sammy3469]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

I've never agreed more with a post than I do with this one.As far as the postseason stats, for years I was told (on this board) that there was no correlation between A-Rod's postseason failures and some sort of trend. It was too small a sample size, and what I should look at is regular season numbers. So now, three years later, I'm told that Sabathia's postseason career of five starts is suddenly a large enough sample size to determine that he's not close to Santana in playoff ability? Based on 5 games? That's silly.

I'm not saying he's been a great, or even good, playoff pitcher. All I'm saying is that there is no measurable stat that can show me Santana is all that much better than CC. If you want to use a 5 game sample size in which neither player has been all that effective, by all means go for it but I'm not sure it's the slam-dunk winner you think it is.

I fail to see the huge discrepancy between the two guys, and like TLEF says above, give me CC and a potential ace down the line over just Johan every time. Anyone who disputes that is just being ridiculous.

Red Sox fans, would you rather have CC and Buchholz or just Santana?

Tiger fans, CC and Porcello or just Santana?

Rays fans, CC and Wade or just Santana?

You get the point.

That's all well and good, but you gave up a year of Santana (and probably the playoffs) to save the potential of Hughes (or whoever) becoming good while giving up a first round pick this year while overpaying for Sabathia. It's not being ridiculous to say that I'd rather have had Santana this year especially since they still look like they're going to sign one of Burnett, Lowe, and Sheets making whatever young stud at best a #5 starter. All Cashman's doing now is chasing his tail after blowing the Santana trade.Having said they need to address the offense more than the pitching.

 

[Sammy3469]

I don't get why everyone is discussing Johan. Water under the bridge.MB - I'd rather have CC and Wade than Johan, of course. Berating the Yanks for not getting Johan is a dead horse at this point, as I'm not sure they make the playoffs with him last year. Maybe they do, he was probably worth 7-8 wins over their 5th spot in the rotation but there's little use in rehashing it.CC adds value to the Yanks, but not the 7-8 wins needed to improve to capture the division. Their SS defense is still inexcusable, they have 2-3 more rotation spots to fill (depending on what you think of Joba) and what seems like a galaxy of offensive issues. And if they sign Lowe it's a major error considering the lack of range Jeter has. Burnett too, as he's a flake.I still think it's a 3rd-place club. They keep throwing money at the problem and it keeps failing.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

Who knows what was actually offered last year, but the reports claimed the Twins would have accepted a deal that didnt include either Hughes or Joba. If the Yanks had ponied up Kennedy (who sucks) and Melky (who kinda sucks) plus another player they'd have gotten Johan. This was a needed addition to the Yanks, but 7 years for any pitcher is insane. I mean, Hampton just finished his mega deal, think how disasterous that was. Plus, make whatever comparisons you want to Johan (and yes the increase in HR is troubling), but CC had a dead arm to start this past season and he threw on 3 days rest a ridiculous number of times to end this season. Its just another case of the Yankees overspending to fill a need.

FWIW, i dont believe the Twins were ever taking A hughes-less deal for Santana. I think they just floated this after the fact to object to the idea that they were charging a "Yankee Tax".

Key to that proposal was Melky was the most proven young CF they were being offered, none of the other deals included a player that had proven capable of playing day to day in the bigs. Considering the players the mets traded, it would seem that the Yanks could have made an offer that might have been one or two prospects plus Kennedy and Melky. And I know Yankee fans still think Hughes has a high ceiling, but maybe its just not a ceiling he can reach in the Bronx.

I'm not even close to writing Hughes off. He's like 23 and has had ZERO full seasons. He got hurt 2 times, which is a concern. But i still have faith. He's got good stuff and seemed very mature during his initial call up.

But potential ace? Come on.

 

[Finless]

Not a terrible deal but I see at least 3 years of disappointment with this contract. 5 years down the road an under-performing CC and 4 other terribly bloated contracts will be on the Yankees books as they overpay and under-perform once again with a depleted farm system.

Why the extra 60 Million? Why not just 30 more?

 

[Finless]

Yanks offered Sheets 2 yr deal. If he accepts that Id be estatic. Hes better than Burnett & Lowe. He has problems staying healthy but 2 yrs isnt too risky and any games he doesnt pitch can be started by our #6 starter who will be Hughes. Please get this done!

2 years 45 Mil with a 25 mil option for a 3rd?

 

[TLEF316]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

Who knows what was actually offered last year, but the reports claimed the Twins would have accepted a deal that didnt include either Hughes or Joba. If the Yanks had ponied up Kennedy (who sucks) and Melky (who kinda sucks) plus another player they'd have gotten Johan. This was a needed addition to the Yanks, but 7 years for any pitcher is insane. I mean, Hampton just finished his mega deal, think how disasterous that was. Plus, make whatever comparisons you want to Johan (and yes the increase in HR is troubling), but CC had a dead arm to start this past season and he threw on 3 days rest a ridiculous number of times to end this season. Its just another case of the Yankees overspending to fill a need.

FWIW, i dont believe the Twins were ever taking A hughes-less deal for Santana. I think they just floated this after the fact to object to the idea that they were charging a "Yankee Tax".

Key to that proposal was Melky was the most proven young CF they were being offered, none of the other deals included a player that had proven capable of playing day to day in the bigs. Considering the players the mets traded, it would seem that the Yanks could have made an offer that might have been one or two prospects plus Kennedy and Melky. And I know Yankee fans still think Hughes has a high ceiling, but maybe its just not a ceiling he can reach in the Bronx.

I'm not even close to writing Hughes off. He's like 23 and has had ZERO full seasons. He got hurt 2 times, which is a concern. But i still have faith. He's got good stuff and seemed very mature during his initial call up.

But potential ace? Come on.

The guy was the top pitching prospect in baseball 2 years ago. He's no sure thing, (far from it) but he could still be a #1. He wont turn 23 until June.

 

[Capella]

The other thing is Joba. I think people have their blinders on if they think this guy is going 180 innings next year. I think Yankee fans should be ecstatic with 120 innings and that's what...20, 21 starts? That's still another 10-12 starts you have to fill in. Add in Sheets or Burnett and that could be another 5-10 starts you miss out on. Plus you have Wang coming off an injury. Even if you have CC out there every 5th day there are so many gaps to fill.

 

[Michael Brown]

agree with Brown here. A month into last year, we were seeing a whole lot of "ROFL at the Yankees for not getting Santana for Hughes and Kennedy". Now, a year later (albeit a terrible year by yankee standards) the yankees have gotten a comparable player for almost the same money and no players.

I'm not saying that its gonna work out. It could be a bad deal on the backend. But i think CC is worth the risk. The Yankees will be ridiculed and people will take pot shots at them no matter what. (and some of them are deserved) We Yankee fans are used to it.

Err...sorry to burst the Yankee fans bubble but Santana > Sabathia and they're paying him more for a longer period plus they give up some draft picks.I'm also that the Yankee's somehow overpaying 50 million is a good thing. Even the Yankee's are having trouble selling their premium seats and some of the boxes in the new stadium. They don't have an unlimited budget and that 50 million could go to...oh finding a competent CF or 1B.

All passing on Santana did was make their old line-up a year older and probably cost them the playoffs this past year.

If the Red Sox made this signing, the entire popluation of New England would be a furious circle jerk right now. The national media would be tongue bathing Theo Epstein and Sox fans would be throwing out sabremetric stats proving the worth of sabathia. No matter what any Yankee fan says here, they'll be ridiculed with smilies, economic generalizations and cherry picked stats. (although i think the playoff histories have obvious merit, even though they are fairly small)Lets say the Yankees had stuck to their initial offer (6 for 140) and he went to Anaheim for the same price. What would Yankee bashers say then? I've got a pretty good idea. I'm sure it would go something like "You have a bottomless pit of money and you werent willing to fork over an extra 2 mil a year? ROFL. Good luck with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation!!"

Yankee fans cant "win" nor are we expecting to. Hell, i agree that Santana is better than Sabathia. But I'd MUCH rather have Sabathia and Hughes' potential than Santana. I'm sure an endless barage of 's and 's are headed my way for that statment, but whatever. I'm over it.

I've never agreed more with a post than I do with this one.As far as the postseason stats, for years I was told (on this board) that there was no correlation between A-Rod's postseason failures and some sort of trend. It was too small a sample size, and what I should look at is regular season numbers. So now, three years later, I'm told that Sabathia's postseason career of five starts is suddenly a large enough sample size to determine that he's not close to Santana in playoff ability? Based on 5 games? That's silly.

I'm not saying he's been a great, or even good, playoff pitcher. All I'm saying is that there is no measurable stat that can show me Santana is all that much better than CC. If you want to use a 5 game sample size in which neither player has been all that effective, by all means go for it but I'm not sure it's the slam-dunk winner you think it is.

I fail to see the huge discrepancy between the two guys, and like TLEF says above, give me CC and a potential ace down the line over just Johan every time. Anyone who disputes that is just being ridiculous.

Red Sox fans, would you rather have CC and Buchholz or just Santana?

Tiger fans, CC and Porcello or just Santana?

Rays fans, CC and Wade or just Santana?

You get the point.

That's all well and good, but you gave up a year of Santana (and probably the playoffs) to save the potential of Hughes (or whoever) becoming good while giving up a first round pick this year while overpaying for Sabathia. It's not being ridiculous to say that I'd rather have had Santana this year especially since they still look like they're going to sign one of Burnett, Lowe, and Sheets making whatever young stud at best a #5 starter. All Cashman's doing now is chasing his tail after blowing the Santana trade.Having said they need to address the offense more than the pitching.

First, I said on this board last year that I was willing to give up a year of the playoffs to save the potential of Hughes. I think Shady (now Blackjack) agreed with that.This past year, I don't think they make the playoffs even WITH Santana. The Mets didn't. And the Yankee season had a lot of issues, issues that Johan alone wasn't going to fix.

For about the millionth time, the Yankees KNEW that passing on Johan was going to look bad in year one. There weren't many people who thought Hughes would ever be as good as Santana, but the fact that he could come close while doing it for $22 million less was enticing. And considering this is one year into a six year deal (that will become seven once Santana's option vests), I don't see any way in hell that you can call this trade a win or a loss one way or the other. Most people who paid attention last offseason said that it's going to take years to determine if this was a good or a bad move to pass on Johan. The knee-jerk reaction around here is astounding.

 

[Sammy3469]

Supposedly the Sabathia can opt out after the third year:

The deal has an opt-out clause after the first three years, which are worth $69MM. The 31 year-old Sabathia will make his opt-out decision after the 2011 season with four years, $92MM remaining on the deal. He would have to buck the opt-out trend (or renegotiate) to make this more than a three-year, $69MM deal for the Yankees. That is not necessarily a bad thing for them.

 

[dparker713]

Supposedly the Sabathia can opt out after the third year:

The deal has an opt-out clause after the first three years, which are worth $69MM. The 31 year-old Sabathia will make his opt-out decision after the 2011 season with four years, $92MM remaining on the deal. He would have to buck the opt-out trend (or renegotiate) to make this more than a three-year, $69MM deal for the Yankees. That is not necessarily a bad thing for them.

If this turns into a 3 year 69M deal, this is a great signing.

 

[Capella]

Pretty sure at that point in his career he's not going to leave 92 million on the table.

 

[blackjack23]

The other thing is Joba. I think people have their blinders on if they think this guy is going 180 innings next year. I think Yankee fans should be ecstatic with 120 innings and that's what...20, 21 starts? That's still another 10-12 starts you have to fill in. Add in Sheets or Burnett and that could be another 5-10 starts you miss out on. Plus you have Wang coming off an injury. Even if you have CC out there every 5th day there are so many gaps to fill.

In effect Hughes will be our #6 starter

 

[Sammy3469]

Pretty sure at that point in his career he's not going to leave 92 million on the table.

It would go against history...if he pitches well the next 3 years, he'll opt out and get someone to extend the contract until he's 37-8, if not the Yankees will be on the hook for the rest.

 

[Capella]

6th? What's the rest of the staff?

CC

Wang

Joba

Burnett/Lowe/Sheets

?

Who am I missing? Am I forgetting someone?

 

[blackjack23]

Supposedly the Sabathia can opt out after the third year:

The deal has an opt-out clause after the first three years, which are worth $69MM. The 31 year-old Sabathia will make his opt-out decision after the 2011 season with four years, $92MM remaining on the deal. He would have to buck the opt-out trend (or renegotiate) to make this more than a three-year, $69MM deal for the Yankees. That is not necessarily a bad thing for them.

If this turns into a 3 year 69M deal, this is a great signing.

If he shows any sign of slowing down after 3 yrs he wont opt out and the Yanks will be stuck with 4 yrs. If hes still good after 3 yrs he may opt out and Yanks will have to make a decision at that point.

 

[Sammy3469]

6th? What's the rest of the staff?CCWangJobaBurnett/Lowe/Sheets?Who am I missing? Am I forgetting someone?

They want to sign 2 of Burnett/Lowe/Sheets...please keep up with the spending spree...TIA

 

[Capella]

Oh yea. Duh.

Geez. That's a lot of dough and rotation spots about to be tied up in a lot of question marks.

If they do sign 3 FA pitchers you're pretty much slamming the door on Kennedy for sure and probably Hughes too right? Those guys aren't going to develop while being "6th starters". It doesn't work like that.

 

[TLEF316]

Oh yea. Duh.Geez. That's a lot of dough and rotation spots about to be tied up in a lot of question marks.If they do sign 3 FA pitchers you're pretty much slamming the door on Kennedy for sure and probably Hughes too right? Those guys aren't going to develop while being "6th starters". It doesn't work like that.

agreed. I think they should roll with Hughes as the #5. At this point, i dont like any of the options all that much. If Sheets was willing to take a 2 year, id rather have that than burnett for 5. But it a huge risk either way. Lowe should be a non-option with the yankee infield.

 

[wadegarrett]

Oh yea. Duh.Geez. That's a lot of dough and rotation spots about to be tied up in a lot of question marks.If they do sign 3 FA pitchers you're pretty much slamming the door on Kennedy for sure and probably Hughes too right? Those guys aren't going to develop while being "6th starters". It doesn't work like that.

agreed. I think they should roll with Hughes as the #5. At this point, i dont like any of the options all that much. If Sheets was willing to take a 2 year, id rather have that than burnett for 5. But it a huge risk either way. Lowe should be a non-option with the yankee infield.

What are the chances they move Joba back to the pen?

 

[blackjack23]

6th? What's the rest of the staff?CCWangJobaBurnett/Lowe/Sheets?Who am I missing? Am I forgetting someone?

Pettitte

 

[blackjack23]

Oh yea. Duh.Geez. That's a lot of dough and rotation spots about to be tied up in a lot of question marks.If they do sign 3 FA pitchers you're pretty much slamming the door on Kennedy for sure and probably Hughes too right? Those guys aren't going to develop while being "6th starters". It doesn't work like that.

agreed. I think they should roll with Hughes as the #5. At this point, i dont like any of the options all that much. If Sheets was willing to take a 2 year, id rather have that than burnett for 5. But it a huge risk either way. Lowe should be a non-option with the yankee infield.

What are the chances they move Joba back to the pen?

If he stays healthy? None. IMHO if he gets hurt one more time he'll be moved back into the pen permenantly

 

[TLEF316]

Oh yea. Duh.Geez. That's a lot of dough and rotation spots about to be tied up in a lot of question marks.If they do sign 3 FA pitchers you're pretty much slamming the door on Kennedy for sure and probably Hughes too right? Those guys aren't going to develop while being "6th starters". It doesn't work like that.

agreed. I think they should roll with Hughes as the #5. At this point, i dont like any of the options all that much. If Sheets was willing to take a 2 year, id rather have that than burnett for 5. But it a huge risk either way. Lowe should be a non-option with the yankee infield.

What are the chances they move Joba back to the pen?

Cashman was on Mad Dogs new show a few weeks back and he stated that Joba would be a starter from Spring Training on. Hope he stays healthy.

 

[David Yudkin]

6th? What's the rest of the staff?CCWangJobaBurnett/Lowe/Sheets?Who am I missing? Am I forgetting someone?

Pettitte

Pettitte has been talking to the Red Sox and refuses (for now) to budge on what he made last year (IIRC $16 million). Guess we'll have to see how much it will take for him to play somewhere (with NY still the favorite).

 

[David Yudkin]

Yanks are also rumored to be close to signing Lowe at 4 years for $66 million. IMO, that's a lot to pay for a 35 year old who had an ERA of 5.00 over his last two years as a starter in the AL.

 

[INRIhab]

Good job CC. You are a first-class, greedy coward. Hope the pinstripes have the slimming effect you covet.

Uhh...seriously?On another note, I really wish the Yankee Tax, errr Luxury Tax was a dollar-for-dollar tax.

 

[Capella]

16M/4 years for Lowe with that infield in that division would be a Zito-esque failure.